Mine is a 3rd Model, 10" brl .22lr (the one with the centered trigger and useless double action mode) that was in fair condition with a good bore when I got it. Tightened-up the latch/lock, spent about a solid week hand polishing it and had Mike Dubber gold inlay the barrel marks. Spent another week making and 32 lpi checkering the English walnut grips with a minimum saw kerf for a good book match. Steve Moeller charcoal blued the gun, had the trigger and hammer re-case colored and I (non-factory) nitre blued the screws. After it was all done I found out why Roper and others added fore-stock and barrel weights as it is entirely too light, especially in the front end, to shoot very accurately. I love the gun (and took some time fooling around with PhotoShop backgrounds, lableing) and will post similar for others.
Best,
Steve

This is the GREAT thing about the internet, I thought I was the only S&W single shot looney, found out about Terry's years ago, but never though there would be three of us!
These are Very Cool pix from Set-Trigger, I'll let him explain.



Hope we get to see more of the pistol!
(and to think I could have stamped my barrel?!?)
And I missed posting this barrel pic the first time around!

Here is a Model 1891, which was available as a revolver or single shot, hence the recoil shields. The original owner was J E Gorman of San Francisco, Captain of the 1908 U.S. Olympic team, and winner of the gold medal at London. The medal is shown in the case. The barrel on the pistol is marked H M Pope, but does not carry his code lines as his rifle barrels almost always do. Perhaps the limited space changed his practice.

This photo shows the open case with the factory barrel, spare grips, tools, and Stevens Pope ammo. Many people were involved in this project: engraving by Lynton McKenzie in a style typical of London 1908; grips by James Tucker and Monte Mandarino from briar; metal finish by Pete Mazur; tools by Bill Crowley; case insides by Steven Alexander.

There were lead weights hanging from the barrels when I bought it circa 1962. I removed them in a perhaps misguided aesthetic decision.

Terry, thanks for moving them!
Are the grips held on by a screw from the bottom?
Are both barrels Pope?

The case is very nicely done, I especially like the pyramid holding the medal and the pistol.

SDH: Yes, the grip retention screw comes up from the bottom. The second (original) barrel is Smith & Wesson.

I will add photos of another pistol, this one marked "A O Niedner, Malden, Mass", It is serial 1610. The barrel has a liner and there is a trigger stop. The remainder of the pistol looks factory.

I'm not sure what the 688 in Set Trigger's numbers imply. The 4428 is apparently the Smith & Wesson serial number. Pope barrel number 681 is dated 6/18/26, so with a target from 1913, 688 could not be the Pope serial. 603 is dated 12/20/22, so Pope's production was very low by the 1920s!

The A O Niedner marking is stamped on the side barrel flat, between the hinge and the standing breech. Unfortunately, it really is not legible in this photo.

Steve,
Thanks for posting the photos.
There's not much to say about Pope barrel # 4428 - 688. I don't know much of anything about Pope numbers, all I can tell you is what is on the barrel and of course you see what is written on the targets.

I bought the barrel just as a barrel with the targets, no frame came with it, bought it from an old guy in CT in the late 50's, only bought it to shoot, I had a third Model S&W to put it on, of course you know what they look like, if you seen one you have seen them all. I still have both the barrel and the third model S&W, in fact I have all the single shot S&W's plus a bunch of other single shots like the Colt Camp Perry, USRA single shots, Stevens single shots etc. Over the years I've shot just about all of them in slow fire competition. The Camp Perry, USRA, and the S&W's all shot about the same, very tight groups at 50 yds., the only ones that were not up to the accuracy standards were the Stevens, of course I never had a Stevens Pope.

The odd thing about this Pope barrel is that it's a third model barrel but it's numbered in the second model range, second model numbers run from 1 to 4630 so you can see it's well within the second model range. # 4428 would be 1909 production barrel, the third model numbers were supposed to have started around 4620, in fact S&W number 4656 has a Pope barrel # 704 that was C. S. Axtells gun. As you probably know the first and second model barrels are interchangeable, but the third model barrel only fit third model frames.

Probably already yakked way to much about my stuff, would like to have more info on Terrys 1891 J E Gorman gun.

I have searched some of the records I have on J E Gorman and the 1908 Olympic records say that he came in third with a score of 485 X 600 for a Bronze, the Gold being won by a Paul Van Asbrock of Belgium with a 490, and the Silver won by R. Storms of Belgium with a 487.

Also checked who the team Captain was as most times the team Captain would be way to busy with other things to shoot an event like the Olympics but it can happen, my records show that Reginald H. Sayre was team Captain ?.

Terry,
I don't want to be picky, picky but can you tell us what is engraved on the other side of the medal and where you found your info.
ST

ST,

I got the information from two sources; Mr. Gorman's Granddaughter's story to Trader Chappel, and the book "Bullet Holes" by Wesson. I'll try to find the book, as it is not where I just looked.

As I recall, nothing is engraved on the back of the medal. I'll have to get it out, but I think the clasp/ring that encircles the medal has ".22" engraved on it. The medal is NOT Gorman's unless it is coincidence as I bought the medal from Flayderman several years after getting the pistol, and perhaps three years after finding the book.

ST,

The reverse side of the medal is also high relief, but a different scene. The front carries the inscription Olympic Games, London 1908 beside a male athlete over whose head two seated women hold a wreath. The back is a knight in armor seated upon a prancing horse next to a woman or angel. I'll try to get decent photos to post. So, no blank space for engraving. Nor do I see the .22 I remembered.

I thought the book might be in the safe with the case, but it was not. I will find it, I'm sure.

Terry,
I was just curious as It didn't look like an Olympic shooting medal to me, I checked my records again just to be sure and they seem to be correct. Did some further checking and cant find any record of him shooting after 1911.

I know there is a silver cup with his name on it dated for 1908 and there may be some medals with his name on them. I'll check later tomorrow. I know that he shot as an individual in the 1908 Olympics as I have his scores for that event.

Is there any chance that he also shot in the Olympic Team events. If so maybe that's where he won his Gold Medal. I'm taking this from an old memory but I think the US won one of the Pistol events in the 1908 Olympics, and if that's so there would have been five Medals given, one for each shooter and one for the team Captain. I didn't check the team event scores but I have them in another area. I'll try to check them tomorrow.

Very interesting gun, as I'm sure you know the 1891 could be fired in three different calibers just by changing barrels, 22, 32, and 38, are both barrels 22 LR or is the other barrel a different caliber.
ST

Terry, and anyone else interested in J E Gorman.
I was mistaken when I said that I couldn't find any record of him shooting after 1911. I guess I just did not look close enough, that happens sometimes when I rush things and the old eyes are tired. I now found his shooting records up to 1913, his name is on two Silver Cups, the U S Revolver Cup for 1903 and the U S Pistol Cup for 1908. Also found that he used a S&W 38 spl with a Pope barrel in 1909 using U M C 38 spl Ammo.

Most all his 22 shooting from 1903 to 1913 was with Peters 22 LR ammo.
I ran out of time before I could check the team scores, I'll try checking next week if there is any interest.
ST

ST, I've asked Michael to post the medal photos as I can't seem to make it work. I did locate the book, "Bullet Holes, A Record of Records", by Douglas B Wesson, published April 1915. Your theory on the gold is correct, it was a team medal. J E Gorman (501), I R Calkins (473), John A Dietz(472) and C S Axtel (468) for a total of 1914. R H Sayre was Captain. Belgium was second at 1863, the United Kingdom third at 1817.

Both barrels for Gorman's 1891 are .22. I do have two or more S&W single shot barrels that are not on actions. At least one is other than .22, maybe more than that.

Did you see the Stevens Pope rolingblock pistol over on the ASSRA site?

Terry,

The reverse side of the medal is St.George the patron saint of England in the act of slaying the dragon which is between the horses legs, the lance can be seen piercing the dragons head. as you surmised the lady watching these proceedings is an angel.

Harry

Thanks Harry,
I knew I seen that "St.George slaying the dragon" somewhere before, just could not remember where, but was sure I never seen it on a shooting medal before, now it makes sense because of the Olympics being held in England. Then the light bulb went off, I have some British Gold Sovereign coins from the early 1900's that I think have that same St.George slaying the dragon on the back of them. I'll check to see what dates they are.

Terry,
I missed the Pope rolling block pistol, I'll go look for it when I have more time. I'll check the team records on Monday to see what else I can find.

Do you have any pictures of J E Gorman and if so could you post them, if you don't have any I'll look for some in my records, being he was such a great shot I may have a few, it would be neat to have a look at the shooter that shot so well with that gun.
ST

I thought "Bullet Holes" had a photo of Gorman, but I did not note one when I went through it yesterday. I would like to see one, should you find it. I think he had a bar in San Francisco circa 1900. He did have an impressive shooting record, per Wesson's book. From page 14 "This evidently was arousing the spirit of rivalry in the hearts of the western shooters, as we find in 1902, July 13, Mr. J. E. Gorman in San Francisco, girded his loins (no - revolver shooters don't gird their loins - the chances are that he laid down his cigar, wiped his hands on a dry cloth,took a deep breath and went to it). However, he fired 100 sots at 50 yards under the proper record conditions at that time and secured: 10 shots ....100, tying our friend Sergeant Johnson's 10 - shot score. 50 shots....475, 100 shots....924. This 100 shot score raising the record set in 1887 by 10 points. A good increase, but it took fifteen years to do it. Mr Gorman used the Smith & Wesson revolver in his shooting."

Found J. E. Gorman's addresses as follows:
1903 to 1908, 151 DeLong Ave. Sam Francisco, Calif.

Then he moved in 1909 to: 15 Hazelwood Ave. Sam Francisco, Calif.
Also found that he lived in Oakland, Calif. but have not found an address at this time.

Also found a picture of him and the 1908 Olympic team, I'm not that good of a camera guy and the person that usually takes the pictures is on vacation but I'll give it a try later. Yes he did have an impressive shooting record, more than a lot would think. Most would not believe the effort he put into just makeing the team.

Sorry guys,I just realized that this may be out of line for this forum being that it's supposed to be about and used for as the header says,

"Classic & custom high quality single barrel sporting rifles",

I hope that all this stuff about him and his shooting records does not up set anyone. Sometimes I get carried away when researching a shooter and / or the gun that was used.

Let me get the photos to Terry and then I'll back off this.

Steve, would it be ok for me to e mail you the photos to be up loaded.

By the way, somewhere in the back of my mind I'm thinking he was a also a great Schuetzen Rifle shooter, maybe that would be more appropriate for this forum, when I have some extra time I'll check into it, a lot of the old time pistol shooters were cross over Rifle shooters, but Rifle shooters very seldom crossed over to pistol.
ST

ST,
Keep'em coming. And if you don't post that picture here, I'll be really disappointed. Pistols are, to me, an missed opportunity for a rifle. But I don't mind an education in history. Besides, those pistols would work fine in a squirrel woods in a pinch.

Brent

ST, Don't give a second thought to your subject matter except that we consider it a rare treat! Just consider it a random tangient for those of like mind, you can tell us about the schuetzen later.
I'd be happy to post more pix, send 'em along.

Was shooting my S&W M-41 yesterday, an incredibly accurate "machine" and I just can't imagine trying to post a decent score with a featherweight single shot!?!? I guess I'll have to get the "queen" out of the safe and try her out again, it's been many years. If you could find out the size of the 10 ring bulls-eye, I might try it myself.

Terry, I noticed in the report it said S&W "revolver"? This could only be a New Model #3 or a single shot "revolver" from what I remember about available target S&W's in 1902. What do you think? (BTW: a G&H M-99 .250-3000 with a Zeiss(?) scope, Lyman tang and folding leafs on the 1/4 rib with a 3/4 length forend showed up at our informal shoot yesterday.)

Ok Steve,
Thanks for doing the up load. There's only two of them so far. I'll send them to you later. As to the size of the 10 ring, it was 2 inches and the distance was 50 yds, later on the distance was changed to 50 meters but the 10 ring stayed the same.

I've shot a lot of those matches with some of the older guns, most of them had about two pound triggers so it's not that easy, it does become easer if you are shooting a Free Pistol with less than a 5 oz. trigger.
ST

The quote above is from a portion of Wesson's book called "Revolvers" while the next section in the book is "Pistols", so I suspect the 10, 50 and 100 shot records are with the #3.

I had heard that the G & H '99 went to a new home in Montana. Hope the new owner enjoys it as much as I did. Obviously, he is shooting it more than I ever did!

ST, have you ever shot a Tompkins with its "zero motion" trigger? I recently acquired one that is out getting refinished as it was rust covered. Bore looks excellent, however.

Terry,
I remember them being advertised when they first came out but never had the opportunity to shoot one, in fact I may have some of the old adds for them around here somewhere, they didn't seem to catch on very well and I've never seen one used in a match.
ST

1898

FOR SET-TRIGGER:
Looking quite a bit more western...1908 OYMPIC TEAM
J.E. GORMAN

Terry, the 99 was shooting very good except about 8" high at 50 yards with the scope. The elevation adjustment was very odd (4 lock screws?) and seemed to be maxed out.
Very interesting rifle!

Terry,

A friend of mine has (or had) a Tompkins. I put about 500 rounds through it some 20 years ago. Very accurate and interesting, but I only shot it at beer cans. I remember the trigger pull or lack thereof. The same chap had a Winchester 63 that went full auto when I shot it. Full of dirt.

When were the Tompkins made (1950?) and how many were made?

Richard

Steve, I owned that 99 years ago. I bought it from John M. Grant, Jr. who showed me the first double rifle I had ever seen, a Woodward underlever, and also sold me the nastiest kicker I have ever shot, a Sedgely Springfield .35 Newton. At that time the 99 had a fat 4x Goerz in a G&H single lever mount. I sold it through SGN for $175, which will give you an idea of how long ago that was. Years later it showed up in the hands of Pennsylvania dealer Bob Gullone, without the Goerz. I was not into 99s then and Terry ended up with it. A very fine and unusual G&H.

Mark:

Do you have any idea what happened to Bob Gullone? He's vanished from the PA gun shows at Allentown, where he was a fixture.

The last time I saw him he looked to be having some health issues.

Rem

Waterman,

I tried to find an e-mail from Mark Benenson which relates to introduction date of the Tompkins, but it must have been part of another message as I don't find it. Late 1940s is my recollection.

There was an article in AR when the Tompkins came out, I think actually by Townsend Whelen or perhaps General Hatcher, one of that group anyway. It was much praised.

That is the 99 we were shooting on Sunday. I'll tell the new owner a thing or two about his rifle!

BTW : I spoke with James Tucker today and he said both he and Monte made and checkered grips for Terry's S&W, different styles of target grips made as ONE-PIECE grips. I you look closely at the two piece grips I made for the first gun posted here you will get a perspective on how difficult that was. Made from pipe burl!

And both James and I have quit making handgun grips for other folks, they just take tooo much time, tooo much money. The last set I made cost $1000 and when I told the client he said, "Don't ever tell me they cost that much, just bill me. I can't believe I would pay that much for a set of grips!" They were bookmatch target grips for a large frame S&W, extensively checkered and piano finished. Many, many, many hours!

Steve,
What is "piano finished"?

Brent

Steve,
Over the years I’ve thought about building a Colt single-action in the style of G&H and Kornbrath circa 1924. I have worked most of this out in my head but learned there is no such thing as a pre-war Colt SAA that is anything but very valuable, never mind there are thousands for sale at any given moment. It would be a 4 ¾” .44-Special, S&W rear sight, Colt New Service target front, Engraving in the same place and style as the very early G&H’s, burl one-piece fleur-de-lis pattern grips, just like the early G&H and in a Patton Holster ;-). Dreams are good and they cost nothing.

Brent, "Piano finish" usually refers to a very high gloss and is achieved with varnish or French polish.

Michael, this is as far as I got!
Bought the gun more than 20 years ago when I was infatuated with SAA's. It was the only one I could afford, a First Gen. with Christy .44 Special barrel and cylinder, my favorite caliber. Had a hole in bottom grip frame for strange grips. I don't think you could find a better layout for SAA grips, I looked at hundreds of pieces of wood, this one has no stain BTW and genuine one-piece not glued together grips. Hand polish and engraving were to follow. The S&W and NS sight ideas weren't in my dream, but I like the idea! And I've got the Patton holster from El Paso Saddlery!
The best thing about it was the very valuable Colt books I bought a the time and still own!


It's not too late! although I've always wondered if it would letter to Pat Garrett!

Pretty nice pistol to say the least.
Thanks for the clarification. Seems obvious in hind sight. But leads me to another question - I think I'll start another thread for it.
Brent

Steven,

Great pistol, again it seems we think along the same lines. That is one of the best sets of SSA grips I have seen and one piece to boot, I'm impressed. Also a blued frame, which I like. As things happen I was at the range today with my SAA clone blasting away and having a great time. All this talk of SAA I realized it had been a while.


I've been admiring this for some time, any idea who did the work?
http://www.hallowellco.com/Custom%20Wells%20Fargo%201849.htm

Michael, here's a photo of my own SA Colt with S&W rear sight. This is a 'J' frame sight because I found that the somewhat larger 'K' and 'N' frame sights were simply too large for the Colt backstrap, without welding a knot onto the top rear of the strap. The elevation adjustment on the larger-frame sights requires a deep slot cut forward into the strap; the cut would have weakened the issue strap unacceptably and I didn't want to add a knot, so I used the smaller sight and have had splendid results with it for almost 40 years now.

This particular SA left the Colt factory in 1894 as a 44-40 with 7.5" barrel and ivory grips. I bought it from Thad Scott around 1970 as a 5.5" 22LR with homemade grips, with some slight amateur metal 'smithing' unfortunately already performed on the strap. I converted it back to original caliber specs with a spare 44 Special cylinder and then shot it as my preferred belt gun and test mule SA for the next 35 years, never even bothered to correct the amateur buffing job. Wore out the replacement NOS Colt 44-40 bbl (~10K rounds), then used it as a 22LR, 22WMR, 357 Mag, 41 Special (a wildcat but a MOST splendid combination!), 45 Colt plus I have at least one more bbl/cylinder set hoarded back for when I get tired of it as-is (G).

I've been rebuilding these 1st-gen SAs since 1970, have restored many dozen junkers to nice shooting condition for myself and a few friends. I really like them but there are an untold number of fakes out there so caveat emptor!

BTW the Colt cylinder throat and bbl groove dimensions are a nightmare of conflicting reports and measurements, but it IS possible to get a good matchup by knowing which generation (1st, 2nd, 3rd) part to substitute. I won't hijack this thread any further but will supply info to anyone requesting it via email or on another thread.
Regards, Joe

Joe, Thanks for the good information, seems a lot of us like the SAA, must have been John Wayne. My problem is that if I ever did what I wanted it would cost more than an original G&H rifle.

Even the ones that have been messed up are now rare "Fitz Specials"

http://www.gunsinternational.com/COLT-SI...un_id=100088626

For you folks who may not know what a Patton holster is, Still made by the folks who made the original one!

http://www.epsaddlery.com/pc-97-12-5-patton-holster.aspx

Joe, I had a Spokane, WA smith ("Spokehandguns" I think) put an S&W sight on a Colt New Service .45 that had its topstrap defaced by a small, sloppy dovetail already. He also used the "J-frame" sight from an S&W "Kit Gun." Worked slick. When a gun is too far gone for the collectors (i.e. a junker), I don't have any problem with "experimentation".

Remington 40X, dunno what happened to Bob Gullone. He has missed the last few Allentown shows. Last time I saw him he had tripped somehow at the show, fell and was in the A'town hospital, I dropped by on the Sunday and he was in pretty good shape and cheerful, that is about a year or so ago. There is an A'town show in mid July and I will ask them. I have his phone number but can wait a couple weeks for the show.

Mike, that's why I never bothered to refinish that old SA, it had already been butchered so much that it looked kinda appropriate as-was, so to speak. I've rebuilt and used lots of SAs over the years but keep coming back to this one. Maybe because I've had it for so long and used it so much, it's definitely become an old friend now.

I bet that J frame sight DID look good on your Colt! I possess the special tooling for the larger K and N sight base but IMO the smaller J sight is often the better choice.
Regards, Joe

Have been paying more attention to my S&W accumulation of late and after whining about how long it takes to make a set of grips... These are for my bulged barreled Beakert .22 Target transformed into an Early-Pre-Kit Gun, with the Single Shot in the background because it has the same rare First Model .32 hand Ejector frame (ya aint hip if you aint got the lingo!)
The English walnut has been book matched, slabbed and milled for the frame recess. These are not slab grips, they overlap and mate on the bottom, another degree of difficulty. (Note walnut holding fixture, it works both in an out of vise.
I post more when further down the road. BTW: I started this project about a decade ago with chopping the brl and welding the sight base back on at 3 1/2".)

Steve,
Interesting stuff thanks for sharing. I got a call from a friend who read this thread a suggested that I not reinvent the wheel. He pointed out the US Fire Arms Company makes a single-action in 44-special with 4 ¾” barrel and target sights. Made like the Colt flattop with a blued frame. I did some checking and seems they are well respected so that looks like what I may start with. Anyone have a set of Roper Grips for a SAA?

I agree Michael, if one wanted a single action these days the US Arms would be the way to go. I recently had a Freedom Arms 5 shot .45 Colt in the shop and it was without a doubt the finest single action revolver I've ever handled, and I hate stainless steel! Smaller than you might think, very well balanced and exquisitly detailed.

The second go-round with the grips has both fit to the frame, peg holes drilled, rough profiled and belt sanded with a taper. Got an almost perfect grain match on the bottom which isn't a given because they are blind fit on the inside to the frame. Took about 1 1/2 hours to inlet the first half circle, then about half that time for the second.
About 8 bench hours so far... They will have to wait till new escutcheons and grip screw arrive next week.
Oh. and measure carefully for the half depth of the frame when milling, after both grips had been fitted, I had to set it back up and remove another .020" to get them to seat flush and together!

I bit the bullet (pun intended) and have a USFA flattop 44-Special on order and should have it in about three weeks. Would anyone care to share their paper-punching loads? I have 210 GC, 235 and 245 plain base moulds but can lay my hands on about any .44 mould to try.

Let the fun begin, I'm very impress with the fit, finish and workmanship on this pistol. It needs a wider front sight, and bigger grips but I like it. Thanks for your advice on this Gary!

This CAN"T be your special order Delivered already!
It's very cool, and I might have a set of one-piece grips for you... if 1st Gen. would fit?

It is and I can't believe it myself, that was FAST!!

Thanks for the offer on the grips but I have a big hand and need something a little longer like a 1860 Army grip. I'm trying to talk my friend into making them, time will tell. My friend the engraver has gone on a sheep hunt and will be gone a month, when he returns I'll get in line to have my name engraved on the backstrap.
A new front sight and some load development is in order.

Michael, Lynton McKenzie (sp?) developed a splendid treatment of the SA backstrap that you might consider for this one. He sculpted an initial on the top front portion of the strap, in the center of the wider part of the top of the strap immediately behind the hammer. He then further extended the semicircular lines of the sides of the top edges so that they met smoothly at the rear in a continuation of their curves, forming a sort of island behind the hammer with the initial in the center. He then developed this theme further by lowering the background and adding various elements of interest such as scrolls and a border and background pebbling. I have his engraving tapes and I believe this is where I saw this treatment, I'll try to get a pic for the group later.
Regards, Joe

Michael, what options did you order to make it a Special Order?

Joe, I'll look forward to the pictures.

Rob, The only thing special was armory blue and an extra front sight blade. They told us 6-8 weeks, after talking with the man who would build it 3-4 weeks than a few days later it was ready! This is the first USFA pistol I have ever handled and I'm impressed.

http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/flattop.asp

Michael, please pardon the stone-age reproduction. These are photos of a VHS video playing on my small shop TV but you can get the idea from the examples shown, albeit however dimly. I was unable to find the specific example of an initial that I had in mind, it may have been a CRS pipe dream. This first one will show the positioning on the backstrap.


The next ones will show the development of the scroll and the recessed, pebbled background that became a hallmark of his later work. I envisioned the same or a similar technique applied to a monogram or initial or other ornament that would lie above the level of regular shooter skin contact and thus be somewhat protected from any undue wear or disfigurement.



If you or your engraver would like to see the entire 3-tape series, we can probably make some arrangement (G). I've found quite a lot of inspiration in his tapes for application in my own scrimshanding work.
Regards, Joe

Thank's Joe! More possibles and I have not decided yet which way to go on that. I'm reminded why I never took up gunsmithing, I just spent a day making a new front sight for the single-action and may have to make yet another one ;-).

This was a great thread! There is a fourth single nut in Spring Lake MI. Charles "Chuck" Logie. He shot in the late forties Olympics, 25m free, and a great collection.Besides the Smiths he had some Luna's and the finest Udo Anschutz single I have ever seen.
Thanks for some memories!
Craig

Lovely to drop in and see all the goodness: of the participants AND the guns. This little niche is one of my few regular stops on the 'Net.

Also, nice to see USFA get some quality recognition. In my book, they are quite the current top notch, for SAA fit and finish. Everything 'clicks up' to battery with bank vault precision. And, they are no slouch in the accuracy dept. Like a can of peanuts, it's hard to stop with just one.

My first was a very early and plain .45 Colt 4 3/4" Rodeo model [now properly aged and holster worn]. At an annual charity fun-shoot get together of pistol and gude gonne folks in Grayling, Mi, the Bragging Rights amount to a 12" steel target on a stand at 270 yards. No bench rest,no prone. Support over sitting knees, with backrest if you wish, ALA Keith.

With the sun just right, I have watched the last third of the slug's silver-flash trajectory in flight, as it dropped steeply into the plate, followed by that satisfying 'tonk' when it was knocked off the stand. While a good, tight modern revolver carrying enough bullet freight can do that regularly, I get a real kick out of doing it with a fixed-sight, Nineteenth Century device.

On the Frontier Sixshooter Community Discussion Board and over in the Gunblast.com write-ups, the Flat Top Target USFA's are highly regarded. Me? I kinda crave the new special-order Sheriff's Model Bisley.

http://www.usfirearms.com/html/bisley-sheriff.htm http://www.usfirearms.com/html/bisley-sheriff.htm

Already have a blued Storekeepers Model [has ejector rod] with a 3 1/2"bbl. Have found that short 'quick' gun likes to shoot right 'under the sights', as Seyfried likes to say.

A custom-shop Bisley Flat-top Target, in a caliber of your choice, would be a wonderful shooting partner and a great legacy to be handed down in a family. Brian Pearce has followed this company closely, and his commentary on same may be found in Rifle/Handloader over the past couple of years.

And, if anyone around the Great Lakes wants to try their hand at plate plinking around July 1st of each year, the Tom Stevenson Memorial Shoot at Grayling is a fine place with lots of freely shared shooting goodies. Included is about everything Freedom Arms, and the assorted 'name' custom folks produce. I must say that another participant's .454 FA in six inch bbl, was the most eerily accurate iron-sighted handgun i have ever shot. Akin to a fine rifle. Note that it was a strong medium loading, and NOT a MAX-+ wrist-wrecker.

The week following the TSMS, Grayling hosts a competitive full-sized cannon shoot. The bumper sticker on one trailer, hauling a Napoleon & caisson read, "If you can read this, you are in range."

Just back from a couple days shooting. The pistol is well made but not without issues.
The first thing I noticed before I fired it was the firing pin tip had a small piece out of it and was sharp, I fired it on a couple of MT cases and punched a hole in the primer. I filed and stoned it off and still would pierce the primer now and then so I worked at that and about free from holes in the primer, I may change primers as well.
With the rear sight centered in the frame the pistol shot about 8-10 inches to the left, I let two other people shoot it and same thing. I did not like the narrow front sight blade and at the suggestion of friend John I made an offset blade to the left, which worked perfectly. When I went to move the rear sight I found than not only could I move it with my thumb I pushed hard on it and went looking for it on the shop floor. A talked with my friend who has one and his has a set screw so I emailed USFA and was told they don’t use set screw anymore. I shimmed it and it works fine.
The ejector rod would not move more than a couple inches, I took it apart and found the spring bound up, an easy fix.
After two shots the ejector housing screw becomes loose, I’ll have to locate a nylon “O” ring because I need to remove the housing if I want to file some more on the front sight.
I felt that this was a lot of things wrong for a pistol with the reputation and price they have. Our shooting season is coming to a close so I chose to take care of everything myself and not shipping it back and forth to USFA.

More later I have to go clean guns.

Thanks Steven for the peak at part of your bench and the great single shot along with the shift towards single actions.

Interesting review Michael, thanks for the honesty, ouch. I'd hope the skewed sights stay on line at different ranges. Glad you're willing to work with it. That'd be an easy one to put out of sight out of mind.

Now for the shooting, used a lot of ammunition while filing down the front sight to shoot to point of aim. These I fired from rest sitting at the bench. This was 20 shots and two different weight bullets. All shooting was at 20 yards.

Same deal but offhand, shoots a little higher. I've not yet found the load I'm going to use. I will have one target load and one carry load and two different front sight blades. That high one is a low one from another target.

Thinned down the side of the front sigh blade to see more light on each side. With John's help I'll open up the rear sight a little this week.

My friend Don who is a fine hand with pistol shot this, 6 O'clock hold. As you can see the pistol seems to shoot just fine the owner needs some practice. That's ten @ 20 yards.

Mike,

Please make sure that you tell USFA's boss, Donnelly, exactly what problems were present and what remedies transpired. It would be a real shame if a Marque that has achieved such a good record, was allowed to fall into the rather dismal QC situation which you describe.

Success and production has to be balanced against such lapses. Sometimes the boss man needs to be made sharply and pointedly aware of what is happening [or not]to his pride and joy -- before it leaves the factory.

I'd philosophically expect such issues with lesser and imported makes. For USFA, it is damn near inexcusable. Mebbe it's time they quite flailing around trying develop some of the odd projects recently launched, and get back to building the basics.

A person can still find a S&W pre-lock, case-hardened trigger and hammer, older Mountain Gun in .41,.44 and .45 for around the 700-800$ mark. That's about half the price of USFA's classics. And they are really nice shooters, ordinarily.

Mr. Donneley, are you listening? [rhetorically asking];~`)

This is most troubling to hear, I always believed USFA was improving not sliding backwards.
Thanks for the update, too bad Freedom Arms does not make a blued or cased hardened gun! I love my stainless guns, but do like the look of the old style.

Craig

John,

I wrote a two-page letter Mr. Doug Donnelly outlining the problems I had and what I did to correct them.

In fairness to USFA when I wrote about the loose rear sight they ask that I send it back and they would "Tighten" it up and also told me that they were closed from Aug 31 to Sept 11.

I'll await Mr. Donnelly's replay before I decide the next step.

Mike,

It'll be interesting to hear the reply. I have seen pics of some phenom groups shot with a 7 1/2 long bbl'd .45 Colt,using a pistol vice.

I believe that was on Gunblast.com, a few years ago. As well, I don't think that Brian Pearce is much given to spreading cow manure, either. I doubt that he'ds be thrilled to hear of a QC decline in the product behind which he has put a good deal of positive press and product development input.

However, an entrepreneur can become bored with mere 'running' of a successful product, and let his attention wander to new and exciting projects. I have to remind myself that sometimes it the humble and repeatable routine, upon which the cash flow depends.

Off to see Mammon,for some bit.

Anyone looking for a couple of S&W single shots for a project, check out Cherry's # 22346 and 22397.

Craig

An update if you could call it that. I wrote Mr. Donnelly a two page letter outlining the problems with my pistol on the 23rd of August, today the 23rd September still no answer. Last week I wrote the service department via email outlining the problems and received no answer. I've run out of good will regarding USFA so I sent the pistol back, told them to repair all the problem or replace it.

Michael,

I have been looking at some USAF guns and remembered this thread from last year. Can you tell us what the eventual outcome was?



thanks,

Rob

Some time after I sent the pistol to them my wife and came home and found it sitting on the front porch.

Shooting season was over so first thing this spring I shot it and it still shoots to the left. We made a new offset front sight and moved the rear over to the right so now on target, I need to work with the loading.

The magazine housing does not fall off, I fixed the firing pin, they tightened the rear sight but it's still a lot easier to move than I think it should be so I may install a set screw.

It cost about $75 to send the pistol back from Alaska and it was money poorly spent. I am done with USFA, from now on I will take care of any problems myself.

I was going to have my name engraved on the backstrap, I may have a lemon engraved.

Very sorry to hear, Mike!

Having revived this once popular thread, (all the photos shrunk!!) I"ll show off some acquisitions...
I've gone on a tear for grips since I found out I didn't have to make ALL my own!
60-70's vintage Herrett thumb rest on 1970's K-22:

.22 Kit Gun with older Herrett.

30's .22 Outdoorsman with 40's(?) Fitz plastic(!) thumbrest, very comfortable!

J-frame M-36, .38 with Fitz plastic grips.

Tour de force custom Keith Brown fancy walnut on M-13, 3" .357!

Have another set of Keith Brown custom target grips on order for K-frame!
And am bidding on Sanderson thumb rest targets today!

Neat stuff, did Roper make grips for the SAA?

Check this guy out, nice stuff but most for S&W.

http://www.classiccarvedgrips.com/

PS: I was watching a S&W 24-3 4" 44-Special at auction but it went beyond my comfort zone. I was thinking of one with a set of Ropers.

I think this style of grip would look right on a SAA.

The reason I am interested is I finally got my NY pistol permit. Took a while to get everything done and for them to process the application but it arrived last Thursday and I was able to pick up some guns I had gotten from a friends estate that were being held by the local PD.

I started with a Python that apparently has some nice custom grips (or so I am told over at the Colt forum) and a nice 1942 Woodsman Sport that by friend used for trapping (yes, there is trapping in NY) when he was a boy on the 1950's.

Suddenly I am looking at things like S&W single shots and SAA's...

Yup, that's Keith, I've got the Combat set pictured above and a Roper type target set on order. I'm planning on doing a story about his work.

Missed a pair of Ropers with a nice K-22 for $500 a couple weeks ago, almost made me cry : >(

The DA Colts above are probably factory, I've heard of a set of SAA Roper, but not seen.

(Didn't get the Sandersons :>( )

Although this is a very old thread, and at least three of the guys are now gone, I thought I'd just bring it back up for the edfication of any who weren't here the first time around.

Thanks you Terry, that brings back some memories. I recommended USFA to Michael and he had a bad experience as luck would have it. He kept telling me that he would "cash" that in someday!! I miss that man in the worst way and find myself picking up the phone to call him. This also reminds me of just how many unfinished projects I have. Thanks again.

�and I have continued to collect S&W target revolvers including a Triplelock Target that Michael found for me. His contact put me together with a fellow in Pennsylvania and after much internal debate I purchased the single most expensive Smith I had purchased up to that point.

It's a dandy, shown here with 1940s Sanderson walnut thumb rest grips. It was special ordered, has a three-digit serial number, shipped in 1908 and has appreciated considerably in value since I've owned it. Thanks Michael!

Steven,

Very nice Triplelock. That is perfect user shooter in that configuration. You can shoot and enjoy it and some appreciation in value. I just picked up a wadcutter .44 mould and am looking forward to trying it out.

Gary