Hello All,

Please help explain the marking I found on this 450-400 EXPRESS 3-1/4" Double Rifle.

Based on the style, and the serial number, and the mfg date, I think this might be a low-grade Francotte and would like to know if anyone can confirm this.

Features:
Reinforced Frame
Bushed Firing Pins
Engraved
7 lbs 11oz (7 lbs 15 oz loaded)
14-3/4" LOP
Greener Cross Bolt w/ Rib Ext
non-automatic safety
26" Bbls
2-Leaf Express Site (100 / 200)


Markings on the barrels (see pics) = "ACIER MARTELE" - "958" - "1462" - ".450-400 EXPRESS 3-1/4" - "JAMIN" - "STAR / T" - "CROWN / JF" - "10.1" - "EL" - "B.BLINDEE"










Markings on the action between the firing pins (see pics) = "BE" ? ? monogram

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Proofed in Belgium in 1928

Crown R designated Rifled Barrel

acier martelé is hammered or forged steel

B Blindee is OK to use with jacketed bullets

http://www.hallowellco.com/b-blindee.htm

Jamin is the barrel maker

Mike

possibly
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20b/a%20bernard%20gb.htm

Hello skeettx,

Thanks for the reply.

Based on this, and other Forums, here is what I've found out so far. Does all this sound correct?

Any comments or corrections would be appreciated.

JAMIN = Marcel Jamin = Gun Maker
Crown/JF = Jean Falla = Barrel Maker
Acier Martele = Hammer Forged Steel
.450/400 EXPRESS 3-1/4" = Caliber
B.BLINDEE = Proofed with Jacketed Bullet
g = Date Code = 1928
Lion/P.V. = Nitro Proof Mark
*/T = Inspector Mark
*/P = Inspector Mark
10.1 = Bore dia.
958 = Assembly number
1462 = Serial number
Monogram = Unknown ? = perhaps retailer ?

I would say Janin is the barrel finisher and Falla the tube maker
Perhaps and that would leave room for the monogram to be the gunmaker.

Mike

Hello skeettx,

Thanks for the reply.

Unless the monogram is from the retailer who sold the rifle. ?

???
Start looking

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a%20a%20artisans%20identifies%20fr.htm

or get the BOOK

http://www.littlegun.be/livres/a%20a%20livre%20alain%20general.htm

or ASK the Author
http://www.littlegun.be/index.htm

Hello skeettx,

Thanks for the reply.

I've looked through all those pages on the internet. I found nothing.

I've now emailed him direct to ask for help.

Thanks

Thanks to all that helped with information.

Based on the latest information from Axel E., he suggested Braeckers as being the possible maker;

Ets. Braeckers SA (=societe anonyme = plc), Rue du Crucifix 21 -39, Herstal. .... listed as "Fabricants des armes" = gunmaker.

I searched the internet and found this example. Although the pictures are not very clear, You can still make out the name "Braeckers" and "Herstal".



In addition, There is a monogram on the top of the rib that matches the monogram on my rifle.

Although the monogram is typically referenced as "EB", I think perhaps it might be the letters "BCC" which could stand for "Braeckers, Charles & Cie". (two opposing "C"'s with the letter "B" intertwined ? ? ? )



Also, there is a small distinct feature on the two actions that match on the guns. A small "raised" island that acts as a "stop" for the lever. I have not yet found this feature by any other maker.



As always, your comments are welcome.

Thanks again to all.

For those that would like to see some additional photos of the rifle - here are a few.

Nice find, Buckstix
I have a Ets Braekers double from 1926 in 500NE. (It's in the back of the safe)
I would say that it is light for caliber (below 10lbs IIRC). Yours certainly appear to be light too.
Braekers made or resold great stuff.
I think I have a catalog. I'll see what I can dig out.
Best regards,
WC-

Hello WildCattle

Thanks for the reply.

Even though this rifle only weighs about 8 pounds, its' superb balance makes recoil very tolerable. Tested loads of 2,000 fps with a 400g bullets have a felt recoil of about as much as a 300 Win Mag. This one is really a lot of fun to shoot.

I would sure like to see your catalog when you find it. I always try to keep as much information as possible about my guns.

May purchase your own here:

https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=113

I'm not positive that Charles Braekers & Cie finished it nor were the end retailer as ever Braeker I've viewed had two serial numbers on the water-table. Either Charles Braekers & Cie was sourcing a concern or Charles Braekers & Cie was being sourced.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hello ellenbr

Thanks for the reply.

Regardless, I'm sure the monogram on my rifle is that of Charles Braekers & Cie.

Also, I have a catalog on order - thank you for the source.

Yes, unequivocally, Ètablissement Braekers Societe Anonyme à Herstal - Liége did have a large part in it.

Someone kindly uploaded a 1926 catalogue & the example of which you are a custodian is a MODÈLE 701 - Carbine Express Type Anglais or is it a MODÈLE 711?:

http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/84225/1/Herstal_Liege_Manufacture_1926.pdf

Anyone have the MODÈLE 801 - Fusil Paradox?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hello ellenbr

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think my rifle is either the 701 or the 711. The 1926 catalog shows that both of those models "do not" have the extended rib. In that catalog only the shotguns are shown with the extended rib feature.

It will be interesting to see if there is a better match to my gun when my 1929 catalog arrives.

I would guess this is 'mid-grade' gun. Many double rifles were made on boxlock actions (with double bite and often a third fastener. The boxlock was believed to be a bit stronger than the barlock sidelock actions and it has the reputation of durability and service in the far parts of the world - which is why DRs were so popular.

Hello Chukarman

Thanks for the reply.

I agree, and that's why this one is still in use 90 years after it was born.

Buckstix: you are a magnet for interesting rifles!

Hello steve white,

Thanks for the reply.

I keep trying to find them. That's what keeps me going.

I am looking to but a Francotte single barrel trap in good condition. SN 81283. Can anyone tell me anything about it?

Sorry, poor typing. I meant to say, I am looking at a Francotte single barrel trap, 12 ga., SN 81283, with intention of buying it. Can anyone tell me anything about this gun, when it was made, anything else?

Hello Mike Scelzo
Welcome on your first postings

When made is easy if you look at the proof marks
http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

Griffin & Howe may be able to give birth history

Bob Beach is the fella
http://secure.griffinhowe.com/Research-getserial.cfm?make=2216

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/a-francotte.88029/

http://griffinhowe.com/

Update:

Because Factory Ammo is hard to find and very expensive, my 450-400-3-1/4" has been sent out for re-regulating to my favorite hand-load.

I'm also having the ventilated recoil pad replaced with a red Decelerator pad while its being re-regulated.

I'll be posting some targets in the near future.

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***** UPDATE ***** JULY 20, 2018 *****

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Well I've received the rifle back yesterday. Total time was less than 9-weeks from when it was sent away for its face-lift. Since the rifle was almost 90 years old, I decided to add a number of things to the list of updates for the rifle.

The top & bottom ribs were fully re-laid and the barrels were fully re-joined. The rifle was regulated to my load specs and the barrels were rust-blued. In addition, a new solid pad was installed to replace the ugly ventilated one and LOP was set at 14-3/8". Both front and rear sites were rebuilt, and lastly the frame hinge was tightened on face.

This rebuild should carry the rifle for the next 90+ years.

here are some pics.

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BEFORE AND AFTER

Forgotten who said only accurate rifles are interesting. I admire what you've done.

Buckstix, nice rifle - congratulations!

Just curious how is the recoil? What would you compare it to?

Thanks!

That seems like a relatively light load. What kind of velocity do you get out of it? My 1902 Webley likes 80 grains of 4350 with the old .049 jacket 400 grain Barnes for 2085 fps and 84 grains of 4350 with the 300 grain Barnes for 2222 fps. I have tried 60 to 68 grains of 3031 with the 400 but 4350 was better.

Hello King Brown,

Thanks for the reply.

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Hello 1cdog,

Thanks for the reply.

Recoil with this light bullet is nearly the same as a 7 pound 30-06 shooting a 165g bullet.

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Hello HalfaDouble,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it is a relatively light load at under 1800 fps. This is intended to be my "fun" double for medium game. With heavier bullets at higher velocities, the groups un-cross. I have over a dozen other "BIG" doubles (up to and including a 700NE) for serious work.

Buckstix, that makes a lot of sense. Beautiful and fun to shoot, too. Reregulating would have definitely been necessary. Where did you have it done?

Hello HalfaDouble,

Thanks for the reply.

All the work was done by Ken Owen.

******************** UPDATE **********************

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I acquired a vintage Westley Richards hard case and adapted it for this little double.

It was a very well used case with lots of character repairs. Unfortunately, the lid was was missing the top latch. (only the 2 rivets remained) So, I bought an old ragged leather suitcase on eBay for $10.90, and asked the seller to cut-off the latch and send it, and toss the rest of the suitcase into the garbage. (the seller actually sent the bottom lock assembly also, along with the original key that he found inside the suitcase when cutting out the top latch)

When the latch arrived, I did a little fitting and added it to the WR case as shown below.

The WR case has a gorgeous old parchment label, and its embossed with the Westley Richards, Birmingham address and slogan. All-in-all a good match and a perfect fit for this little 450-400 double.



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