At the Southern SXS Shoot Friday I picked uo a rebarelled Wm R
Schaefer 10 Ga Hammer Gun, Awaitng Damascus Barrells seller left at home.
Barrells: 31 1/2 in, 3 3/4 in chambers,Rib-"MAGNUM", on top of
each bbl-"ACTER ROELHER BLITZ", Bottom of each bbl-3 Stars,
bbl flats-"PST" with star inside a circle,"FINITO" and X/X,
On proximal Left BBl-"ARMI GIOVANELLE L&C"
"GARDONE V T (BS) ITALY"
Any knowledge of the Rebarreller? Value Added?
Gun is Has 98% of original Nickle Plating, Screws unturned, 4-pin
lock and Gold oval-original
Excellent condition. Unseen Damascus BBLS May have to be refinished
Any comment greatly appeciated.
Bill McPhail
Bill, I think the inscription you are seeing is "Acier Boehler"{ steel by Boehler}. If so, it is a fine steel from Austria I would guess. For a shooter a set of extra barrels seems really neat. Do you think the original barrels might have been plated, too ?
No info for you on the folks who did the rebarrel, but "acier Boehler blitz" means that the steel is "Blitz" from the Boehler works which is definitely good stuff.
Hmmm... Looks like we 'doubled' on this one Daryl!
Bill, Sounds like you did good, hard to go wrong with a Schaefer, Pictures we want pictures ;-).
The engraving school founded by Cesare Giovanelli is in Val Trompia. I suspect the insciption means tha Cesare and a brother whose first name started with "L" did the barrels.
I got this gun from a Dealer of High Grade but not Hammer Guns. He told me it cost more for the rebarrelling than the gun was
worth and he had the Damascus barrells at home. I suspect the they are in
good shape as the rest of the gun is great. At first I
thought
it was refinished but a closer look showed unturned screws. With
Nickle plating it would be very hard to remove screws wiyh out
some minor damage and the slots are perfectly inline.
I doubt if the barrells are plated or the dealer would have
mentioned it.
Got a Heck of a deal even if I never get the Damascus BBLS
Will try to get pictures on Tuesday.
Thanks
Bill
I got this gun from a Dealer of High Grade but not Hammer Guns. He told me it cost more for the rebarrelling than the gun was
worth and he had the Damascus barrells at home. I suspect the they are in
good shape as the rest of the gun is great. At first I
thought
it was refinished but a closer look showed unturned screws. With
Nickle plating it would be very hard to remove screws wiyh out
some minor damage and the slots are perfectly inline.
I doubt if the barrells are plated or the dealer would have
mentioned it.
Got a Heck of a deal even if I never get the Damascus BBLS
Will try to get pictures on Tuesday.
Thanks
Bill
Bill,
It sounds like it could be an Italian gun with some of the best barrels around. Bohler is a steel company in Austria. Still in business. The Blitz means Lightning. They are reputed to make very light weight barrels that are very strong, mainly for the better German makers.
If you could provide a picture of the markings.... There could be a date stamp.
If it is an Italian gun, you would really want those damascus barrels! It would be a very rare bird. If it is German / Austrian, they often used some of the better damascus on the market.
Pete
McPhail:
If you think you have pattern welded Italian tubes, I don't know if we could wait till Tuesday to find out. The new tubes have an Austrian origin as mentioned a couple times and more info can be found here at:
http://www.bohlersteel.com/ . From the info you have provided, the new tubes were proved in Gardone post 1950 w/ "STAR in CIRCLE) over PSF & FINITO(1923-1950 would have a crown instead of a star) and the choke marks(2.11.1962 or was that the date for "**" over "PSF" for over 17k psi or both). I'm curious if the 3 stars are choke or preliminary or provisional proof. The "PST" you mention is "PSF"(Polvere Sensa Fumo) which is smokeless proof in contrast to "PN" - pulvere nero. I stumped a little on the "X/X" unless it is for the number 20 added to the 1945 for the code system.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
According to my year code information; XX is the year code for 1964?
Jim
Now that I ponder on it a bit, it may be "XIX" which would be 19. And Jim your are correct as it would be something like (N-1) + 1945 so (20-1)+1945 would be 1964 and (19-1)+1945 would be 1963.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks Gentlemen for all your comments. The receiver and forend
are Wm. R Schaefer Boston 1870's. The XX May be XIX.On the left bbl flat is "1 S",and a sheild with crossed swords'-possibly a crown-very hard to see- This also has a encircled star over it.
Probably cann't get pictures until Tuesday.
Thanks again
Bill
I consider Bohler to be a sign of quality on modern guns just like Whitworth is a sign of quality on older guns. They don't use the best on the cheap stuff.
bill
McPhail:
For now on the "1S", I don't have a clue. But the other mark inside a shield is something of the sorts of an anvil atop a scepter w/ a set of crossed longarms w/ bayonets overstamped. Anyone know if it is an anvil and/or scepter?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey
Your description of the sheild is much more precise than mine.
Thats most likely what it is.
The "S" might be a "5"
Thanks
Bill
Bill, so I've only seen a handful of Schaefer guns, are you saying that some were originally nickel plated? I recently saw a 10 sell at auction for next to nothing. I had glanced at it, but it looked like it had been entirely polished to 'in-the-white'. I assumed to remove all of the rust and pitting, never gave a thought about nickel plating. Funny thing is... I thought to myself, Bill would cry if he saw this gun. I'll stick to my original assessment of this gun... or was I wrong?
There are several Schaefers I know of that are nickel plated. Other Boston makers such as Joseph Tonks regularly plated his guns.
The three Stars would indicate the choke. At this point in time * = full, ** = 3/4, *** = ½, **** = ¼ & CL = cylinder. Since the Roman Numeral dating system began with I in 1945 I find the easiest way is to simply add the number to 1944. This will of course give identical results as N-1 + 1945. This would of course give the date the new set of bbls were proofed.
Would it be safe to assume the guns mentioned as being found with the Nickle plating were expected to see use for coastal waterfowling & the nickle was for better protection against the salty atmosphere.
Both bbls are @ .760 in the last 6 in without significant constiction and marke with3 stars.
Have a Kirkwood Boston 1881 12 ga light weight gun that is
Nickle plated. Had a Tonks Light 12 plated. Agree about
salt water metal protection, but these Boston Makers
used it on upland field guns
Thanks
Bill
Barrells: 31 1/2 in, 3 3/4 in chambers
3-3/4" chambers? Bill is that correct?
Yes 3 3/4 in-"MAGNUM" on rib, 31 1/2 bbls
Thanks
Bill
Michael thanks for posting the pictures. Haven't taken the hammers off-will get a expert to do that-I would likely bugger it
up. 9 lb 12 oz. bbls 5lb 3oz. Across the Breech 2 1/2 in
Now awaiting the original bbls.
Thanks to all
Bill
When Bill showed me the gun in NC, he was pretty sure he was going to find the LDN under the hammers. An old bigbore shooter like me, I'm maybe a bit more interested in loading some heavy loads to shoot through those blued barrels.
Bill, Michael, ...thanks for the knowledge. I did a bit of research on nickel plating history, interesting. Looks like a nice gun Bill, congrats.
I surely could use some of that 'plating' on my upland guns, the season seems to produce snow, sleet, or freezing rain for me... mixes them all together some days. I have held some of your single-shots. I'm just curious what a lightweight Tonks or Kirkwood 12 might weigh?
Mortimer & Kirkwood Hammerless Boston 1881 Plated- 6lb 15 oz
Tonks 12ga @7lb 8 oz-Both light for American guns of the era.
Had a Schaefer & Sons 8 ga single with all metal including bbls
plated. Damascus bbls in the mail. Seller says bbls "pretty Good"
-Excitement mounts.
Thanks
Bill
Handled a Remington 1894 that was "factory" nickel plated.
Nice gun...you think the fancy wood is original ?
Yes, the wood and finish are original. Condition is the
same as finish ae the metal. Quality of the wood is typical
of other Schaefers and high grade custom shotguns of the era.
Thanks
Bill
If it's original it might be serial numbered to match the gun...it just looked kind of fancy for that gun.
Original damascus bbls arrived this Am. After 2 minutes of steel
wool use they cleaned up well. 32 in, 4 lb 13.5 os. Mirrow bores
with few flecks-light polish would make new, @ 80% Damascus
pattern with some pinprick pitting on proximal 2 inches.
No Serial #. Continental proofs-best seen in pictures.
Pictures to be posted soon. Please make further comments.
Thanks
Bill
Love the powder horn. Did you do all the work on it, MP ?
Love the powder horn. Did you do all the work on it, MP ?
Not sure how I managed to post that picture. Dennis Poss made that for me, found it on my front porch about a month ago.
Bill sorry if this distracts from the Schaefer, fine set of barrels glad it all worked out so well.
Love the Horn-doesn't distract at all
Thanks for all the help
Bill
Not a problem, this is what the rest looks like.
Michael... nice horn, but where are the birds on that map? Or should we assume everywhere!
Bill, looks like a fine package deal. Quite the doublegun waterfowl 'cannon', for the past, today, and tomorrow. I've picked up a couple of those lightweight 'American upland' guns, just none with the plating. I'm pleased that most think that American 12's are all 'pigs'... and that most English guns are 6 1/2 pounds...??
HJ, I was never questioning what Bill saw or purchased, just wanted some more info. He's quite the educated man, a pleasure to meet. Plenty of very fine wood available in the early years.
McPhail:
If those Belgian tubes w/ the intertwined EL with the "Crown" over "A" on each tube are yours, then nice find McPhail and the extra set tubes were well worth the effort. Can't wait to see it in person, that is if your son doesn't sell it.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Woo Hoo! I love it when the "other" set of barrels turn out to be wonderful. Congratulations!
And that is a beautiful horn Michael, exquisite work! But where's Rocky??
Definitely a Boston best....in the pictures the damascus barrels look like they took quite a ding at the top of the chambers.
With the help of PeteM I have found out some more Info. "Intertwined EL in script" is Belgian Prvoisional Proof. "18.2" is
bore measured in Millimeters. "Crown over A" is the Mark of
Ancion Dieudonne & Co(1842-1867) which in 1867 1873 was Ancion
Dieudonne & Fils-the barrell maker. The gun has rebounding Hammers. This would put the gun in the earley 1870's.
Thanks to All
Bill
Nice find Bill!
Joe,
Even the Schaefers with no engraving have high grade wood and exquisite fit/finish.
Bill,
Glad it was helpful for you. I have posted my listing of Belgian maker's marks on-line.
It is compiled from many sources, including a list for Joe Vorisek, LittleGun, "Qui est Qui" and others. The list is still growing with over 1,000 entries.
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.htmlPete
