This is not mine and I don't know the seller, thought you guys might be interested.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=188660709

Does anyone here have any experience with the Sharps factory DST? Can they be made to work decently? Just based on what I have read, I would consider them a negative.

Would love to have a fancy Borchardt with a paneled action in a period sporting configuration or mid-range target.My copy of Sellers is smudged and drooled on.

I don't like the Sharps 1878 DST. From my limited use it snaps back and hits my trigger finger. Can be quite distracting in a short time. I've only used one but that's my experience with them.

It looks like the trigger adjustment screw is missing from the one listed.

Don't give up, this one stated life as a military action.

IMO a very realistic price for a rare-configuration action. Wish I had the spare shekels. I don't particularly like the octagon top but it's desirable to some.

And to answer your set trigger question, yes a reliable and crisp result is very doable IF the smith is patient and good at benchwork. The key here is to remove all, and I DO mean ALL, of the lost motion & play in the trigger mechanism. This requires fabrication of 2 slighlty-oversize parts and their subsequent gradual reduction in size to achieve as snug a fit as possible.

I can only describe the Borchardt trigger mechanism as Rube Goldberg on steroids. Even the standard single trigger version has no less than 4 moving parts and 5 right-angle bends in its linkage. But a knowledgeable workman can easily achieve a very crisp 2-3 lb unset pull, I have done it myself on 2 original Borchardts.
Regards, Joe

The seller is Dave Maurer that I bought a highly figured blank from about 15 years ago. The wood checked when it was profiled. I contacted him to purchase another and he sent a better piece than I had paid for at no charge.
Thanks again Dave.

Hello RHD45,

If you want to drool look here :- http://www.lozito-wolf.com/index.html

A couple of years ago just a basic Borchardt action from this gunsmith cost US$ 3,500.00 Colour Case Heat treating and engraving was extra. But boy oh boy does Lozito-Wolf produce a nice looking rifle. He does make it in a slightly modified form where the lever spring mounting is altered to a new spring loaded ball, and his version of Zischang DST's are a great improvement on the original Sharps Factory item, which were designed as an afterthought, when shooters being used to DST's in earlier Sharps models demanded DST's on the Borchardt. Michaels observation of trigger finger pinching was valid in the 1870's, as people complained about them back then as well.

Look through each of the sections listed on the left-hand side of the home page, drool over the Zischang DST's. But, like buying a Rolls Royce, if you have to ask 'How Much' you can't afford it. Email them for a current price list (if you have a healthy heart). lol.

A more inexpensive version can be obtained from the Borchardt Rifle Co. in Silver City NM for about US$ 2,000.00+ for a complete rifle. Shiloh Sharps in Montana have been promising a Borchardt for some years and have a few part prototype actions gathering dust until the owner can catch up with his workload to continue working on them. I won't hold my breath waiting for this one.

Harry

Borchardt Rifle Co is making A VERY FEW new actions as we speak, but the owner's age & health continue to be limiting factors. I spoke with the owner's (volunteer unpaid) helper and he told me the actions would sell for ~$2000 or possibly a bit less. BTW the owner's unpaid volunteer helper is a past Coors Schuetzenfest national champion, these guys are the real deal here.
Regards, Joe

Joe Lozito regularly shows at the big Vegas winter show. Superb stuff.

Well,now I am really going to have trouble sleeping.Thanks for the link Mr. Eales.Hugo Borchardt would be proud to see his design updated and still producing superior rifles.

The problem you run into when putting DST in a Borchardt is you do away with the safety.

Not needed on a target rifle but hunting rifles should have one. Zischang built a safety into the trigger guard and Niedner used a cocking knob.

Terry's Zischang with safety,


Dr. Baker's Niedner with cocking knob,

Back in the early '90s I fitted a Canjar SST to one of my Borchardts and retained the safety slide. No alteration to the rifle was required, only parts substitution. SUPER ugly and as mentioned before, required careful and very snug hand-fitting of the top knob of the trigger lever in the sear slide opening. And did I mention that it was SUPER ugly? Worked OK though. Later sold the SST portion separately and returned the rifle to the non-set version.

I bought my SST parts (trigger lever and kicker/shoe assembly) directly from Canjar, they don't make triggers any longer but they may still have parts or can tell you who to call.
Regards, Joe

Every time I see that picture of your Zichang Borchardt I have to stop and admire it again. I always thought I wanted one with a paneled reciever but when I see how the stockmaker picked up the lines from that reciever and the Zichang triggers, that's the one!

The Zischang is Terry's although I have the pleasure of handling it three times and could go for a fourth ;-).

I think that rifle is the nicest single-shot sporting rifle I have ever seen. Zischang IMO was one of the best in both metal and wood with an artistic eye as well.

I've dreamed of finding a bolt gun made by Zischang.

Michael,

Do you have any pictures of the Zischang safety or an explanation of how it works?

In all my researches into Borchardts I haven't found anything describing or illustrating it.

I believe that a Zischang Borchardt is the most gracefull of all the Borchardts, his work also included a subtle refining of the action lines that give his actions a really sleek look that no one else seems to have copied. He probably knew Borchardt actions better than any custom gunsmith of that period, he having been a foreman in the Sharps Factory during the Borchardts production.

Harry

Suppossedly there is a Zischang Krag out there somewhere.

I completely agree about Zischang, he had taste as well as mechanical talent. Many schuetzen rifles are functional for their purpose, but awkward looking. I saw a Zischang high wall several years ago that was just lovely, while still being a full offhand style target rifle. I can't explain what it is, but I know it when I see it!

Having never owned nor even handled a Borchardt and being totally uninformed of their variables, could someone please explain the several different screw patterns visible on the actions? Obviously some of the internals are diferent.

You can probably identify the lever screw and its keeper at the lower front of the receiver, it's fairly obvious. The action is fitted with 2 internal plates, one on each side, each retained by two screws and a locating pin arranged in a slanted fashion on the action's sides and encompassing the entire action side(s) internally from top to bottom. These internal plates contain cocking cams for the striker. There are 2 additional small transverse pins visible, one for the trigger and the other at the extreme rear is for the internal safety lever.

As the finger lever is lowered, the block moves downward and the internal cocking cams withdraw the striker rearward into the cocked position, ready for the next shot. The proper timing of this striker withdrawal is critical in order to prevent the striker nose from hanging up in a fired primer when the block is already beginning to move downward. This timing is IMO the single biggest downfall of many earlier single shot smiths, they simply didn't understand that the cam plates should be specially timed to act as mechanical striker retractors.

Several of the pictured actions also have a second small pin for the additional DST trigger and also a larger takedown pin located transversely through the bottom of the barrel's thread shank.
Regards, Joe

Hello ChiefShotguns,

In addition to what Mr. J.D.Steele has said, if you look at the photograph of the Neidner modified Borchardt, built for Dr. Baker (above) you will see only two large pins near the front of the action. One is the lever Pin and the other a take down pin which when drifted out permits the barrel to be unscrewed as J.D. said

In this particular rifle the Cam Plates are not necessary as the action is hand cocked before firing, therefore the cam plates and their locating and screw holes (three holes each side) are not required and in this rifle were either welded or rivitted to close them. The breechblock is a new and highly modified version of the Borchardt breechblock, the original being discarded.

To avoid the firing pin digging in when the action is opened I believe there is a small notch in the cocking piece that permits the firing pin to be locked back just enough to enable free opening of the breechblock. The small pins towards the rear are as described in J.D's.post.

Michael Petrov should be applauded for his willingness to show us such a rare Borchardt.

Harry

Great explanations, thanks to you both!!

Another Zischang, this one in caliber .28-30 which belongs to a friend here in town.

Notice that most Zischangs have the cam plate pin (in the center) replaced by a screw. Hard to see in these small pictures

why the screws and not pins? I recall there was a reason but I can't remember what it was.

So I can tell them apart????? I have no idea.

I like Borchardts...

Hello Michael,

Many thanks for the pictures of the Zischang safety, it's had me scratching my head for some time. Now I've seen the drawings, I'm even more puzzled. I'll have to have a think about this one. A two pipe problem Watson.

This may be just a shot in the dark, but the centre pin locating the cam plates goes into a hole that allows precise location of the cam plates, but, if replaced by a screw then these plates have a little leeway in movement which would allow a tiny bit of juggling about of the cam plates. Perhaps it was an easy way of getting the two cam plates into precise adjustment.
Just a thought.

Harry

Once again, If you log in and then hit "post a reply", scroll down and you will get a larger picture. Also, great stuff to view!! I want a set of Zischang trigers so bad for mine. O well! Has anybody seen a picture of John King's double sets?? He told me that he has several sets out there on trial basis. They're based on wsds that Winchester used on their walls. Bob

The flat side of the Borchardt also makes a nice canvas for the engraver.

My favorite engraving pattern,

One with DST's and engraving, this is Terry's rifle.

The photo above is a rifle with George Schoyen muzzle loading barrel, .32-40. Schuetzen wood is not nearly as extreme as many Schoyen's; in fact, it is somewhat Zischang in style (that means elegant, in my opinion).

Just enough engraving to set off the lines of the action and with the case colors really make a statement of quality and refinement.Both wonderful rifles.

Question concerning this Zischang Sharps Borchardt, what is the screw in the top of the breech block for?

WOW! Now I know what I want, this action with these triggers and the Zichang stock on Terry's Borchardt. The way that stock picks up the lines on the front and back of the action and carries it onto the wood is impressive. I like this action even better than the panelled one's.

Lovely rifles!
Some Borchardts coming up for sale at Julia's Auction.

I have or have had a Borchardt with a hole in that location. I believe that it's just a screw to cover the hole. Under the hole would be a another screw in the top of the firing pin in line with the sear notch. As you turn in the screw you shorten the contact of the sear from the underside. Or at least that's how I remember it.

Tomorrow I'll check and see if I have one so modified.

Hello LRF,

Michael is correct, the screw on the top of the rear end of the breechblock is a cap screw covering access to a much smaller adjusting screw contained within the firing pin, the adjusting screw which passes vertically through the firing pin contacts the top side of the sear. Turning the adjusting screw in, or out, will alter the depth of engagement of the sear in the sear notch.

A description of this adjusting screw and an exploded drawing of the Borchardt breechblock showing where parts have to be modified appeared in The American Rifleman for September 1946 pages 22 & 25 and was written by a Mr. Al Marciante, under the Title of 'Borchardt Trigger Pull'.

The article does contain a gross error in that the author recommends 'squaring up' both the sear notch and the sear tip. In fact the contact surfaces of the sear and the sear notch are angled at 103 degrees to the centre line of the firing pin. This angle is due to the geometry caused by the position of the sear pivot pin. This angle was known to Borchardt as it appears in his patent drawings, but seldom, if ever, in more recent drawings.

A simple grinding jig can be made to hold both the sear and the firing pin at the correct angle that can be used on a precision grinding machine. (See attached picture below). The firing pin in the picture is not finish machined, and is only shown in position in the jig for demonstation purposes.

I have not been able to trace any reference to this adjusting screw mechanism prior to 1946, and I strongly suspect that, whilst several of these sear engagement adjusting screws are known to exist on Zischang Borchardts, they were fitted long after the Master had passed on.



Harry

Michael & Harry,
Thanks!

Harry do you have a copy of the 1946 article that could be shared or do you know if it is on the web?

Thanks again.
PS: Haven't seen the package yet but have my eyes open looking for it. Hopefully it comes by Saturday or I''ll have to look for it when I get back next friday from California and Mexico. (Oh joy! business travel, NOT)

Hello LRF,

The article I got from Rudi Prusok, the ASSRA Archivist some three or so years ago. I't only a page and a half long. As far as I am aware it isn't available on the www.

If you PM me with your Email address I'll try and scan a copy and send it to you.

Harry

The action sold - at a very good price for the buyer in my opinion.

I agree $1650.00 isn't bad for a set trigger Borchardt action, especially one that looks as good as that. They aren't common, although a lot of actions were cut for the DST which was never actually fitted.

Harry

I have Mr. Niedner's Borchardt in caliber .38-72 with a Stevens-Pope barrel that dates to circa 1906. Tom Shelhamer had this rifle with the tools for sale in August of 1925 and it has the adjustment screw. I have no way to know when it did sell.

I feel confident that it's the work of Mr. Niedner but don't know when it was done.

Although the rifle came with the original Niedner mould and breech-seater I don't think it was shot much or any at all. The person I got it from or the one before him did not want all the paperwork that came with it and told that person to keep it and I've never found him.

I would be surprised to find an adjustment screw on a Zischang with DST's. Does the rifle pictured have DST's?

The .38-72 Pope is next to the Maynard Long Range.

Michael,
It has Dset triggers. It is on gunbroker, Jim G from Austin, Mn has it for sale, 188615659

Are you buying the rifle?

No
I might build one.

Great all you have to do is get a Zischang kit

Another project that's in a long line of projects.

A fancy front-n-back Borchardt!

Michael,

I have seen a photograph of some of the single shot rifles that LRF has scratch built, now he has a set of Borchardt Plans, I fully expect he will have built his before I have finished mine.

Sadly, I cannot stand in front of my machines for more than a half hour a day, before my back gives out. One of the curses of getting old I suppose. I first thought about scratchbuilding a Borchardt some 40+ years ago, when I retired I started work on it, now I am well on the way to finishing it, it's going to be a race between me and the Grim Reaper as to who gets their job finished first. lol.

Harry

I agree it's a beautiful action, but, whoever cut those scallops on the front and rear of the receiver was not going to endear himself to any stockmaker.

Harry

Thanks Harry, kind of you to say so. The samples of the drawings look interesting. Now to decide what I do next.

If I build a Borchardt like gun I will plan to use the good parts and may make improvements in some of the areas that could stand further development.

The following is my opinion:
The Borchardt rifle was an attempt to salvage a business share that was in serious decline. It was implemented with haste and therefore was not fully thought out or developed. If the gun had been brought into life without the financial crush the company was under, more design refinements would have been implemented prior to marketing. Unfortunately the buying public realized the negatives and also the entire market shift to mult shot guns spelled the end.
The Borchardt has 2 unbelievable attributes, that were very apparant. The graceful lines and the strength of the action (something that had never been in question with either this or the 1874 action)
To its negative were as most of you know, The trigger, The slow cocking with respect to the firing pin nose dragging on the spent primer, The difficult in manufacture and timing of the camming plates which added cost along with the wear on the plates which only add to the slow cocking. There is another issue less apparant and that is the lever spring which bears on the barrel, all though not significant this feature can be changed to a better design concept that I have used on my Farrow and Fraser rifles.

Mister Zischang fully under stood the trigger problem and he had a good solution if you are using the gun for target shooting (yes I know D Set triggers can work for hunting but are not as good as a good single trigger) Mr Niedner also understood the problems and added a target shooters solution to the cocking issues.

If I move forward with a build it will be using the plus' of the Borchardt and I will attempt to resolve the negatives.

Again remember that the above is only my opinion and what I want to do.

Harry,
In my opinion it is much more difficult to cut the scallops in the metal than in the wood. It does take a bit more time in stocking but with the draw-bolt pulling the butt onto the action, it goes fairly simply. That said, I have probably files my last scallops in anything but a very plain boxlock. they don't enhance a borchardt, or most any single shot IMO.

Now the forend is a bit different and given the way I bed a single shot forend, less than advantageous.
(BTW: who are you, LRF?)

Can you explain the question, one could read it more then one way, please?

The Borchardt action came from a man I knew in Portland. Before WWII he found the rifle in a pawn shop in Portland removed the barrel and wood and discarded them.

The action was then sent to Hervey Lovell in Port Townsend who streamlined it and scalloped the front and back.

His plan was to make a varmint rifle out of it and it set in a cigar box until I saw it. I've had it about twenty-five years and you see how far I've gone.

Now my idea would be a sporting rifle like Terry's DST's and safety in say 30-40-Krag.

I've tried to trade this action for a round top one but no takers yet.

Michael,
I think you are running the risk of that action taking up to much storage space at your house so since I truely am a nice guy I will happily store if for you.

Was it originally a military rifle? Who's barrel and what caliber? Looks like the makings of a fine rifle. Can't the Oct top be re-shaped to a round top?

Hello LRF,

I agree towards the end of it's life the Sharps Company was struggling and the Borchardt was its last hope.

I also agree that the basic production Borchardt could leave a lot to be desired, but even despite its faults it can still be a match winner today, provided it is set up correctly by a 'Smith' who really knows Borchardts. The faults can be overcome by very careful smithing. The cam plates can be a problem and the right hand plate is subject to breaking because it is weakened by the extractor clearance cut in the metal. The trigger pull is also a problem, but all these faults can be overcome, although not easily in a mass produced action.

If the cocking plates are adjusted correctly they will withdraw the firing pin immediately. Wear can be reduced by using the correct steels that are properly heat treated.

The Lever Spring mounting is crude but this problem has already been solved by Lozito-Wolf and very neatly indeed.

Several attempts have been made to improve the Borchardt, the first by P.O.Ackley who formed a company to produce a modified Borchardt, this was taken over by the Colt Manuf. Co and they only produced a small number of these 'Colt Sharps' rifles before dropping it, presumably because of high production costs and low shooter interest because all the calibres it was offered in were very modern cartridges that were not popular with traditional single shot rifle owners.

Another modified version was produced in very small numbers (probably less than 20 in all) by a gunsmith called Steve Fotu. He modified the breech block so it contained a different type of striker action and also mounted the trigger. Sadly he couldn't maintain production at a reasonable price, or possibly even lost money on them. The last I heard he had closed his shop and was working as an engineer for someone else.

No one as ever made a perfect rifle, some come close, some come very close, but sadly the nearer perfection they are the higher the price seems to be.I do look forward to seeing any improvements you can make to this action.

Harry

This was an original sporting rifle and it still has most of the original case color.

It could be reshaped but I don't want to mess up so nice an action. I do have a military action that can be reshaped when the time comes.

That pictures was taken some time ago but I think that's a Ron Smith straight twist 32 caliber barrel.

The Borchardt action has long been considered a good action and people have been looking for the actions ever since they stopped making them.

Ned Roberts was looking into having the Sharps Borchardt made in Germany in the 1930's. As far as I know nothing came of it.

Harry,
I guess I am ahead of Steve Fotu, because I am already an engineer and have been for the last +20 years (prior to that a toolmaker for 10 years).
LOL
I have no illusions and will only built one action. Someday the grandkids will own it and the others. I certainly can share any design points I try.

I never did like Colt's design because they narrowed the sides which I thought took away from Mr Borchardt's design.

I would be interested in knowing more about what Lozito-Wolf did to retain the BB and lever in the closed position?
My design is basically an internal spring which applies pressure to what you think would try to force the breech block down but in fact because the lever and link are just a tiny bit over center the spring force causes the lever to be pulled up and tight to the closed position.

What's to explain?
You know who I am, Michael is, Terry, Harry, mark...

Speaking of Sharps, I was scanning some old 4x5 images and ran across these unpublished photos of a Sharps M-77 John Madole and I built many years ago.

It had a cut-rifled barrel blank by Ron Long, barrel contouring and all metalwork from scratch by John, I stocked and finished the rifle and Eric Gold engraved it. Sharps 2 1/10, and it shot very well. Probably hasn't been fired since I did about 1993(?)



BTW: Michael, I thought that looked like a Ron Smith barrel blank!

Steven,
I live in Minneapolis area
Originally from NE Iowa
In my youth out of HS Uncle Sam gave me a free airline ticket to exotic SE Asia. I was an EOD tech (Explosive ordance disposal) Stayed 2 years instead of 1 cause it was way fun...seriously

When to school to study Poly Sci but quite cause I didn't like politicians. Became a toolmaker and then self taught myself engineering and computer sci.

I was a gun engraver way back but can't see to do it anymore. I built the prototypes 3D pantographs for Don Allen which his dakota arms sold. Al Lind still uses the original prototype that I built.

I was caught up in the custom gun making in the 1980's hay day period, knew Al Biesen quite well. I still call Mark Lee (of blueing fame) a friend although we have drifted apart.

I have made a number of single shots which I shot in BPCR for many years but don't really do that any more. I am now into building rifles my son hunts with. (We have a rule that a rifle or bow for that matter is only good for one animal and then it must be retired) The 300 H&H M70 with my G&H mounts is the gun for this year. I don't hunt I just go along. I don't hunt anymore because I'm not mad at any animals.

I also build tall case clocks which are very fancy, each very different and of my own designs and they are for my grandkids who are my passion. (I gave up the wife 25 years ago and just raised my boys myself)

That is who I am I guess, hope it helps.

Oh yes, a number of years ago, I stopped one time to visit Ed Webber and then stopped by the Sharps guys there in town, before I left they both offered me a job, but the pay out there in Mt just isn't what I get here. Thought it was kind of honoring and funny at the same time.

Was thinking about hunting south of you, your in Livingston aren't you? but have decided to go a little west of Broadview.

Lynn

Hello Lynn,

Little is given away by Lozito-Wolf, they merely say they have improved the lever spring by fitting a spring loaded roller to the front of the action which bears upon the front end of the lever. I presume this design is 'Patented'. A styalised picture of their action can be seen here:-

http://www.lozito-wolf.com/1878.html

The small protrusion on the lower front of the action it the new spring housing. It looks to me as it it is simply a screwed in item, containing a coil spring and a captive steel ball of a suitable diameter (rather like the spring loaded ball catch used on internal house and cupboard doors some years ago). Very little movement of the spring loaded ball would be necessary when the lever is used, probably no more than 1/8" or 3/16" in all. The idea is so simple I'm very surprised no one has thought of it before.

I presume in the Lozito-Wolf design that the breechblock position is maintained the same way as the original Sharps design, by an over the centre link connected to the breech block and the lever and kept in position when the breech block is closed by pressure on the lever from the new spring loaded ball design.

I would be interested in seeing any improvements you can come up with, there's always room for new and bright ideas in the single shot action world.

Sadly it's too late to make a copy of that spring loaded ball replacement to fit onto my action, I've machined too much metal away to make one fit. Still my action was intended to be a true copy of the original Borchardt. Perhaps I'll make another some day and use all the new modifications available, lol. I should live that long.

Harry

I got an email this morning from a friend that suggested Shiloh was thinking about building a Borchardt. Anyone know about this?

I'd put that one in the "everyone-is-thinking-about-building-a-singleshot" file right along with the latest high wall, peregrine,and numerous farqursons...

Shilo might actually pull it off though!
I've also seen ads for the business For Sale with local realtors, but not lately..

What about Argus Barker? Recently ran across a paper file with an old Rifleman story about his Borchardt, Stevensville, MT dated 10/1989?

I did a little searching and found this,

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13138&highlight=borchardt

A word about the Borchardt triggers. This has been my summer (as if we ever had one) project, a Malden-Niedner in caliber .25 HP Niedner AKA .25-Krag.

Mr. Niedner worked over the firing pin making it a smaller diameter and cleaned up everything. I can see no modifications to the original trigger. The breech-block has the typical Niedner hole in the top for escaping gas.

When I first started working with this rifle it took some time to get acquainted with the trigger pull. Because the other Niedner Borchardt has DST this one felt really bad!

I always start a database and enter all my load information so I started to notice that my later load on any given shooting session seemed better. Almost like a lead bullet rifle that you have to shoot some to condition the bore. I clean this rifle with No.9 and patch on a button tip only, I have never used a brush but I will if it ever loads up with copper fouling. Anyway I left the bore dirty for my next trip to the range.

This is an exceptional shooting rifle, even when fire forming brass, it does well. I can no longer complain about the trigger.





Yes, I still clean the rife after shooting it but I know now if I want minute-of-fly I need to foul it first.

Not bad for 100 year old rifle.

Michael,

That thread on the Shiloh Borchardts, on the Shiloh Rifle Forum, comes up at least once a year and has done so for at least five years. The last I heard there were three or four part made prototypes lying on a bench in the factory, all gathering dust.

Kirk never seems to lack orders and that's what's keeping him busy. They must be showing Quigley Down Under on the TV Channels again. lol.

Harry

Michael, Wonderful target!
Range?
sights?

Michael,

I recall you said the trigger pull on the Niedner was over 8 lbs. Could you talk John into coming out of retirement for "one more little project" and have him do the trigger modification as on your .38-72, Goergen's Zischang, and described by Harry above? If he wants to do two, to better amortize his design time and tooling, I'd be happy to send up the big .30-40!

100-Yards and a Unertl 12X.

Terry, If I could talk John into anything it would be to install these





At this point I hate to mess with success, after the above target I've not shot that rifle a lot.

Shiloh has been rumored be considering the Borchardt, the highwall, and now the 1877 Sharps. They just bought the tooling for the last from Axtel. I suspect that none of them will happen anytime soon - even on Big Timber time scales. The M77 makes a lot more sense than the other two. Frankly, I would rate the Borchardt as a distant third in that string as far as a business deal.

Brent