Sure is slow around here ;-).
I am interested in learning about any items that members here my have that are marked,
A.O. NIEDNER
MALDEN, MASS.
I'm looking for different case making and bullet making dies that I don't have. I am more interested in learning about them than acquiring them. Also any that are for sale I sure would be interested.
When in Malden Niedner made several cartridges such as the .25 High-Power (Krag case necked to .25 caliber) there are many different types of these, some for base-band bullets others for a full groove diameter bullet. There was also a line of .22 High-power cartridges namely the .32-40 necked to .22 and the .28-30 necked to .22 & .23.
Along with the case making dies there were bullet making dies which I am also interest in.
All these dies are for use with a arbor press, they are many times mistakenly called "Pound Dies" they should never be hit with anything.
Some this stuff was made in Dowagiac, the majority were straight line bullet seating dies.
If folks would like to know what they have I can send some cerrosafe and you can send me back the cast.
A few of the case and bullet dies from my collection.
Michael,
For those who may be puzzled by the notation "Hamburg Tools", you might want to give a short explanation of the "Hamburg rifle".
Niedner made two Mann-Niedner 1912 (two locking lugs) rifles and three Mann-Niedner 1913 (Screw bolt locking lug)rifles.
The very first one was a 1912 that Niedner made and used. On a woodchuck hunt Niedner had to carry a woodchuck back using both hands and Dr. Baker said "That's a Hamburger making rifle" known from then on as the Hamburg rifle.
The Hamburg rifle,
Michael, To own or even possess such items makes you one very lucky S.O.B. and I mean that in the very nicest possible way. I can only dream of owning even a single tool like those you have shown.
Harry
Michael,
That scope mount is interesting. Can you comment on it. It looks like a backwards mounted Winchester A5 or perhaps a B series but the foot of the mount and the locking lever etc, are all quite unique. Did he make these too?
This is a tool-room or unfinished 1913 action with gauges and chamber cutaways.
A few years ago I tracked down all the owners of the five Mann-Niedner rifles, made a booklet of the information I had on each and sent them each a copy.
This is the second 1912 rifle left as a barreled action until Niedner gave it or sold it to Gerald Kelver. Kelver made a stock for it and then sold it. I understood that the stock was ugly and the new owner sent it Tom Shelhamer.
Michael,
That scope mount is interesting. Can you comment on it. It looks like a backwards mounted Winchester A5 or perhaps a B series but the foot of the mount and the locking lever etc, are all quite unique. Did he make these too?
The rifle has a built in Mann-Niedner scope mount taper. I as well think the mount is on backward. I believe that it needs to be turned on the mount if possible, most have two screws that you could get backwards.
Michael, To own or even possess such items makes you one very lucky S.O.B. and I mean that in the very nicest possible way. I can only dream of owning even a single tool like those you have shown. Harry
Only a little luck involved ;-) I spent years tracking this stuff down. Most was never for sale, the tool room 1913 was left to me when the owner passed.
I traced Mr. Niedner's scrap book and photo album to a small town in Indiana. I found them in the basement at the bottom of a pile of old shirts in an apple box. Later when I was talking with the owner upstairs I saw the 1912-Shelhamer propped up next to a desk. I never told anyone what I saw in the green house used as a planter ;-).
I have one case forming die, round bodied like the one shown in the second photo under the .28/30-22 marked tool. It appears to be a .25-35.
Also S & W "Bekeart" model, serial #2, with A O Niedner, Malden barrel and a Third Model S @& W single shot with that marking but no obvious modifications.
Speaking of Niedner stuff and I understand this is a long shot (pun intended) but I've been trying to locate the owner of this rifle.
First off the rifle is in Australia and I understand that it's a big place ;-), The rifle was originally made and sent there by Niedner from Malden, Mass.. It came up at auction a few years go and I was outbid, happens all the time.
The owner will be along to tell you about this.
Niedner also made some neat stuff when he was in Dowagiac.
I own the lube pump Michael has posted the picture of I can't tell you much about but it is one of 2 I've seen but the other is not marked.
Thanks Jeff
I own the lube pump Michael has posted the picture of I can't tell you much about but it is one of 2 I've seen but the other is not marked. Thanks Jeff
Jeff, does the pump have a die in it and if so for what bullet?
For Jeff,
Dr. Baker's .25-HP that Niedner built for him using a Borchardt action.
Michael, why the added knob to the, at least it looks this way, striker? Was the Borchardt self cocking retained or was that eliminated as part of the customization. Just curious.
Michael, why the added knob to the, at least it looks this way, striker? Was the Borchardt self cocking retained or was that eliminated as part of the customization. Just curious.
Because the safety was removed for the DST's Niedner made a cocking knob. As a matter of fact that's a new breech block Niedner made. A safety was never needed or used on a Schuetzen or target rifle but needed for a rifle taken into the field.
Zischang built a safety into the front of the trigger guard on his sporting rifles.
Michael, I have it packed away right now, but I know it had a .38 caliber die in it.
Jeff
Obviously , Shelhamer didn't do ugly!
Very neat stuff (as usual I have to say!).
Someday I'd like to actually list all the variations of the ".25 Krag" and get a timeline for who devised them, what dimensions and ballistics they had, and when they were developed. For a single shot guy, I think it's the nuts.
I guess I'd have to add: "What they were called"!
The first reference to the Krag shell necked down to .25-Caliber is by F. W. Mann circa 1904.
These early rifles used what I call the same method of loading as the Schuetzen rifles of the day. A breech-seated bullet in front of the case. A base-band was used to seal the bore and keep the primer from moving the bullet up the barrel.
This is a chamber cast of one of Dr. Mann's barrel (1909) having the outside case diameter the same as the bullet diameter. You just dropped a bullet into the chamber and seated a loaded case.
The name of all of the Krag to .25 caliber cartridges were called the ".25 High-Power" back in the Mann-Niedner days.
Beautiful. And I like your woodchuck impression a lot (or is that a baby seal that escaped clubbing?).
Michael, do you know who "invented" the .25 Krag Short, and more-or-less when? And was the .25 "High-Power" originally conceived as a big game or a varmint round when it got past the experimental stage? Or was it to be a combination round like the original .25 Roberts?
Michael, do you know who "invented" the .25 Krag Short, and more-or-less when? And was the .25 "High-Power" originally conceived as a big game or a varmint round when it got past the experimental stage? Or was it to be a combination round like the original .25 Roberts?
I'm not sure I even know what the "Short" version is.
Many of the these jacketed bullet high-speed cartridges were developed for use in the Schuetzen matches. They were allowed and very soon after barred.
The next place was in the chuck fields on the East coast, a few made it out West but most were back East.
The chuck hunters, Niedner & Mann included wanted fixed ammo for that. The next step was a case that would hold a base-band bullet in the last 1/16" of the case.
Many of these rifles had what we now call a "tight chamber". What I mean by this is the first case only needed to be de and re-capped, a powder charge thrown and a bullet seated.
I was very luck when a friend sold me his Niedner-Borchardt that has a perfect bore and tight chamber. Because I have Mr. Niedner's case making tools and base-band bullet tools for this it was a snap to get it to shoot.
Niedner-Borchardt .25 HP.
The summer I was working with this rifle and keeping everything in a database I notice that the groups shot last that day seem to be better.
One day after shooting I did not clean the rifle and the next day took it to the range with a fouled bore. The first shot in the cold barrel was a little high so I then fired five more. I thought that was good so shot another five-shot group on the next target. I took the rifle home, cleaned it and have not had it back out.
If I had a Niedner Borchardt or any rifle that shot like that, I would probably shoot it every day!
Beautiful rifle; stunning groups!
In 1910 a shooter wanted to shoot regular factory .25-caliber bullets without the cost of an expensive press and bullet forming tools. Niedner made new reamers for the chamber and loading tool.
Niedner’s Shop Book,
1910:
December 2nd, 1910, N.H. Roberts
Chambering Stevens rifle, venting and case hardening breech block, $10
Necking down Krag shells to .25 caliber and cutting off and reaming 200 3cents each $6.00
One loader .25 caliber $2.50 (loader in MP Collection)
Dr. Baker's rifle still does what it was made to do.
Michael, I have it packed away right now, but I know it had a .38 caliber die in it. Jeff
If you learn it's for a .38-72 Pope don't tell me ;-).
Niedner's .38-72 Pope, I got the lube pump later and made a die to fit the Niedner bullet to it.
One of the most important rifles that I have had the privilege of being it's caretaker.
Mr. Niedner's Ballard Schuetzen rifle with a Shelhamer stock no less.
In order to maintain a little creditability I won't show my smallest groups with this rifle but will post my smallest witnessed group.
That's one fine rifle and some super shooting!!!!!!! .32-40??
Are those Ideal powder dispensers of any decent value ? I picked up one years ago and it came in the mail, full of powder.
Daryl,
The Ideal and Belding&Mull measures are semi collectable...not rare in my estimation.
Regards,
Ken
That's one fine rifle and some super shooting!!!!!!! .32-40??
Yes, 32-40.
Are those Ideal powder dispensers of any decent value ? I picked up one years ago and it came in the mail, full of powder.
There are two Ideal measures the No.5 and the duplex No.6. The normal No.5 sells for around $100 many time on eBay you can find them for less.
The No.6 from $300-600 depending on who has it.
The hardest to find is the No.5 micrometer which is pictured on the left and in both of my posted pictures. They sell for about the same as the regular No.5 because I think most folks don't even notice a difference.
MP,
Out of curiosity, do you remember how hard it was to breech seat that Hoch bullet with that push style seater? Thanks.
Niedner also made some neat stuff when he was in Dowagiac.
Now you've done it, Michael. That's the one Niedner I've lusted after since 1961 when I first got a copy of Ned Robert's book! Don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight!
Regards,
Ron
MP,
Out of curiosity, do you remember how hard it was to breech seat that Hoch bullet with that push style seater? Thanks.
As a general rule if they are hard to seat they do not shoot well for me. I have no rifle that needs a mechanical bullet seater. Not sure that answered your question but if I have to force it I get another bullet.
How did the powder box work? Glass vials? My father was a watchmaker and used similar cases/boxes to hold small parts for watches. Each hole in the box held a small glass vial and its small cork stopper. But none of the vials I saw would have the capacity for a single charge of BP for Niedner's rifle.
Here is a partial answer to the question about breech-seating a Hoch bullet with a push-style seater. I have a 28-30 with a Stevens 44 action. I use a 140 grain Hoch bullet cast 1:30 or 1:25 for almost everything. I seat it with a plugged case with almost no effort. Just close the lever. You can feel the bullet engage the rifling, but the effort required is not great.
Maybe a measure of the diameter across the bullet where it has engraved by the lands and where it has not been engraved, coupled with taper and lead:tin alloy would give folks a good idea of how much force needs to be exerted (or more usefully, what diameter bullet needs to be cast).
Nice rifles indeed.
How did the powder box work? Glass vials? My father was a watchmaker and used similar cases/boxes to hold small parts for watches. Each hole in the box held a small glass vial and its small cork stopper. But none of the vials I saw would have the capacity for a single charge of BP for Niedner's rifle.
All the tools were spread thought out many lots at the Amber auction with some help from Ron Peterson and the auction people they let me go around with a box and collect all the tools and mould that fit this rifle. I never found the right nipple wrench so had to make the one shown.
After the auction I spotted, in a cardboard box, all the glass vials with stoppers for the powder box. I gave the owner my card but never heard a word back from him. In this big lot of stuff was also a box of Pope false chambers serial numbered to the rifle they were used in, I explained what they were and folks would pay good money to unite them with their rifle, never heard of these ever surfacing.
My old reliable has been delivering the goods for over 35-years. The rifle is a Niedner-Ballard stocked by my late friend John Wills. The caliber is 32-40 and throated for the Hudson bullet, even came with the correct Lyman-Hudson mould.
Sorry for the dark picture,
A little better picture.
I particularly like the table cloth… and the off-hand benchrest.
My friend, the late Crawford Hollidge (Ernest Stulshuter of Precision Shooting fame) used to use novacaine vials which he got (empty) from his dentist to store powder charges for loading at bench rest matches. He kept them in a metal file card box with a foam rubber liner in the lid, which effectively sealed them when the lid was closed. On the range, he would simply insert the neck of a primed Donaldson Wasp case in one of the vials, draw the vial out of the box and invert it and the case.
He used a Poole Tool (a variation on the Pope de-recapper) to neck size and prime his cases and a straight line bullet seater to seat the bullets. Since he used a small number of select cases for each rifle, he would simply set up and load the same cases behind the firing line between matches. His bullets were, of course, his hand made "Spin-Tru" bullets made with his own Biehler and Astles dies.
Ken and Mike, thanks for the info on the Ideals. It looks like mine is the one in the middle picture, or most common No. 5. A couple of questions.
Is the operating handle on the No. 5 in the middle picture in the proper position, or should it be closer to flush with the measure body ?
It looks like mine is missing the drop tube [brass ?]. Any place beside ebay to pick one up ?
Thanks, Daryl
Daryl,
The handle is down and bit and looks off but all the same.
Hard to find drop tubes on Ebay because most would not know what it was. Best bet is gunshow or friend with lathe.
New picture,
My friend, the late Crawford Hollidge (Ernest Stulshuter of Precision Shooting fame) used to use novacaine vials which he got (empty) from his dentist to store powder charges for loading at bench rest matches. He kept them in a metal file card box with a foam rubber liner in the lid, which effectively sealed them when the lid was closed. On the range, he would simply insert the neck of a primed Donaldson Wasp case in one of the vials, draw the vial out of the box and invert it and the case.
He used a Poole Tool (a variation on the Pope de-recapper) to neck size and prime his cases and a straight line bullet seater to seat the bullets. Since he used a small number of select cases for each rifle, he would simply set up and load the same cases behind the firing line between matches. His bullets were, of course, his hand made "Spin-Tru" bullets made with his own Biehler and Astles dies.
A few of my targets will have the notation "Glass" on them. I have a set of small glass tubes that I use for per-charging at home and then take them to the range. Many of the stick powders don't work well in any measure so I like to weigh each charge at home.
I particularly like the table cloth… and the off-hand benchrest.
Well it's a public range so I have to take a broom and clean off the bench first. Then I lay a cloth down to keep my seater and stuff from picking up crud.
When your 5'16" and using a public benchrest I sort of have to elevate things a bit so I can sit up straight ;-).
A couple of other Niedner things he made for himself. I've shot the flint-lock a lot but for some reason never shot the cap-lock.
Here is one of the road maps I use to track down some of Mr. Niedner's stuff, see something you like, go for it.
The above original photo and negative (among others) are in my collection. I believe it to be the original, as it has the handwritten notes of the photographer from his studio in Dowagiac MI, along with his stamp and signature. I've often wondered why the photo series was taken, perhaps something to do with Heddon Lures?
I have no idea who or why, have seen this picture many different places over the years. I believed Gerald Kelver used it as an illustration for one of his article on Niedner.
Anyone have any questions or something else in the Niedner line they would like to learn about?
Michael,
I have a question, did Niedner keep a book of what rifles his shop worked on and what was done to them? It would make fascinating reading as well as being an important historical document.
Harry
Michael, I have a question, did Niedner keep a book of what rifles his shop worked on and what was done to them? It would make fascinating reading as well as being an important historical document. Harry
Niedner started doing gun work full time, in Malden, Mass. around 1906 or so. After he died Mr. "B" got Niedner's shop books, note books and cash books from Malden dated 1910-1919.
About thirty years ago Mr. "R" a friend of Mr. "B"'s decided these were too valuable (historically) to be in the care of one person. Mr. "R" borrowed everything, made copies and set them to me. A few years ago Mr. "B" died and NOTHING of Niedner's was found. If it was I never learned about it.
Niedner then relocated to Dowagiac, Michigan and for the years 1920-1940 the shop books are missing. I believe that many of the records were held by Thomas Shelhamer, they have been saved but are not available for study. I don't know if they every will be, I intervened and stopped them from heading to the dump but beyond that I have no idea.
From the Malden shop books.
Those pages show a very knowledgeable customer base! I wonder if the two with their city or more address shown indicates they are new customers while the others are repeats.
The last entry, Mr Neal was building a target rifle on a Sharps and a varminter on a Stevens.
But, Pope and Kelly are the names we still know best.
Thank you Michael,
Your information is much appreciated, It's a great shame that few people realise the great historical value of such books and as you say they could just be dumped to rot away. Sorry to be so long in replying but I've just got home from a days Pre Operation Testing for when I go in for Surgery next week for Bowel Cancer. Keep your fingers crossed for me please.
Harry
Those pages show a very knowledgeable customer base! I wonder if the two with their city or more address shown indicates they are new customers while the others are repeats.
The last entry, Mr Neal was building a target rifle on a Sharps and a varminter on a Stevens.
But, Pope and Kelly are the names we still know best.
E. C. Sabin was a scope maker, there is page after page of stuff like this.
Thank you Michael,
Your information is much appreciated, It's a great shame that few people realise the great historical value of such books and as you say they could just be dumped to rot away. Sorry to be so long in replying but I've just got home from a days Pre Operation Testing for when I go in for Surgery next week for Bowel Cancer. Keep your fingers crossed for me please. Harry
Harry,
Good luck on the surgery and I understand what you will be going through. I just finished my seven weeks M-F of radiation and still have three more chemo treatments this go around. Take care of yourself, rest when you can, and let the world go about it's business without you.
Michael
Michael,
Thanks very much for your kind wishes, they're much appreciated, but I have to ask, what will the world do without me? PMSL. Sorry I have a warped sense of humour. Good luck with your treatment.
Harry
Harry,
Will keep you in my thoughts, wishing you the very best!
Lynn
Hello Lynn,
Many thanks my friend, I'd like to live forever, but having reached 70 and a tad more, it may not happen. I realise that sooner or later something like this may occur, but I'm not giving up. The Hoodie with the scythe is not getting me just yet, at least not if I can help it. Lol.
Harry
Harry,
from what I know of you, you are a pretty tough guy. I think the hoodie guy is going to be SOL. And when all is said and done, you will be back to chiseling out the Borchardt from its lump of steel.
Good luck and you know we are all pulling for you.
Brent
Thanks Brent, I'm not giving up yet.
Gentlemen please remember this is Michael's thread on A.O. Niedner's Stuff, back to the original subject please. Sorry Michael I didn't mean to cause a high jacking here.
Harry.
