I wonder if anyone can help me. I am based in the UK and have just acquired a .375 rifle whose provenance is a bit of a mystery to me. I'm looking at a beautiful rifle with engravings of lions and African scenes. On it is a serial number and
"L G Thomas Shreveport, Louisiana" and also "Griffin & Howe Inc. New York PAT. 1,856,549 May 3, 1932." Since I am in the UK i know nothing of, I assume the maker of the gun L G Thomas. Searching in your forum earlier I found in 2010 some brief references to L G Thomas when an earlier poster was inquiring. Can anyone help me - who is L G Thomas and is the Griffin & Howe date of 1932 a reference to the patent date rather than the gun date?

Sounds like a date seen on Griffin and Howe scope mount bases. Where are the G&H and patent dates located on the rifle?

Mr. Thomas is best remembered today for the target triggers he made for the Winchester 52 and Remington model 37.

He did make custom sporting rifles and I've only seen a few over the years. If you can would you please post pictures of the Thomas rifle.

The date and then the patent number both refer to the Griffin and Howe patent.

I seem to remember, but can't place my hands on it, that he may have had rifles engraved at Griffin and Howe as well.

PS: welcome to the form.

you are right they are actually on the scope mount base - so they relate to the scope that would have been there? It has the base and loops for the cope only?

Thanks Michael that's really interesting. Now, got to work out how to get photos up on the forum. Could you give me a quick pointer what i need to do. There is a serial number in relation to his name - i'm assuming if it referred to the trigger it wouldn't be emblazoned across the rifle? What years was Mr Thomas operating. Will get some pictures up once I work out what to do!

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=176240&PHPSESSID=

ESP,

There is a little bilking envelope at the top your screen that shows you have a private message. I sent you my e-mail and you may send the pictures to me then I'll post them. when I get your e-mail I'll send you what little I have in my file on Mr. Thomas.

I had a file on his rifles and a file on his triggers and I'm sure I gave the file on the triggers when I sold my Remington 37 that had his triggers.

Not sure what I did with the rifle file still looking for it. I was reminded via e-mail that we had discussed his work earlier and one of his rifles is marked "engraved by Griffin and Howe".

I look forward to some more pictures of the engraving especially the bottom metal from what I can see, might be Fugger engraved (he worked at G&H).

Are those coins at the base of the rings?

From what I have seen so far, that is a beautiful rifle. I look forward to seeing and learning more.

Merry Christmas to all.
Art

Now I want to know more. I'm from Louisiana, just 100 miles from Shreveport and have never heard of Mr Thomas. When was he in business and does anyone have any other photos of his work.

Jerry Liles

Model 70? It looks like in addition to the dimes added to the scope mount they trades the locking lever for screws.

i'm really helping all you gentlemen can help me as i've just acquired this gun from Africa and know I have a lovely gun but need to find out more about it - with the G&H 1932 reference I'm just wondering if that dates the gun or merely the patent?

here are three more pictures,I've got a busy day in front of me all check back later this afternoon. The reindeer are exhausted I have to go feed and water them, Merry Christmas.

ESP, let's start with a few basics, have you had the metal out of the wood and is the original serial number of the rifle on the underside somewhere?

A picture of both the left and right side, overall views, would tell us a lot more about the makers work.

MP - this is all i have right now as the Rifle is en route for UK! I have assumed the serial number shown pertains to LG Thomas numbered rifles made by himself.

For the gentleman down the road from SHREVEPORT - i found this entry in The American Rifleman Vol 88 No 4 April 1940

L.G. Thomas
1548 Ford Street
Shreveport
Louisiana

Precision Barrel Fitting & chambering Target & Sporting Barrels made to order

L. G. THOMAS Tool Maker and Gunsmith 132 E. Robinson St. Shreveport, Louisiana Representatives Al Freeland, 1112 35th St., Rock Island, Ill. RIFLE and Gunstock Blanks in following woods : American Walnut cut for crotch and stump figure. Circassian Walnut. Extra fancy Oregon Myrtle, beautiful figure, and Bird's Eye Maple. Wholesaler with saw-mill supervision insuring right grain in grip. Cheapest prices obtainable. Special inletting service to gun- smiths.

This was in the same publication in 1941 so he'd moved by then

Looks like first class work. Wonder why I haven't heard of him. I certainly haven't seen any of his firearms. Could the engraving be a product of E. C. Prudhomme of Shreveport?

Most people in North Louisiana remember Mr Walter Womack who was a riflesmith in Shreveport in the 50's to early 70s. I have my Dad's 338 built on a Mauser action by Womack. It's a nice rifle but can't hold a candle to the Thomas rifle.

Jerry Liles

Seems to me that I have seen that Lion before or very similar. Can't remember where. Does anyone have EC's book and can look. The crouch looks very familiar. All my books on engraving are with my son so I feel naked. (He's thinking about learning the art)

The engraving very much has the look of Fugger, to me at least. That would fit with the G&H connection.

Thanks we can start up again when you get the rifle and have a better chance to look it over.

I believe Mr. Thomas was a machinist by trade and may have worked on the first atomic bomb.

My notes show a book title "The Life and Times of Leon Grappe Thomas" I have not found a copy.

Leon G. Thomas 1905-1963 for others who want to research him.

I have two Thomas numbers 343 and 348, I would be very surprised if there were 40 much less 348 rifles with the Thomas name on them.

The old days of the Caddo Rifle and Pistol Club were very active. Shreveport had many prosperous, traveling individuals (oil and gas) I remember reading of several couples from Shreveport hunting with EK and several on the 30+ old days of African Safaris. The Caddo Rifle and Pistol Club was the hub of most of the activity. My Dad used to shoot the NRA 6400 Prone (or metric) matches there years ago. Don't forget this is Jim Clark's home range (the first and maybe still the only civilian trained Nationa Bullseye Champion). Bill Jordan lived there for many years after he retired from the US Border Patrol, I got to know him very well. I believe one of the first clean 6400 matches ever fired was shot there. So it does not surprise me that a cottage trigger maker was on the scene. It would not surprise me if we found him connected to other guns, knowing a little about that landscape. I was about 17 shooting with Bill Jordan and Bud Price, on Mr. Prices, Garland, AR cotton farm and I asked them how they could possibly shoot without ear protection and Mr. Jordan told me he couldn't hear anything anyway!!! He was shooting a .338/.378 KT at a gong at 300 yards. I'll be on the lookout for Mr. Thomas, may run an add in Shreveport Times.
Gary

The old address show previously is from the Allendale neighborhood. Even in the 50's-60's period this is not the typical address of a retail G&H customer. You'll want more magazine capacity to live there now. I'll bet we find this was a gift to him from another Shreveport friend. Where LA 173 crosses Hwy. 1 used to be nothing but oil field machine & pump shops, all the way to the old Downtown Airport. I'll bet these were his stomping grounds.

Gary

i think the floor plate is Griebal

http://www.fega.com/prodserv/CastsSC.asp?recidparam=59

FEGA sells a casting of this (same?) floorplate as Griebels engraving work.
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Also another casting of Griebel's work using the same scene.
Not uncommon for engravers to take an embossed lift of a favorite and use it over again a number of times.
Sometimes changing small details,,sometimes not. It saves alot of layout time.
http://www.fega.com/prodserv/CastsSC.asp?recidparam=50

I thought it might be, as I said I had seen it before. I think it may be in Meek's book on engraving, at least that is where I think I saw it. Could be wrong.
Kornbrath, Fugger, and Griebel were all of the same schooling. All worked for G & H.

With the FEGA having a casting one has to start wondering where they got it. Is the rifle in question something very special or was the floorplate one of a number of the same engraving. Just speculating.

There is a photograph of the same pattern unfinished on what appears to be a Winchester Model 70 florplate on page 18 of E. C. Prudhomme"s "Gun Engraving Review" in the Griebel section - The plate unfinished as it was done in reverse (upside down the way one usually looks at a floorplate engraved scene).

Jerry Liles mentioned before that E.C. Prudhomme was from Shreveport. I think that detail, possibly significant was missed.

Gary

From Kutter's links and WJW's reference.......I don't think there's much doubt it's Griebel's work.

The subject rifle and FEGA's Griebel castings:

Incidentally...........learned something today. Prudhomme's book (WJW's reference) states the original floorplate was discarded because the engraving was reversed from the traditional orientation. Horizontal "landscape" engraving is typically viewed "muzzle left". I didn't know that.

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This is all incredibly helpful. To Gary Duffey - i would love to run an add in the Shreveport Times - let me know if that is feasible and i can wire the fee. I read a little about L G Thomas on the Atomic Heritage Foundation Message Board a few years back see below:


"There is a persistent story in our family regarding one of our uncles, Mr. Leon G. Thomas. He was born in 1905 and passed away in 1963. The story was that he was in some way associated with the design or construction of the first atomic bomb. Mr. Thomas was illiterate, but a master machinist and tool and dye maker. He would have been in his mid to late thirties during the time the bomb was being developed. He spent the remainder of his life in Shreveport, Louisiana, where he owned and operated his machine shop until his death. Can you tell me if there is any actual record of Leon G. Thomas being associated with the project? Thank you very much. Duncan Stephens"

I really do have the bit between my teeth to find out more.

Grandview,
You my be onto something. There is a discussion in Meeks book about proper orientation of game scenes in engraving and they may have used this engraving as an example. Now my memory may be screwed up a bit on this all but if I had my book I would verify, so until I verify I am talking speculation to some degree. (Isn't growing old a hoot )
Anyone have the book handy or Iwill get my son to bring it back.

ESP, sounds like your gun may have some history associated with it. And that is fun.

Well I hope you all find your books and files as I don't have much chance of finding these books in the UK!

I did a quick check in the Meek book and do not see it.

My son is bringing the book over and I will look. I could be wrong about Meeks book but my mind says I have seen the pic before and read about proper scene orientation. We will have to seee.

Forgetting about that for the moment, I think ESP's gun may be an interesting investigation.

I would like to see full length pictures of both sides of the rifle. This is sort of like the "no name" rifles, It has a named maker, yet what do we know? I am sure the pieces will come together. As to the newpaper request that is no problem. I would like to know as much as possible (lineal decendents) first. It will help to provide a few clues or identifiers in the ad. I will be happy to do it. So then do we believe that this was a
master machinist who did stockwork, and sublet his engraving?

Gary

Muzzle Left,,Muzzle Right
The term tells the engraver which edge(s) of the part being engraved are the top and which are the bottom of the game scene.
It has nothing to do with the pose the figures are in nor the direction they face.

The term relates to lengthwise scenes on either the top or the bottom surfaces of the gun,,not the sides.

Muzzle Left is the most common for a lengthwise scene on a rifle floorplate as it puts the scene in proper position (not upside-down) when a right-handed person is viewing the rifle.

One of the 'old' rules of engraving layout. Much of that has changed and you will find both methods used now.

The pics posted above from Prudhomme's book show the discarded floor plate. It is cut 'muzzle right'.
It is unfinished except for approx 50% of the scene. The scroll and some of the scene are still just in transfer markings.

I'm afraid i haven't found out too much more since yesterday and don't have the ability to get too many more photos just yet. Gary - what did you mean about 'lineal descendants' above?

If the gun is marked for the early 1930's then this is at the beginning of the careers of l G Thomas and possible engravers! And i can't find out too much more re engravers - the Meek book is available on Amazon from the States but we think there is nothing in there?

thanks all

Arnold Otto Griebel Born 20 December 1890 Died 13 Sept 1970

Arrival in the USA 12 Mar 1928 from Germany

He was working for a tool and die maker in Chicago at least until 1930. When he registered for the draft (WWII) he was working for another company that I have not researched.

I do not believe that he ever did much if any work for Griffin & Howe.

Okay, I stand corrected, Kornbrath taught Fugger and he taught Churchill and Swartley, or as reported on the web.

Anyway, it seems that the rifle in question may have no connection to G&H other then the mount, which certainly could have been purchased and installed by Thomas. As I said will be most interesting when ESP receives the gun and if he can share.

Thanks

I'm not sure who taught who what I just have not done my homework on the engravers like I have on some of the gun makers.

I see very little Griebel work on the prewar makers that I have an interest in. My favorite of his is the squirrel on the side of a Niedner Ballard. The Squirrel

I did a quick check of the company he was working for in 1942 and it was a tool and die company and he was employed by them as an engraver.

Both Kornbrath and Fugger were each established engravers when they came to the US.

Kornbrath came here before WW1,,Fugger in the mid 20's IIRC.
Fugger worked with Kornbrath when he first came here and I seem to recall reading somewhere that Kornbrath was the one who sponsored (correct term?) his coming to the US.
Fuggers work w/Kornbrath for the first few years in the US was probably to learn more of the trade. Fuggers style shows the influence certainly.

I think there was some friction between the two, artists temperment aside even. But that's just a guess.


MP..If you like that squirrel that Greibel engraved on the Ballard,,Kornbrath did the exact same squirrel on a butt plate pictured in Gun Engraving Review.
Same pose, same tree branch,,his has a couple of extra branches in the background though.
The butt plate (trap door style) is part of an engraved set including the bottom metal for a bolt rifle ('03? maybe an M22)


Engravers have been copying others work since forever, especially favorite game scenes.
I wonder who went first?

Maybe because they stealing each others art work, could make a person testy.

I certainly have a lot of trouble sorting out late Kornbrath early Fugger.

As are matter-of-fact the last great debate involved the famous Kornbrath Indian floor plate. I was convinced it was done by Kornbrath but later convinced that the work was actually by Fugger.

As it was the rifle in question was another Thomas marked rifle.

I think that Griebel was a trained firearm engraver but tough to get established in the USA as an independent engraver. Not that it matters Griebel was from Germany and both Kornbrath & Fugger were from Ferlach, Austria.

"artists temperment 'aside'.."

Stealing each others ART work?
Perhaps,,copying of game scenes and layout has been common in the field forever, though still looked down upon. (There are copyright laws also)
Few engravers have the raw talent to sit down and draw up a scene. Both Fugger and RK were good artists, no doubt about that.
It still takes time to draw up a scene/layout. Stacks of pictures, clippings, layouts, a 'morgue' of animal drawings cut from magazines and books was and still is a part of most engravers needs. The computer has taken the process further and made it even easier to make up, size, copy and transfer.
Once an engraver hits on a good game scene you'll often see that repeated in their work over time. Others will copy it, even a scroll style.
The 'Neidner Ballard squirrel' mentioned above by Greibel also shows up on a steel trapdoor style buttplate done by RK.
So who copied who,,either mad at the other? Did one take credit for the little guy when the other did the cutting first. Maybe (probably) it's just a copy of a picture of some other artists drawing from a book. No credit given there.

It's the time saved in the process that is the benefit even if you have the talent for drawing it up youself.
I have copys of Bill MacGraws layouts. All those ducks, Indians, Trap Shooters, Mermaids, etc didn't come from the artists mind. Magazine clippings of ads, currency, stamps, etc.


RK accepting credit for completed engraving projects done by Fugger and others seemed to be the problem.

S&W RegMag engv by Fugger and a Win73 by Krieghoff engravers come to mind.

But not the other way around AFAIK

I too, have seen differences of opinion on Fugger v. Kortbrath engraving.

In conversations with Winston Churchill he told me that he worked with Fugger at G&H, and that Fugger would let him watch while he worked, but Fugger never directly taught him anything.

Unfortunaely my copy of Prudhomme's book was lost on a loan several years ago so I can't look up earlier squirrels. These engraved squirrels by Robert Swartley on a Low Wall I completed many years ago and was shown at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts. (BTW, oakleaf is one of my least fav designs but requested by the client.)
From Custom Rifles In black & white

This is all very interesting - I have written off to the gentleman i am buying the gun from - he knows the engraver evidently and says he's Austrian so watch this space. the earlier picture of the lion came from Prudhomme's book, correct?

Not quite a pretty as Steve's low wall squirrels, but my low wall was busy this morning, and it's all about squirrels, so I have to chip in from the bleachers.

I would like to see a picture of the Kornbrath/Fugger squirrel. If I'm remembering correctly it looks something like one of Audubon's in the Quadrapeds of North America. (Audubon should have stuck to the birds. Most of his mammals just don't look quite right.)

Jerry Liles

I've heard that both Kornbrath and Fugger were from Germany and Grable was from Austria.

I try to go back as far as I can when trying to verify anything. Articles written about someone are not very reliable, sometimes you have to pick and choose what official record you want to use.

For me one of the more reliable records are when individuals registered for the draft. These draft records seem to hold up better under scrutiny than other sources.

Here's a pic of 'the squirrel' as attributed to Kornbrath (in Gun Engraving Review)on the trapdoor style butt plate
Second pic is the bottom metal of the set pictured along with it in the book.
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Same squirrel layout as on the Neidner Ballard attributed to Greibel in MP's post earlier.
(that I can't seem to make a link too)

The few extra branches missing in the background, but everything else the same.


Copying a scene is one thing (and not looked on all that favorably in itself).
But taking (or even accepting credit given by remaining silent) for finished work an artist had no hand in is unacceptable.

>
Great looking Low/Walls. Is the L/Rifle a custom made project?

From John Dutcher's Ballard Book,

Michael, Saw that Ballard up close in Las Vegas about 15 years ago, unbelieveably beautiful, flawless, a dream, unfortunetly I think it was still chambered for 25RF. ...MIKE...

Yes, it still 25 rimfire but I believe I could gather up enough ammunition to make it worthwhile :-).

I don't believe that anecdotal written info from some pencil pushing government flunky!

So who actually engraved:
The buttplate and t-guard squirrel and ground hog?
The Ballard squirrel?

The Ballard is Arnold Greibel's work. I corresponded with the owner of the pistol grip rifle shown before I had Greibel duplicate the pattern on my Ballard (straight grip) in 1964. Cost was $275!

Butt plate & trigger guard is in Gun Engravers Review pictured in the chapter featuring Kornbrath and his work.

so when these gentlemen engrave are they copying from a design they did before? So if you have the original original that is special? Not sure

Thank you for all your help Gentlemen - this lady has sure enjoyed this dialogue and as soon as she gets hold of her gun you will hear more!

I'm intending to meet it in South Africa next year (next ear being very close) and take it back to Zimbabwe to get my buffalo. So it is certainly a special gun.

the gentleman from Shreveport - i'm still really interested in that advert in the newspaper to find out more about Mr L G thomas

Happy New Year