Is it difficult to lighten the trigger pulls on an LC. Or more precisely how are trigger pulls adjusted? Is this something a moderately knowledgeable amatuer like myself could accomplish, or is this best left to a professional like Buck Hamlin?

Thanks,
John

The trigger pulls on an Elsie can, of course be adjusted, but they are certainly not what you would properly call adjustable. Adjustment is made by modifying the sears in relation to how they lie when in bent. Metal is removed by filing or added where necessary. Make it too light and the gun will double. Expert knowledge and experience is absolutely required...Geo

OR use some teflon based lube on the sears.
A bit of Break-free CLP might surprise you

Mike

You can possibly learn, but you must be willing to mess up to learn. I taught myself and have done many trigger jobs on box locks, sidelocks, rifles and pistols. Practice on a parts gun, so that when you mess up you won't be out anything. Don't make your first attempt on an important gun. Get a good quality optivisor, or other magnifier, and spend much time operating the lock parts in order to understand the operation. That's how you learn. Read all you can about it so that you learn the geometry and the relationships of the parts to each other. Get the right stones and files, and be patient. Go slow. Steel is much easier to remove than to replace. I may spend several hours on a trigger getting it like I want, or I may get it right in 30 minutes. They're all different.

SRH

Stan,
I read your reply with interest, very good advice.
Whilst on the subject have you ever read a good informative article or book on adjusting trigger pulls?
I have an extensive library of gun books , gunmaking, gunsmithing and brands , everyone brushes lightly over setting triggers , with the caution that doing it wrong can be expensive and or dangerous , but not one book advises on doing it correctly????
Comments please.
Salopian (Peter)

Setting trigger pull weights is a thing I do try to keep away from because sometimes all logic goes out of the window. Though what I did find is the best way to arrive at the correct weight and put an end to what starts to become a correct weight guessing game, is to invest in one of these devices. With this you get the correct weight each and every time

I agree with about everything Stan said, and also agree with Salopian about the lack of good information on improving trigger pulls on shotguns. I too have a pretty extensive library of gunsmithing books, and several go into some detail on doing trigger jobs and adjustments on revolvers and pistols or bolt action rifles, but very little is said about our doubles. I've worked on a lot of them, and had the good fortune to learn while still in high school just how dangerous it can be if you screw up. That happened when I adjusted the sear engagement on my Model 700 Remington groundhog rifle, and was proud of how much lighter I was able to make the pull. My pride went out the window when I was trying a new load at the range, and the gun went off as soon as I closed the bolt. I was there alone, and no-one witnessed my screw-up, but I shuddered when I realized my lack of knowledge could just have easily led to me accidentally shooting someone I was hunting with. Even a lot of so-called gunsmiths have no business working on triggers, as I learned when my uncle finally retired an old double that kept right on doubling after several trips to different local gunsmiths. That gun was part of the reason my Dad, uncles, and cousins all preferred pumps and semi's.

I'd imagine that the greatest percentage of old guns that tend to double is due to wear of improperly hardened sears and sear notches. But I'd guess that there are quite a few that were actually made worse by someone who didn't have the correct tools or knowledge, but attempted to fix them anyway. There are many factors that dictate or affect trigger pull including original design, geometry, the sear angles, the strength of hammer and trigger spring tension that must be overcome or released, and the hardness and microscopic smoothness of the sear surfaces and bearing points. Really good trigger smith's who may specialize in certain brands or guns will often use specialized jigs so they can see what's happening to make certain their sear angles are perfect, neither camming a hammer back slightly against the main spring before release, or having an incorrect angle that could lead to an accidental discharge. They may lighten springs without going light enough to cause misfires and light primer strikes. Take too much off of the thin skin of a case hardened sear, and you have just created a future problem when the softer steel underneath quickly wears, The work calls for the correct tools and polishing stones, and the precision of a watchmaker. But a watchmaker doesn't have to be concerned about someone getting killed if he screws up. For doing this type of work on one, two, or three guns, the investment in time, tools, books, Optivisors, etc. probably won't be justified over paying a good pro to do it, even if you have the talent and patience to learn through practice. An L.C. Smith lock, without an intercepting sear, can be particularly dangerous if you do it wrong:

http://www.hallowellco.com/intercepting_sear.htm

sage advice all. not something i should attempt. now to find a smith who can work on LCs.

thanks all,
John

You've already mentioned Buck Hamlin, who is highly regarded for his work on L.C. Smith's, Lefevers, and other vintage American Guns. Another L.C. Smith guy who seems to get a lot of praise from customers is Jerry Andrews of Moundsville, WV. And if you've seen some of the shotgun work posted here by Dewey Vicknair of Lititz, Pennsylvania, you will recognize a man who is not satisfied with anything less than perfection.

My advice was not intended to discourage you or anyone from doing trigger work. It was only intended to make you aware that it requires a lot of knowledge, and perhaps the most meticulous talent in any part of gunsmithing. Settling for anything less than perfection could result in an accidental discharge that could be simply embarrassing when your gun fires as you close it on the skeet range. Or it could go off easily and unexpectedly from a minor bump, or jar, or fall while hunting. Bad news if it happens to hit your dog or hunting buddy.

Most often, the jar that sets a barrel off with no finger on the trigger is when a double gun doubles as the other barrel is fired. In that instance, at least the gun is typically pointed at a target or other safe direction, and the damage is limited to a bruised shoulder or cheek bone. I like to check any new purchase for the tendency to double by loading only one barrel at a time for several shots while doing some informal skeet shooting, and checking to make sure the other lock remains cocked after firing. You can leave a fired shell or snap cap in the empty chamber to protect the firing pin. Best to find out about this problem on an empty chamber. Practicing trigger work on old junk guns is advisable before working on anything good, as Stan suggests. This is a gunsmithing forum... a place to learn, and a place to also learn our own limitations. We share our knowledge because most of us are amateurs, and we see too many Bubba Gunsmith jobs. I recall reading a comment by a gunsmith about guns that come into his shop that have been "repaired beyond repair". Bubba Gunsmithing on triggers can do a lot more harm than ruining a good gun.

Peter, I'm sure I have read an article on it somewhere in the distant past but, I cannot recall it. Anything written concerning doing trigger jobs would be worth reading/considering. It is not brain surgery. You CAN learn, if you want to badly enough. All things considered, I guess I have been very lucky ........... I've never really screwed up a trigger. As I said, tho', some have taken much longer than others to get "right". However, I may be kinda like Dan'l Boone, who once said "I've never been lost, but I was considerable turned around once for four days".

SRH

Stan, I have much more knowledge on rifle and handgun triggers than shotguns. Some rifle trigger pull weights are in ounces, not pounds. But the thing to grasp is not the mechanism of a particular gun, but the geometry of the parts as they move. The relationship between a hammer and a sear are not complex but they do not allow much variance. The engagement between the sear and hammer always need to be at a positive angle. The greater the positive engagement angle the heavier the pull weight. As the positive angle approaches 0° recoil may override the springs and cause doubling. Anything negative of 0° and the trigger and sear springs are all that maintain engagement(the hammer spring is pushing opposite them), and the slightest bump can cause catastrophe. Remember also the line to take your angles off of are not always where they first appear. They are always a line drawn from the center of the hammer pin/pivot and the sear pin/pivot. Now draw a line perpendicular to the pivot line that intersects the sear hammer contact points. Now adjust slight positive angles to both parts. If you create too much positive engagement the pull weight gets heavier because the hammer/main spring is compressing as the sear climbs out of the engagement. Rule of thumb, try 2°. Remember once the metal is taken off it is harder to put it back.

John

I agree with all that, John. Most of it echoes my experience, too.

You just said it much, much better than I ever could have.

SRH

If anyone here would like a good read on geometry of parts. The Shop Manuals written by the late Jerry Kuhnhausen are outstanding. I don't know if his manual for the Rem 870/1100/11-87 cover triggers but, if you read through his works on the Colt 1911, 1911A1 and Commercial copies it will be a wakeup call to how mechanisms work. And the photos are amazing. Jerry milled hundreds of guns apart to show the inner workings and put the photos to page so we could grasp and understand the working geometry of the parts. Once you grasp the relationship of the parts, it doesn't matter what name is stamped on it.

John

John I always appreciate your input