Arrived today from grip maker Keith Brown in Ohio.
I've got a couple of custom knives, holsters, boots but this is the very first time I ever had anyone make custom revolver grips for ME! So I got a taste of the Waiting....

I'm delighted to say the least.
They are in the original Roper style with Keith's stylistic touch. They fit the gun wonderfully and my hand, well... like a shooting glove!
(I supplied the English walnut.)

Very nice.

Very Nice, I have always like the Ropers and just found Mr. Brown a few weeks ago.

lovely grips. they wood look much better on plasma blued korth sport .357 with purple finished cylinder.

Steve,

I've also been looking at Mr. Brown's work lately, very nice.

Are you an ambidextrous shooter? I thought I read that Roper styles usually had the "finger curves" on only one side.

Is that a Masterpiece they're on?

Rob,
I'm right-handed only. What Ropers have is maybe a hint more of a palm-swell on one side.
The revolver is my "new" 1954 K-38 Masterpiece! I'll shoot a pik of the four "new" ('48-'54) K-Frames sometime soon! As you noticed, I'm gunbrokering the newer "old" ('60-'70's) K's to facilitate my desires!
Have you found a K-22 yet?

THANKS for all the nice comments guys!!

Just talked with Keith for an hour or so, I'm going to do a magazine story about his work, and order another set!

Steven,

Great stocks! how big a piece of wood does he need to start with? I imagine there might be some pieces leftover from your rifle stock work that are big enough?

I have found plenty of K-22's online, just not at the right price yet. Seems they have been going up before my eyes and I have not handled enough of them yet to make an informed decision. I don't want to jump into the deep end but it seems the prices go up every week. Not averse to paying current market but want to do it right.

The targets take a piece about 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 5", and I've got lots of scraps of fancy walnut. Keith also blanked out a couple of magna grips for me and I'm whittling them into shape while I decide on the right piece for the next Ropers.

Keep after the right revolver, been lots online but most over the top for prices. I'm sure happy with my "new" ones! The pic is a Combat Masterpiece .22 or pre-18.

Michael, I see you posted your "disfigured" 22/32 Beakert on the S&W Forum, to see what the experts say ;>#

I thought I should at least post a couple times before posting in the "Wanted" section ;-).

I called the store that has the 24 4". They have had it for some time and could not sell at $450 so they posted it.

And here is Keith's web site!
Keith Brown Grips

I used to own a S&W with a pair of original Roger grips. I don't remember them being as beautiful as those.

This is the best target I've shot at 25 paces in white a while. Truck hood/ butterfly case rest, 2 3/8" centers.
I'm sure it's the grips! (1954 K-38, Keith Brown grips.)

Those are some very classy grips!!!

Steve, did you use those "Super Match" wadcutters, or some different load?

Ain't a mid-50s K-anything just the nuts? (LAPD had a special violent crimes unit (became SWAT later) in those days that were issued K-38s. I guess in these "supersized" days we're not used to thinking of a .38 Special as a "Special Weapon" any more....).

Good shootin' by the way!

Group shot with Hornaday wadcutters, probably 20(?) year old.
Remember buying that vintage Win and Rem Match wadcutters and wouldn't pay more the $5 a box. The vintage Hornaday was a good gunshow deal at $12 a month or so ago. Bought ten boxes, shoulda-bought-em-all.

Nice Smith love your new Ropers.

I spent a couple hours this AM getting to know my 19, shooting some wadcutters. Rest shooting at 20 yards, offhand on the silhouette at 50-feet. Practice, Practice, and more Practice needed.

Not bad Michael! The Target grips should only feel a bit small in your hand.
I remember myself as being a fairly competant pistol shot at one time, at least I think I was!?!? Maybe??

The custom Magna grips finished. Figured on leaving them smooth and shiny, might checker later.

Thanks Steve, The target grips seem about right compared to anything else I've tried. It would be tempting to have a set made once I decide on what revolver I'll stick with.

In 1967-68 I wore out a brand new Colt Officer's Model Match 38-Special shooting nothing but 148 gr wadcutters. I thought I was OK but today with glasses and shakes ;-) not a cake walk anymore.

I've also never shot these B-29 NRA silhouette targets before the ten-ring is about the size of the cylinder. That's it...I need a bigger target.

Michael, that's exactly (bigger target, grin) what I said back in '66 when I was shooting at Trinidad on the pistol team. Then our coach, a fellow gunsmithing student named Harold Scherff retired from the USAF, made me shoot on the 50-foot International target, where the 10-ring is about the diameter of a 22LR bullet.

To put it bluntly, it showed me how much I could improve by setting higher standards instead of settling.

It doesn't mean very much to me any more but back then I prided myself on my pistol-shooting ability, and I was very gratified to find that practicing on the International target increased my average slow-fire scores from 90 to 93. BTW a 93 on the Standard American target is almost exactly equivalent to an 83 on the International target. Altogether a very humbling experience, to shoot a mere 83! Made me tighten up quite a bit, to say the least.
Regards, Joe

I've been taking my 19 to the range with me when I go and as of this morning have run a little over 300 rounds through it. Getting more comfortable with it and at the point where when I miss I know it's not the pistol.

Now to decide if I need Ropers or not ;-).

I even tried it without any glasses, saw two bulls and shot at the bottom one ;-).

Good thing you printed NO GLASSES in CAPS!

Nice targets, what distance?

Looks like El Paso leather, my fav!

These were all at 50-feet.

Yep, El Paso Tom Threeperson and Safariland speed loaders.

Good shooting. Just proves what most people have a hard time believing, that shooting a handgun is 10% seeing, and 90% squeezing.

John

All El Paso & custom grips!
The Colt is in a Geo. Patton holster with old ivory, then 3 lined 3-Persons. I aquired all the holsters, and revolvers second-hand.

John, problem is, I learned the squeeze but lost the vision...
(Truth is my corrected eyesight is pretty darn good, except when trying to focus at three differrent distances.)

Nice lineup Steve, back when I carried a triple-lock in the woods I had a holster that looked just like the Patton model. Nowadays I like a a holster that's a little more on the smaller side.

We had our third day of summer today so it was back to the range and I tried out some 158 SCW's at around a 1000fps. All seemed to shoot to the left so I'll have to find a load then adjust my sights for it.

Anyone use SR 4759 in 38-Special or .357-Mag? I tried some with 10 grains they seem to shoot OK.

Got a Lewis lead remover, Mike? You're right on the velocity edge.

I haven't handloaded for revolvers since the 80's and don't remember any loads except Bulls Eye and 2400. Just bought .44 Special and .38 Special dies & will be paying more attention. Going to try some SR 4227 in .44 because I've got it.

New custom grips arrived today, I got at a very fair price and had been wanting for sometime. Lew Sanderson made in a one-man shop, Detroit area 1960's-70's. Shown on my 30's vintage Outdoorsman .22.
The are delightfully petite, great for my rather small hands, just 1 3/8" by 2 1/4" on the bottom oval. The edge of the thumb rest is almost sharp and nearly delicate.
Originally cost $15 new according to his brochure, cost me about X 10 and a good buy (have seen at $400 yikes!)
I'm Very Pleased!

Great little S&W Steve congrts on the grips.

No lead yet, I'm casting 50-50 Linotype-lead with Alox-beeswax lube.

Back in the triple lock days I loaded 4759 in the .45-colt and liked it a lot so I'll experiment with it in the .357. Having a case of the stuff may play a small role as well.

God Bless you for casting bullets...
I spend too much time in the shop already!
Hope to buy some .44 cast bullets at the Billings Show this weekend.
Do you have a progressive loader?
The thought of doing 50 count boxes one at a time??? but I used to enjoy it so I give it a whirl.

Shooting a schuetzen rifle for thirty-five years bullet casting is common around here.

I have an old RockChucker but don't think I've not thought about some sort of progressive loader, maybe even a turret press would speed things up.

Most of my shooting is on the more serious side so this nostalgic trip into wheel guns is fun, if I don't think about all the reloading.

A question for the more advanced pistol shooters among us. I've been looking at my targets and trying to set some goals for myself with this S&W 19 w/ 4" barrel.

How does consistently hit a 2" target at 50-feet from rest and 4" offhand, Is this reasonable?

IMO very reasonable, very achievable.

On your range outings I suggest a side-by-side comparison with a handgun of known performance, to better evaluate your own perfomance that day as well as that of the M19 and its ammo. A benchmark if you will.

For a comparison, my S&W Magna Classic would shoot into less than 1.75" at 50 yds from a rest, iron sights. I've had a number of common M29s that would shoot into 6" or less at 100 yds all day long. M41 S&Ws will do 2 MOA or less, all day long.

I seriously doubt you'll get that sort of accuracy from a non-fire-lapped M19 but IMO 6-8 MOA is a reasonable goal for you, from a rest. That translates into less than 2" groups at 50 ft from a rest.

Many, many gallery pistol shooters can achieve this level of accuracy from the offhand, it's not too difficult with a good 22LR.

FOCUS ON THE FRONT SIGHT ONLY! CONCENTRATE ON THE TRIGGER SQUEEZE! FRONT SIGHT, TRIGGER SQUEEZE!
Regards, Joe

Sounds reasonable.
I try for 2" at 25 yards but the target on the first page of this thread (I thought was pretty darn good!) has 10 in about 2 3/8" although 8 are in a 2" circle. (Truck hood rest, 6" barrel the 4" Combat Masterpiece should do as well I think).

4" at 50' is something to shoot for but more than 5 without a flyer would be might good, IMO. No question the thumbrest grips help offhand shooting. Are you going to get some for the Combat Magnum?

Personally, I don't care where the group is on the target if I've got adjustable sights as one day I just might adjust them.

It's those darn flyers that are hard to account for!!!

Alas, it's usually the loose nut on the trigger (grin).
Regards, Joe

J.D.,
I'd like to see that 1 3/4" 50 yard target, with any revolver!
Best,
Steve

I envy you gents who aren't hobbled by NYC's Sullivan Law. Notwithstanding (I will say it) my outstanding expertise in negotiating its intricacies for clients and myself, I have over a lifetime been able to own not more than twenty or so handguns. It is usually possible to get any pistol onto a "premises" license, but the process is laborious beyond description. There is a side benefit: you tend to get lots of practice with what you do own. I have worn out three barrels on my 1911. My principal revolver "accomplishment was a six shot six inch group at 100 yards with a 7.5" New Service Target, from a rest. The gun was still in its box when I bought it at Abercrombie & Fitch thirty years ago and the box was marked "Bright Blue". Alas it is long gone, too valuable to keep.

" No question the thumbrest grips help offhand shooting. Are you going to get some for the Combat Magnum?"

As a candidate for carry I'll stick to the grips on it and see how I progress.

I fired a lot the other day double action and was surprised how well it (we) did. I'm getting to like this pistol.

Steve, I'll see if I can find some of my old targets but IIRC I gave them to the new owner. (later) Success! Here are 2 of the best I've shot, one at 50 yds and the other at 100 yds.


The Magna Classic was a very limited-production M29 or M629, specially accurized and specially strengthened for shooting handgun silhouette with very heavy 44Mag loads. It came in a HUGE fancy mahogany case with a lot of extra front sight inserts for various ranges and sighting conditions. The full underlugged barrel and the round-butt grips made it too front-heavy for field use but it was QUITE accurate.

In 1990 it cost almost $1,000 (~ 2-3 X normal M29), I believe that was the only year they were made unless recently. I bought a stainless and my shooting buddy bought a blue one.

Both revolvers came with factory test targets fired from a rest at 50 yds, all six shots well under 2" using Federal 240-gr jacketed bullet factory loads. I remember feeling underprivileged because my buddy's test target was 1 5/8" while mine was only 1 3/4".

We loaded some Sierra 210-, 240- and 250-gr jacketed bullets with heavy loads of H-110 & 2400 and were both able to achieve less than 2" from a rest at 50 yds with all 3 bullets. Took practice and 110% TOTAL concentration but it can be done with the right handgun.
Regards, Joe

Steve, here's a more representative sample of my own shooting, with one of the most accurate Colt SAs I've ever owned. It's a 1st-gen, actually an 1894-vintage BP gun that someone reblued and I later rebuilt.

The flyers are present on almost all the targets shot with that revolver. I used mostly plain-base Keith SWCs (the coffee-can bullet) from a specially-sized Hensley & Gibbs mould that threw the old-style wheel weights to 0.454" as-cast, 265 grains with the lube. The first-gen 5 1/2" barrel grooves measured 0.454" and I substituted a 2nd-gen cylinder with throats measuring .455".

The early Colt dimensions are a mare's nest of conflicting & non-matching sizes, possibly the subject of a future thread. Let's just say that if you ever find an early Colt revolver that's REALLY accurate, IMO you better cherish it and hold it close, VERY close!
Regards, Joe

Is the .38-Sp. a more inherently accurate round than the .22LR?

Well I decided this morning that if it's 50 yards away it's not a threat so no shooting at that range ;-).

Circle=50 yards, double action, rest, 12 rounds
Square=25 yards, double action, offhand, 6 rounds

Rob, my take is that they are about the same when comparing the best wadcutter 38 Specials to the best 22LRs in the best handguns, out to 50 yds that is. After 50 yds the WCs are about done and will start to spread while the 22s will reach out somewhat farther with good accuracy, as much as 100 yds and even more.

Either one will provide more accuracy than 99.9% of shooters can take advantage of.

The heavy Keith-style SWCs will easily reach 100 yds and even much farther with good accuracy but perhaps not as good as a good 22LR IMO, at least out to 150-200 yds where the SWC really takes over.

Here's a controversial opinion and I offer it as only my opinion but based upon experience. I've never personally seen a revolver, any revolver, that would outshoot a semiauto of the same caliber and quality. IOW I've ALWAYS been able to outshoot any K-22 with any M41 or High Standard or Woodsman, same with the K-38 vs the M52 or even the abortive Colt Mid-Range Gold Cup. The typical non-fire-lapped revolver is simply not as accurate as the typical target semiauto, at least not in my experience.

For reference, I've had close to a dozen each K-22s and Woodsmen, about 1/2 dozen High Standard target models, 2-3 each M52s and Mid-Range Gold Cups. Also 6-8 M29s and a few dozen Colt SAs and another dozen or so 45 Gold Cups & other accurized 1911s. Owning these doesn't mean I'm right but shooting them for ~40K-50K rounds means I have formed an opinion. Have killed a number of whitetails with 22LR handguns using head shots at under 30 yds (but no farther with a 22).

I highly recommend Keith's Sixguns and McGivern's Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting for more detailed info on what's possible with a good handgun. These 2 books, although somewhat dated now, are still the best on the subject and will give you at least 95% of the knowledge needed for good handgun performance.

Here's the other (grin) 95%(VBG!): FRONT SIGHT, TRIGGER SQUEEZE!
Regards, Joe

Michael, since you're shooting DA then I'll suggest a spring kit and some polishing of internal parts. Also there are several DA techniques that will permit better DA sighting and control, mostly involving a partial-stop of the firing stroke just before discharge.

I've found that it's really helped me when I've shot at a distance over water where it was easy to see the bullet's strike for instant evaluation of the shot. I highly recommend this or something like it for about half your practice, the other half on paper. Just be sure of your backstop when firing over water of course.
Best, Joe

Thanks for the opinions Joe, always informative. FWIW, I have a copy of Askins THE PISTOL SHOOTERS HANDBOOK and he agrees with you, the semi autos will outshoot a revolver every time.

Just got this nice pre-M43, the SCS&W calls them the "1955 .22/32 Kit Gun Airweight", alloy cylinder and 3-1/2" barrel. Plan to use it as a carry gun while bird hunting.

It came with period correct Magna's that weren't numbered to the gun so I put on a set of Herrett Shooting Stars I found. I'm new to handguns so I'm not sure how much difference these grips will make over the Magna's in field use but they certainly feel better in the hand. Will see how I shoot it and if it's a keeper may go for some nicer grips and a flap holster.

Very Cool Rob, guess the bug has bitten??!! I've got a set of thsoe Herretts also, the are mcuh better for shooting. Is yours square or round butt? I've got a nice lined holster if you're interested?
This 1953, Kit Gun with 4" barrel and 4-screw sideplate arrived just the other day, and it shoots very nicely! The El Paso was waiting for it...

Rob, have you put a magnet to the cylinder of that pre-Model 43 Airweight Kit? I had one of those once but wasn't aware that the cylinder was alloy, although the frame clearly is. I found mine just too light for my shooting ability and traded it in on a Model 51 .22 WRM a few years later. That one I still have: a "Baby Magnum".

Kit Guns of any flavor are some of the coolest handguns. I also have a 4" 651 .22WRM that I shoot the best of any of my handguns. The only thing I don't like about my two .22 WRM Kits is that they make one hell of a crack with the 3 1/2" barrel on the 51 and the 4" on the 651. Ear protection definitely needed, even when hunting.

AMEN, Brother, and plenty of it!
Regards, Joe

Steve, mine's a square butt gun, got the Herrett's on eBay. Thanks for the holster offer, sent you an email.

BTW, how are the Herrett's finished? Think I can stain them a darker color without stripping?

Mike, I checked and both the frame and cylinder are alloy, the gun weighs 14.9oz. with the target grips. I have not done much small revolver shooting so I'm not used to a heavier gun.I have read some reports of the alloy cylinders being more prone to misfires when used in DA, they absorb more of the hammer blow's energy and transfer less to the cartridge rim.

All the Herrett's of this style are ugly colored, (although I think the color of your photo is off a bit?) Here are mine (with a newer 1970's Kit Gun I inherited from my Dad and am giving to my pregnant niece, eventually for their son) and my favorite J-Frame Don Hume holster. And BTW, the newer/older K-gun did misfire a few times double-action the other day with Mexican (Can you believe it!!??) Eley.

I've got too many real projects to mess much with staining, please let me know if it works out I might try it? I'd try alcohol stain right over the finish, then top-coat.

Rob, I missed that with mine, or my memory sux. Equally likely.

Steve,

Thanks for the suggestion of the alcohol based dye, it worked fairly well. I used a blend of dk. walnut and dk. cherry right over the original Herrett's finish and then buffed with carnuba wax.

Recognize the holster?

I got this pair along with a 1957 4 screw K-22 just today. I first saw the square holes on the back of the unmarked side and I thought maybe I got lucky and they're Ropers but the checkering looked a bit coarse. Turns out they are stamped Herrett's inside the other half but they were handmade, you can see the chisel marks on the top.

Rob, the die job worked out pretty good.
BTW: that's a great holster, eh?

Those are the nicest Herrett's I think I've ever seen! Unusual in covering the backstrap!
Let see the sides, is that English walnut?
I'm waiting on new KB N-Frame grips, will post when they arrive.
Have added interesting factory type grips to the menagerie.

.32 Regulation Police with rebated frame and extension grips, vintage 1923.

Thanks Steve, I'll show you the sides later this week, holidays and all. BTW, I love that black Don Hume holster and just missed getting one on for my 2" nickel kit gun. If you see that model for a 2" J frame let me know.

Rob

Yeh Rob, if I find a 2" Don Hume, I'll show you a picture, also be on the lookout for Bucheimer J-frame 2" holsters, concealble style, but works as a very good field holster as well. I have a 3" J Idaho Leather Co. and a 3" K unmarked Don Hume that are swell holsters.
Sold a bunch recently, but still have a couple of boxes full!

Most recent S&W, .38 S&W 1950's Terrier a Swell revolver and an instant FAV, ho holster, YET!

Found this from the S&W forum, my Herrett's

English Walnut?

Maybe?
Hard to tell from the pic. maybe a shot in the sunlight would show the grain a bit better? Are they really that dark?
Sure looks like good grain flow which is particularly important for thumbrest & flaired grips! they are very nice!

I copied that catalog page to my archives...
Thanks Rob...

Love those J-frame Smiths! (Altho that .32 is probably really an "I" frame, isn't it?). I also like both those ctgs. a lot; the .32 is a great small game killer when loaded with wadcutters. The Fiocchi .32 wadcutters are loaded to work European auto target pistols and seem a little hotter than the US factory load. They kill pests very well.

The .38 S&W just seems to hang in there. At in-home self-defense ranges, it is probably as good as most, if you can find or make "New Police" or "Super Police" bullets or wadcutters for it. I still remember the WHOP that my mother's "Lemon Squeezer" made when we used it to slaughter steers. Like the world's largest staple gun!