Now U find a classic American double gun and it has name of original owner engraved on the barrel or triggerguard. The person is regular citizen not well known. Does that make the gun more or less vbaluable or same as if the name was not engraved? Your opinion plz.
Agree, less, if any value change at all. To a shooter, why would it matter either way? If this is a "collector" grade gun, my opinion would be as stated.
If it is a Parker there is no telling what it does to value. My shooting student Joe Wood is a Parkerphile and he has got the geneology down on one of his old Parkers. He knows who the original owner was, what he did (lumberman), where he lived, and what duck club he belonged to. He knows that he sent it back to have ejectors put in. The guy was just a regular small business guy. If that guy's name had been on the rib I think it would increase the value.
Best,
Mike
In the case of my 1899 hammerless mid-grade Francotte, "Made for C.W. Billings" on the rib followed by the gold bar makes it more valuable to me. A very discriminating American placed an order with VLD for a lovely open-choked 12 gauge.
Everyone has a story and they say everyone is within just three people to get to someone famous. If aperson is willing to do the reserch I'm sure any name on a gun could add to its value to the right person.
Cool double rifle j0e! I don't think Angelina would approve of me shooting elephants though.
Best,
Mike
If it follows nearly every other collecting area the answer is less. Only two exceptions, the person is famous and has a name recgnized by nearly everyone, or you happen to sell to a family descendent of that person.
As with all antiques "PROVENANCE IS EVERYTHING" even if only connecting an item with average & ordinary people. As I have observed before "If every gun could tell it's story" ,even the old broken down Belgian hammergun, it's very history would enhance it's value (In my humble opinion).
Best Regards, George
I think it depends on more than one thing. As others have posted, if the person were somehow prominent or famous, the value could increase. But not necessarily.
Also, I think it could devalue a gun significantly, if the engraving of the name were done exceptionally poorly and somehow distracting, such as inordinately large or in a very conspicuous location, etc, etc.
I have a R Grade Baker that has someones name engraved on the trigger guard. I oft think when I take it out in the field he travels with me. I would like to think he is pleased to share those days with me.
If the engraved/inlayed name, signature, or initials are factory original to the gun; and not something added aftermarket, they certainly do not make the gun any less collectible, desireable, or valuable regardless of the fact that the original owner cannot be identified. In the situation whereby such personal markings can conslusively link that gun to a celebrity or famous individual; values are most definately increased, as we have seen with guns owned by Teddy Rossevelt, Annie Oakley, and many others. I recently saw a Smith gun that originally belonged to the famous explorer, Admiral Peary; and one would certainly be correct to assume that his gold inlayed signature on the trigger guard increased its desirability and monetary value. But even in a worst case senario where the original owner's ID cannot be easily ascertained, such personal markings do not impact a gun's value and desireabilty as a shooter. I am aware of instances where reseachers finding such guns are often intrigued to the point of purchase by the possibility of those identifiers being the key to discovering a guns interesting history. Over the years I have personally witnessed and experienced dealers discounting the value of a gun offered to them by a seller because it had an owners initials engraved on the stock shield. In my opinion, such dealings are a bit under-handed as I don't believe anything so insignificant has ever detered anyone from buying what was otherwise a desireable gun; but to each his own, as everyone can make his own determination in that regard.
U find a classic American double gun and it has name of original owner engraved on the barrel or triggerguard. The person is regular citizen not well known. Does that make the gun more or less vbaluable or same as if the name was not engraved?
The question is not about a famous person, or initials on a stock shield, or inlayed gold...making the answer still 'less', IMHO.
Tom, I quess the new owner of the Admiral Perry gun able to finally get the trigger guard for it. The last time I talked (emailed) he didn't have it yet. I'm glad if he finally got it.
I know he was sending it to be looked at here in Pa.
Yes, I saw the owner in March and he does have the original guard with Peary's gold inlayed signature. He is addressing the broken stock at this point; and hopefully we will all get to see the restored gun and read the story in the near future.
I didn't contribute to this thread, even though I have a strong opinion that provenanced guns are of great interest to serious collectors, regardless of the magnitude of the provenance. By the way, the Peary gun is finished, I have seen it, it is wonderful, and I think it's provenance adds multiples to that particular gun. Some guns, like those of Annie Oakley, are also increased in value by multiples. Some, previously owned by lesser known individuals, are increased in value somewhat less, but some nonetheless.
I didn't see this thread when I started. I have a Baker Paragon with the, I assume, original owners intials on the trigger guard. Very ornately done. I will always wonder who the guy is, but I personally don't think it has in this case, it has any deterent on the value at all. Would the intials GAB on this early Baker mean anything to anyone here?
The origional trigger guard was badly broken and a like new origional guard was sent to me along with a picture of the original guard/signature. A few weeks later I finished inlaying the name and sent it back. Great pains were taken to exactly duplicate the Adm. signature --- it was inlayed with 24ct gold. FWIW
I think it also depends on HOW it is engraved on the gun. If it was done with an electric Vibra-etch on any exposed area, it'll be worth less unless the gun is somehow historically significant and the Vibra-etch is part of the story (highly unlikely, but then stranger things have happened). If it was done by a very famous engraver and done very tastefully in terms of location and style, it may or may not add to value for the reasons others have stated.
HJ Hussey was a crook of some note but that hasn't hurt the value of guns he made.
Agree fully with Mr Topgun and Mr Eightbore.
Bill McPhail
If the name was unique enough that it could be traced so I could learn a bit about the guy, I would consider it more valuable. EVen if he happens to just be an "average" Joe. I would sure want to know which average Joe he was and it would increase the appeal of the gun for me substantially.
Brent
I would love to have a Lindner Daly with Bill Wise scratched on it. Not many folks know him but the value to me would be twice the regular price of any other gun.
Hang on Amigo......I'll have one for you in a few minutes....
Tim
Having someone else's initials on one of my guns, well I can deal with that, but having someone's name engraved on my gun really bothers me. Unless I bought the gun for the providence in the first place. Yikes, I sound like a double talking politician.
Tim
What about initials embossed on the leather case it is in, would that have a tendency to reduce the value of the deal, gun & case?
1) About the same?
2) Some, but not as much?
3) Not at all?
binko
I have a W&C Scott ca 1863/65 Pinfire which has on the Rib, presumably put there by the maker "For Ben'j D Kennedy Louisville KY". I purchased it from a Louisville collector & he told me he had done some research on Mr Kennedy & all he was able to find was a buisness license for a Jewlery Store in Louisville during the period the gun was built. He apparently was neither born nor died there, as neither birth or death certificates could be found.
This to me adds interest to the gun even though I know little about the man.
I would agree though if it was put on in a sloppy manner it would certainly detract.
I think having someone's name on the gun (who is just a regular Joe) decreases the value. I have a Model 21 that has someone's name on the rib. It a Custom Grade with #2 engraving. I expect to get less than the gun is worth, which sold for $10,000 in the Custom Shop, but a lot more than the $5,000.00 that I paid for it. By the way, the name on the gun is Fred Remington. Any of you guys know him? He is supposed to have lived up in the north east. And from what I hear, he had several 21s.
I remember reading once that Clark Gable sold Roy Rogers his Grade 5 Model 12 after a bad day at the trap range. I believe he sold it for a dime. Ouch!!
A gun engraved with my name would definately lessen it's value.
So much for provenance. I'll never buy a Clark Gable gun. By the way, a Bill Wise Lindner was sold at the Vintagers. Maybe the buyer will speak up.
Wouldn't matter a lick to me, if I liked the gun otherwise. I might try to convince the seller that it made it worth less, however. That's just part of the game.
Speaking of Clark Gable, here is a partial entry from the 1934 Abercrombie & Fitch Firearms Inventory and Gun Sales. As I was pointing out to everyone that I could buttonhole at the display I had at the Vintagers, on December 7, 1934 Clark Gable bought a G&H rifle in 30-06 for Constance Bennet, his co-star in a movie at that time called "After Office Hours". Possibly a very nice Christmas present.
If it is a gun you own and you plan to keep until the end, then I think the point is moot. If it is a gun you're thinking about buying, then I would think an owner's initials or name could add some intrigue to the gun if done tastefully and skillfully.
Bob Beach, do the G&H ledgers include the G&H number? Sorry I missed you at the Vintagers but you seemed to be busy whenever I was in the booth. Bill Murphy
Bill,
Yes, the A&F records list the G&H barrel number as the serial number, but only those guns sold through the A&F store are listed. Ironically, we do not have the sales records for the firearms sold directly through Griffin & Howe before 1976. Early on, both A&F and G&H had their own building, showroom and inventory and the A&F records show guns transferred to and from the G&H inventory. In a very few cases a 'used' rifle with its production serial nummber is shown as transferred to G&H to become G&H rifle number xxx.
I bought this Colt 1883 (with the awful restock job) some years back simply because I liked the engraving and the initials shown here intrigued me.
You probably won't buy Clark Gable's Model 12 that he sold to Roy Rogers, eightbore. A few years ago the gun sold for $35,000.00.
Bob, thank you for the information. The early G&H numbers would be among the most interesting information in your research project. Alex, restock or not, I would be requesting a Colt letter on that gun.
Yes, now that I've seen the pictures, I would want a letter even more. A friend took a shot in the dark and requested a letter on a lower grade gun with a very low serial number and found that it was a presentation to a Colt attorney. Your gun has more clues than just a low serial number. The high grade and the initials make it worth the cost of the letter.
Hey, I have vintage Smith-Corona, ole' paper, ink tape plus vivid imagitation. May I offer my assistance?
My FE grade Lefever has a stock oval with the initials CCB engraved on it, and I bought the gun from CCB's son-in-law. He related to me the story of how upset his father-in-law was during an early 1960's house fire and how he was imploring and directing the firemen to concentrate their efforts on the part of his home that held this gun. I'll assume the wife and kids were already safely outside. Ol' CCB was my kinda guy and obviously took care of his gun. His initials are engraved rather lightly and could be easily struck off and replaced with my own, but I would never do that to him.
In 1978 I went to a store in Atlanta, Ga. called Atlanta Outfitters, Fine Guns Ltd. (as I recall) They had the best collection of fine guns I have ever (before or since) seen in one place. I recall a boxed set of H and H doubles. One in 375 and the other in 303. They were asking $25,000 for the set with all the cleaning rods, oil bottles etc. When I turned around, there was a Browning Superposed with a gold inlay of Elvis Presley. It was marked $35,000. Quite frankly, I almost puked! Needless to day, at the time, I could afford neither. But if.....
That Super might have belonged to Elvis at one time, Tyler. He had one made up for himself that Galazan was selling a few years ago. But I don't know if that was the same one or not.
I have to agree with Tyler on his comment regarding Atlanta Outfitters; they had the most amazing display of high-end, high-dollar double guns I've ever seen in one shop. I believe it was 1977 when I first visited; and fresh out of college and with two infant sons and a wife, I couldn't have afforded a "just lookin" cover charge had such been assessed to enter. But the display was absolutely awesome; and although I can't recall everything I saw, nor had enough double gun education at the time to fully appreciate most of what I did see, I can remember cased high-end Prdeys and Holland and Hollands (one of which was a double rifle in .22 rimfire), several high-end Francottes in 28 and 410 bore, a row of Parker .410s (I counted no less than 15), a Parker A-1 Special, a Smith DeLuxe, and President Ben Harrison's Optimus LeFever (and I remember well its shocking price tag of $100K!). I don't know what happened, as they weren't in business very long; but I wish I knew then what I know now about double guns so that I could have fully appreciated all the wonderful guns I held and admired.
I still have the Atlanta Outfitters list of Parkers, complete with serial numbers. One of these days, I'm going to compare the serial numbers of the A1 Specials and high grade .410s and 28s in the list with the Serialization List and see how many started life as VHEs.
Jimmy, that gun had been made for him. I am sure there was only one person with that much money and that little taste. I would certainly know it if I ever saw it again. Like topgun, at the time I could not afford anything there, just tried not to drool on the floor.
I gathered enough change for that wonderful 7&1/2" Colt Bisley 32WCF and went to get it. It was made in 1907 and the barrel was mint on it, but original? hombre who owned it left a mark on frame under grip Arbuncle? Oregon 1912. Shit, that day I wished my last name was Arbuncle, but it ain't and he was no "bro" either.
