Post deleted by Joe

I thought there were just shooters, some better than others, Joe. What distinguishes the better is their character and willingness to help others. We may admire Masters for their prowess but "looking up" to them is deference if they lack other personal qualifications. Shooters deserving of our respect are easy to spot. I don't know why you should give a tinker's dam about the classification of Masters, qualified or otherwise. Regards, King

I agree with King. I don't shoot sporting clays, so maybe I should sit quietly, but I have to say that I am quicker to take advice from an older ,wiser man (who might have "lost a step")than from a younger hot shot. I don't wish to offend anyone, but I have never met a young wise man. If you wanted to learn how to be a good wide receiver, would you go to T.O.? I'd rather go to a retired wide receiver....or maybe even to an old coach who never played but was a good observer. Mike h

King, as usual, your style is master class and that can't be looked up in a list or found on a punch card..

I shoot sporting clays from time to time just to have fun! I see other shooters who are better than I am, and a few not so good. Makes no difference to me, we all are enjoying a game of shooting, and we all support our second amendment rights!

While I suppose I understand taking offense to someone claiming to be what they're not, it happens all the time in most everything. This seems pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things. Can't really see why anyone would care, let alone go to the trouble to research it. Sounds like Joe might have a particular personal ax to grind. JMHO.

Post deleted by Old Joe

Some of the very best shooters don't shoot registered anything. Not everyone feels the need for formal competition, many of us get a full measure of competition at work and use shooting as a stress valve.

My old pal Gary could pull his beat up 1100 out of his truck bed any old day and hit everything they could throw him while laughing, chewing tobacco, and telling stories. Master class? You bet.

This is just a game. My heros persue other endeavors, like riding rockets or serving in Iraq.

I guess I can understand Old Joe wanting to protect the Masters rating. If any one of us was striving to achieve a goal we considered lofty/worthy it would be irritating to learn others were simply claiming, rather than earning, the same goal. However I learned long ago there are no perfect humans so each must be evaluated on more than titles.

As an angler and avid fly fisherman, I know most of the top level competitors and I really get mad when someone on the list denies that they are a Master Baiter.

Hey, I have a t-shirt from Master Baiters in Mexico. Does that make me one?

As time goes on, who to look up to usually resolves itself, it's how one treats the lesser of skill or knowledge, helping them to become better that counts in my book. Some "experts" protect their "turf" very jealously because they perceive a threat to their status in what ever they do. Others get great satisfaction in teaching the finer points of the game to anyone they see as "learners" young or old ( Oscar G. for one, comes to mind). I prefer to do both show and learn, it makes me feel good. --- John Can.

Old Joe

Mark Hull 527755

Earned Master in 2003 have never been offered a reduction in class.

What is your question?

Old Joe,
I think you should give a vote of thanks to every Master Class shooter who has declined to be moved down at the end of the year. Why? First is the fact that to become a Master you have to dedicate the time and lots of money to travel to competitions ... and don't ever forget that you have to have a little skill to finally become a Master no matter how much you spend.
Second is that while the NSCA may downgrade one Master and not another, their hope is that the downgraded Master will spend MORE money all over again to get their rating back. Third, and this is very important for you to remember ... every Master that you have to shoot against is going to kick your ASS, take your money and keep you from getting the punches you need to attain your goal. I have no respect for any Master who accepts the demotion. If you're good enough to get there, you should stay there and not take the lower class money. Fourth, if making Master is really your goal you're not shooting for the right reasons anyway. It's the trip that counts, not the destination, you need to shoot against the course not another shooter. Fifth, if you're good enough to finally get to Master Class you'll discover its meaningless. You're still shooting the same targets in the air as the D Class shooter, but you have nothing left to prove except your own skill against the course, just like the D Class shooter.
The best system has always been FITASC that uses the OPEN system and you just see how you stack up against the field. Of course that wouldn't make any extra bucks for Hampton & DuPont at the NSCA would it...so they'll get suckers like you to believe that classification is everything, when the truth is the only thing that counts is showing enough character to have class. So what if only 4% of us make it to Master Class? It used to be an invitational only classification for the pros, but there was no money in it for the pros or for the NSCA.
Frankly, if you think getting to Master is going to change your life, I feel sorry for you. Take up fishing instead and be happy.

Old Joe
I have shot with a lot of Master class shooters around the country and the majority shoot really well, but when you look at some of the lower scores in master class they would be better off taking a reduction. I know they have spent a lot of money to get there but it must be an ego thing.I have shot clays since 68 at club level and enjoyed every bit of it but am now financially able to shoot NSCA tournaments so joined four years ago and enjoy the competition tremendously.I am an A class shooter and will probably never make it to master but am giving it my best shot.
Pedler NSCA 551790

Hey Joe, what is your problem????? I shoot with master shooters all the time. Their rating, for the most part, means very little to them. They enjoy the sport and the company. They win very little money compared to the amount of shooting they do. They always seem to be there to help less able shooters, like me. If a guy lies about being a master class shooter, it will show very quickly on the range. Frank

I used to work with a moron who wore a navy seal hat and all he talked about was how bad ass he was. I finally realized he was full of it when he told a story about shooting 50 gal drums off the deck of a carrier with an M60 and how bad ass those 50 cal slugs were. another time he was bragging he said his M16 was 7.62 cal. I finally met his brother who told me Mark had been a cargo handler in the navy who got DD for drug use. my point I guess is some people just have to be something they're not. I have met a few special forces guys and they never talked a lick about how bad ass they were.

If you can get that cranked up over nothing then obviously the "competition" is ruining something for you that's supposed to be fun. Get a life.

Good grief!! Can we please let this thing die!!! Joe, if bragging rights mean that much to you, spend your money, get your Master Blaster or whatever - and then attack the INDIVIDUALS that you say are liars and cheats, etc. Compete with yourself and the course, as one other poster mentioned. Enjoy the gun sports. For petes sake, don't destroy them (or let them destroy you) with competition and titles like those two have destroyed IPSIC and are beginning to destroy CAS. Enjoy your guns - before Hillary/Barack take them away - or McCain bargains them away behind your back.

I got a T-Shirt from Stroud's when I was working in KC with their well deserved motto across the front;
"WE CHOKE OUR OWN CHICKENS"

Some of the best fried chicken I ever had!

Good friend has a provision route in NYC.At the 43rd street market,where all the provison companies buy, is a business that has a few trucks with the the motto
"You can't beat our meat" painted on them.

Wait a minute, this guy says he wants our numbers so he can look us up. I haven't seen his number yet. How about it, Old Joe? NSSA/NSCA Life, 88831/502975, pretty much retired. I showed you mine, now you show me yours. Yes, I was writing the big check before the invention of dirt.

Old Joe,

A guy gets into M-class by winning AA class with at least 5 AA shooters at an NSCA event at least 16 times in 2 years time, pretty tough to do anymore. If a guy accomplishes that I think he should be proud of himself, I don't think many expect YOU to be proud of them though. As uncomfortable as I am giving unsolicited shooting advice, I will offer you the best pearl I received: If you're worried about anybody elses scores, you're done.
As you shoot more registered sporting clays you will experience bad days,if you haven't already. You'll find that M-Class guys have them too,bad months, and bad years. New guns,new jobs, new hips,new glasses, new medicines, new techniques, new wives, all things that could easily keep a guy from getting a punch in a year. That aside, many of the guys you see scoring at the bottom of Master Class would punch out of AA in a matter of months if they downgraded. There are even guys who, if they drop 10 birds and know they're out of it, make sure they drop another 15 or so to try and get a good "Lewis" number. Shocking, I know!

Some days I'm just as likely to shoot a 72 as a 92 but I'm not a real Master class shooter, We just call ourselves "local" Masters. It doesn't mean that on a good day one of us can't, wont, or haven't, beaten the best of them, just that day-in, day-out the big dogs win. We aren't that bad, they are just that GOOD!

It's not climbing Mt. Everest assuredly, most guys could do it given the time, money and inclination. There are guys in ALL of the NSCA classes that don't accept downgrades every year, a few possibly for ego issues, the vast majority because they don't think it would be fair to the class below them. I do registration at our club monthly events and a last week a 77 year old man told me to leave him in C class becuse all his buddies were in C class. I'd feel pretty crappy telling him no-go, wouldn't you?

ps. You'll also learn,there is definately more of a problem with people avoiding class UPgrades than downgrades. That is the situation that is unfair to the up-and-comers. Go to a big Blast event and check out the D-class winner with a pair of 91s for the weekend. Then check out his records,I guarantee then you'll have something to rant about.

pps,I got 14 punches last year so don't investigate me, please.

8 bore's right show us yours Joe! 535433

Post deleted by Old Joe

We just want to monitor your progress, OldJoe. You know, make sure you're paying attention and all! Give it up!

I guess it's a matter of "class" I knew a lot of my father's generation who served with the British Army during WWII who were Marine Commandos, Special Ops, SOE, etc who would never talk about what they did, and an Air Force uncle of mine who had to go to Buckingham Palace to be awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross from King George VI himself, and would not even tell my dad where he was going, he was embarrased by the whole thing.
When he got back he did say to my dad who wondered where he went, he said "up to Buck House for a gong I did not deserve"
Well, he sank a heavily armed Italian MTB off Malta (which was about to torpedo a Brit merchant vessel loaded with tanks and fuel),in a Spitfire, with gunfire, dived down and had just about had his plane shredded about him, spent a while in a raft.....never would talk about it because the fuss embarrassed him. Pretty classy guy.
I spent many years as an Olympic class Field referee, did many World Cups, two Olympics, USA Shooting Shotgun spring and fall matches man those guys and girls at the top are so classy.
Never bother a ref, too focussed on their game. Brett Erickson, step up and take a bow, Kim Rhode, Connie Schiller, Terry DeWitt, Lance Bade, Josh Lakatos, Shaun Dulohery, Todd (Fuzz)Graves, Dom Grazioli, Cindy Gentry, Shari Legate, Joetta Novinsky, Cindy Shenberger, thanks for being so classy and making our referee's job so easy in the hot sun.
I did go slumming once, when we had the NSSA Skeet Championships in Winnipeg, Canada, my home town. I got pressed into helping out as a referee. I used to shoot that geezer game before I went into International skeet.
I had no fun at that NSSA shoot because of the begging for targets, I could not believe it. "Ref that bird, (station 7) was way outside and it was broken as well!"
Then why did you shoot at it instead of lowering your gun and putting you hand up? I said. Then one of his squad got pretty loud and horrible and accused me of being blind and stupid, and some worse things, so I handed him the button and told him if he was so .....clever he could referee and I left the field and went home.
So it's a matter of class, I like classy people, they are nice to be around
hoo

You really need to get a life... and a spell checker.

I was thinking the EXACT same thing...
Best,
Ted

Mike B., I've done both and enjoyed both and the shooters in "Bench Rest Skeet" are not as bad as you make them out to be, just not quite in a league with the I-Skeet competitors. I have refereed NSSA for years and have not experienced begged targets.

Mike, interesting experiences. Here in Iowa, we're wondering whether our up and coming shooting star Haley Dunn will get the Olympic skeet slot over Kim Rhode. It's a shame we can only send one.

eightbore, I apologise to you and the 99% of NSSA shooters who are salt of the earth. I took one bad experience, I guess and let it colour my judgement. I suppose what I was trying to say, not very well, was that the top shooters in NSSA, as well as the top shooters in International Skeet and Trap are class acts and do not run around telling people how bloody marvellous they are, they do not have to. We know.
Larry, yes,well Haley came on the scene after I quit refereeing at the top level due to vision difficulties, but I do follow the progress of the USA Shooting guys and girls even today. I have refereed Kim Rhode since she was sixteen, she is a super shooter, and like you, I think it is a shame USA Shooting can't send both to China. I think the high spot of my career as an Olympic judge over the years was getting to know Lloyd Woodhouse, the USA Olympic shotgun coach. If there is a classier guy around, I have yet to meet him
Mike

My God, it's a game, and it's for fun! Bayond that, who can possibly care, or why? Sheesh.

I can see where you are coming from, Joe, but I wouldn't take it so seriously. If you guys shoot trap, you see so many guys who have been shooting for 40 years and they are still up on the closest handicap. I have been shooting for 6-7 years and have a 2-3 yard handicap over them. They go out and shoot registered targets and intentionally miss targets so they can shoot short yardage in the tournaments. It is like someone who cheats at golf, or anything else. Don't you want to know how good you honestly are? Like I always said, anytime there is money involved........ But I don't worry that much about what someone else does. The guys who have the longest handicap are the best shooters. You know who the good ones and the bad ones are.

Oh!! And as far as so many people claiming to be SEALS. I believe they now have a website giving their names to weed out the impostures.