Any tips or tricks or dependable tools for removing these ?
Opinions and experiences gratefully received .
Gunman, do you know if the Helston tools are any good?

Whenever I get these to do invariably one or both can be troublesome.
What I need is a tool with strong pins and an ability to apply plenty of torque. Brownells used to list one but I find it is now not listed / not available.
Any input greatly appreciated.

Indeed the Menck tools seem to be no longer available

http://www.brownells.com/shotgun-parts/b...l-prod8874.aspx

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/512830/...-b-ss-b-99-b-78

The best way I have found is to make them out of tool steel(silver steel across the pond I believe). If you start with Hexagon stock you can forge it out and then use the Hex shaft in the mill or drill press. Has always worked for me in the past. I bent the Menck tool the one time I tried it.

I am away from the shop so I can't post a picture worth a thousand words. I have made several tools using square key stock. Drill holes spaced and sized to match the bushings. insert heat treated drill rod in the holes and use like a spanner.

http://finegunmaking.com/page37/page18/page18.html

Thanks Steven, I saw your article years ago , the Menck is no longer available and the others shown do have a habit of breaking regularly on stubborn discs. I guess I will have to make something equally tough as the stubborn discs?

I make the tool like mark makes his.
I insert two or for the three holed ones, three drill bits in holes, the same size as used to drill the holes.
The chucking end goes through the hole & into the striker bush holes.
They can be unbelievably tight.
O.M

Please se my PM.

Gunman,
No PM?

to send the PM you MUST put something in the SUBJECT line

My easy source for virtually indestructible pins for such tools are the bearing needles from old universal joints. Your mechanic (if you let someone else work on your vehicle) probably has a bucket full of them. Holes can be drilled in the end of a piece of suitable tool steel, and then heat treated, to make the tool shank. I don't believe I've broken one yet.

I was told by a Stateside Brit, if worst comes to worst solder a bolt to the disc. Then double nut the bolt and use a box end wrench on the bottom nut. I apologize if my American English is unclear. I do know about pins and turnscrews. Don't know if a box end wrench is a spanner. In my limited work I've seen significantly more problems with disc set strikers than hammers with integral firing pins.

I will resend .

I don't know if he still does, but, at one time, Cole Haugh made and sold a dandy tool for the job:



The idea above for using needle bearings to make the pins is a great one.

Problems with disc set strikers? Do elaborate. If you have a disc set striker fail, and you have the tool and a spare, you can be up and running as soon as you get back to the truck. If you don't have the tool and spares, shame on you. You at least had the option.
If you break an integral striker/hammer, you are done for that season, and, often, the gunsmith doesn't get the repair quite right. It is a difficult task.
Few of us will ever own a detachable lock Westley with a spare set of locks to get us back up and running. Few detachable lock Westleys even came with spare locks. Disc set strikers are the next best thing.

Best,
Ted

In theory that is quite correct and valid. But when you have to put the action in a mill to apply enough down pressure with the quill to be able to break the strickers loose, isn't all that easy. So far I have worked on a Citori that wouldn't budge, and as the pins were ok we didn't destroy the bushings. A Spanish gun we had to put in the mill. An AYA and a Webley that required making tools with square shank screw drivers to use a wrench to break them loose. Forgot the Uggie, that only required making a tool.

My tool is for an Uggy, and that gun has the bushing with three pins. Not sure if the guns that use just two pins are such a great idea.
I have seen guns with witness marks to align the bushing, mine doesn't have them.
Cole Haugh went to the trouble to aneal and re-harden all the bits in my gun, and when it came back with the laundry list I sent him completed, I checked the bushings-no problem to remove either. My ten year old can do it.
I've seen a couple truly ugly repairs to integral strikers, including a metric bolt threaded into the hammer, welded, and whittled away until it went through the breech face. If you tore up a bushing, would it not be easier to duplicate than an integral striker?
I'll still take my chances with disc sets before integral strikers. When it does work right, it is really easy.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

We are all thrilled to again hear how much you love disc set strikers and hate strikers integral with the hammer. We are also happy for you that your 10 year old son can remove the disc set strikers from your Uggy. We should all be so lucky!

If you have followed this thread & others on the same subject you should realize by now that disc set strikers can often be very difficult to remove no matter how many pins the tool has or how carefully the tool is fitted & since most higher grade guns usually have index marks on the striker disc & breech face & or locking screws I don't think most discs are stuck because they were over tightened by Bubba as you have indicated before.

Does it say anything to you that the Menck tool & others are set up to use a 3/8" or 1/2" socket or box end wrench?

I gave the gent a suggestion on a tool. I took a picture of it, so that he could perhaps duplicate it. The design is rather clever, with the pins coming to rest in three sets of holes, rather than just one hole for each pin. The right tools make a huge difference. Threaded bits can and do get stuck, good maintenance can correct most of that.

I have no tools that require a 1/2 socket drive for my guns, bicycles, or, my wrist watches. I'll guess things are as they should be, here.

How, exactly, did your post help the OP in any way?


Best,
Ted

Ted,

My post along with some of the other posts give the OP a little support in that he is not alone on having difficulty removing striker discs.

You however continue to post that you have never had a problem removing the disc from your Uggy & apparently don't or won't understand that disc set striker often cause more problems than they solve.

I have guns with both & disc set strikers & strikers integral w/the hammers & I've never broken a striker on either one but I have needed to remove the strikers from a couple of guns w/disc set strikers to reshape the end of the striker & there is no way I could have got the striker discs out w/o having the gun held firmly in a bench vise so I could apply proper torque to the disc. Definitely not a "field" repair in my limited experience.

Enjoy taking the striker disc out of that Uggy & I hope every striker disc you encounter comes out that easily.

Ted,
I understood your post, thanks for the idea.
Mike

Ted,
I would be interested to know how the pins come to rest in three sets of holes ?
Perhaps an end on view or the tool disassembled would shed further light on the subject . I understand Tom Menck is no longer trading, is that correct?

And, that, along with 50 cents, will get him a cup of coffee, exactly where?


Salopian,
Cole's tool has a continuation of sorts, past the relieved area behind the business end where the pins fit in-he drilled it far enough for the pins to drop into a second hole, in addition to the hole they are inserted into.
You can be sure the pins haven't skewed one way or the other in use by simply looking they are bottomed on the second hole. I suppose he could have simply made the holes full length, and not cut the relief just behind the business end, but, that wouldn't have been as elegant.
I usually put a small rare earth magnet on the shank, near the pins, to keep them in the tool. It does not look elegant, but, it keeps the pins from falling out of the tool. This is a view of the correct tool, for this application, in use. Having the correct tool can't be stressed enough:





If I had a seized disc, I'd likely opt for the same treatment I use on other stuck fasteners, complete disassembly and a soak in a 50/50 mix of diesel fuel and automatic transmission fluid. In severe cases, I have rigged a double boiler to warm the concoction, but, the flash point is low, and it is a bit dangerous, something best done outdoors with plenty of ventilation. I've always let the seized fastener sit immersed for at least a week before the dreaded heating process begins, and, have usually been rewarded with parts that break free after the week. A few times I have warmed the mixture, and used a nitrogen spray on the seized part after removing it, to break the parts free. But, just the soak does wonders. I've left stuff sit for a month a few times.

I've dealt with many stuck fasteners in my shop, but, they are usually in an automotive capacity, not firearms. You are trying to save an unavailable part, and, time is your friend in this case. The first rule, old guns and old cars, is do no harm.

If you are unconcerned about the finish, you have the option of electrolysis, filling a plastic pickle barrel with wash soda, or, lye, water, and hanging an electrode in the solution (I use a chunk of stainless steel) along with your stuck part, and using a 12 volt battery charger to drive the rust off the part, and onto the electrode. You can google the process, it is brutal, but, the part will be rust free, unstuck, and clean when it is over, usually a day or three. Never, ever needed to use it on gun parts. I start with better guns than that.

If you guys are using the quill of a Bridgeport verticle mill to apply pressure, you are abusing the machine, and not getting anywhere near the force you could with the right machine. A Bridgeport is a good mill, but, the quill is light duty, and not suited for that use. Better, are the Gorton verticle mills, and the monster, the English built Balding Beaver. I have access to all three, and a very good machinist passed that tip along to me. This falls under the use the right tool heading.

Lastly, all you gents that got a stuck disc free, did you do this to make it easy for the next guy?



I am no more than a tinkerer on guns, perhaps an advanced tinkerer on Darne guns, but, I have some pride and always make the job easier for the next guy with the tools, on either a gun or a car. A tiny tadpole shaped spot of this ends any trouble with a stuck disc for more time than we will be alive.

Salopian, I hope I described the tool well enough for you to produce one, if you need a better picture PM me. I don't know the status of the other tool mentioned, but, I imagine ebay could be your friend if you need one.

Best,
Ted

Salopian,

As I'm sure you have done already, a Google search shows T. W. Menck's Ralston, Nebraska shop permanently closed.

I have one of his 2- Bit adjustable firing pin bushing tools as he calls them & it works well & is made to use a 1/2" socket. His instructions suggest using an impact driver but I've not found that necessary (yet).

He has a good drawing of his tool in his instructions & failing your locating one somewhere it does not look like it would be too difficult for someone with a lathe to make one.

I'm not good at posting photos but if you want to PM me with your E-Mail address I'll scan the instructions & send them to you.

Nothing wrong with the Cole design either but on a gun that has been fired much you will want something more than a slick handle to provide some torque.

Those striker disc tools that have a handle that looks like a chamber brush handle are most useful as case accessories but I imagine you already know this.

Picture from Britany Man.

Salopian,
You can build a better tool than what is pictured. The adjustability is the Achilles heel in the Menck design.
Build it specific to the task at hand. You may end up with three different tools, but, that is better than wishing you had three different tools after the universal model didn't work out.


Best,
Ted

Having actually used the Menck tool to successfully remove a couple of striker discs w/o buggering up either the striker disc or the breech face I don't think I would change any thing if building one from scratch.

The adjustable spacing of the design allows a very precise fit of the pins to the striker disc holes & once adjusted is very solid.

The one thing I would change is the instructions for use:

1. To prevent burring the holes in the striker disc I first precisely fit the pins to the holes (I bought extra pins when I ordered my tool) leaving the original diameter on the back side of the pin where it fits into the tool face.

2. I would not use the recommended impact driver unless I had tried all other alternatives first. With the 1/2" drive you can provide plenty of torque with a T handle or breaker bar & have a lot more control of the tool & if that didn't work I would set it up in a vertical mill or heavy drill press so you could maintain heavy pressure on the tool while turning it by hand (same technique as used for really stuck screws).

The objective is to remove & replace the striker disc & having it look like it was never removed in the first place. This may not be possible in all cases & at the very least we want to avoid marring up the breech face. New striker discs can me made & fitted if all else fails but the breech face is difficult to repair.

Hello ladies and gentlemen,
I am new to your form in search of a highly qualified gunsmith to repair, possibly making a new sear or spring for my 1950s German16 gauge double gun.
Idahillie
(Idaho hillbillIie)

i was just wondering did anyone try to copy the Menck adjustable bit like tool?

Idahillie,
you'd be better starting yourself a new thread on your German gun..post one here in the DIY forum, & also on the General discussion forum...let people know where you are..Idaho, I guess
Its better than hijacking a thread
Welcome to the board n good luck
cheers
Franc