I'm thinking about restocking one of these and considering the addition of a rib on the barrel as a way of mounting a better set of sights and also giving a little more heft to the barrel balance. Is there a source for a rib that could be adapted to this use?

Simmons will install an original looking solid rib with the original Winchester matting pattern. This would be an interesting conversion.

I've thought about this quite a bit Bill. The barrel is awfully small for a solid rib and it would have to be considerably scaled down from shotgun size.

Likewise the stock is very small and proportions would be tricky. The Owen Remington gives an idea of the challenge, the stock almost looks too big for the action. And, what to do with the tiny for end??

I would spend considerable time on paper before I made any decisions.

I've got a 61 and they are even more fun to shoot than a 39A. Both are stupid accurate at iron sight ranges.
All, IMO...

I agree, Steven. I own 3 Winchester M61 .22- one is a later .22Mag- all are original and with std open irons- a solid rib looks fine on a Model 12 pumpgun, but on a M61 just to add a base for a scope. If it were my M61, and it ain't- I'd leave it alone and buy a used Ruger M77 .22LR- I have one with a Leupold 6X scope in the Ruger rings, with a tuned trigger- and the tree rats run and hide for a week hand running when ever I bring that into the woods come a late October afternoon-

I don't have a 61 around here but if I remember correctly the barrel is a lot smaller diameter than the receiver and there is a step-down. Have you considered a quarter rib? That might look good with a man-sized stock.

I went through my files and do not have any pictures of custom 61's. I do have one of a Shelhamer Remington 12, it belongs to a member here so maybe he can post it.

I think Winchester put a rib on a couple smoothbore 61's during their production. Maybe it was just that they matted the top of the bbl. Confused myself again....
Should be in that book on the Winchester slide action 22's that features the 61.

A 1/4 rib would look nice I think.

I believe that book was written by Ned Schwing. I didn't know the M61 was offered in a smooth (Rutledge?) bore. I can also see some slight resemblance between the M61 and the M42 in .410 bore. Now a solid rib on a M42- like a pinkie ring and an Armani suit on a "Goombah"--

The barrel is small for a rib unless I can find a low, narrow one to use. Does anyone here have contact information for the shop that makes ribs on the old Winchester equipment? The issue of stock proportions will take careful planning. I have in mind something along the lines of a British rook rifle, slender overall with a narrow waist. This all came about when I ended up with some very nice, but slightly undersize, English stock blanks.

If you will measure the barrel diameter of your 61, I will measure a Model 42 barrel for you. The standard Simmons solid rib looks great on a Model 42. The other vendor who does Winchester matting is the Gun Works of Central New York, a pretty good shop, I have heard. Both have websites. Simmons actually installed their 1/4" ventilated rib on some few smoothbore Model 61s. They are actually in early Simmons catalogs.

OK, Bill, the Model 42 barrel is .600 through the body and .560 at the very muzzle. The 1/4" rib looks fine on that gun, sell for big bucks. Simmons is the only place I know that actually installs the solid rib. Bill Murphy in MD.

Micheal is right. There is a step down from the receiver, which would line up the receiver with the rib just fine. I like quarter ribs, but the Simmons rib would look great too. Maybe MP would measure the butt height on the Owen Model 12 Remington. I believe that stock is oversize but in proportion. My little custom 61 has a 5" high butt and a hand filling grip and looks great also. Both the Owen Model 12 and my Model 61 were built with the small prewar type forend and look better than the long one.

The M61 was made in 3 different smooth bores actually. The original Routledge bore first.
Winchester then designed their own version of the counterbored system and used that next (not having to pay Fred anything for his design). It was simply some small changes in the counter bore diameter and depth.
Then lastly they made the M61 22 Shot with just a straight thru one diameter smooth bore bbl.

I think Simmons was used to put the rib on what ever smoothbore 61s the factory did make. Those were Vent Rib style and IIRC they extended back onto the recv'r like the same would on a 12 or 42.
I wish I could find my books.

The bbl address roll mark on 61's is off to the left side on the round bbls (left oblique flat on oct),,so if you are able to get a narrow enough solid rib, you can by-pass those markings and leave them as is on the bbl.
A narrow, low solid rib would look nicest anyway.
Some of the M61s have the front edge of the recv'r severly chamfered. Running a squared edge rib up against it may leave it unsightly unless fitted very low ,below the chamfer.
The other way is to build up that small top portion of the frame to elliminate the chamfer and have a nice square flat for the rib to engage the frame front surface with.

I don't know who's making ribs that would look right.
I have seen some made from M/L under bbl rib stock. The M/L rib flipped over and the ramrod groove becomes the bbl side of it.
Lots and lots of fitting & reshaping work and heavy when done. Depends on what you're looking for.
The older hollow rib M/L under rib might be an easier go of it. Lighter for sure. I don't see much of it sold anymore though.
Fitting up to a 61 bbl for either would be much easier than say a center fire bolt rifle bbl with it's contours.
Just some thoughts

...I like the 42 w/a solid rib ! I've got 2 of them :>)

A badly worn or bubbaed 61 might be fun to customize, all right. But a nice one is just too nice a gun to mess with, IMO--the thing just about defines "ergonomics"!

Different sights, sure, especially if your eyes are going south, like mine.

RWTF, the 61M was a great IDEA! But I've never found one that shoots as well as I'd like it to. My present one shoots .22WRF pretty well. .22WRM not so well, and I've tried all the foreign and domestic makes and models, including pricey German RWS, and CA "Green" unleaded. I keep it because it's so pretty.

The breech end of the solid rib can be filed to shape before installation to exactly match up with any receiver irregularities. The height of the rib can also be lowered by filing the base. It could be a very neat installation with some attention to detail. By the way, the front of the receiver on my gun is a square edge. It is early prewar. Bill, you have given me some ideas for my Remington Model 121 Routledge, which is not in collectable condition.

I have had exactly the same experiences with my M61 .22Mag- they just don't seem to have the accuracy of the std. .22LR series, whether pre-WW11, or post WW11- I've had mine for some time, and probably paid a tad too much for it, but that old "Pre-1964" fever sometimes gets aholt of a feller- Another reason I prefer the M61 over other WRA .22 repeaters- to the best of my knowledge, it was never "copied" by some cheapo Brazilian mfgr. as were the Models 1890, 1906 and also the M63--

Yes you could match up the end of the rib to any chamfer or irrgularity on the recv'r.
But if you do anything other than a nice straight joint at the face of the bbl & rec'vr..you'll never get the bbl off of the frame again w/o shearing any rib overhang. Maybe you won't see a need to pull the bbl,,but making the bbl and recv'r a permanent assembly,,,no.

A certain rib putter onner was great at splicing the first base for the vent rib into the front of the breech extension of the M42 and M12. The breech extension is now a permanent attachment to the bbl. More than a few of the upgrades floating around that are put together like that.



The Winchester 'solid' rib is hollow. You fit them by filing the legs of the rib, then bevel the inside edges to match the bbl for a good solder joint and a flush fit on the outside..
Depending on how high you want it to sit, the top surface may be just barely above the rounded surface of the bbl. The width of the rib will determine how much of a side flat of that rib you see. The wider the rib,,the more side flat.
If you place the center top of the rib even with the rounded top surface of the frame,,the side edges of the rib at the frame are outside the frame arc. A very narrow rib can be set higher than a wide rib. Neither looks good with the edges of the rib poking out along the front edge of the rounded frame. So the top surface just naturaly has to sit below it. How much depends on rib width ,the arc of the rcev'r and any chamfer or rounded front edge that you try to avoid.

They look good through!

I don't know if this will help the discussion or not, but here is a link to a Remington Routledge with a vent rib

22 vent rib

The linked vent rib Model 121 has the very early Simmons rib matting pattern. I am guessing late forties to mid fifties. By the way, the Simmons rib installation on the Model 61 Winchester was not a catalogued Winchester item in my experience. It is an item offered in the Simmons catalogs of the mid to late fifties and extremely few were built. The 121s would be a neat buy at a bit less than half the asking price.

Kutter, your comments are very pertinent. However, the rib need not conform to an irregular receiver on some 61s. My early prewar gun has a receiver that is absolutely square to the barrel with no steps. I don't have a later gun to examine. If a rib were installed on my gun flush with the receiver, the barrel could still be removed. I think the curve of the receiver matching to a 1/4" rib is a non issue. There isn't much of a curve in a quarter inch. Thanks for your great post. Bill Murphy

I've been trying to work with a way to have a scale in the background for folks who wanted measurements. A friend brought by some mylar with 1" squares on it. I have been experimenting with trying to get the squares in focus and no shadow. Have a ways to go to get this perfected. Suggestions welcome and anyone want this full size I'll email it to you.

Hi Michael,
I welcome you working on getting a measurement scale. One suggestion you may want to consider would be to mark one of the main horizontal line darker. This would be the datum. Then when taking the picture you might want to align as best as possible with a known gun feature, possibly the center line of the bore. This would help get a true perspective of the measurements to be taken. You may then want a vertical datum line that say locates at the trigger or another known gun feature. Just my thoughts

Hmmm. I just want more pictures of prewar custom pump .22s.

Darken the contrast.

Would it make sense to trace the stock onto the grid paper?

I have never seen a picture of the butt of the Owen Model 12 Remington. I would like to know what kind of butt treatment that gun has. It seems to be a Neidner style buttplate.

Kutter- no offense meant here, but your comment about the Winchester solid milled rib option sent me to my "The Winchester Model 12- One of a Thousand-- by George Madis- Now this ONLY applies to the Model 12's- page 53-- "Winchester's solid ribs were USUALLY made as a part of the barrel, a milling job that required a great deal of time by expert machinists"--

I don't believe that this much detail about the solid ribs was mentioned in the much later published book by Dave Riffle- However, I believe the special order option for a factory installed solid rib ran until about 1957-58.

I now have 9 Model 12's in my working collection- a 1955 field grade 12 gauge 28" mod solid rib-milled on the top or matted if you like. But I also bought a 1933 Model 12 Field grade 20 gauge- solid rib with originally a 30" full choke barrel, but the former owner's son had it out rabbit hunting- and you guessed it- he tripped, got the muzzle in a snowbank- never cleared the bore- and shortened that 30" to about 26.75"- he kept the expanded remained, the solid rib stayed intact while the rest of the barrel had peeled back like a banana- I have that section- and both the remainer of the now cyliner choked barrel plus the "frag grenade section" show the steel of the rib intact to the top of the barrel's radius- If the rib was indeed soldered on, I should think it would have peeled off with the rest of the barrels' circumference.

I mounted that burst shard of 4140 barrel steel on a display board, over the "steel tomb" gun safe down in my "Man Cave" next to the 1979 era Sturm Ruger ad with the great poem "If a sportsman true you'd be"--

Typical German one without the trapdoor.

Runs, Madis has been wrong before, and he is wrong on the solid ribs.

Strange, my "cyclopian "friend", but George Madis worked for WRA for over 30 years hand running, and to my way of thinking, he must know just a little bit more than either you or I do about Model 12's-- And the 20 gauge with the rib that was "circumcised"- no traces of silver solder, and the metal of the rib is solid, like a railroad rail. Go figure that!!~!

Don't know, never cut one off. Maybe at some point, they were forged with the barrel like a Remington. Every author after Madis explained how they were soldered on. Maybe you could post a picture of the ends of the circumcized rib.

I'm with eightbore on this one and would love to see a pic of you detonated barrel section.

Stephen- I think you meant to write "Love to see a picture of YOUR detonated Barrel section". Ain't never gonna happen. I don't know you from the proverbial "Adam's off ox, so no explicit offense intended on my part in the following-- as you may well not know, or need to know, the "loggerheads" Mr. eightbore came to some time ago on the Pregnant Gophers Cornholing Association Gruppen- suffice it to say then- any "friend of my enemy becomes an enemy of mine" and we'll let it go at that, Sir.

I will give you the "semi-benefit of the doubt" and assume you are not directly implying that I am an liar, as Herr Murph Da Surf allegedly did regarding my possession of two 12 gauge high grade Parkers and a "Bogarted AH Fox HE Super-Fox, a few years ago. As I do not know you, I'll just write it off to your having a "Doubting Thomas syndrome" nand in balance, not a bad concept, if you agree, as I do, with the late POTUS Ronnie Reagan's-- "Trust is OK, but always cut the cards".

Are you a Winchester collector perhaps? I am, and I have studied them ever since I was in High School. Do you have a machinist or tool and die background, as I do, thanks to my late Grandfather, where I worked since age ten in his machine shop just off Canal St. in the Queen City. Do you perhaps know basic ferrous and non -ferrous welding, brazing and soldering techniques- as I do. I made my living welding to ASTM and API codes, and I know what both soft solder and silver solder look like as residual traces on heat treated AISI 4140 and later rust blued steel- do you???

Mr. Eightbore does know Parkers, I will surely grant him that- he has been collecting them since he was in the grade school years apparently. But Winchesters- both the Models 1912, M12 and M21-- are NOT "Carriage Bolted Hinged Pin doubleguns"-- and comparing the metallurgy of a SAE 1018 mild steel drop forged receiver that has been "double fitted" to the AISI 4130 drop forged and heat treated before final assembly of either a Model 12 or a Model 21 is not quite the same.

So, sorry to not be able fill your request Mr. Stephen, but you will see Hillary Clinton pick Monica Lewinski for her 2016 running mate before I will EVER post any picture of any gun or gun parts not only here, but on any Internet website. Too many unscrupulous "trolls" looking for information they have no legitimate need to know to take that chance. I hope you understand my position- sort of my bounce on the old Chinese proverb/curse/warning: "May you live in interesting times" RWTF

You miss spelled my name, twice...

I have the Madis Model 12 book also & on page 53 he states "Winchester's solid ribs were usually made as a part of the barrel, a milling job that required a great deal of time by expert machinists." Note the word "usually".

I've often wondered about that statement because of the cost of machining & finishing such a complex rib & barrel assembly as compared to what Winchester charged.

To use 1953 for example the retail cost of a standard plain bbl Model 12 was $93.85 & the cost of a standard gun with the solid rib (matted rib as described by Winchester) was $110.35. That is a 17.5% increase in price which is significant but still less what I would think the complexity of the job would add.

Also I just got done looking at the muzzle of a 12 ga solid rib model 12 produced in 1953 using a magnifying glass & while it is an excellent job, you can absolutely tell that on this particular gun the barrel & rib are two separate pieces but I cannot see any solder at the join line looking directly at the muzzle so I've no idea what type of solder was used by looking at it.

I'm sure someone out there has put solid rib Model 12 barrels into a hot bluing tank & if they were put together with soft solder it would be common for the ribs to come off so I'm going to make the assumption that Winchester may have used a silver solder process to attach ribs & possibly there are some solid ribs out there that were made as Madis described but I do know that the one I'm looking at wasn't.

Yes- common mistake if it were being spoken-- but as you misspelled
"miss spelled" let's call it even and start over. Your title mentions writer- gun related. The only gun related magazines I read are "The American Rifleman" (I'm a NRA life member) and Sports Afield- I am an avid rifleman, and enjoy both John Barness and USMC Colonel (Ret'd.) Craig Boddington articles. What publications in the sporting genre feature your articles, please?

Very fair points, Mr. Brittany, and well taken. The 20 gauge M12 in my possession was made in 1933, just a few years from when the "Nickel Steel" barrels were replaced by the "Winchester Proof Steel" (both high nickel and chromium content alloys)barrels and the 2 & 3/4" chamber length stamping on the magazine extension area, instead of later on, when it was marked on the left side barrel ahead of the receiver-

Also, this is a factory rib, and the factory inspection stamp W encircled- which always appears at Top Dead 12 o'clock on a plain barrel M12- was moved to aprox. 9 o'clock to allow for the top milled rib-- My guess is, the earlier pre-WW2 Model 12's may have had the rib milled from a barrel blank, post WW2 went with the soldered on version-

I have a 1949 mfg. year 3" Mag M12 with a 30" solid rib, and a 1938 3" Mag M12 with a 30" plain barrel- allowing for a slight difference in forearm shape and walnut density, I will weigh just the barrel magazine assemblies of both shotguns- on digital readout USPS scales- and if they are "dead nutz" close, I will concede that later era M12's with solid ribs may well have had them soldered in place--

You might also please re-read my original post, when I quoted George Madis page 53-- I put the word "usually" in capital letters-- as I know of WRA's "running changes" from the first Model 1912 in 20 gauge from 1912 through the last production in 1963-- We might also recall well known gun writer from Field & Stream- David Petzal--Sporting Classics May/June issue 1985--page 48: "The Model 12 owed its existence to the fact that first-class machinists worked cheaply in those days"-- amen--

I penned a rant about RWTF and his hyperbole (backed up by extensive chest thumping "bona fides") always turning otherwise collegial discussions into pissing matches, but deleted it in the interest of all. But then I couldn't resist...

Incredibly observant, like a fox with his head up his !ss, you failed to notice I've had a column titled "Custom Shop" in each issue of Sports Afield for the past 7 years… (miss spelled Barsness' name as well)
I believe the official name nick is "Fox With the Runs".

Fox with the Runs has effectively destroyed another fine thread. I am just pleased that his history on internet forums is well known to those posting here. Most, if not all, of his comments about my "doubting statements" in the past are false. Thank you for considering this possibility.

No more false than the fable about a $500 Model 21 Winchester 12 gauge allegedly bought on E-Bay- in a pig's ass-!!

First off,in this this Al Gorian Internet/ubernet world, what was once transferred by snail mail or land line telephone is now moving at the speed of Mach 3-information highway- Go to Cabelas Gun Library and have a shotgun you want to sell, I'll wager a flat of RST shotshells they will research the going asking prices on the various gun auction sites, as well as referencing the Fiejestad Blue Books extant.

Gone are the days of the uninformed rural widows selling 3 pc. 5 wt. Jim Payne fly rods with case for $50.00, and CHE 20 bore Parkers for $350.00 with LOM case--

No one in their right mind would let go of a Model 21 for that paltry sum- never even a first year Field Grade 12 with DT and Extractors and beat all to hell - A well worn field grade 12 gauge plain barrel Model 12- Heck yes at $500, but NOT a M21--

But there is a Catch-22- YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SELL FIREARMS ON E-bay- No exceptions- you can sell Gun parts (not receivers however) gun stocks, scopes, sights, gun cases, empty ammo boxes until Hell won't have it, but NOT firearms of any type- If Murph Da Surf had said he bought this "phantom M21 12 gauge" for that amount on Gun Busters, Guns 'n Roses, or whatever other auction website, and he indeed alledgely screwed some, let us say hypothetically elderly lady living on Social Security out of the fair market price for a 12 gauge M21- NRA condition and trigger(s) and or ejectors/extractors weighed into the mix- and without ever seeing this "imaginary M21" but at least $2500, then, shame on him.

When I think of this "gentleman" who grossly overplayed his exalted position as a Senior Lifer with the infamous Podunk Gap Confusion Assn. to get me, as an annual paid up member who even had an article I wrote published in the PP magazine-- I then recall the fable about the Persian ruler who had twin sons, and as they grew in age, they hated each other with a jealously and rivalry that make Cain and Abel or Romulus and Remus seem like the Katzenjammer kids-

When they were about 18-- a Genie visited the first born of the two- and sensing his disdain for his sibling- made him this promise-- "Allah be praised, Sahib--to end this rift, I will grant you one and only one wish- for whatever you want- But the catch is- whatever you wish for, your brother gets doubled your desires-

So, you wish for a harem filled with 24 nubile virgins awaiting your pleasure- then your most despised brother gets a harem with 48- etc. etc- The brother thought for a second and then said to the Genie- Alright, here's my wish- make me blind in one eye!""

Yes, I owe you -if not an apology, then, as George Patton said (at Ike's orders) an "explanation"- But first, I have shot many many red and some grey fox over the past 30 some years or more- and how a fox could manage to get his "Kopf upf sind azle" as you suggested is a real puzzlement to me- the ain't designed for that, dead or alive--and most Foxes, whether Dog or Vixen, are mainly tail section-= part of their Winter warmth pattern. And by the by, I have the 1920's Lynn Bogue Hunt poster for Ithaca Guns, showing a red fox flushing a Rooster pheasant from a snowdrift- great stuff

There is, of course, another possible play on your "fox with his head up his/her ass" but as we got sidetracked with our spelling bee-pissing contest (my bad)lets us also consider the late Redd Foxx- from Sanford and Son TV sit-com-- a perfect picture of a Foxx with his haid upside his ass indeed.

Moving right along, I apologize for Not knowing that you are indeed on the masthead with regular articles in Sports Afield- I do not subscribe, I just buy the dated issues at Barnes & Noble that have articles that interest me- like Harry Selby's Rigby .416 BA rifle- and Colonel Boddington's (USMC Ret'd) fine articles on hunting in Africa and the Mid-East. Sorry I miss-spelled John Barsness- how do you properly pronounce his surname please? It is like " The Amish built first-rate BARNS?"

The main reason I went off on you, which is my fault, is I read more into your comment about "I have to side with eightbore on this" regarding his again doubting my veracity in an internet posting, as he has done on my "behalf" many times before this contretemps we are now discussing- hence my comment about "Your being the friend of my enemy also makes you my enemy"; that was a bit "over the top" and for that I apologize.

You write a fine column indeed in Sports Afield, your style is a bit like the Icon of the magazine, IMO anyway- Thomas McIntyre. I also enjoy reading Mr. Shane Mahoney's first class column on Conservation.

I only just recently realized there is some connection between this DoubleGunShop website and the quarterly and very pricy magazine- The Double Gun Journal- the only copy I ever bought was about 2 years ago- when both Gander Mountain and Barnes & Noble booksellers were selling single copies, with Barnes & Noble being about $2.00 less than the GM rack price. I bought the issue with the great article about Hemingway in Paris as the Germans were fleeing the "City of Lights"- and a fine looking Belgium doublegun he may have owned or shot.

Harry Selby, Phillip Percival, Ernest Hemingway, Robert Ruark, Capstick, Selous, et al-- as Bogie said so well "The stuff that dreams are made of" Not grammatically correct, but with Bogie- who had the good taste to shoot a 20 gauge Grade 1E "Elsie"-- A-Ok with me. Happy Trails--

I'm glad you didn't. I never attended college, went right from HS into the USMC--I follwoed the example set by both my grandfather and father- master a skilled trade and work for an honest living- I was one of the few code certified welders in my time who held two Journeyman skilled trade cards (UAW and AFL-CIO) worked long hours and mastered TIG, MIG and of course SMAW welding in all positions, and yes, I am damn proud of that- and when some friggin "willie off the pickle boat" here posts some BS thread about welding and he obviously doesn't know his arse from his left elbow, you can damn well betcha I will "chime in" to prevent the dude asking the question from getting wrong information and messing up something due to that-- if that is "chest thumping" or hyperbole, then %$#@-it- and Now cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war- MF'r!!

Anyone have anything to contribute to the Winchester Model 61 remodel?

Just this.

I apologize for posting my comments re. the Winchester M12 solid rib & contributing to taking this thread further off track. I would however like to see a definite answer to the question of if there were some Model 12's manufactured with the rib integral with the barrel as Madis indicates and in what timeframe this was the practice. Perhaps this could be discussed in a new thread.

My thoughts on the M61 are a little different. I'm not wild about the full length rib idea. I would probably do a low 1/4 rib to match the contour of the receiver & with integral cuts for something like Talley QD rings so that a low powered intermediate eye relief scope could be mounted on the barrel along with open sights, bbl band for front sling swivel (would need to incorporate the hanger for the magazine tube) & banded ramp front sight along with nice wood & checkering. I might also shorten the tubular magazine to just in front of the slide as well.

I once saw a Model 71 Winchester .348 WCF that was set up in a similar manner & I thought it was very nice looking as well as a very functional & nice handling rifle & yes I realize we are talking about very different rifles & purposes.

Shortening the magazine sounds like a good appearance change on 61s and 121s. I like the quarter rib on a rifle, but still prefer the full solid rib for my Remington 121 shotgun.

One of the enjoyable aspects of this site is that once a thread is launched, there's no telling where it will go. But, thanks for all your responses. I've pretty much given up on the idea of a full length rib. A quarter rib seems more practical. A shortened magazine tube seems like a good ides too. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Come on Foxy fess up.....doesn't litigation represent some of your professional skills? At any rate I can put you to work (6 Tens)(Pass 2,3,4G positions) Trust me it's cold in ND and Canada though

Thank you Ken-- When I was running schedule SS- 308 water and steam piping for Townsend & Bottum in the Con Pow Co West Olive, MI Campbell Plant- and making $22.50/hr. plus overtime, two of my best friends went out to Tulsa and tested and passed API code in all positions (except the infamous "Arkansas Bell-hole" 5G inverted position)and ended up working- on the Pipeline- making $33.50/hr- 12 hours on- 12 off- 7 days working that shift- 7 days off- all clothing hoods, gloves and meals 4/24 hours- steak and eggs and home-fries and coffee- but when they went in "The World" South of Prudhome Bay area, and hit a bar and grille for some burgers and Buds-that $33.50/hr. went away really fast_also frostbite-

No litigation for me, but I have memorized both Mario Puzo's great novel "The Godfather" and nearly all of both Machiavelli's "The Prince" and Andre Dumas' "The Count of Monte Crisco", as I am an avid reader and observer, traits passed to me by my grandfather--

Speaking of litigation, what is black and tan and really looks sharp on a litigator arguing his case in Court? Answer- A Doberman. I have about as much use for lawyers as I do either prostitutes or politicians- all pretty much the same to me.

Just to make sure you have a "Lincoln Electric" background (I'm a native to the Buckeye State, home of both Lincoln Electric in Cleveland, and Hobart in Troy-- what is the name of the trade magazine Lincoln Electric publishes? Second question-- You are running 8" schedule black drainage pipe for waste water-beveled joints with a backing ring and full collared alignment clamps- the Foreman tells you to "weld 'em around the clock" with LH-70, Lincoln Electric's 7018 "Low-- Hydrogen" SMAW rod--

What diameter do you use for the root, fill and cap passes- and at what amperage setting, and do you run it AC or DC- and if DC, with which polarity. Just wanted to see if you are a lawyer, or a welder is all.

For the rest of the gruppen- 6-10's is 6010 pipe rod-- lINCOLN CALLS IT 5-P passes from root, fill and cap in 2g, 3g and 4g- are 2g- vertical down, 3g vertical up, and 4g- horizontal 5g is overhead, and 1G is flat or downhand- 6010 is AWS code for API code rod- the 60 means 60,000 psi tensile strength after the weld area is stress relieved, and 10 means- penetrating arc, as this rod can only be run set on DC reverse polarity, hard arc with light slag- fast freeze as Lincoln likes to call it--

Best rod like this for farmers who have a Lincoln AC 2225 60 AMP draw transformer welder is 6011- just as 6010, but the extra (1) means stabilizer to run on AC current, or DC either polarity-

Lincoln also makes another great API pipe rod-- called HYP-- it is a AWS 7010, 10K greater tensile- we ran it a lot in 1/8" dia for root pass work- and in the trade- we called it "Hippie Rod"--

I am heading in the right direction. I am taking the 121 shotgun to the gunsmith next Wednesday to get the mechanical problems out of the way. Then I can shoot it a bunch and decide whether the $500 rib is a good idea. I'm not that impressed with the collector value of a 121, even a Routledge bored one. For $500, Simmons will install the rib and reblue the gun. I will give instructions to be careful with the preparations.

A wise move indeed. Perhaps we can see some "before and after" pictures. When did the Routledge bore design come into the .22 rifle picture? I have never seen one, yet!!

Bill, My caveat on a quarter rib would be width. If wide enough for a Talley scope base (1/2"?) it would look like a bridge abutment on a skinny .22 barrel, IMO.

Yeah, Steve, you have to pick and choose to get the right look. Since I'm building a smoothbore, I'll be using up my supply of ivory beads and leaving the scope mounting problems to Bill F. and his Model 61.

Foxy,

Very little pipe welding for my boys...friggen union thing. Heavy plate and lots of it in 250ft diameter tanks. Manuals, automatics and "Goat's" on the floors and decks 7024 (jet rod 1G only), 6010 (5P),7018(LoHy)...We have a little machine called a "Vertimatic" that dumps molten weld deposit in a 3/4" root gap (for vertical shell welds)..weld metal is contained by brass plates on either side of the butt weld. 100% Xray on everything over 1".....a lot of preheat required these days..burr.....Lincoln loves us by the way.

Best,
Ken

SDH is correct on the width of the 1/4 rib being critical for appearance. I don't have a Winchester M61 to look at to see how a 1/2" rib would look but narrower is probably better.

I don't see why something similar in design to a Talley ring couldn't be made up to fit a narrower base (rib) given .22 LR recoil or something like a tip off ring as designed for the approximately .400" dovetail on rimfire receivers could be made up to fit a narrower dovetail cut on a quarter rib.

I don't remember exactly how wide the bases were for the old Leonard Brownell Q D rings but they were reasonably narrow & that style of ring might work well & look nice on a quarter rib.

Just throwing some idea's out as a custom M61 is something I've never thought about before but I like the concept.

Thanks Ken- nice to have a friend here who speaks the same "Lincoln Language" and their trade publication is called "The Stabilizer" Innershield welding in 1G- the old 7024 iron pwoder enhanced flux "drag rod" always seems to lay down a "banana peel off" bead when run on AC--1/4" dia. you are in the 250 AMP range-- so your local electric power grid must love your shop. I am also guessing you, and maybe only you, can understand why I get pissed just a bit at the numbnuts who think TIG welding on certain aprts (barrels) on double shotguns is a FUBAR in the making-

As do I-- very "Germanic" indeed.

I know this is an older thread but I just came across it and responded with pictures

For what it is worth there have been quite a few complete firearms sold on ebay in one fashion or another. Ebay depends on other sellers to rat out those peddling complete firearms and/or receivers and quite a few slip through. There was a guy who sold a couple of complete pistols simply by taking them apart and selling them as "parts." On the other hand they took down my listing for a 10-X rifleman's shooting glove one time because someone complained. Go figure.

Interesting that this thread popped up again. Morris Hallowell recently listed a G&H customized Winchester M61 with 1/4 rib & G&H detachable top mounts on his website www.hallowellco.com.

In general I think the 1/4 rib looks OK but I don't like the way the breech end of the 1/4 rib was handled. At the very least it should terminate flush with the back of the rear scope ring. Blending it into the receiver contour more like what was done with the Simmons ribbed 61 might be an option also.

Anyway, someone spent $$$ on a custom M61.

Putting a ventilated rib on a Model 61 is akin to having a G&H QD scope mount on a Win 1885 Lo-Wall in .22cal with octagonal barrel- a frickin' eyesore!

Run With The Fox.
In my considered opinion, the ventilated rib on the smoothbore is by no means "a frickin' eyesore!". While I'm not a Mod 12 or 42 person, the mod 61 fit out that way looks like a "class" carpenter bee gun.
Mike

Hood, is your ventilated rib Model 61 one of the ones marketed through Simmons when the guns were new or is the rib a later installation?

I can't find the 61 on the Hollowell site. I guess it's gone.

It's still there & listed under "magazine rifles" 18th rifle from the top.

http://www.hallowellco.com/griffin+howe%20custom%20Winchester%2061.htm

Is that where they get the saying "sight for sore eyes", which is usually meant as a compliment. I happen to like the looks of mine!

That rifle is for .22 shot so it will be a smooth bore.(Rutledge?) I can remember a short lived game where tiny clay targets were shot with .22's. I think they were called "Skeetos". These ribs that Simmons installed may have been for that game.

I believe the game was "MoSkeetos" or something similar, This was the Mossberg version. I remember playing it at the 50th(1960)Boy Scout Jamboree in Colorado.
Mike

Mossberg actually made miniature trap throwers to handle the tiny clay birds used in the downsized trap shoots. They had one that actually attached to the barrel of your gun, so you could launch your clay bird, and then shoot it too!
I owned a couple of the old Mossberg trap throwers, and tried one on the barrel, but it really jerked the barrel when you launched; requiring you to reacquire the target again.

Did not Orvis make some sort of thrower to toss Ritz crackers or something like that? Designed for "patio trapshooting" or some such.

1/8 " tool steel stock makes a nice solid rib for a 22 bbl I have done 2 of these on 22 shot barrels. You do need a milling machine and some basic machine skills. It will take a little time as you will need some fixturing. Think twice and do it once.

There are some throwers on line that you can throw ritz crackers with those and or butterflys make demanding targets. Mind your downrange stuff to keep out of trouble.
Good fortune with your project.

While we're on the subject, I believe that the "Routledge" (sp?) bore for the .22 shotshell was a Remington patent or trademark not used on other smoothbore .22 makes. Not sure how it differed from the others, perhaps some kind of taper bore or "long choke."

I used a Remington 510 smoothbore for finch/sparrow control in a seed processing plant I worked in in the 1950s, but don't remember it being marked "Routledge," so this barrel may have been only used on the more expensive models like the 121 and 241.

If someone here will volunteer to post some pictures, I'll send some photos of the results of this project. The rib ended up not a part of the final piece after all. Instead I made sight bases just wide enough to cover the dovetail cuts in the barrel.

The (Fred) Routledge designed 22 smooth bore was used by Winchester in their M61.
Mr Routledge designed the mini indoor trap game 'Moskeeto' in the late 30's. He also developed his 'Routledge Bore' design for .22LR Shot cartridges that threw better patterns than a standard single dia .22 smooth bore bbl.

(The following specs from Win Slide Action Rifles VolII by Schwing)
A Routledge Bore is the first 10.5" @ .217d, then the remaining 13.5" of the 24"bbl of the M61 is counter bored to .375".
The claim was an 80% pattern in a 6" circle @ 35ft.
The straight thru smooth bored (.217) bbl was said to throw patterns 3 times larger (and more).

Winchester & Routledge entered into some sort of agreement ($$) around 1939 to produce the M61 .22LR Shot with this Routledge bore in it.
Winchester quickly decided to change to it's own version of the 2 stepped bore dia and could stop paying Fred for the use of his design.
Win factory info shows drawings for their own version in 1940.

The Win version was a .217 smooth bore from the breech extending 16" forward, then expanding to a counter bore dia of .265" (instead of the Routledge .375") for the remaining 8" of the 24" M61 BBl.

M61s with original 'Routledge bore bbls are very rare as production was short lived.

The last version of the M61 .22LR Shot are the straight thru one dia (.217"d) guns. These were made starting around the mid 50's.

There are a few fake Routledges around of course. Counter boring a straight thru bored rifle, or a Winchester counterbored gun to the correct .375d & depth results in a 'Routledge bore'.
The former will be way off in ser#/production. But the latter can be argued as being in the range. Be careful as always.
Check bbl address marking and other features for era of mfg.
No records available AFAIK on these.

Simmons offered the M61 22LR Shot w/a V/R installed.
It's pictured in their 1956 catalog,pg22
.."Model 61 Slide Action Hammerless Repeating Rifle
with New Simmons Deluxe Ventilated Rib
#G6116RSVR / .22Long Rifle Shot (Smooth Bore) / $97.85"

I'm guessing they'd fit one to a customers rifle as well.

Thanks, Kutter! Great details! I wonder how the current (?) CCI shotshells with the plastic shot capsule measure up in patterning. Do they, as I've always believed, require RIFLING to break up the capsule, or will it disperse freely in a smoothbore?

Am I wrong in believing that there are Remington .22s with the special Routledge bore as well as Winchesters?

You are correct. Remington made at least 4 variations of the smoothbore on rifles such as the Model 121, one of which used the word "Routledge". Others used "smoothbore" and the term "Moskeeto".