Joe,
I sincerely hope you are right,last week I was with a top European cartridge manufacturer, he said that they would probably go up in price even further due to the U.S. Economy, the price of oil (manufacture of plastic wads needs oil).I said no way but he was insistant.Saying that Nobel have just increased prices and also Spanish Industrial giant UEE.So hold your breath boys we could be in for a rough ride.Two of my friends have already 'retired' and gone fishing.

If lead prices don't come down soon, I'm going to start buying Chinese made toys and squeeze the lead out.

Actually, the material costs involved in shotshells is probably a small percentage of the retail price. I bet transportation is starting to take a big bite.

Chuck- I'll bet transportation isn't just begining to take a huge cut. I'm sure it's been doing it for some time. Shot is ordered by the carload and sold by the bag. Ammunition is transported to the city of sale in trucks burning diesel. The railroad car is pulled by a locomotive burning diesel. The store is heated or cooled by electricity produced by burning oil.

What I'm so clumsily trying to illustrate is the impact of oil prices on shot and ammunition (and every thing else we do). Even if the price of lead fell dramaticly, the price of ammunition would remain high.

Cary

The cost of lead is certainly a minor factor in the recent rise in cost of factory ammo. At $35/bag for magnum shot and higher priced primers (powder & wads haven't changed much), it costs me $3.85 to load a box of 1 ounce shells. If I paid $50/bag, my cost would rise to $4.80/box. Over the last decade my handloads have gone up maybe $1/box; factory ammo jumped $3/box in the last year. Last I looked, WalMart was charging $7.74/box for AA's & STS and they don't carry the 1 ounce loads I want.

The ammo manufacturers forward buy commodities offering themselves some insulation and allowing them to delay implementing a price increase. As thier inventories were depleted and they had to start passing along the cost they did it in a short period of time rather than a long drawn out series of little jumps. The cost of lead in a box of shells is up about $2.60 in the last year. They have passed it and the rising cost of fuel and the oil based polymer plastics are probably the rest of the increase. I dont think the ammo companies are getting rich on this. If anything it erodes thier margins.

I deal in high volume purchasing of food and this is just like what is happening with the price of chicken. Simple put chicken is assembled out of grain and eggs. The cost of grain is skyrocketing and the chicken guys are hard pressed to pass along all of the increase without driving down demand by pricing themselves out of the market. They need to pass the increase in their raw materials but can't be cavalier about it...

Jeff

Don't worry about lead boys, its the other stuff you may have to shoot that is in short supply. Just think how crappy you'll feel shootin' steel from that expensive 28b damascus quail wand!
Ouch!

All this talk about banning lead. Trust me, 40 years from now we'll still be using lead in the Republic of Texas....

I was lucky enough to have a buddy (who had quit shooting trap years ago) give me 8 bags of shot last year for $50.00 when he was cleaning out his garage. Then his brother in law gave me three more bags. So, I never had to worry about it.... It's just like gasoline. It doesn't matter how much a gallon of gas costs to me. When I go and get gas, I buy $20.00 worth. That lasts me for close to a month. Since I retired, I hardly even drive, except for maybe once or twice a week. If it gets up to $10.00 a gallon, all they'll get is .......you guessed it.....$20.00. That's all they're going to get from me.....$20.00.

The problem with that chart is that I quit buying shot long before January and $40.00 a 25lb bag. At a trading price of $1.00 per pound 25lbs equals $25.00 and they haven't made it into shot yet and gotten it to a store near you or me. If shot gets to $25.00 a bag I may start shooting again if I can afford to drive to the range?

Gee, the price of 28ga Winnie target loads at Walmart is $10.88/box now.

Can you get good shot for $35 a bag? Everyone out here is $50. Sportsman's Warehouse is our best source. BassPro was $60, last time I looked. I sure hope the downward trend is real.

$37/25# here, or so I was told last night. That was a club buy, not a retail store.

Brent

Petro based economy means cost of transportation will make all prices rise to the tide of oil pricing, and as we all know, the tide there seems to ever rise.

Batteries, gentlemen, batteries... if the US gov would only invest and/or encourage battery technology development instead of wasting Billions in Iraq we would all be much better off. Our futures would be far better off. If we had better battery technology we could end our dependence on old-style power sources (from cars and trains to the generation of power for the grid). As someone who has been involved in the utility business for over 25 years I can say aloud that the single most important improvement that would, in fact, end our dependence on Petroleum (or need for more nuclear) would be if we could store power more efficiently and the key to that door is battery technology. We have the means, but we have sorely lacked the will at the highest levels. Cost of lead to us or cost of ammo---the rising prices for oil/petro products means higher costs no matter what the raw costs may be.

I am tired of sheiks and their good buddies in gov artificially forcing the prices to rise on the things important to me in my life.

Battery powered autos would be great if you could get any power or distance from them. No sun in the winter means no solar power for a solar powered car. Another problem is that you have to plug them in and charge them creating more cost for your electric bill which causes greater use from your power plants. They also worsen the environment from the pollution the fumes give off when they are being charged. Some people get the idea that battery powered cars are great, but they don't realize the power to recharge the batteries doesn't come from the jellybean factory. Good luck.

As someone who IS actually off the grid and make my power from the sun in the Northeast, there are some facts you might want to know:
1) Solar power comes from light.
2) Many days in winter have more intense light than many summer days and sometimes you actualy get more charge on a winter day.
3) Most of the lies about problems with solar power are from those who want to continue dependence on fossil fuels (oil, etc) you see---the people making money now from the oil paradygm can't figure out how they can make as much on solar so they spread untruths and get the average Joe to spread negatives about solar.
4) I could power a car on MY OWN solar (or wind or hydro) so contrary to above that would NOT increase demand from the grid.
5) The line about "They also worsen the environment from the pollution the fumes give off when they are being charged" is almost so funny I can barely type. The pollution from a petro car is many thousands of time higher than the slight off-gasing from batteries. The difference is like comparing Mount McKinley to a hill in your back yard. Most people have there rechargeable batteries in their homes and it is NOT a source of pollution even approaching what their gas stove gives off.
6) Your right electric power does not come from Jeyybean factory it comes form the SUN, (or wind or hydro). The worst factories on the planet however ARE fossil fuel and nuclear power plants. I know I have spent 26 years around them...

Some Facts: I make my own power. I am not hooked to the grid. I have been this way for 3 years. I have saved thousands and yes we pollute much much less than the average household. As soon as I can afford to do so I will buy electric cars, increase my own power production (from sustainable sources,) and prove all the myths and lies about why sustainable electricity can't be done utterly wrong. Thus far I have been able to prove 75% of them wrong. I am not hooked to the grid and I intend never to be again in my life. And I did it for fractions of what the "experts who want everyone to stay addicted to petroleum want you all to believe". And, obviously, they can get plenty of people who have not actually TRIED or actually made their own power---and have no actual knowledge---spread total falsehoods about making your own electricity sustainably. It astonishes me how many experts there are "out there" who do not know what they are talking about... To all of you who want to make your own electricity I say: Don't listen to all the naysayers. It can be done! And it is easier than anyone is telling you! I have no powerlines on my property but my girlfriend and I have the electricity we need, and my batteries do NOT pollute in a year anywhere near what the average gas lawnmower does in a week.

If the US spent a fraction of the money on Battery / Storage Technology that is spent on searching for OIL we could dramatically increase the electric storage of batteries / storage vessels, and we would all get 300-400 miles on a charge on our vehicles or use sustainable sources like the sun to generate all the electric power we need.

It is a matter fo leadership. We need leaders who will no longer suck on the tit of those who want us all dependent on the old petroleum model. I say it is a horribly antiquated system and we can improve the electrc storage technologies (which is the only drawback now) if we put "real" money and resources into it instead of keeping the old system going... I mean, whale oil lamps were once the standard too. But it took real leadership and money to replace oil lamps with electric lamps. We can do the same. Make Your Own Power. I do and it is great!

Yeh, there is local homeowner with fancy solar power setup and he actually sells extra energy to Dominion VA power.
This will never work, because golden white boys family and friends have to much vested in oil-generated energy. His daddy must have made a fortune from "military hardware inc" holdings after sonie caused shitpile in Iraq, eh?
PS. I would not vote for that ole fart, because he might bomb Iran making the pile several X larger!

Thanks Joe, for another non-event. The price of Fiocchi 28ga Field and Target loads at Gander Mtn. is $8.99 (up from 6.99/box), and there will only be further increases.

Yogi000

I'm curious as to how you heat your house being in Ithaca. Also, I could use very little energy here in North Carolina if I didn't use air conditioning. I'm afraid that most of us are addicted to AC.

Best, Dick

Most people in Ithaca heat with oil or gas, some even with grid electric although that could result in 1000 a month heating bills even in small home or apartment, and many people have a wood stove to augment their heating.

Our home is quite efficient, yet it could be better. Aside from using max use of the sun exposure and yes heating with the sun is a part of what we do, we heat just with wood... we will go through under a cord of wood this winter and it was a long winter. Many people who heat with wood go through 6 to 7 cord in a winter around here. Last year we used 3/4 cord and the year before we used 3/4 cord. A pittance compared to anyone I know in the Northeast. My buddy has $600-$700 a month heating bills using oil AND he will go through 5 - 6 cord of wood.

When funding allows I plan to heat MORE with solar using solar heat collectors.

Yogi 000:

I know that the theme is off topic, but sounds very interesting your solar energy uses to crate electricity for your home.
I live in Mexico city and we have plenty of sun all year; besides, the climate is moderate all seasons so we really do not need a/c in summer or heaters in winter.
Could you give me more specific information about what are you doing?
If you want answer me trough personal message.

Thank you.

Regards,

Jose

Yogi,
It sounds like you're setup pretty well for efficiency. That's pretty cool.

On the solar cell thing, I was told that a typical solar cell costs more energy to manufacture than the energy that it will make in return over its life. Is that true?

That's odd. I used to work in an automotive electrical shop and the fumes from one battery would put of quite an odor. I can imagine if everyone on the block were charging a car load full every night. You might not smell it, but it would still be there polluting the environment. Plus, as I said, you can't get any distance with a battery charged car. What are you going to do on a cross state/ country trip? No charging stations as of yet and not in a long ways to come. And solar cells on your roof is great! But, let's see. My electric bills last year averaged out to about $70.00 per month. At a cost of at about twenty grand, it would take how many months to get my money back on the solar panel deal? And I find it odd that my neighbor across the street has solar landscaping lights to light up his yard at night and during the winter they are only on about 10% of the time. So, the theory is great, but it will be long after I'm gone before it goes anywhere. Until then, people are still going to be dreaming of the jellybean factory.

And by the way, (I heard on TV not too long ago), now that all the lead is going to China, who do you think will be making the majority of the batteries in the world before long? And where do all those tankers that bring them here get their power? Not from the jellybean factory. I believe they run on diesel fuel? You're right, Chuck, until the price comes way down, solar/battery powered cars and homes will remain a thing of the future for most of us. And I have yet to hear of anyone being more efficient than I am.

I don't "know" much about solar cells, battery cars,etc. I have worked around batteries when I was a service manager in a car dealership, but that was 20 years ago and battery technology has moved a couple of light years since then. The technology has been used on cell phones, lap tops, ipods, and games.

Car batteries are about the same along with the rest of the auto parts. From what I am driving, cars have not changed much in the last 21 years. The last big improvement in mileage came with fuel injection in the 80's, and that was 40 year old technology at the time. We really are stuck in a fossil fuel based economy, and don't have the collective will to do anything about it.

I "strongly believe" we, as a country, can and should be energy self sufficient. If you watch the History channel, between wind and solar panels in the dessert we can product all the electricity we need. "Dreamer", that's me, but if I am able to build a new house in a couple of years, as is my plan, it will probably include solar panels and will definitely have a wind generator. I will be connected to the grid, but maybe I can sell them some power when the wind is really blowing.

One other thing for all you woodburners- Go to yahoo and type in the words "woodburning smoke". (On our local news not long ago, people are being poisoned and getting skin rashes from their neighbors wood smoke.) You will see all the poison and pollutants you are putting into the atmosphere and inhaling from inside the house. I guess people think that wood comes from the jellybean factory, too.

I think all of us are missing the real point.
That is Conservation, conserving energy, conserving resources.
When was the last time you and your kids walked anywhere?
How much plastic do you use per week?
I am seriously considering going to work on my Horse, it will exercise her and me and save me wear and tear on the car as well as saving fuel.

Most people can't ditch their big gas pig SUVs - how about it gents! Still have yours I bet.
Btw, are the beds comfy at the jellybean factory Jimmy?

I think Salopian hit the nail. Yogi's point is about getting more efficient. How we do that has many aspects about our daily lives as Yogi pointed out. The specific ways of increasing efficiency will change as technology changes.

Me? I chose not having kids to conserve. I think I conserved more energy than any other methods that will come along. That's why I don't feel the need to 'conserve' and drive a little beercan of a car that'd loose a bout in the Tijuana Grand Prix destruction derby I deal with every day. I have no guilt about buying a new big truck this year. Yes, I'll probably buy a more efficient one than the last, but it'll be an economic decision.

While it may be off topic, the thing is I've had a bunch of people ask me what I did. So while I could start a new thread it seems many of the people who want to know more are on this thread, so, if it is okay, I'll post "what I did" here---

All I did was some research and bought the following:

Solar Panels with wires - $3,000 (from Discount Solar on the web, California based supplier)
Wood for solar panel frames - $50
Solar Regulator - $100 (from Discount Solar)
Inverter 5500 WATT (used) - $800 (It came with cables too!)
Batteries - $800 (from local battery outlet, known as 6 VOLT golf cart batteries, I put 4 in a pod for a 24 VOLT system, with 2 pods)

TOTAL - $4750 approximate

Back up generator - $500

The inverter converts the 24 VOLTS DC into regular 110 Volt house current. All of our house is wired just like any other house. Sure we use low energy bulbs. Anyone who does not is a tard.

So, for less than $5500 we have been off the grid and by doing so we saved (1) the $15,000 they would have charged to bring power to our new home. Three Years of electric bills, so far (at least $1800 or more). And, the satisfaction of self reliance---PRICELESS.

The other key of course is----conservation. We do not waste. We do not have “scardy cat lights” like most of neighbors who have huge lights on their barns or on posts in their yard because they are “a-scared-of-the-dark”… We also do not use a lot of wasteful appliances and kitchen gadgets. Yes, we have a food processor and blender and Kasia uses her hair dryer, but we use them smartly. We even have one of them-there-new-fangled washing machines!

We use about 2500 watts of electricity per day. Check your electric bill to see what you actually use on an average daily basis and then go on a conscious effort to conserve for a month or two and then see what you actually use on a daily basis. Adjust your off-the-grid, make-your-own-power system to what you actually use AFTER you consciously go on a regime to conserve. Most Americans use 9,000 to 10,000 watts a day! Anyone can slash their utility bill dramatically if they just use a little effort. They just have to try and stop wasting power. I walk into people’s houses who want me to help them and I say—why is that on? Why is that plugged in? Why is that on? And 99% of the time the people do not even realize they have all this stuff on but they have always done it so they just leave stuff plugged in or on even though they do NOT get any benefit from it. Crazy. But true.

We have been making our own power for about 3 years. Plus, when ice and wind storms come we have electric power when everyone else does not… what is that worth?

Yogi,
Good stuff. I saw a show not long ago about the subject and I realized that my house is full of stuff plugged in and even turned on for no reason. The TV satellite box is sitting there making electricity into heat when I don't have the TV on. No sense in that other than lazyness. Cellphone chargers and camera chargers plugged in draw current as well. I went to a tankless water heater a few yrs ago since there's just two of us and we both are gone all day. No sense heating water all day and night.

Yeah, those instant hot water heaters are terrific. That is what we put in when we built our place. We have a refrigerater that works off electricity OR gas with a flick of a switch, too. Pretty neat and efficient.

Indeed, Chuck, you are so right about the senseless waste of energy that is rampant in our society. So much waste it is astonishing. Criminal actually. I wish we had leadership in our country that actually highlighted the importance of 'conservation and waste reduction' in their conversation. Instead it is only about maximizing consumption & consumerism.

How hard is it to turn something off or not have it plugged in. Geeesh, you'd think electricity grew on trees... Jellybean trees, maybe, eh?

But you have to remember one thing. $3000.00 is probably the price for one panel and it takes several across a rooftop. (I recently saw on TV (This Old House)that they are down to $900.00 per panel.) So usually the price for this is in the $20-30,000 range for a home. Sometimes more. I am all for solar energy, more fuel efficient cars, etc. so don't get me wrong. But the first thing we are going to have to do is lower the population in the world. I believe the government should tax people for their offspring instead of giving rebates for dependent children. This should discourage over population and create a decrease in cars, fuel, pollution, etc. In my lifetime the world population has grown from 2 billion to 9 billion people. There's your problem. Another thing people are going to have to do is learn to live in a cooler home in the winter and a warmer home in the summer. People (usually women) see snow outside and turn the thermostat up to 75*. Yet in the summer people (usually women) need to have their home temperature at 65*. They need to turn that around and live in homes that are 55-60* in the winter and 75-80* in the summer. I do. I ran my window AC two days all last summer with a window fan in the bedroom the rest of the time. My upstairs (ground level) averaged about 50* from November to the present. I spend about 75% of the time in my family room in the basement (underground). It's cool in the summer and easier to warm (to about 65*) in the winter. My fuel bills from November to present have totaled less than $150.00 (total)in kerosene (plus about $90.00 a month in electric) for space heaters. My electric bills in the summer are around $60.00. About $30.00 per month of that is for a hot water heater so I plan to change that. People dress warmer and spend the day outside when it is 50-55*. So why can't they do that INSIDE their homes in the winter? So, there are several ways people can help. They just don't want to sacrifice. If they did, just think of all the more money they would have for guns!

Instant hot water heaters are nice, too. But I have only seen that they run on gas. We don't have that in this area. And I wouldn't want gas in my home anyway. Too dangerous. They usually run at about $1600.00 plus around $500.00+ for installation. My hot water heater costs about $400.00 per year, so it would take five years+ to get a return on my money. Plus the cost of repair (which is usually my luck) for one of those babies when it goes on the blink. Not practical for me until they make one that runs on electric.

"A return on your money" Jimmy, but what about our energy?
Gotta think outside your wallet!

Since we are way OT with this energy thing here is my take;

Solar; Not ready for effective use on a large scale basis

Biggest problems;
Ethenol-you do not put corn in your gas tank a total misuse of a food source.
Nat gas,should not be used for power plants as we do now big waste of our best recourse.Think uranium and coal (we are the "Opec" of coal)
First step;
Wind farms,we have the Saudi Arabia of wind in the texas SD ND channel,use this combined with uranium and clean coal for power plants.This will free up Nat gas for cars and make us much more independant of Opec.Of course this will not happen and thats why I am long drillers,gold,E+P's and Nat gas and know that gas at the pump @ $3.00 will be "the good old days" soon !

Yogi --
I'm in Oneonta, not all that far from you and Ithaca. Any chance you'd sanction a visit to see first hand how you've set things up? I don't mean to create an imposition or intrude on your privacy. If it can work and you can make it fit, I'd be much appreciative. E-mail me at millcreek@oecblue.com or call 607-433-2681. Thanks.
Will

Thinking outside my wallet isn't easy for someone who is retired and on a limited income or for a young person trying to keep their head above water. You need to read my post again, Lowell if you think I am not doing more than most to help the environment. (I said I do not have gas in my area for the water heaters.) In the winter I keep my house at about 50*. How hot do you keep yours? Are you running an AC all summer long to keep your house cool? I learned to adapt..... One correction to my post: The world population will top nine billion until the baby boomer generation (my generation) reaches their life expectency. Harsh results need harsh demands.

Jimmy W
Check out your local Home Depot or Lowes. Both carry electric on demand water heaters.

First things first Jimmy, if you drive a gas sucking pig - you'd need to live in a mud hut and eat fruits and berries to make up for that.

I couldn't agree with Chuck and Yogi more. But this country had a leader who really wanted to work on this reduced power idea. Poor ol' Jimmy Carter. You all saw what a lovely reception his gentle leadership in that area engendered.

You know what they say about leading a horse to water.

I fear that until the oil runs out, it is going to be a huge uphill battle to get la gente to drink from the pond of conservation and alternative resources.

Jake

I own three cars, Lowell. One sits in the garage and is driven about 100 miles a year. The other two sit in the driveway and get about 20 and 30 miles to the gallon. But seeing as though I usually only drive about 20-30 miles a week, total since I have been retired, I don't worry that much about gasoline. That's why I said in an earlier post that when I go to a gas station, all I give them is $20.00. That's all they get from me in about a month. $20.00.......... And thanks, shep. I will look into the electric water heaters. I didn't know they were out yet. I bought an 80 gallon electric water heater about five years ago, but it is very impractical now. Good luck, guys!

I pronounce you green, Jimmy!
We gotta get rid of them gas piggies first and foremost, things will fall into place soon after.

Agreed. Let's just hope they have something left to shoot at!

It doesn't matter how much gas they use if I don't drive them does it? Or is that as broad as it is wide?

What was the question to this post anyway? Oh well! It's time to crawl into bed, watch Agent Fox Mulder and Agent Dana Scully solve another X-File case before I fall off to sleep. And dream about my valuptuous side by sides. Good night and good shooting.