Bought what looked to my untrained eyes like a fairly nice 16 ga SXS marked "F. Dumoulin & C ( There is a little IB with a underline next to this) LIEGE". Based on proof marks I was able to find it is modern.

In my hands it seems nice and tight. No wobble to it at all. Wood is nice and even though I have not fired it everything seems to work good. Even has little cocking indicators on top of the action that work.

Nice light, 6.3 pounds, little gun.....or so it seems?

Here is the problem. Looking at it today I noticed two things.

1. Right in front of the hanger for the forend there is a small ( 3/16? ) hole drilled, through which you can see up inside between the barrels. What is that for? Reblued? How do I tell if someone did a crazy and HOT SALT blued it??????

2. More trouble is that in looking at the locking lumps and the bearing surfaces on them I realized that there are little dimple marks. It's as if someone took a punch and went around the edges of them. Is that a half-jack attempt to tighten the action? If so it seems to have worked, temporarily?

Be gentle with me as I think the costs associated with the answers will more than serve as punishment for my ignorance.

And do offer some remidies if there are any........

And tell me how I tell if it is safe to shoot now that I am concerned?

I can email pictures if someone wants to really make me feel bad!!

I don't want to make you feel bad but I will post pictures for you on this thread if you email them to me.

mikeshepherd@suddenlink.XYZ

Replace the suffix XYZ with net

Best,

Mike

Here are the pictures Ben sent me:







Best,

Mike

Ben you are correct with both of your guesses. Putting the hook right is simple as soldering a shim on it after removing the raised part of the dimples.

That hole in the barrel might have been for a swivel, it doesn't look threaded, but do you have a hole in the stock where the other end of the sling went. Slings are very popular in Europe.

The hole is actually under the forearm which is original?

How expensive is that?

I gather it can wait till the action gets lose?

I know on most guns before and after the forend loop there is a hole for letting moisture and water out when barrels are rust blued.

JDW,

It does not look that bad. The hole is most likely original. I know many older guns have one. I would simply put a few drops of oil in it if I was concerned about rusting. The bad attempt at tightening seems to have worked. I would not fix what is not broken.

I assume you bought it as shooter. Enjoy it...

Pete

Bought it to shoot............

And as it seems from the replies that it is not a safety issue I'll shoot it till it's lose and then deal with it.

Thank you all for the knowledge.

Shoot it...when it get's loose again get the hook welded up. And chalk it up as a learning experiece.

....and who hasn't!

Fishdock, I'm pretty much a bottom feeder so I've gained some knowledge just from having to deal with my past mistakes. Yes, it was pinned, shoot it until it's loose (beleive me, it won't take long). Try shooting it with an aluminum shim for awhile (made from a strip of Al cut from a soda can). That should keep it going for quite some time. Then after you've shot the gun alot and know for sure it's a keeper do a proper repair. As far as the barrels being hot blued, it shouldn't matter as long as they were brazed (and not soldered) together, as most Belgium guns were. Check by taking a point and run it along the joint for 1/2 inch(underneath the forearm) to expose the soldering/brazing material. If it's copper colored you're okay.
About the punch marks, it may have already been punched, then properly fixed, with the punch marks still remaining. You won't really know unless it shoots loose after a short while. I unwittingly tried to repair an old Crescent that way once, the repair lasted less then 50 rounds. I next had the gun hook welded and I filed it to fit, the punch marks still remained even after a good long lasting repair had been made.
Steve

When it gets lose again, which I gather will be "sooner rather than later" how much will it cost to fix and where does it go?

Mind you it is not a special gun just a nice shooter.

I had Hugh Lomas put a gun back on face for me, It cost $300 and was worth every penny. The Crescent cost $45 for welding the hook and a lot of filing and fitting to cut the weld down and refit the hook. Because of other more serious problems it was more work then the gun was worth (chalk it up to learning). Like I said earlier, try the soda-can shim, it won't hurt anything and will last a long time.
Steve

I would second using Hugh Lomas. Does great work at a fair price.

I'm with Pete on all counts. While peening is looked down upon, it is somewhat effective. All traces of peening can be removed later during a weld and refit, if desire. Meanwhile, I'd use it with pleasure until it loosened up, if ever.

If it then needs work, I'd opt for the weld and refit over the shim method. But shimming has advantages for those that want to do their own fix and don't have access or experience to do the weld refit or don't want the expense.

You may want to determine if the barrels are damascus or homogenous steel. Also, the proofmarks may give some valuable info. Some pics of them could wrangle some good feedback from those knowledgeable in proofmarkings.

A lot of good advice.

Mike Orlen has been known to do good job of shimming as well. I would not consider this gun a mistake. It sorta fits my bottom feeding standards for a field gun. No offense meant... Believe me, I have made some whopper mistakes. Heck I have a closet full of mistakes!

Rockdoc is correct about the brazing. Pieper developed an oven to braze barrels in the mid-1890's. Since then, all but the top end Belgian guns passed through a brazing oven. So no worry about the blue job.

I think it was proofed in 1955. But could well be mistaken.
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Pete

fyi; Dumoulin made a variety of guns but seems to be known more as a better quality maker than a junk peddler. You didn't give a desription or pictures of the rest of the gun but I would guess that if the peened hook is the only issue it is probably still a good buy.

Also try hanging the barrels by the hook and tapping them with a wooden dowel both up an down the length of each barrel to listen for a clear bell like ring. If a rib is loose it will usually be apparent with a buzz or just a "flat" tone at some point.

Sometimes the extractors/ejectors may vibrate and can falsely sound like a loose rib.

I've heard of hanging the barrels by a string wrapped around the ejectors as an alternate method that can reduce that issue.
I've usually been able to fiddle with their position (in/out/etc) to solve that or isolate it enough to tell what was happning.

The ring test is not absolute. I had a gun with nice Boehler barrels that rang like a church bell all the way down but had been rust blued and you could see the beginings of rib seperations on very close visual inspection.

BTW; Make sure that the barrels are held above a soft cushioned surface just in case they slip and fall.

Thank you, all of you, for the information........

I'm now less worried and a lot clearer on a reasonable course of action. I'll shoot it till it gets lose and then deal with it.

Pete, you could well be right, though after rotating the posted photo showing the date and controller codes, my WAG would be it's a 'V', making it circa 1943, which also matches up w/ the controller code * over 'Z', but then again, that's one of the most popular controller codes, too.

In the Double Gun Journal an issure or three back, a guy wrote about how he tightened up a Nitro Special with sheet brass, doing the "repair" in the early 1960s, using (abusing, actually) the gun as his duck gun, with serious duck loads, for like, two decades, and selling it off to a guy who did more of the same. I had Mike repair a worn gun (a Tobin 12, not worth a big dollar fix) with a soldered shim, it works quite well.
I think I'd measure how much of a shim it needs, and use oiled paper for a while, to get a feel for how much you want to spend. Typical typing paper runs about .004, and lasts so long you might never do a "good" repair.
Best,
Ted

Joe Wood has superglued a steel shim in a couple of doubles for me. I don't have many rounds on them yet but if the next owner doesn't like them the superglue can be undone with an application of ungluer and the gun is back to the original "loose".

The best part is I give him shooting lessons to pay for the gun work. Last week I discovered he was closing the wrong eye. He was only hitting right to left targets!

Best,

Mike

"oiled paper"
"superglued steel"
"brass"

Are you guys messing with me or is this what I should really do when it gets lose? On one level it does make sense but on another I kinda feel "snipe" being hunted?

If you are not kidding tell me where the "oiled paper" goes, in the hook that slips over the hinge pin?
Or do I need to figure out how to get in on the second lug also?

I think I've heard it all now..shimming the hOOk on a SxS with typing paper. Excuse me but that's plum crazy.

Lets not forget a strip of Al from a soda can. Cut to fit and line the bearing section of the hook. Al is soft enough it will typically crush to the right thickness. Hold it in place initally with a dab of grease. That's what I like about these old guns, they're simple, the problems aren't brain surgery.
Steve

1943 would have been during the occupation. Highly unlikely that anyone was producing sporting arms in Belgium.

Pete

My favorite is duct tape. It really does work. You just have to keep replacing it.

Pete

But of course Pete - thank you for not blasting my ineptitude.
Last night I was apparently too focused on matching the pictured stamp to the referenced chart. I still think it looks most like the cursive small case 'v' - though it could not have been assembled in '43.

Randall, never would do that. I often fall to a recurring case of "hoof in mouth".

Pete

I went out and bought a couple of cheap stainless steel feeler gauge sets. The kind that fan out with 15 strips 3.5" long of various width from .002" to .025. Each strip will make a couple of shims. One of them will probably tighten up your gun.

Fishdock, all the shimming that has been mentioned I have seen mentioned before,
plus Scotch Tape.

Also saw once that an adhesive called "Black Max" was used to fit steel shims.
Unfortunately couldn't find it at Home Depot when I visited last month. Was told an
auto parts store was a better bet but didn't have the time to go looking.:-(

JC

I hear silly putty works wonders...

...and silly posts don't.

JC

Black Max and some other Loctite numbers will adhere a steel shim to the hook. SS feeler gauges are pretty springy but some sort of round bar for clamping (Mike Orlen uses transfer punches; the graduation by 1/64s allows you to find just the right one)may shape it to the face of the hook while the BM cures. Anyway, no one is pulling your chain; shimming does work.

jack

Thank you everyone.

A learning experence........and amusing too.

Just goes to show your lack of imagination, jOe. The brass shim was used in the Nitro Special, that was written about in DGJ, for decades, with regular use with hot loads. The new owner knew about it when he bought the gun and continued right along. Normal typing paper, with a coating of oil, doesn't compress, at least not much. As long as you know it is there, and don't take the gun apart, it can't really go anywhere.
A good repair can be done in the future, after our hero has discoved other facts about the gun, like, for instance, if he can hit anything with it, or, if it needs other big dollar repairs. In the meantime, he can use it with a shim to discover other warts, or. lack thereof. At least it doesn't look like he will be sleeving it, eh jOe?
Best,
Ted

Fishdock why Ted's calling you "our hero" is beyond me.

Don't pay him too much attention his mind is scrambled from pumping up and down on his priZed Mossbergs.

I guess that's why he likes those darne French shotguns....I hear tell they are the next best thing to a Mossberg.

Anyone who tries to rescue an old two holer is a hero to me, jOe.

Can you explain why the typical jOe post is so short on facts pertinent to the discussion at hand?

The Mossbergs aren't "prized" except, at gun safety training for the newbies to use, but, the Remington 17 and the model 12 might be, I suppose. Along with the Darne.

What useful information have you added to the discussion here?



Best,
Ted

His usual contribution: snotty dumb quips. Chopper

Teddy seems yOu like to try and trip my trigger but you have a problem taking it like a man...least I've owned some guns that were worth "sleeving"....darne it.

I got to give to you..you really added a lot to this thread...telling a guy to shim his gun with s piece of typing paper....lol

Shimming is a legit fix. The objective of "on-face" is to have the barrels tight against the breech face when the gun is closed and locked. A few thousandths inch gap between the hook and the pit will cause "off-face." Filling those few thousandth with a shim will solve the problem. First, the shim must be mostly imcompressible, like metal or oiled paper. Second, the shim must have some resistance to wear, like kept clean and lubed. The longivity of the shim depends on the quality of lube maintenance, material used, tightness/correctness of original fit, and the pressure of loads used. An attached shim is more convenient at cleaning time, but an unattached shim is easily put back in place after cleaning.

Shimming a bearing, which the hook and pin are, is not news in the world of mechanics; people have been doing it for many years in more demanding applications than on sporting guns.

Keith Kearcher has done a few for me. great work, fast turn around.

I think Tom Joad did his over a ditch in the rain in Grapes of Wrath--rod bearings of course but as Don says, same principle--taking up the slack.

jack

Brian does Keith prefer scotch tape or oiled typing paper ?