"Excuse me old chap, dashed awkward you know... but there seems to be a pig on your rifle..."

Mr. Hurst just sent pictures of the finished engraving on the Wesson rifle. I think it will do...

Glenn

There's something about that left tusk...

As always, beautiful. Make sure that you post some pictures when done of completed job.
The Meerkats seem to becoming popular.

Is this the first ever "African" Wesson? I associate that action with rifles used for target work--were there hunting versions? Apparently there are now, or are about to be! I love single shots, from Favorites to these luxury custom jobs! Keep 'em coming!

Gee, that's lovely. I would not mind owning SS in say 9,5R Holland.

Yeah, the base of the left tusk doesn't match the base of the right.

Tusk rarely do in nature.Most are right or left handed much like Tembo. Rooting done from the same side day in and out.Love to read the old stories of pig sticking in Africa.The gun would be welcome at my house anyday.

Don't worry about this fine work. Don't you know only Allah turns out perfect work?
PS. I prayed to Allah to turn Gustav NW, so I would pack those Winchesters and inflate that rubber dinghy if I were you.

I love it- hope to hunt feral pigs in TX (San Antonio area)-what caliber is your Wesson? Hemingway wrote of shooting a marauding baboon in "True At First Light"-and a "tune up" on jackals might be like a good woodchuck or prairie dawg "dust up session"- I like better Ruark's account of when his Africa pal Harry Selby was hired to kill marauding crocs that were preying on the natives in the rivers-he used a .243 Win. varmint rifle-found the only sure way to kill a croc was a shot in the eye-then the brain was blown out- so he sat up on a high embankment with a spotting scope and his M70 .243 and lent his "Assistance from a Distance"_ Great job of engraving, that pig looks like its ready to leap from the steel and do some real damage to whatever gets in its way--RWTF

Will,

You are correct.




Pete

Well done Mr Hurst.
Glen thanks for sharing.

Thanks for posting the pictures Mr. Pete. I wanted ol jOe to see that the picture was copied correctly as he found fault with the tusks --- I did draw the pig looking in the opposite direction as animals should always be running/looking/charging towards the muzzel. Iff'n you compair the pictures, you'll see they are pretty close. Thanks for the kind words guys ........... ken

RWTF ---- I can see where it's easy to mistake the two --- these are Meerkats as per Mr. Glenns request. The little hills are termite mounds/hills. ken

Just beautiful, and Joe you are so full of it, I bet your eyes are brown. More UN-informed commentary that we do NOT need.

With nothing against Mr. Ken's superb work (I've witnessed it in person, so I know), that is the UGLIEST animal on the face of the planet. Lopsided or symmetrical. I wonder why anyone would have it engraved on a gun.

I thought it was a Warthog but Mr. Doug Mann said it was a perfect likeness of Mr. Glenn. As I have never met Mr. Glenn in person, I can't say for sure but I have my doubts --- Mr. Doug and Mr. Glenn are both rather fond of jerking chains. ken

Sorry Mr.Hurst...When I see something on these forums lots of times I'm guilty of just speaking my mind before I really take the time to remember that I'm not supposed to speak my mind on these forums without retaliation by the crowd....

Sincerely I only wish I had enough time left in my life to learn to paint steel like you can.

Dave,

They are the symbol of the African Safari for most that have been there. They are cheap in comparision to most animals on the big game lists. They are great eating and often make great mounts.





Pete

I guess I could stand shooting one....but I don't think I could bring it home.

Glenn and Ken,
Baeutiful work, stunning
Dennis Potter

Joe, as usual, you have outclassed the dumbest moron on the block. Warthogs are probably the least symmetical of any animal out there. And that is a huge part of their "beauty". Something you can only aspire to from your position in the primordal ooze where you are so much better suited. I have shot or handled a few warthogs and seen many. Not a one had anything close to a symmetric face, and yet all had better manners, on their worst days, than you on your best.

Not only is that an oustanding warthog, those meerkats are about as divine as they could possibly be. I had seen quite a few and was priviledged enough to spend a day in the company of one of Tim Cluttonbrocks bands of acclimated meerkats where we could follow them all day over the plains at only a meter or two distance. And I can tell you they are exactly like Ken's scratchings, and I can also say that were they as big as even a small spaniel, human's would most likely be extinct, and homeless Joe for sure would be just another meerkat turd. They are awesome animals.

I wish I was going to be Lodi for this rifle's debutant ball, but cannot. Unfortunately, I cannot make it, but there is a better than decent chance that the rifle will end up being an international champion. Afterall, the world is coming to Lodi for the championships this September, and that just happens to be Glenn's home range for Creedmoor, where he owns the range record I believe. So, there is a pretty decent chance that this rifle will start out literally on top of the world.

Oh, yeah, I sure wish I could be there.

Brent

PS. Joe, you've worn out your curiosity factor with me. Time for you to join Lowell on the "ignore" list. You two are such good company for each other. Bye...

Thanks Ken-are they considered a "rodent or varmint" over there in Africa? Do they eat the termites? Cute little buggers, and your detail-even of something not maybe "my cup of tea" as would an Osthaus Setter with the "nine o'clock tail" very impressive detail and shadowing, great job!!

This is why I wouldn't miss this forum for anything. No place else do you see such beautiful artwork, and such riviting commentary in the same place.

Brentboy...Ouch!

Yep, he gave HomelessJoe pretty stiff verbal shove.

I would guess if one was to just hunt burds they wouldn't need to know what other criters look like in life.Of course if you don't know its at times best not to comment. Remember Tembo is the only critter other than man that all of his knees bend just like ours.Pete the bare skull mount has supper tusses,all are fine heads.If I ever got to go I could be happy with warthogs only but would love a 42" Buff.

I too wish I could even begin to approach Mr. Hursts' level of talent. Simply stunning, and a great and imaginative variation of subject matter rather than just another enraged Cape Buffalo or Bull Elephant. I also wish I had jOes' talent for hooking and reeling in the fish without them even realizing it. Geez, they keep coming even after he takes the minnow off the hook. A guy could make a good living playing poker with them.

Wow.
Thanks for sharing (even though such treasures leave me near weeping with desire...!)

"animals should always be running/looking/charging towards the muzzel"
What a wonderful nugget of knowledge; I never realised that!
RG

Well Brent at Mr.Hurst's expense I'll reply to you...too bad you'll miss it.

Best you get your eyes checked.

The Warthog must have got run over by Col. Capsticks Range Rover...as the left tusk (facing us) is coming out too close to the center line of his snout....give it a close look.
In the real pictures you can see how the snout protrudes where the tusks come out.
Now you can claim it's the angle he's facing but I don't see it that way.

I wasn't going to comment on the ground monkey but after you insulted me like you have I feel I have to....see'ns how yer the Merkat expert and all.

The left ones head looks good...the one of the right (more facing us) his snout is out of wack....his face/snout looks too short even at the angle he is turned.

j0e, I was going to post my home brewed scratchin' of "SpongeBob" on the side of a Win '92.
...but your a tough customer to please.

Ken, I'll say it again beautiful work.
I know jOe just posts to get people aroused, and does a good job doing so to some people. I guess everytime he looks at a magazine cover of a beautiful gun, amimal or woman, especailly the woman, he thinks that's the way she/they look in real life. They only look as good as the graphic designer wants them to look, makeup doesnt' do it.
So in lining up all warthogs, Meerkats, women, guns etc they all look alike to jOe.

Nice work, Ken.

David, I'm guessing an artist with Mr. Hurst's experience and talent isn't worrying about what Joe thinks.

Mr. Fewless - please post pics of the finished gun.

JDW & Norm. Maybe Mr. Glenn will also post pictures of the Meerkats that I copied. If so, the photos of the Meerkat in question will show that it was born with deformaties ( I guess). Anyhow, I copied them the way they looked in the photo as I did with the warthog. They might not please everyone but I copy what I'm ask to copy. Ken

Ken,

Your work is great as always.

If Mr Glenn would post those pictures over on http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve I am sure the reception would be very good.

Pete

My goodness, what a mess. All I wanted to do is post some pictures of my rifle...

I do want to thank all the wonderful folks who were able to point out all the glaring faults with Mr. Hurst's work. I must say I was surprised to learn this, but it is best to find out now so perhaps I can get some of my money back. If it turns into an ugly court battle it is reassuring that I have ready access to experts in the field who are not afraid to come forward.

There is something of a bright side to all this. To be frank, it is somewhat of a relief to learn that my rifle is irreparably damaged by this shoddy work. It takes a lot of pressure off of me knowing that the rifle is already junk, so I don't have to worry any more about damaging it in the final finishing and assembly.




And no, I won't be posting any more pictures of the rifle. Between upsetting the delicate sensibilities of the masters and then watching these same paragons trash a dear friend of mine, it just doesn't seem worthwhile.

As long as the owner and members of this board choose to harbor jerks like this hiding behind their silly aliases, the whole forum will remain a platform for their delusions of adequacy and of little value for anything else. Too bad. It used to be a fun place to visit.

Regards to all,

Glenn Fewless

Glenn-I understand your feelings- you wanted to share with us all the masterful work of a good friend and most talented artisan=and working in a most exacting medium. Would you consider posting finished fotos and other pertinent details of this "Rolex of Rifles" on another site. I am a devout rifleman- prefer FN Mauser type BA rifles- mine are, as Hemingway said about his G&H 1903 Sporter- "A gun is to shoot" but I would love to own, and I would hunt with it, a Jerry Fischer masterpiece, or a pre-64 M70 custom shop from G&H- Don't let old Homeless Joe annoy you- his ancestors most likely criticzed the Sistine Chapel!! RWTF

Nice job Ken & Glenn!
I think warthogs and single shots go very well together!

Nice warthog Steve,
I agree on the singleshots for warties. I took mine with a Sharps.

Brent

Glen just because I don't like your warthog doesn't make me a jerk...any more than it makes you a jerk for liking it. And truthfully I won't loose any sleep over what you or your buddies think of me.

Ps...I'm not hiding anywhere Mr. Fewless my profile offers allot more information about me than yours does.

Congratulations Mr. Cox, in this thread you have outdone yourself!

Adios.

JC

SDH, will you please identify the single shot in the warthog picture? (I can't, but I want it anyway....). Thanks for posting it!

No, it doesn't. But like JayCee said, you have proved yourself pretty well in this thread.
It's gettin' a little old jOe, why not just put a sock in it?

Rifle on Pig
(I guess it's OK to hi-jack this thread as feeding the trolls has already screwed it up. We've simply got to ignore these a**h****.)
This is my oft-photographed sidelever single shot hunting rifle, in 30-40 Krag, created from a Ruger #3 with metalsmithing by the late John Madole with which I've been hunting for 12 years, have taken 17 head of big game and will be mule deer hunting this Thanksgiving (God willing!)

And on the cover of self-published book circa 1999 with stories about both the rifle and the metalwork. (I a very few copies left!)
.
I surely hope Glenn has as much fun, shoots as often and gets to go hunting with his lovely single shot as much as I have.

Steven, imagine the comments the engraver would get if you used that nice but unique gemsbok
as a model.

JC

Looks like another victim of Col.Capsticks Range Rover...

Mr. Dodd-Hughes, I want a copy of the book. How much and where do I send the money? I tried the pm but I can't seem to get it to work.

Thanks, SDH-MT! That is one heck of a rifle. I have an original Win Hi-Wall .30-40 and a great respect for the caliber, even the factory 180 gr. are darn good killers.

Since imitation is the sincerest form of respect, to misquote someone famous (I think), I'm going to COPY your rifle's forearm on my custom #1 .22 Hornet. It is perfect, as is the open pistol grip.

For book info: sdh at montana.net

Mike, that forend is not perfect, as my rifle has a 28" very heavy barrel. Draw it proportionally. I'd also make the ebony a tad longer these days.

Yup, I'd make the Hornet forend a little shorter to go with the 25" medium-heavy (1S contour) barrel. Thanks for the inspirational posts! (I think--other people have bookies after 'em, we'uns have stockers and smiths.....and wives).

I admire your .30-40 handload. However, the one I've found most efficient for little old deer at the ranges I can hit 'em is a .30-30 170 Silvertip at .300 Savage velocity. No kickum; killum.

What's all the bluff and bluster about HomeboundJoe here for? If you'd all do exactly what I've done and just put him and a few others on ignore there wouldn't be any of this stuff. When people stop replying to what he says he'll go away because he's only doing it out of a childlike need for attention. Take away the attention and you'll take away the problem.


DLH

P.S. Of course I've just given him exactly what he wants right here by saying this even though I didn't read what he said in the first place.

DLH, who are you talking about? ;-)

JC

Destry's never been the same since he ate that rotten possum I served him...

Perhaps Ken could engrave an Opossum on his Paa'kaa...

Interesting caliber selections, guys. The 30-40 Krag and 30-30 Winchester, some of the oldest smokeless powder rounds out there with some of the biggest rainbow trajectories and all to feed some beautifully built custom rifles!!!
Why????

They don't even qualify as a Classic Pumpkin rollers.....I'm at a loss.

Ummm....because its a classic rimmed round that will do all you ask of it?

As long as you don't ask too much...

"Rimmed and Pleasant to Shoot" would be my reasons. I find it a bit difficult to get into the mood to take the boomers out to the range for a session. In my weakened condition, I more often choose one of the .22 Hiwalls and leave the big guns at home. If I had a nice 30-30 or 30-40 in a similar configuration, I might spend more time with the center fires.

What's with all the 8 ga. talk...don't they kick ?

I guess it would depend on ones style....since I like to get close to my critters, the .30-40 would work just fine for me. Have you read the article Seyfried wrote in DGJ about shooting pigs with the .32-40 and hardened lead bullets? Interesting stuff.

No and don't expect I will...



Have you tried spear chucking I hear you have to be pretty close.

I think the buck I shot with black powder last year at 4 yards was close enough for a spear. Someday you may try pulling your head out of the sand and expanding that rather limited amount of knowledge you posses. While your at you may look into finding some manners.

I understand!!!
Your actions are set up for rimmed rounds and those are two of the best. Steve, you're getting some excellent accuracy out of that 30-40 Krag your own reloads I'm sure!!

I think my manners are just fine...

I don't actually use a .30-30; I use .30-30 bullets in a .30-40 at .30-40ish speeds. Mainly because they are cheap and they work; at the slightly higher velocities (than a .30-30 factory load) they open up more reliably but at those moderate speeds they also still penetrate both sides of the critter. For some odd reason, I've never even owned a .30-30; don't know why. I don't like the Win '94 action much, but have seen plenty of '99s (which I do like) in that caliber....hmmmm, wonder if I could afford one? (Probably not.). My Hi-wall has its original Marbles tang rear, and I'm damned if I will mutilate an original Winchester with a scope mount. So when the front sight post needs to be as wide as the dovetail for me to get a sharp focus on it, I'll pass the gun on to a museum or something.

Why use "archaic" rimmed rounds? My Hi-wall was chambered for them; first smokeless factory sporter in the US. But even my Ruger #1s all end up chambered for rimmed rounds, except for a .250-3000. I'm a hunter, not a sniper. I get as close as I can--usually really close. Don't need a magnum, nor even a "hotshot" like the .250 most times. I could use my Martini .25-35 or my GP-100 for most of the deer and coyote shooting I do. To me a scope is a necessary evil brought on by my aging eyes. Don't need it for big things like deer (yet).

Guess I'm just a hopeless ballistic fundamentalist; hooked on "The Gospel According to Ned Roberts"! Many of the first generation of smokeless sporting cartridges have just the right combination of qualities for killing ordinary North American game at ordinary distances. And most of them are rimmed.

Mike, speaking of Ned Roberts, my late friend, rifle experimenter and Kentucky rifle authority T.J. Cooper, once gave me the Ned Roberts published reprint of F.W. Manns "The Bullet's Flight". I'm not much of a rifle guy, so it was a while before I leafed through the book. When breezing through it, a photograph fell out. It was a photo of NR on a deer stand in New England, New Hampshire I think. The note on the back of the photo was a personal note about (don't remember) from Ned to T.J. It was dated late forties I think. Murphy

The 30-40 Krag is a fine cartridge, I've owned and used the 30-40 Krag for many years. When I moved to Alaska I used a custom sporter 30-40 Krag with a Lyman Alaskan (2.5 power) in a G&H side mount, the rifle was also equipped with a Lyman 48 receiver sight. I used factory Remington 220 grain ammo and never felt I was under gunned, this rifle cleanly killed both Moose and Caribou. If I had not lost that rifle in a house fire I would have it today. I am building a Borchardt sporting (Zischang type) rifle and the caliber will be .30-40 Krag.

Neat! Can you post the picture, I'm sure others besides myself would like to see it.

The rifle I'm using for inspiration, the owner can tell you about it.

Thanks for posting the photos, Michael.

The rifle is a military Borchardt action modified by A O Zischang with his DST and a neat little sliding safety on the lever (right at the top front of the bow). Barrel is a light sporter in .25 - 35. Post of the Lyman tang sight is in one of my boxes of parts - this reminder will start the search for it.

Stock is also Zischang. Note the very fine checkering as well as his lines. Top quality throughout!

What a beautiful forearm in particular.

The checkering is exquisit as well, but I really love the shape of that forearm!

Brent
PS. You guys need a new thread.

IMO A.O.Zischang was one of the best gunmakers, he was skilled in barrel making, wood and metal work. This rifle is way better in real life, one of, if not the best single-shot sporting rifles I have ever had the privilege to have handled.

MP, if I ever learn how to post pictures, I will have the rest of my life mapped out for me.

i love the S detail on the forend and action.mc

homeless joe / meerkat tUrd. im still laughing.mc

Somehow, Destry- I think you'll be forgiven forthwith. Just noticed that ol' Homely Joseph outranks me- he's a two star sidewinder- ooops- sidelocker. RWTF

RWTF you sure pissed off someone on a post at sometime in the past.Looks like a gang up to me.

Mr. Ken is there time to change my engraving pattern on my A-1 Special? I'd like to change it from quail to an asymetrical hOmeles jOe.

You mean a mutant Meerkat turd?

THAT would be original!

mc, that "S" detail caught my attention too.

Beautiful rifle MP, thanks for the pictures.

JC

My buddy has Axel Petersons personal Ballard target rifle made by Zischang . That rifle has some of the best wood and woodwork I have ever seen,with a beautifully detailed ebony forearm tip and other detailing. My friend got the rifle from his dad who got it from the guy who bought it from Axel Peterson. The rifle came with about 4 pages of notes and description written by Mr. Peterson,outlining the rifles history. I ended up with Mr.Petersons surface guage and some other tools he used.

yOu guys need to lay off...I've been instructed to leave you whiners alone.

Pictures! Pictures! If you can't post them send them to me and I'll be glad to.

At the moment I have a Win. hiwall and a .30 cal oct. bbl that is to be chambered in 30-40. Never owned one but of recent, have heard great things about the cart. and am pleasantly surprised to hear so many people here praise the round.

Well, in your case, I'm not too concerned about my manners.

I've been seeing your complaining about ever little thing on this board for I don't know how long! Who the hell do you think you are? You are a prick of the first order and know little about most of the things you rant about! I'm sick of your BS, and everyone else here is too. They won't say anything, so I'll say it for them. Get over your holler than though self!

Ken, the .30-40 Krag is an excellent round and is very close to the performance of a .308 Win. I have a Ruger Number 3 Carbine in .30-40 that I like very much. Wish I had the where-with-all to have you "paint" something nice on it.
That Winchester High Wall in .30-40 will be one fine rifle.

Mr. Don, there's an easy way around all this. Instead of getting upset about things said by some people, simply hit the ignore button on the name or names of those who are intolerable --- you'll never have to hear their rants again. Doing this has been a God sent for me. Market Hunter is another gentlemen who I believe is doing such an excape from the madness. Remember, only a fool argues with a fool. Never the less, thanks for coming to the fore front. Ken

Ken, I will not argue with the fool because there's no point, but I don't suffer fools well and just had to vent a bit.

Well said Ken. I'm very sorry Glenn got run off. One needs warthog skin, and an occational sharp ivory around here.

As you can tell, I'm more than please wih my .30-40 & if I ever shoot the barrel out it wil become a .375-40, a friend has the reamer. I would love to have a .25 Krag as well.

I sincerely hope Mr Fewless hasn't been run off. Without him, who will celebrate with me the beautiful elegence of whiteline spacers custom cut from a Clorox bottle? The custom gunmakers on this board are one of the few reasons I still monitor it.

The gentleman with the complaints just resigned from the board in the post concerning Stars.

Cary Nelson

I never said I resigned....

I'll still read I just find it fruitless to have to take the low life comments from the big shots about me and not be able to reply without fear of getting thrown off.

I may not like your little pig but I never said a bad word personally to any of you high and mighties. I never singled out anyone on this forum and talked about them like some of you have me.

I can take it because it just shows you guys true character....

ps. I still don't like the pig.

j0e...do you think some of these guys have a box of Kleenex in their gun cabinet?

Very few talented engravers have the luxury of studying exotic animals and birds in the wild in order to duplicate their features in steel and precious metals. Most work from stuffers or photographs. Even stuffers can give off incorrect images, so, I assume most engravers do their best and most accurate work from good photographs. That is the situation with Ken Hurst. I have watched him work, and he does not claim to travel to Africa to study for his next commission to engrave an African animal. He sits a photograph or other good image next to his vise. Oddly, the image in steel is a wonderful rendering of the photographic image. End of story, except to say that "I like the pig."

I take a Ken Pig over a valted Lindner Diamond Quaility Dog anyday.Hopefully a hundred years from now folks will be talking guns and someone will say it looks like Hurst work,is it signed anywhere.

I have a Hurst engraved Martini .22. It's signed. It's also a permanent part of my firearms inventory. My kids can argue about it when I'm gone. Ken Hurst does very nice work indeed.

FWIW (not much, I know!), I liked the pig. And the meerkats. Although I do have to ask "Why?" on the meerkats. But then, it's not my gun, so if meerkats make the gun's owner happy, I'm happy for him.

I've watched this thread since its inception and have watched as some truly fine work has been trashed. I don't get pissed off easily but I'm pissed! Ken and I are very good friends and talk on the phone at least once a week and sometimes more. Glenn is one of my closest friends, we shoot together, work on projects together, drink beer together and just do stuff together. We also yank each others chain, however, just like brothers, we might do that but don't you do that.

If anyone might want to know the inspiration for the Warthog all they have to have is one of Glenn's business cards and it will become obvious. As to the Meerkats - well you can probably put the blame for that choice on me, when Glenn and I were discussing the engraving and he said he wanted a Warthog on one side I said why not have Meerkats on the other. So there you have it.

I don't know if Glenn will post any finished pictures of the rifle when it's done or not. The board will be poorer for it if he doesn't. But just in case he doesn't here is a picture of the damascus steel skeleton butt plate installed on the rifle and if you look close you will see an out of focus damascus steel skeleton grip cap.

Wow! That's the only thing I can think of. Inadequate - for sure. But that is just amazing stuff.

Thanks,
Brent

Steven,

I like the .25 Krag as well. This rifle was made for Dr. Baker by A.O. Niedner in 1911in caliber .25-Krag. The rifle was restocked in the early 1950’s by Keith Stegall. Dr. Henry A. Baker was a good friend of Niedner, Mann and Leopold. The Sharps Borchardt action that was used for this rifle was an original Long-Range Creedmoor one. When installing the DST’s the Borchardt safety was removed. Niedner made a cocking knob so the rifle could be carried in the filed loaded then cocked before firing, the firing pin does not rest on the primer.

MP, that particular piece of English is not characteristic of Stegall's usual wood selection in my experience, but it is the kind of straight grain wood that I prefer on understated fine guns, both shotguns and rifles. To be honest, I guess it could be American Walnut, but I doubt it.

Few would use wood like this today, for my Zischang project I had to look all over for a blank that most would call plain. When Steagall made this rifle I'm not sure how long he had been stocking at that time. If his name was not stamped into the barrel channel I would not have been able to attribute the stock to him.

Here is a picture of Dr. Baker with the rifle and the original stock which looks like the Sharps buttstock and small forend.

Very Cool Michael! You continue to amaze me with good taste, historic context and accuracy, each and all very important to my notion of fine guns. Of course I like the original stock better, even though I spent a day in Keith Stegal's shop in Gunnison in 1976. I also had the good fortune to be a helper sorting three pallets of Tessier walnut Stegal imported for the school at Trinidad.

Here's a pic captured earlier this summer of a similarly styled rifle (.22lr) out gopher shooting. I built this one for myself but sold in during the great years of Clinton cash flow. The scope is one of two I talked Gil Parsons into custom building for me from the remainder of the original Lyman A5 parts he had purchased (4x 3/4" 2-moa dot reticle, Lyman mounts.)

Your good buddy Terry generously offered to help rectify my 25 kraglessness. Maybe we can work something out one of these days, what a guy! There might yet be a .25K in my future!

Mr. Steve, would you be so kind as to forward me thr pictures of this rifle ? I am just starting to getthe metal work done & want to use this picture as inspiration. Many thanks, Ken kenhurst@suddenlink.net

Steven, If I had a time machine I would go back and save the original wood. I even had someone I know digging through his woodpile looking for it without luck.

I like your .22 Low-Wall a lot, nice work and too bad you had to part with it but I'm sure it made another very happy.

I like the Lyman 5A's a lot better than the Winchester A5's which do not seem to hold their zero as well. If you will notice, there is a Niedner modification to the tension screw on the 5A.

Ken, I'll email the pic, but there are better shots of a similar rifle in my Custom Rifles book.

MP I did notice that lever on the rear mount if that's what you mean?
The fellow that bought the .22 has become one of my best friends and we get together to shoot it a couple times per year (just last week!)

Don't know if you got the Accurate Rifle but here's is another Low Wall stocked more in that Sharps style. Unfortuanely I was shooting mostly B&W at the time, but feel lucky that I got any photos at all. this one was in .22 rimfire mag and shot WAY better than I ever expected. (BTW that's only 2 piece I've done from a rifle blank and the worst mis-matched forend to butt I've even done!)



This is one of my all-time favorites and I'll be doing another similar in .17HMR next year

For anyone choosing a .25 Krag (good choice), there is the further choice--WHICH .25 Krag? I'm no expert but I can think of 4--plain vanilla, short vanilla, and two Ackleys (plain and short chili????). Bet you there are more. I suppose it depends on what you want to use the rifle for, and how much ooompah your resizer arm has to it.

Since I, as I've said, shoot short and soft, I prefer the .25-35 (drooling over the Sharps shown earlier....). And did I mention I'm cheap and .30-30 cases are still a common range pickup, in spite of the price of scrap brass? My .25-35 is on a Greener Cadet Martini with a Shilen 24" barrel; stockwork by me. Good thing I can't do pix; too embarrassing even if I could.

Steven, Yes I got TAR, even publish an article or two in it. I have a soft spot for any single shot and the more along the lines of a traditional rifle the more I like it. I like both the Ballard tips and the schnabel that S.R. Griffin liked to do on horn forend tips. I never tire of fine work, rust blue and nice wood, thanks for sharing.

Maybe we could rename this place the the doublegun&single-shotshop like the DGJ has.

Mike, the 25-35 has been absolutely trashed in print, but with Nosler 120 bullets should killed deader than....it sure does in .257R
Michael,
You know how I feel about the DGJ but .... as with you I can't seem to get enough well executed single shots. Seeing the rifles you present actualizes the concepts I have had for years, decades, about how to blend my contemporary concepts with really cool traditional rifles, and they must shoot well to be on any consequence.
Here are a couple more views from AR.


It is hugely important to me that the rifle and guns I craft perform as they should which is why I try to include a range photo with a custom gun. The 22 shown earlier just tips over gophers out to 120 yards.
The guns you've shown were all meant to perform.

Thanks for the photos. The rifles look absolutely amazing!

JC

Gentlemens:

I just stopped in to say something what needs said. Howsomever, this thread has taken a most interesting turn. I feel guilty about hijacking the hijack.

I finally have the Wesson action back in my hot little hands. Looking at it up close and personal is something of a reality check. Look again at the picture of the pig and all the detail. In the real world that pig is only 1" tall from foot to the top of his head! It is impossible to appreciate just how fine the detail is until you hold the action in your hand. The flip side is perhaps even more astounding. There is a bright cut on the eyes of the meerkats that actually makes the eye appear three dimensional. The thing doesn't just have eyes, it has eyes that are actually looking at something.

This work is, without question, as fine as I have ever seen. And not just the representational art. The scroll work scaled down to its real size is fine and graceful, wonderfully designed and executed. I really cannot say too much about the quality of this work. If this is not Mr. Hurst's opus, I am not sure I wish to gaze upon the real thing.

I am humbled to have this engraving on my metalwork.

Respectfully,

Glenn Fewless

I'm going to jump in here and add my two cents worth also.

I was with Glenn yesterday when he picked up the Wesson at Classic Guns (John Gillette). John had just finished color casing the action and it looked wonderful. John is fully aware that Glenn plans to french gray the action to show off the engraving but the colors looked awesome anyway. French gray will really show off the engraving.

As Glenn says, the engravng that Ken did on the gun is spectacular. Art work in steel is the phrase that comes to my mind. I would only hope that everyone will have a chance to see the rifle someday in person.

Ken has promised to engrave a Winchester low wall for me in the near future and all I can hope for is something even close to what I saw on Glenn's gun.

BTW Ken, if you read this I'm kind've thinking that a Vulture on one side and a Condor on the other would like pretty cool.

hello Glenn nice gun. nice engraving.always remember the only thing required of anyone on the BB is a computer.a person can sit in there mothers basement an spu nothing but crap. someone responds and they are fulfilled. sad but true.( how did speedy do shooting with you guys at raton)Doug i think your ideas are great Mark Cooper

What is the difference in the Winchester low wall and the high wall...is it the strength of the action???
Talk of Ballards and Winchester, and Sharps...no Remington rolling blocks the hero of the Creed's moor shoot.
All forgotten like a redheaded step child!!!

"I just stopped in to say something what needs said. Howsomever, this thread has taken a most interesting turn. I feel guilty about hijacking the hijack."

Now that is funny, sorry for the hijack but have run out of places on the net to talk about single-shots.

There are a number of shooters over on the ASSRA board who would welcome a new board to post on. I wonder if Dave would consider adding a forum for single shot & classic rifles to this web site. If any of the readers seeing this post agree, perhaps a poll should be started to feel out the present membership. A positive out turn might convince Dave to agree.

Oh yeah --- got to thank all my friends and Glenn & Doug for their positive review of my scratching --- y'all are the best !

I would vote a definite Yes!!
I could then pick alot of brains for information concerning modern rifles and their performance!!!

I favor that single shot and classic rifle forum addition.

A single-shot and classic rifle forum would be awesome. But then I would get nothing done, as it is I should be working instead of checking this forum all the time. If I could talk classic rifles I'd have to put a computer in the bathroom.

Here is a picture of what I believe to be Colonel John Bodine’s Remington Rolling Block. Feel better now?

Thanks Michael!!!

I know that gun!

Well, I don't personally but apparently it is cased with mould and bullets and back in the day, some friends of friends thrice removed owned this rifle and did some bore, bullet and mould measuring for me and other that were reinventing wheels.

We are still reinventing but had a lot of fun speculating on the stuff with that rifle.

More pictures of any accoutrements (and dimensions!!!!).

Brent

And ain't that just the sexiest pistol grip ever made!

Brent

Welcome Back Glenn!
One time an engraver was upset with me because my photo of his work was shown on a magazine cover larger than life size?!?!
I'd sure like to see the the rifle as a whole? and hear some of the specifics.

Michael, Gunstock carving is old fashioned - and that one is more wonderful than tipping block German Shutzens. WOW!

I've got a new pre-WWI Mauser sporter by Schlegelmilch,Suhl, but it's all in pieces and parts on my bench.

Treblig1958, for info on the Win 1885, I suggest John Campbell's The Winchester Single Shot, Vols. I&II. Lots of data and pix; few errors or omissions. The Win Hi-wall variation is one super-strong invention; Johnny Browning was also an over-engineer-er it seems. I suppose you can blow up anything, but John Buhmiller tried REALLY hard with an old case colored Hi-wall and didn't succeed (Campbell V.II, pp. 43-46). Heat-treated blue ones should be stronger yet. Lo-walls are probably stronger than most think (my buddy and I used to shoot Win 1892 .44-40 Hi-Speeds, the ones marked "NOT for Model 1873 and Revolvers" in his Lo-wall regularly. And in my granddad's Colt New Service.).

For .25 Krag references, John Donnelly's Hndloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions shows all dimensions of three versions (.25 Krag original--probably Roberts', .25 Ackley Short, and .25 Ackley Improved). All have greater powder capacity than the .250-3000 (lots more) and the factory .257 Bob. The .25 Ackley Improved Krag has almost identical capacity to the .257 Ackley Improved Roberts, about 8% less than a factory .25-06. NOT "brush guns"!

I'm all for a single "shot/fine rifle" forum, obviously. I'll save my questions about your experience of single shot BOLT action rifles until then (talk about red-headed stepkids....).


My last word on THIS thread. ("It's been great fun, BUT it's just one of those things....")

Brent,

You may be thinking of another rifle. Several years ago at the Winter Las Vegas gunshow I found this rifle on a table, no case and no tools. It was several hours into the first day so I was broke by then. I talked a friend here in Anchorage into buying the rifle. I tried to find the original photo that the wood-cut was made from with little luck. I understand that the rifle will be in the new Remington Rolling Block book but I have no idea what is written about it.







Mike,

The .25-Krag that we know today was reported on by Ned Roberts in some early articles of his. I believe that the .25-Krag was developed by F.W. Mann circa 1903-06. A few years later A.O. Niedner brought out the .25 Niedner-Special known today as the 25-06.

Must be a different rifle, I never even saw a picture of it. But I do like this one a whole lot!!!

Brent

I think it would be a great idea and I AM SURE MANY former and present members of the ASSRA Would greatly appericate it to be able to be involved with true gun lovers. Whitey

Steven, In case your getting out your carving tools, here is another view ;-).

Thanks again Mike for that great information, I need to start a whole new library!!!
Did anyone see that target posted by Mr. Petrov and his Sharps Borchardt 25 Krag!!!
Holy smokes anyone see that group at 100 yards!!!
Michael what is the rate of twist in that barrel and the type of rifling used??
And is it a custom barrel???

I agree.
After all, the publication most of us hold most dearly is devoted to them as well as double guns.

But you all must stop: I'm going apopleptic with envy, desire, lust and several other cardinal sins... I'm astonished at what members of this board own, and what they can do.
RG

Cadet, You would be surprised at what many on this board can do --- even those that don't know it yet. A desire to creat something coupled with a mouth to ask for help (on this board) will bring tons of feed back. Over the years, I have suggested to clients that they prep their action prior to sending them to me in order to save money. Their reply usually is "I don't know how to." Once I explain "how" most of these folks usually do a repectable job which seldom requires much more than a hit & a lick of polishing before I start cutting design. I maintain that those looking for help will find it here. The end product of their efforts generally reflects their patience & dedication to quality work. Folks like me have the benefit of being able to practice seven days a week, 10-12 hours a day. Imagin how good you'd be if you spent the same amount of time practicing along with guidence .

I believe there would be a lot of new folks join our group "IF" they knew there was also an active group of classic rifle affinadoes here. Ken

Ken if you can twist Dave's arm it would be great and am sure a lot of the ASSRA guy's would join. As they are hunting for the members that left. Whitey

Whitey, tell everyone the address here and the name of this forum. I feel sure the extra SS rifle guys would be welcomed by this group of guys AND, it wouldn't make the guys that advertise unhappy --- all's good for Dave. ken

Michael, I did a fair amount of relief carving when I built muzzleloading guns, but I'm afraid those days are past.
If you note the quarter panels on the forend of my .30-40 you'll see I got the idea from studying ealier guns like your Rolling Block. As I often say, When I need something new to incorporate in a custom gunmaking, I look in the history books.

It is a marvel to see these fine single shots after struggling for so many years to develop a historic context in my work with limited research material.
You and I need to publish books, my friend!

SDH-MT & Michael ---- Ammen to that cuz. Between the two of you, there's more than enough knowledge to put out a few books. Where do I sign up ? Ken

treblig1958

I appreciate your enthusiasm at my 100 yard group, just a lucky 15-shot group ;-). As a Schuetzen shooter who thinks a rifle should perform at the ½ -MOA level with lead bullets a 100 yard group just under an inch with jacketed bullets is OK for a Varmint rifle. This is a varmint rifle and made for shooting woodchucks so I’ll say it’s a “Minute of Woodchuck” rifle.

A.O. Niedner is marked on the barrel but this is not one of his custom barrels, he used both Winchester and Savage barrels in .25 caliber when building most varmint and target rifles. I don’t remember the twist but when I get time I’ll check.

Steven,

A wonderful idea and I’m honored that you would consider this. I am so far behind in my research, writing and my next book I just don’t see an end in sight. I’ve thought about this idea before and if I could do everything I wanted the book would be ‘Custom Single-Shot Sporting Rifles Then and Now” I contribute the “then” you the “Now”.

Regarding a new forum for classic rifles here, something like that would be a great idea but would also cost Dave more money, how much I have no idea. I would, as the saying goes, put my money where my mouth is and pledge $100 to startup cost.

Dave,

I had not thought about start up costs, but I will add my $100 to Michael's if you'll open another forum under this umbrella.

Couldn't it just be put with the double rifle forum we already have.That forum realy started with Franc Otte trying to build a single big bore out of a H&R. I would think the fine rifles would pick that forum up by leaps and bounds.I know I would spend more time looking there.

That's a good idea if it does not upset the folks who use the forum now. Dave could just play a bit with the name. Truth be told I had forgotten about that forum.

MP I'm sure it would be no problem for them as they are us and we would like it.

I am in favor of an additional forum so that the double rifle and bore rifle guys can have their space. I'm afraid that once we get started, we will overwhelm that forum.

Right now there is no one good forum on the net that I can talk about the stuff I like so much. Hopefully Dave can accommodate the folks who want to discuss fine rifles.



Even the lowly Trapdoor Springfield can be converted to a thing of beauty by the hands of a skilled artist and workman. Can anyone name the maker of this sporting trapdoor?

Man-o-Man MP,that is a real honey! Fine craftsmanship, exquisite lines!
Had a fellow asking about one like this years ago, even made some fullscale drawings. But I don't know if mine would have ever come out this nicely! Much better without a ramrod. Let's see the sideplate.
Looks Californian to me?

Steven, I only have the two pictures of this rifle, however Monte owned this at one time and made drawings of it. It was on the auction block a year or so ago and went well above my pay grade. I'm not sure who the current owner is. Did I say how much I like it ;-).

This years guild show in Reno really brought home to me the need for current makers to have a look at the past. I still vividly remember a well known rifle maker standing there holding the Kirkwood 1903 sporter in his hand and asking "Are you sure this was made before WWI".

Ken would sure like to see them sit this up.I would sure rather donate my money to a place I like. Whitey

Ken would sure like to see them sit this up.I would sure rather donate my money to a place I like. Whitey

Was it the Eli Whitney factory

Hello,
Do you know who converted it?
Or are you asking us to try to tell you?
It could be a Freund.
Enjoy the day, Mike

The trapdoor was converted by Carlos Gove, Denver, Colorado circa 1880, caliber is 44-90 Necked. The rifle sold at auction three years ago for over 10K.

Are there any more identified examples of work by Carlos Gove?

Michael,
Please, no customized trapdoors. For years, I have convinced myself they are too ugly to own. But pictures like that really kill my resolve - and bank account.



Brent

Yes, there are many, he made more on Remington Rolling Blocks than anything else. They are marked on the barrel with a stamp

"C. GOVE"
"DENVER COL"

Brent, there is a lot of very nice work out there. Even the well know makers turn out a rifle now and then that's IMO far above and over the top of the rest. I've most likely handled a couple hundred Griffin & Howe rifles and one day I pick one up and it about floored me, no engraving, just wood and rust blue metal. Everything came together on this rifle. I was at an auction and bid money I did not have so it's seems others saw the same thing. If that rifle EVER comes up for sale I'll have to go visit my banker.

I have had the same experience with G&H rifles. I bid on one at a country auction last year. It was more rifle than any G&H guns that were presently on the market at sensible prices. I bid accordingly and was soundly outbid by more than one bidder in the crowd of similarly impressed buyers.

Ken Dave is thinking about it. We need to let peole we know to log on here. Whitey

Dave, if you are counting heads, I'm all for a single shot or "classic rifle" forum on this site.

Brent

I love single shots.....classic rifles are pretty cool too!

I always thought "classic rifle" = single shot rifle. But Michael seems to be determined to prove me wrong.

If he, and Steve, and Glenn, and Doug and Ken keep posting pictures like these, two things will happen,

1. Folks will begin to flock to such a forum.

2. I will go broke

I would like to add a cautionary note to all this. If we are lucky enough for Dave to create a classic and SS rifle forum we must be careful not to import all the problems of the ASSRA over here. I would respectfully suggest that those battles be fought there and not here.

Under the heading of something you don't see everyday. A Remington Walker from the collection of Mr. Anonymous.

Well, since I suggested that this site also host a SS rifle/classic rifle forum ---- I wholeheartedly add my support to this proposed newforum. I know that many of my shotgun clients from this board also love Classic rifles and are crossover shooters. Yeah Mr. Dave, what do you think about widening the membership ? Ken

It’s never too early to think about Christmas and for those who are searching for that perfect gift for me, this rifle will be at auction in October, Hint, Hint.

Brent I do not see such a problem Here.As the people On the BOD that was playing jury,Judge and God will not be on any BOD here. Just my opion. But let us not forget there is lots of other clubs member who would be interested. Not because they are mad at thers but just to belong to another sit to enjoy talking about SS and classic guns. JMO Whitey

I'm in.

Would be welcome addition.

Recently attended a traveling exhibit at the Toledo Museum of Art, featuring the Best of the Best Furnishings from DuPont's Winterthur collection. From early New England 'William and Mary', thru to the highest forms of Baroque and Rococo, the icons of workmanship and style were there.

It has been said that great art can produce an emotional response in the informed viewer. After a few pleasant hours spent with the above collection, I will attest to that. And, the fine firearms field has no less greatness in it's aesthetics. Here's to future appreciation of the New Renaissance.

i like a pig---got a pet one now.

Count me in, especially if it's a Traditional Single Shot Rifle forum. I'm not much into repeating or single shot bolt guns
Set-Trigger

I think we're looking for more than that. There are single shot forums but there are no identified "early custom rifle" forums. Personally, I would like an "early and recent high quality custom rifle" forum without plastic and stainless.

I think Mr.Murphy's idea is the way to go, as it will give us access to the greatest number of really great firearms.I saw part of Dr.Smiths collection at a gun show in the early 70's in Wisconsin and I am still impressed.A custom gun forum could include the special order factory jobs too as well as the wonderful but relatively unknown work by makers Mr. Petrov specializes in unearthing.

How about single-shot bolt guns with set triggers like A.O. Niedner's "Hamburg" rifle below shown below.

I'll second that, "Early and Recent Custom Rifles" sounds good to me.

this one is not a custom.....maybe "fine rifles"?

Sorry guys, did not mean anything by that comment other than the fact that I'm personally not into any type of bolt action guns, that's just a personal thing, I'll still participate but only with things like Traditional Single Shot Schuetzen type Rifles, mostly guns with two piece stocks like Hi-Walls, Rolling Blocks, Sharps, Martinis, Ballard, Stevens, even the Ruger No. 1's, etc. the good old Single Shots, seems like I cant get into things like bolt guns, to many moving parts I guess
S-T

Nothing to apologize for, we all have our likes and dislikes. Many of the Schuetzen rifles were custom rifles with replacement barrels or stocks. Likewise with many of the other single-shots that were converted to sporting rifles.

Rifles with dog legs welded to one side are far from my favorite, but some that Michael shows seem kinda interesting.

Speaking of interesting. There is a alleged Zischang for sale on GI
http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100023624&string=cid=282

Brent,

I'd bet that the Zischang Borchardt is proper from end to end. Look at the lines of the stock, the shape of the action, the style of the false muzzle. A great rifle!

Hey all!

Was wonderin' where y'all were to.

Just finished reading this thread through, and got some good laughs, as well as seeing some nice work.

Cheers
Trev

I didn't really read the thread at all, trevj. But, I was wondering something- what the heck is with that pig on the rifle. One of his tusks are messed up............Oh geez. Now I've done it. I'm gettin' the heck outta here!!!.........Denny Crane

Mad Cow!! Haley's Comet!!...........Denny Crane

Denny do you see the Black Chopers overhead. Smile. Whitey

We now have our rifle forum!

OKAY Mr. Michael !!! This is the first I have heard of it, thanks. Now, how about filling us in on what you know. Ken

Ken, it is on this board, but go up one level (here http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm&c=1 ) and then look for the last forum on the list.

Brent

Hope the door doesn't hit you in the ars......Denny Crane

Hello Brent,

I agree with the use of the word 'alleged' in this instance. The rifle does appear to have many attributes that would seem to be of Zischang' origin. But, there are some modifications that would appear to have be added after A.O.Zischang died in 1925.

Looking at the photograph of the left hand side of the action, there are three modifications that look 'post' Zischang.

1. The presence of a gas relief vent on the upper side of the
breechblock. An addition applied to some rifles altered to
take high pressure cartridges, where primer piercing may
take place. (1930's onward vintage)

2. The addition of two screws above the large diameter 'Plug'
screw on the left side of the action body. Neither screw has
any useful purpose other than perhaps to be the anchoring
points for a side mounted rear sight. Hardly a likely
addition made by Zischang as he attached his typical 'Dolls
Head' mounted upper tang site base, which he fitted to the
Military Borchardts he modified.

3. The small cap screw near the rear upper rear of the
breechblock which permitted access to an adjusting screw set
in the firing pin which enabled the depth of sear engagement
to be adjusted. This latter item was first described and
published in The American Rifleman for Sept. 1946, years after
A.O.Zischang passed on.

An Zischang modified Borchardt? Certainly in many parts, but in my opinion altered further at a later date by person or persons unknown.

Harry

Harry, you are much more astute than I. I should have recognized the firing pin sear screw for what it was and what it meant. Good eye!

I gotta believe that a true Zischang, even with a single trigger, would never leave the shop needing something like this. Not to mention, its invention postdates the gunmaker.

Brent