I still have half a can of Kasenit but for some reason it has begun to refuse to stick the items I want to harden. Anyone used Cherry Red or Brownell's surface hardening compound? Thanks,
Steve

I've used both and they both work but need more ventilation than Kasenit. Too bad they quit making it.

Thanks Mark!

They both work well. They are both the same chemical make up (Potassium Nitrate and Chromium Oxide).
Maybe Brownells is repackaged Cherry Red?,,don't know

I used Kasenite for years and was sad to see it taken off the market. I wasn't so sure about any replacement in this day and age where everything seems to be made from snowflakes and balloons.
But I have to admit the stuff works . Just different chemicals than the Kasenite used. There's always more than one way to do things. In this instance the method stays the same,, the magic powder is different.
Hey,,it's surface hard when I'm done,,that's all I wanted.

Kasenit originally used Potassium Ferrocyanide, but I think they changed the formula before they quit making it. But any of the surface hardening compounds are just that. They are not a good substitute for the pack case hardening that can take several hours to get even 1/64" deep. There is no appreciable diffusion of carbon more than a thousandth or two deep from a quick case hardening process. There are a number of different ways to add carbon to the surface of milder steel including heating in an acetylene rich, or carburizing flame before quenching. I've made some emergency thread chasing taps or dies by putting a nut on a bolt and drilling some longitudinal holes through the thread juncture 60 or 90 degrees apart to create flutes. Then I unscrewed them and heated the nut or bolt red hot and dipped it in sugar. Then I heated it cherry red again and quenched. The sugar contains a lot of carbon, and hardens the surface enough to chase some damaged threads. Better than nothing in a pinch, but no substitute for a properly hardened tap or die made of good tool steel. I'm still hoarding my partial can of the old Kasenit too.

I've got a whole can of Kasenit that I cannot remember ever opening, at least not more than once. I have a hammer gun that will not hold proper sear engagement after I stone it to get it right. It's rounded off to the point that it goes off, from the recoil of the right barrel, after about 40 shots. I shoot this gun in S x S hammer gun competition occasionally, and just always pull the back trigger first, but I'd like to make it right.

Would the sear, or tumbler (I can't remember which is too soft), be a candidate for Kasenit treatment, or would a more thorough casehardening be required? I can do the trigger work myself, having done many over the years with great results, but I want it to last, next time.

Thanks, SRH

Naturally, a multi-hour pack case hardening job is going to wear better and longer than a Kasenit job. But Kasenit and other surface hardening methods do work when done properly. Of course, done improperly, you can over-heat and actually burn carbon out of the steel and end up lower than when you started. Just try cutting the side before and after with a jewelers file to see if you did it right. If the file still cuts after hardening... it ain't. If this is a gun that will see heavy use, you would probably be better off getting someone here who does bone pack hardening to put your little parts in the crucible when they make up a pack. I wouldn't think it should be too costly.

Your sear/tumbler would be a perfect use of Kasenite or one of the more recent versions of surface hardening compounds.

Quick and easily done in the shop. I've rehardened many, many sears, triggers, and other parts with the stuff over the years and it's always worked well.

No need to go very deep w/a case on small thin parts like a trigger/sear tip or a tumbler notch. Too deep and you can weaken the thin part as it gets hardened all the way through or nearly so and is glass brittle.

I usually just case harden the sear tip by dipping that portion of the part in the compound and letting it 'take' to the part.
No need to harden the whole thing IMO and chance getting the really thin areas thru hardened and brittle.
I did that a few times.

The tumbler I'd probably harden the whole part instead of trying to segregate and harden just the notch. But again there's no need to cook the thing for 20min to get a decent case on the part for what is expected of it.
Any thin cutouts on the tumbler like for a stirrup and pin can get over hardened just like the thin trigger/sear edge with the use of the stuff.
Just my experience.

Any little parts i make, i make from silver steel/o1/gfs whatever you want to call it. Then its a simple matter to heat it cherry red, hold it for a while and quench in vegetable oil. Polish then temper. It eliminates the need for a hardening compound, and the part is through hardened.

Steve

Look up "YELLOW PRUSSIATE OF SODA" or the more technical name : sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate, that's the main active ingredient in Kasenit. Cheap and easy to get.

And before anyone freaks out because of the "Cyanide" in the name, the FDA allows it's use in table salt "The additive is used or intended for use as an anticaking agent in salt"

Mike

Thanks, Kutter. That's good info.

keith, I have a kiln, bone charcoal, a crucible, etc. but if it can be done with Kasenit so that it will last for occasional usage, I'd rather go that route. The gun honestly doesn't get shot much at all. If I ever find the hammergun of my dreams, and I think I will, this one will move on down the road. It's won some hammer gun events, but it has no soul.

SRH

Sometimes I feel that starting out in Engineering not long after the end of WW2 here in Brit land did give an insight into that Brit mind set of “make do and mend.” For a long time every day engineering consumables where not available so substitutes where quickly found. Now I am not saying that the substitutes where as good as the real thing but they did come in as a good second. From the now very tatty paged note book I kept with all those little snippets of information so from the page containing such useless information now but back then priceless, how to use Tin Lead soft solder and a soldering Iron to solder connections to Aluminium.

Dipping case hardening Powder all ingredients are by volume.
8 parts of coal dust
5 parts of powdered Carbon/Charcoal
5 parts of powdered sugar.
From my notes, the sugar and coal dust make a crust on the hot metal keeping the mixture in contact.
I have never used this formula because Kasenit was always available though over here in our damp climate the bottoms of the tins always seem to rust out with regular monotony, so my Kasenit lives in an 8 oz. Coffee jar.

The key to correctly hardening your sear Stan is to identify what type of steel you have. Try bringing it up to cherry red and quenching in oil, if it becomes hard you have high carbon steel and need to temper it. Most sears on good quality guns are made of high carbon. If you use Kasenit or another method of pack hardening on high carbon steel you will through harden it and it will be very brittle and chipping or even breaking the sear tip is a likely outcome. Surface hardening compounds are for use on low carbon steel which impart a hard outer skin while leaving the inner core ductile. Hope that helps.
Steve

I'd be interested in any of those old recipes and dodges Damascus. Working in the engineering trades myself, i find a lot of new tools, compounds, products, even down to paint have been so tampered with over the years, to appease the green brigade, that most are useless.

Bonny from another page
Crucible colouring case hardening compound substitute. Blood Fish and Bone garden fertilizer (people where still expected to grow what food they could, so garden chemicals where available) you mixed one to one with powdered charcoal the colour imparted on the metal was on the blue side but not too bad looking.

I too have used the sugar method when I was stuck in Ulm,Germany whilst riding my 1954 Matchless motorcycle to Istanbul.The main jet was too small and I made a half round reamer out of a tent peg,,case hardened it with sugar and opened the jet out to a more acceptable size. Slightly off topic but with a vintage element to it !

Tremendous help, Steve. Thank you very much.

SRH

if you use garden bone fertilizer you need to cook it in a metal tin with a small air hole in the top over a heat source.it will smell terrible ,you can use regular bbq charcoal with out the match light starter,soaked in water to break down the binder and dey i an over after drying in the sun.