Pretty slow around here. Lets see if we can get some discussion going. Not sure if I have ever posted these before or not. A NRA sporter 30-06 and a 1922 converted to Hornet, both in the original Armory stocks as restyled by Tom Shelhamer. The one with scope bases is the 1922. The magazine conversion in this Hornet looks identical to those by G&H. I suspect that either Niedner was doing them for G&H, or G&H was doing them for Niedner. The 03 is the cleanest pre-war rifle I have ever seen. The stock, blueing, and checkering look like they came off of Shelhamers bench last week. I do not think the rifle was ever taken afield. The blue is Niedners beautiful rust blue, while the 1922 still has the armory blue, and looks to have been used a little. I still remember the gun show when my Dad found them, I was probably about 10 years old at the time. He traded a Model 21 Trap and $200 cash for the pair of rifles. The picture makes the LOP look shorter than it is. Actual LOP is about 13.25 which is about as long as you can get out of the roiginal stock when using a Niedner plate.





Regards,
John

John-
I agree those are as nice as you will see. I have always thought that a "armory" collection would be very worthwhile and sub-category unto itself. Whether Sedgley, G&H, or others they are mostly always attractive. I missed a 7m/m G&H armory much to my frustration. I glad we can buy more than we need because those two are really all anyone really needs! Very, very nice.

Gary

"He"??? And is there provenance for the Shelhamer work??

Love both, btw! Especially the 03.

Sorry, I guess in my editing that little detail got left out. The "he" is my dad. When I was a kid I would tag along with him to all the small local shows. Back when they were worth going to.

Provenance, well the rifles are not marked, and we have no history on them before Dad acquired them. So no, none other than the quality and style of work. I've seen enough of his work that I am convinced that the are Shelhamers work, but no I can't prove it. Fortunatly, with most of this old stuff, who did it has less to do with the value than the quality and condition. Good work is good work, and the name on it does not really carry much added weight. If anything, I have noticed that Shelhamers work generally does not bring the money that some of the other makers work does. It could be that most of his work is rather simple, you do not generally find Shelhamer guns with a lot of fancy engraving or other bling. They are generally working guns, just executed very well.

I wish I had some better pictures of these 2 rifles to show more of the details, but some of the things that convince me that they are Shelhamer work are.
1. The checkering, nobody checkered quite like Shelhamer. Remember, these guys made there own checkering tools, so no 2 are exactly the same. The height of the diamond, and the length to width ratio are unique to each builder, and they frequently had a few patterns that they favored.
2. The sling swivels are found on nearly all Niedner guns are the same.
3. The grip cap. I have shelhamer guns from the mid 30's all the way up to one of his last in the mid 60's. They all have the same horn grip cap.
4. The little brass washer around the forend screw. Again, every shelhamer gun that I have seen has the same one. He must have bought a million of them when he started and was trying to use them all up. And I have only seen on other early custom rifle with the same one.
5. The Schnabel forend tip. Yes, others used one, but very few did them quite like Shelhamer did, and probably about 50% of his rifles have it.

I hope this answered the question. To me Shelhamers work is one of the easier to identify. He has a lot of unique identifiers, and he very early developed his own style and did not vary to much from that. This is particularly true after he left Niedner. His post war stuff is almost cookie cutter they are so similar to one another.

Thanks,
John

Thanks for the lesson, John and for taking the time to tell us. Very fine rifles they are, their simplicity shows great character.

I'm presuming you have Shelhamer rifles with his mark as well? I've only seen the one Krag with his stamp under the buttplate but have often heard that the stamp might be in the barrel channel. No argument with your identifiers or opinion but I must say that there is no substitute for a maker's hallmark being the last word.
I too wish you had more photos of the details you describe.

Yes, feel free to post more pics!
Shelhamer would be my guess for them if I'd just lain eyes on them, just because of the schnabel. Love the way he worked it on both of these service stocks.
Any Niedner marks?

Here is the Shelhamer collection showing the little washer that all of the rifles I have seen have used.



And a close up.


And the horn grip cap that most of his rifles have.


The 2 rifles in the original post are not marked in any way. The two rifles immediately above with the chin strap are both post-war guns and have the T. SHELHAMER stamp under the buttplate as well as a number. The other 2 are Niedner era guns and do not have the stamp. The mauser has a Niedner barrel and is so marked, and the single shot is not marked and has been rebarreled. The far right rifle is a very late gun, stocked in 1964, and likely one of his last stocks. The checkering is very fine, and was done with an electric checkering tool. It is also not up to the quality of the other rifles in my opinion.

Regards,
John

John, I enjoy and appreciate your photos and description. Would it be accurate to call the "little brass washer" a counterbored and knurled brass escutcheon? I pictured something entirely different from your description.
It is easy to see the similarities of the grip caps, escutcheons and checkering.
Thanks, Steven

I can add a little info to the brass "Shelhamer tie-down" story as I researched this very item for many years. I lived in Michigan and several friends and I collected his rifles. We always found these identical tie-downs on his rifles... with two exceptions. The first was rifles that were stamped D. Kilpatrick under the butt-plate and looked for all intensive purposes to be Shelhamers. These did not have the tie-down however were identical in lines (and workmanship) to Shelhamer. I had almost given up on understanding this when, by a stroke of luck, I came across a "D. Kilpatrick" living near Dowagiac Michigan. I was able to contact Dennis' daughter who told me the story. Dennis and Tom were very close personnel friends. Dennis was a local gunsmith who did very nice work and catered to the target/benchrest set. He did have some of his clients want him to build sporting or hunting rifles and he would do these in conjunction with Shelhamer who taught him inletting and shaping (I've taken two of these apart and they are beautifully inletted). From what I learned, these were done in Shelhamer's basement while the two worked together. Because Kilpatrick was a accuracy buff, he would begrudgingly make the concession to a tight barrel channel but not to a tie-down, so on his rifles they were to the best of my knowledge, never present. as a point of interest all the Kilpatrick rifles were checkered by Shelhamer. From what I gathered talking further with others still alive that knew Dennis (and Tom), he made something like a dozen rifles with Shelhamer designed stocks and all are stamped like Shelhamer did. These are lovely rifles and add something to a Shelhamer collection. Whenever you see what you are sure is a Shelhamer but doesn't have a tie-down you're probably looking at a Kilpatrick.

I mentioned two exceptions... until 3 years ago, I was sure that no Shelhamer went out that did not have his brass escutcheon present. On this very forum was a Shelhamer rifle, properly stamped with its number under the Niedner butt-plate and no tie-down. It was a quintessential Shelhamer with chin-strap, Schnabble fore-end and O'Dell pattern checkering (also the typical rich French walnut he used and I envy). I've looked at more than 50 Shelhamers and this photo came as a complete surprise! I guess this reinforces the old adage "never say never".

Thought you might find this interesting.

Yes, that would be very accurate, but I could not remember how to spell escutcheon even close enough for the spell checker to recognize it.

John

Yes, very interesting, thank you. The story I had heard was that Shelhamer did the stock work for Kilpatrick but it sounds like you have the straight scoop on it. I have seen one Kilpatrick gun, but I do not recall if it had the escutcheon or not.

John

Would it be accurate to call the "little brass washer" a counterbored and knurled brass escutcheon?

I've always assumed they are grooved or serrated on the OD rather than knurled, but, of course, never knocked one out to see.

I've never knocked on out either, but they do look to me like straight knurling, or lengthwise grooves around the outside diameter.

Looking through some pictures and found a rifle without one. This is one of the Russel Smith rifles, and the screw is in an ivory escutcheon. There is a matching ivory grip cap that is otherwise the same as the other rifles.




John

Terry, the little thingy you are interested in is a "drive in with threads" very similar to what Krieghoff has used on the K-32 and the K-80 forends for about fifty years now. It is a great gunsmithing item and can probably be bought from Krieghoff USA.

I notice (forgive me) that Thomas S. attempted to perfect the fleur de lis and failed. A true artist would have stuck to the point and ribbon patterns.

Thanks John & eddie.
I'm flying blind on identifying Shelhamer work and now have some particulars to look for. If I find one, I'll knock out the little brass washer and tape a pic.
Best,
Steven

Great post! Great guns and great info!

John, Is that one of those "little brass washers"?

This one is marked AO Neidner on the barrel but the barrel band attaches to a sling swivel base.
Somebody put a pad on it so we will never know if it was marked under the butt plate.




Shelhamer?

Yep, that looks like it.

I never really thought much of Krag sporters, but after looking over Marks collection at the Amoskeag auction I have a new appreciation for them. The are some mighty fine looking Krags on that sale.

John

Hard to tell. The grip does not look like his work at all, but the bottom view of the forend sure does, and the comb nose fluting could be. The inletting sure looks to be top notch whoever did it. What is the serial number of the receiver? If it is a Shelhamer stock, I'd guess it to be an early one that was refinished and the white line spacers added at a later date. But that is just a guess. Sure looks like it was a well built rifle. I think getting rid of the white line under the grip cap, and a new pad would do wonders for that rifle.

John

The A O Niedner mark rather than Niedner Rifle Co means it is early.

I set up to make a few of these on my small, bench top horizontal mill, milling them straight using the dividing head and then counter boring them for the screw as needed and then parting them off. They are not hard to make at all and of course another opportunity to fake a Shelhamer. John's "identifiers" are well thought out observations and I hope I can remember them. This is a great thread!Gary

gasgunner,


The Springfield serial # is 1229385. 701 is stamped on the barrel(by Niedner, I guess).

Here is an old thread on this gun: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...8290#Post148290

I was curious if you thought this was a Shelhamer stock.

Thanks for the link. Looks like we came to the conclusion the last time that it likely was, but had been refinished at some time. I see no reason to change that opinion. Regardless of who did it, the workmanship displayed in the fitting of the stock make it a rifle to be proud to own.

John