Found an early Mauser sporter by Rob. Schlegelmilch, Suhl. A M-98 Mauser, paneled and keyed stock, double-set, oct/round ribbed, horn butt, schnable tip, round knob grip and it's all in pieces & parts (I'm touching bluing at this moment). Here's the marks:





This last being an enlargement of a stylized K and looking like some kind of maker's (barrel) mark?!?

I know the 7.7 is the bore (slugs about .320"), the R.S. is probably Schleglemilch's mark, the 480 is an assembly number on most all parts, and the crown N is nitro. What I don't know is the E.W., The I, or the K.
I assume this is pre WWI? Any ideas?
BTW, I've got G. Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks, is there another book I should have? There were some good proof marks articles in Gun Digest, but I don't remember the years?
I post pics of the rifle sometime next week.
Thanks to all!
Steve

It seems there were several Schlegelmilchs in Suhl who were barrel makers and gunmakers. I can't seem to find a Robert but will check some more books. That number on the bottom looks to be the Commercial Mauser number and if it is the action was made circa 1909.

If you are looking at the 21143, that is the serial # on all the action parts excepting all of the bolt (bolt, shroud safety) which has #1738 and I would believe has been replaced.
Bob Jones mentions a ? & Schlegelmilch as desirable on his website, and in a conversation with Martin Hagn the other day, he recognized the name as a Suhl maker, but didn't have time to research.
I assume "Suhler-waffefabrik?" means "Gunmakers of Suhl"?
I'll have it all back together next week.
Thanks,
Steve

Thieme & Schlegelmilch made "Nimrod" action (trigger plate) doubles, both guns and rifles.

Was "Rob." the same man as in the partnership?

Good one I had not thought of that but it was Adolph Thieme and Friedrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch.

And yet another one!
http://www.google.com/patents?id=izRoAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=356378#PPA1,M1

Several sources give Robert Schlegelmilch(pre-WWI) as being from Meiningen( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiningen ), which was a mining town and from memory I believe Agricola referred to it as Romhildus, and my first guess is that he was also a retailer? Suhl date marks began circa September 1923 and I'd guess this one to fall between 1912 and pre-WWI. The "Crown" beside the "Crown" over "N" is missing the "G" due to wear. Also beside the barrel lug the "Crown" beside the "Crown" over "N" above the "7,7mm" is missing a letter, possibly a "R", "B"(probaby not but isn't "Crown" over "B" found on some Mausers?) or a "G". I've seen/read/heard that the sylized "K" in a jagged circle is the the mark for Krupp steel and I've seen it many times and am just parroting the relationship. Also there was a Reinhard Schlegelmilch, but I believe he was only a stocker just prior to WWII. Let me ponder on the puzzle.

The "waffenfabrik" is for weapons factory and here's a site with a little info that show just how interconnected, Funk & all prior to WWI, the Suhl makers/retailers were: http://www.bryndumlund.dk/index.php?id=3 .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think I know who made my drilling now!
I have a turn-of-the-century german hammerless drilling with no maker's name on it. It does however have the initials "RS" in a couple of places, and "EW" as well on the bottom of the rifle barrel.
Thanks for posting those pictures. One step closer to finding who made my 12x12x9.3*72R drilling.
Thanks,
Lou M

I guess the "E.W." to be one of the Wagner barrel making boys like Edmund Wagner(Zella St. Blasii or Zella-Mehlis) or Ernst Fritz Wagner of Ernst Fritz Wagner & Company, Suhl. But there was also E. Wahl of the Wahl boys who were master gunsmiths in Zella St. Blasii/Zella Mehlis). Caspar Schlegelmilch, a gun barrel maker in Suhl worked for Ernst Wilhelm Schlegelmilch but I don't think Schlegelmilch would have used his first 2 initials. Too many solutions for not enough equations.

I think the "480" to be Mauser's original number.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

These elegant half octagon full ribbed barrels are quite common on German and Austrian sporting rifles and presumably were not outrageously costly. In the 1950s Austrian barrels of this description were imported into the US by Flaig's in Pennsylvania and they were not that much more expensive than round barrels. But today if you want one it has to be cut individually from the blank by one of our top machinist gunsmiths and the price is a couple of thousand bucks.

LouM, I wouldn't be so sure, but it's a start.

Rainey, the 480 is an assembly number that is stamped on most all of the parts.
Sure would be great to have a book of marks, I've seen one for later German work when they were trying to disguise who was making what. This probable pre-WWI era should be less codified.

Mark, I've got three of these style barrels, current manufacture by Ralph Martini and they are very expensive, but Ralf will make what ever suits the project for scope mounts, sight placement etc.

Hope to have the rifle back together next week for some photos.

Steven:

I too would very much like a book on marks with definitions but evidently once the product was out the door the manufacture didn't think anyone would be interested in the info on the initials. I've seen the "E.W." before and need to make some more comparisions. If the "480" wasn't on the tube, I might guess that ole Rob. purchased the reciever in the white from Mauser and purchased the tube in the rough from Sauer and made the barrel. Circa 1890, Sauer had a monopoly on Krupp tubes and if yours had the Krupp ring stamps, it still might be the case that Sauer made the tube in the rough and "E.W." did the fine work. The more I dig about the marks, the deeper the pit of marks becomes. It's akin to digging in sand or quicksand. It is interesting that around the mines and areas of raw materials that they gun making centers developed. For quality control of early Prussian military longarms you see many inhouse and crowned inspectors marks in fraktur or gothic script along with the proof eagles of Beschussadler neuer Art for post 1813 and pre-1891/1893 marks that are found on Dreyse and Mauser-Dreyse models. The crowned gothic script inspectors marks may be from earlier French occupation. Early all most of the weapons were produced at government arsenals at Danzig, Erfurt, Spandau and Amberg(Bavarian Arsenal) with support of private contractors like Greenwood & Batley Limited(Leeds), C.G. Haenel(Suhl), Mauser of course, Osterreichishch Waffen.(Steyr), National Arms & Ammunition Company Limited(Birmingham), Sp. & Sr.(Spangenberg & Sauer-Suhl) and V.C. Schilliing(Suhl). Erfurt is the result of Essen's rifle makers moving first to Saar in the Ruhr circa 1840 and on to Erfurt. Essen is where you'll find Krupp and the Krupp folk could also have been weapons makers before going totally to steel. Spandau was established in 1855 as a result of the Potsdam facility, which was founded in 1722, moving to Spandau. And of course the earlier unknown Peter Paul Mauser worked at the Wurttembert Government Arsenal/Armoury at Oberndorf. Having the employee records as well as subcontractor info would be of great benefit but it looks as if we'll just have to continue to guess and be awe struck by the puzzles.

I got on a tangent but was meaning to note that Mauser, Sauer, Simson, etc. had their own inhouse marks prior to the establishment of proofhouses circa 1890. I can't say if the same eagle proof mark had the same meaning or if there was some guy hired to spend a week a month at each facility administering the same stamp. The early stamps on the underside of the tubes ahead of the flats are quite interesting. On some Sauer longarms there is a lower case gothic "g" beside a gothic "K" and then a "H". The "g" could also be an upper case G atop a lower case and might stand for Gesetz Geschutz or registered design. I'm curious if the early pattern welded tubes utilized Krupp iron & steel thus the gothic script "K". According to W. von Menges, barrels on the German rifle Model 1849 had "Barrel browned, octagonal to the sight, then conical to the muzzle." Then later the barrels were polished instead of browned to show the slightest amount of oxidation so that they would be maintained. So would browned have the same definition as we know it today? The word "STAHL" atop the barrel in front of the receiver didn't appear to circa 1860-1870.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Steve, from time to time one of the 1950s Flaig sporters with a fancy barrel shows up at an auction house or a gun show, in an American calibre, usually an '06, .270 or .257. The Flaig stocks are quite undistinguished and the guns usually go for under a thousand bucks, sometimes well under. For anyone interested it is worth throwing the stock away and keeping the fancy barrel and the good FN commercial action it is most often screwed into.

I'd be interested to see what anyone can make of these marks from a WWII bring back that a friend gave me. I've been curious as to what model 98 action they started with. Obviously a military, could it be post war?




The gun has no marks other than someones name written in ink in the barrel channel.

That's a very nice rifle Rob, and here is the Rob. Schlegelmilch returned. Wouldn't say it was restored, or refinished, more like refurbished. There was one crack behind the tang, more of a wood stress crack than recoil caused, so I installed a dutchman with aproximate grain match. As you can see, the wood was very dark in this area.



I don't like to strip stocks but soaked this one to raise (some) dents, lightly sanded the stock, didn't try to get all of th blemishes out, some were quite deep. Finished the wood with (Herter's) French Red stock Filler and top coated with boiled linseed, which I very rarely use. Had to reinlet everything after bathtub soak and then re-cut the checkering.



It was quite a chore getting around the back of the 'bag' grip, but that's the way I like to checker my own stocks. Re-cutting the narrow borders was a bit dicy, and mostly done with a V gouge.



I cleaned all of the metalwork, re-rust blued the barrel without removing all of the dings, and heat blued many or the small parts withour complete repolishing.



The rifle has all the feaures: 25" oct/round ribbed barrel, short keyed uncheckered forend with schnable, paneled stock, checkered horn buttplate (now filled worm holes), semi unusual round knob pistol grip, color case hardened action and bottom metal with lever release (unhinged) floorplate, double set triggers and nicely shaped and proportioned cheekpiece.


The Only thing that had been 'gunsmithed' was the folding-leaf rear sight (which I think is installed backward but the matted surface in to the front this way and the witness mark aligns) The bolt may have been replaced as it's numbers don't match (all match on the bolt and all on the action, just not each other).



I built a similarly styled small ring Mauser in gunsmithing school in 7x57, and a Krag with this type of stock , but never owned an original. I'm quite pleased to own this one.



It has cast-off and toe-out in the stock and I've now got to come up with some ammo to shoot it.



It's a .318 bore, but my buddy Tim has dies, and a swage die to squeeze .323. bullets to size. It's beem a lot of fun and along with this new board, I've renewed my enthusiasm for these old sporters.
Thanks, Steve

Nice work Steve, it's always nice to see these older sporters that need work have it done right. I've been thinking of starting a thread on restoration work. Terry found a G&H at a auction that had been buffed until all the holes were dished out,the corners all rounded off then hot blued. The stock had something sticky (true-oil??) which grew into little mounts of gooey dirt.

Thanks Mike, this one was relatively easy in the grand scheme of things. I've done some, in the past when I had more energy and enthusiasm, that were badly buffed and heavily sanded. The hours seem to drag on forever with those jobs.

Steven,
You might find this thread of interest
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...=true#Post72047

Thanks much Story, do you know of any connection betweeen Ernst and Rob.?
I'm assuming the Mauser is pretty early for a M-98 from the proofs (?!?) and wonder if Rob is the elder?
Found anything further Recoil Rob?

No Steve, the marks on my gun are pretty sparse, I'm fairly certain no recognizable name was involved with my gun, I thought someone could tell me more about the origin of the action from those marks.

Rob

Thanks for checking in Rob, I just with I had some bullets to shoot this puppy! We have what is called a "B" tag in MT (second deer) and the SCI would take the meat for the underprivelaged.
But my Springfield sporter is sighted in!
Springfield-Mauser, springfield-mauser......
]

When you can't decide..... Springfield-Mauser :-).

Michael, could you possibly elaborate a bit, or a lot, on that rifle.

It reminds me of the Sedgley-Springfield-Enfields a little.

This is the second one I have seen over the years, both were G&H. What we have here is a Mauser that has had a 1903 Springfield cocking knob added. I've only the picture and have not taken it apart. It's embarrassing how long I had the pictures before I realized it was a Mauser I was looking at.

They should have added a Springfield triggerguard and floorplate while they were at it.

When it's well done it's hard sometimes to catch the improvement or modification. I looked at a G&H Winchester Model 54 one time and did not notice until later when I saw a picture that they had used a 1903 trigger guard.

I used one on a Mauser and was very pleased with the way it turned out. I think it was in Dunlap's book where I read about doing it and decided to try it. If I'm not mistaken Koshollek used them on 17 Enfield actions also. I think Linden's book on the 17 Enfield shows one being used.

It helps to review/reflect from time to time to see what you didn't know and still don't know. But Robert Schlegelmilch seems to have been a principal in Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner. And I guess Metzner to be one of Albin, Georg or Max or the possibility exits that he was Albin Georg Max Metzner and there were a couple generations. At any rate Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner was dissolved in 1901 and Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch emerged and existed till 1923. The 2 Louis Kelber forge marks(K in a jagged circle) have to be about the best I've ever viewed, evidently with a large amount of effort in application or very little wear from the tube being profiled/worked. Those are typical forge marks and the "R.S." set of initials, or the other set, completed the firearm. This example looks to be a WWI or possibly post WWI example and hints at the fact that an example with a tube or tubes stamped "R.S." could be valid for Robert Schlegelmilch of Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch up till 1923, with a proof date being in 1924 or possibly later.

SDH: I hope it is all right to post these pics on other threads.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Fine with me Raimey.
I gestimated this rifle to be pre-1910 proof(?)
What's a "Suhler"?
I caution myself to be very careful with attribution(!)

Best,
Steve

Here's another Kelber barrelmaker signature, Wilhelm Kelber, quite possibly the son of Louis. My understanding is the K inside the W indicates he fitted the barrel to the action and submitted it to the proofhouse in September 1928. The information I have is that Wilhelm was the last of the barrelmaker family in Suhl.

Art

With the "mm" stamp, I'd say it was post 1910 if thru the Suhl proofhouse and possibly during WWI, but of course there are exceptions. I'd say Suhler is that of Suhl; i.e., Weapon's maker of Suhl.

Art:
I'm just not confident on the heart shaped/encircled "K" by a "W" being the mark for the bolting of the tube to the action as noted by Axel Eichendorff, who is/was a Forester in Germany and was born in 1948 I think. Almost all other forges/tube makers had a double stamp noting the tube was forged in their shop. Early on the initials denoting the craftsman who bolted the tubes to the action were closer to the action and as mechanization played much larger role, the initials migrated toward the forend lug and became script. Axle Eichendorff and I have been and are in discussions and of course I would default to him if he had a reason. There are certain tasks performed in making a tube such as forging the tube, drilling a pilot hole, cutting the rifling, and finally profiling the tube. A specific stamp may have denoted each process. Also, sometimes the rifling was cut at the very last. At present, I'm leaning toward the caveman stamp on the flats being associated with profiling/finishing the tubes. But something had to denote cutting the rifling.


The following is Suhler Gewehrfabrik in 1892 and depicts a few tasks:



So if there was an example and an order form, by viewing the marks we might just answer the question of what stamp meant what. Then again we may never know???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I am thinking that is who the information came from. Does he go by kuduae or post on other boards? I posted this picture a while back looking for information on the marks. If there are other possibilities I'm always interested in learning. There is so much that has been lost.

Art

Art:

Yes, kuduae is Axel. I don't think he is onboard for the "S" in a lozenge being Schilling's forge mark and I don't know if anyone knows what the "Crown" over "F"(fraktur) beside the load data is. It sure would have been nice to interview say Peter Weiss, proofmaster at Zella-Mehlis, in the late 1960s or 1970 to answer all the questions. There's a school of though out there that as PeteM has suggested that these marks were only know between craftsman-proofmaster-firearms merchant and the end user really didn't give a tinker's damn about the whole lot as long as the powder ignited and the ejecta went out the end of the tube. All craftsmen eventually became firearms merchants if they lived to a ripe old age. So to have enough unknowns for the equations, such as the individual tasks in making an example, we need an example actually made or finished by a specific craftsman and the work order. So we know the maker, we know the subcontractors and we have the marks. Sounds simple, huh? Fredrik Franzen has access to some work orders, specifically Merkel, which is a start. We know most of the players but I still think there are a few floating out there that haven't been discovered. But that's what makes it a passion.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse