I am looking at an E.Arizaga from placencia SxS in 20g with ejectors, hand removed sidelocks and two brls in a leather case. Each brl is marked with a gold one or two and the gun has a gold crest on the lever. The gun has excellent wood and looks to be a very high quality gun in very good condition. Of course, I cannot find anything on the web about the gun. Any help in pointing me in the right direction? It appears of higher quality than AYA #2s I have seen but I know the company went out of business. It has original brl blue and a blued action (not case colors) and has exceptional full cover deep releif scroll. The gun also comes with original wax paper proofing documents stamped 1963 for each brl. Included is a copy of the advetisement placing the original cost of the gun at about $500 (I assume from 1960s). It does have a rather stiff action and trigger pull and appears to be a blued action rather than case colored - I have not confirmed, but seller suggests that that was the original as per the advertisement. The seller does seem like an honest person so I have no reason to doubt. Any information on this gun would be greatly appreciated!
Any help in value too would be great. The person is willing to take $2800 in cash which seems low for the quality but a little high for the name from what I can see on the web.
This gun should be a very fine one. The company only built custom ordered guns of best to very best quality.
I would suggest that to buy a like gun today would cost near five times the asking for the one you may buy.
Hope this helps.
Best,
John
Jack OcOnnor has a bit to say about Arizaga guns in "The Shotgun Book". He said he had a 20 gauge that he liked very much but its single trigger doubled "all the time". He also said that at some later time they were making only cheaper guns for the American market and were not so good.(at that time). If you are able to tell a well made gun by looking at it(no offense intended but some of us can and many others haven't a clue) and if it fits you well, $2800 is not very much money for a 2 barrel sidelock set these days. You could pay that much for a Benelli Super-Something-or-other, automatic. I'd feel better about it if it has two triggers. If not, ask to be allowed to shoot a couple rounds of skeet with it, to see if the single trigger works OK. I would also be slightly skeptical about the action and locks being original blue, but I could easily be wrong about that. Seems like most sidelocks are CC'd.
Hi all, I was also going to buy an E. Arazaga (didn't, long story about the seller) anyway, I did some research on this maker. Yes indeed they were a top shelf maker prior to them joining DIARM. From what I found they were a smaller maker, but were basically hand made custom/semi-custom guns.
All of the examples I've seen were CC frames. I have never seen one with a blued frame, it's possible, but to be honest I doubt it.
As far as single triggers go, Jack O'Connor had nothing but problems with his two custom made E.A. In fact he had the triggers replaced by the Miller Trigger Co. This is not to say that this trigger will have any problems (I have 4 spanish guns with SST and have had no problems with them, but these guns are of recent manufracture). I would really check the trigger close, as Jim said fire a couple rounds of clays to see what happens.
I myself would really look this gun over close, but in the end if you want it and it makes you smile - go for it.
Best of luck!!
Greg
Yes, it is a double trigger model. I have a 20g RBL with single trigger and really wish I had the double trigger model (anyone out there want to swap?).
He is going to let a gunmaker look it over. as for skeet, that may be a little more difficult. The gun clearly looks like a really nice one and very high quality. Ejectors seem to work fine and it has cocking indicators like an AYA. It is really stiff to open and close but it also has been sitting for some time - I will make sure the gunmaker looks at that.
I have seen newer guns with blued actions, but agree it does seem odd for the older ones.
With two triggers you obviously don't have to worry about single trigger problems. If you could remove one of the locks, you could see if they show CC on the inside. If so, it's surely been blued. Also, look for the engraving and printing to show indications of being buffed, another sure sign of a poor re-bluing job. Can you take pictures of it and post them here?
I will try to get the gun next weekend. As I remember it, all the markings on the action and proof marks are really crisp. I will likely buy it as long as the gunsmith checks out okay.
Good Luck to you, it does sound nice for that price - let us know how things turn out. I'm sure fine.
BTW, welcome to the forum lots of great info and folks here.
All the best!!!!!
Greg
Thanks everyone for all the help and history. I will let you know how it turns out. If any of you know more or have pictures of other examples, please let me know.
I remember looking at these Arizaga's in the early sixties. I believe you could get the action in Case color, blue or bright/silver! Jack O'Connor had me all stirred up to order one. Just never got around to it!!
Brentflyfish:
We have thousands of members and a few hundred regular posters.
Many men come aboard to find one answer and we never have the opportunity to chat and fellowship past the answers to that question.
I sincerely trust that you have come to the porch, taken a rocker and plan to stay and tell a few tales that we smile at, as we all know that you know that we know they are what they are.:}
Sit a spell. You can well be one of those few hundred.
Best,
John
Thanks John,
I am new to the gun forums though not new to hunting. I spend most of my time on flyfishing and vintage watch pages. I grew up in Maine, not too far from your neck of the woods, and have had an insatiable hunger for grouse. Those little buggars seem to elude me no matter what I do. I will be happy to grap a chair and reach into the pickle jar......
I thought you'd like it here. See now why I recommended you post your question here?
'Lonzo
Be sure to get a good evaluation from the gunsmith on the trigger pulls. Shouldn't be a huge issue. Trigger tuning isn't cheap, but if you get a good report on it otherwise, at that price you can afford to spend a couple hundred $ if necessary for trigger work. As others have said, if it were a ST gun, I'd be more concerned.
Brentff, After you get that sweet swingin Spaniard save some birds for us will ya???
All the best
Hello Brentff and welcome,
I'd get it. It will surely prove to be tight for lack of use.
I tried to get some info by googling Spanish sites and there were
several for sale. One was was announced as "black" but unfortunately
no photos, so it could well have been cc'd and misrepresented.
JC
The Arizaga is not a best gun by any stretch, and, unfortunately, in my opinion, every poster has confused this gun with an Arizabalaga, which is a best gun. The price is not a bargain in my opinion. The posters are acting in good faith but have incorrect information. If I am crucified for saying this, I will delete my post and not post on this thread again. Good luck with your prospective new purchase if you choose to buy it. Yes, I am familiar with the maker, have inspected his guns, sold one or two for what they were worth, and have experienced the concept of the two brands being confused by collectors of some experience. Hey, this is Spanish and we speak English. Did you hear about the Polish guy who went for an eye exam and the tech asked him if his could read the third line from the top. He replied, "Read the line, heck, I know that family, they lived across the street from us." Same situation, Arizaga, Arizabalaga, sounds the same to someone from Topeka, but the price of the guns is about $15,000 apart.
Wow. That is provocative. Eightbore, could you elaborate? Was the Arizaga the gun O'Connor discussed or was that the Arizabalaga you mentioned? Jake
Sorry, Jake, I edited my post to make it and me appear more friendly. However, to answer your question, Arizaga is the gun that O'Connor wrote about. However, he never said it was worth more than the $200 he probably paid for it. I offered a neat little Arizaga 28 gauge cased two barrel set for sale in a shop where I worked. It was a consignment gun and I had to wake up several customers who rushed to write a check for $2750 for the minty gun having mistaken it for the A gun that Terry Weiland described as the best gun since Boss started production. It wasn't that I was being unfair to my consignor, I just wanted the buyer to be informed. It was a horrid example of a bird gun, only visually acceptable at twenty feet or more and not a pleasant gun to inspect closely. The wood looked like Heywood-Wakefield furniture and the engraving made late A Grade Fox guns look like Kornbrath work in comparison.
I sat here and read all this and thought exactly the same thing eightbore has posted above, even started to post my thoughts and decided to wait. I even read again the comments O'Conner wrote. I think eightbore has nailed this!! All the Arizaga guns I have handled, and there have been several, were decent little guns, but a loooong way from being a Spanish Best. The similarity in the two names MUST be confusing you guys, the two quality levels are North and South poles apart.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653This one doesn't look too bad. But I looked at one (Arizzabalaga)
that was down right scary. Not all were "best".
Ken, your experience matches mine. Point one, the Arizaga is never a best gun or even acceptable. Point two, (Ken's point) not all Arizabalaga guns are Best Guns, regardless of the advertising and hype to the contrary.
Hey all, very good discussion here, to be honest I have not held an E. Arazaga, just did some research on them. I have handled a few Gasper Arazga's and find some of them lacking in the quality department, but not all were a terrible piece of junk. From what I learned about E. Arazaga they were a good maker.
As we all know, spanish guns run from terrible to great. Even top makers do put out clinkers. The great english gunmaker W.W. Greener made some bad guns - he is even quoted as saying of one of his export guns "I will only guarantee that it will fire once."
The spanish have had a reputation for bad guns in the past (as the Turks do now), and I think that this reputation will influence some people for years to come. The spanish guns I have, have given excellent service with zero problems. I always get a chuckle out of how some folks extoll the virtues of a Stoger Uplander as if it were a Purdey best gun, yet these same folks turn up their nose if you mention Zabala or any other spanish maker and declare them junk.
For me I like spanish guns and will continue to use and buy them. This is just my opinion, take it or leave it - to each his own.
As I said good discussion.
Take care!
Greg
I did not confuse the two names. I admit that I have no experience with either maker's guns but have read about them.
Aragaza commenced business in the early 1900s. I cannot think that any maker would have made it as long as he did if he built junk.
It is my understanding that he was a bespoke maker.
Could it be that the bad ones were produced by his successor at DIARM?
Best,
John
"I cannot think that any maker would have made it as long as he did if he built junk". Quote from John Mann.
I agree 100%!!
All the best!
Greg
I don't see that anyone said they were "junk." You all must remember that such major Spanish names as AyA and Victor Sarasqueta also made some VERY low end guns. They were heavy, call them sturdy if you will, and put together quickly for a price market, but they worked (if they had two triggers) and they held up for a long time. You see them around still for sale today in the $300 to $600 range, depending on condition. I would say the E. Arizaga guns were a cut above the Gaspar Arizaga guns, and a cut above the very low end AyA and VS guns, not junk, just a long way from being Best. No doubt a sidelock version of the E. Arizaga line would be better than their really low end boxlocks, but not currently in the $2,800 range, IMO.
Hi Chief, your right, no here called them junk, that was just a general statement how some people (none on this discussion) have called spanish guns in general. I don't have to tell you about how some folks feel about spanish guns - you know.
Sorry for any confusion!!
All the best!
Greg
There is a book of European makers, rendered in English, which was remaindered off in this country. It has a good many citations of makers never rendered to print on this BBS. I sold my copy in one of my periodic purges of goods. However, I can prolly locate the present owner.
In that volume an "Arizaga" -- not mistaking the name for the rolling Basque lisps of pronouncing Arrizabalaga, was cited as a very high maker of bespoke custom shotguns. I'll see if I can locate the citation for further edification of the assembled, but no promise on that.
I do not know if that Arizaga is either one of the two currently under discussion. I do know that I have handled some fairly low-end, crude-ish, apprentice level Arizagas, hence that book's information surprised me back then. I do remember a Sarasqueta boxlock or two that in no way resembled even the mid-line Stoeger grade six sidelocks, as an illustration of possible quality disparities within a maker. At the time I did not really comprehend the difference in initials that signified a totally different maker, and so did not remember the initials.
The old Ohio Gun Collectors shows had a plenitude of little known Spaniards on the tables, prior to the knowledge boom of the past decade. Would that the eyes of current knowledge could survey those rows, now. While we may believe that we know 'bout iv'rytink, komraden, it should not be a surprise if the European gunmaking community holds surprises as yet unknown.
As for 'buy or not buy', it's possible that a detailed set of very clear closeups and general photos would be useful to someone pontificating from behind a keyboard, but in general there's no way i could comment without handling the gun, and doing some discrete internal peeking. ;~`)
I would trust that you find a happy relationship with SxS that flutters y'r heart, and I'd personally have few qualms about a Basque gal from a proper family.
The is no such thing as a Best Gun from Spain. Arizabalagas are guns that are built to a high standard indeed to resemble Best Guns. They are fine guns only, and I would be proud to own one but I would not delude myself.
I will clarify my statement about at least one Arizaga that I mentioned earlier. The gun was priced at $2750, way too high for the particular gun probably five or six years ago. As a 28 gauge 2 barrel set of very basic quality and finish, it would have been a fair deal for both buyer and seller at $1200. I did not warn the buyer about the gun, I warned him about the price.
This from the index of Spanish Best, 1st edition:
Arizaga, Carmelo
Arizaga, Eusebio
Arizaga, Gaspar
Arizaga, Jose
Arrizabalaga, Juan Zubiaurre
Arrizabalaga, Julian
Arrizabalaga, Pedro
Arrizabalaga, Tomas
Sarasqueta, Adolfo
Sarasqueta, Felix
Sarasqueta, Maria Victoria
Sarasqueta, Victor
Sarasqueta, Victor II
Sarasqueta, Victor III
These as examples to show it can get confusing and it does not pay to generalize.
Mr. Wieland (page 55 of ref. edition) referring to the situation in 1960 also writes:
"Occasionally, wealthy Americans (or connoisseurs with more taste than money)
would travel to Madrid and up to Eibar and order an AyA or Victor Sarasqueta,
or even one of the lesser known names such as Eusebio Arizaga, Francisco
Sarriugarte, Martin Ugarteburu, or Pedro Arrizabalaga."
You can deduct that EUSEBIO Arizaga was considered among the best.
He may have turned out lower than par guns, but this I do not know.
As recommended, the inspection by the gunsmith should be clarifying.
JC
P.S.: To avoid another "bee" issue, the name is Arizaga and NOT Arazaga. jc
Wow, lot of new comments. I will likely buy the gun at $2700 if it checks out with the gunsmith. The wood, hand detatchable sidelocks, and egraving are all very high quality from what i can tell. Similar, if not better, to AYA number 2s and 1s that I have seen with upgraded wood. It is not a low end boxlock with sideplates.
Thanks for all your info - I will make sure to post some pics when I get the gun
Good Decision, I doubt that you will regret it......ENJOY
yeah, as long as it is mechanically sound, I cannot see why a 20g gun with the quality engraving, excellent fit and finish, proof papers, extra brls, high grade wood and leather case is not worth the price.
JayCee, that's an interesting list in the statement from Terry Weiland. Everyone knows the name of AyA and Victor Sarasqueta, and most know Pedro Arrizabalaga. There's no doubt these names could and did turn out high end guns. The other names are less known. Martin Ugarteburu was indeed a maker of high end custom guns. I believe he went on to become an officer of the ill fated Diarm group, and did not survive their quick collapse. The only remaining name, other than the one under discussion, would be that of Francisco Sarriugarte. I have owned guns made by him as well, before he became the President of Diarm as I remember. They were not at all what I would call a high end gun. A couple were side by side guns, and perhaps three were O/U designs, very thick and stout and heavy guns, not at all a sleek trim high end gun. Maybe he made better, but I have not seen them. He went on to found Kemen after Diarm. You know what Kemen is noted for, stout, heavy target guns, similar to the O/U designs he previously turned out. I am not certain I would take from that listing of names "You can deduct that EUSEBIO Arizaga was considered among the best." I would want a bit more evidence than a mention within a list of other makers who turned out high end guns. I still am in the camp of the uncertain. When the gun in question is acquired, I would like to see some nice close-up photos. I also do not agree at all with the above statement that There is no such thing as a Best gun from Spain.
"The Arizaga is not a best gun by any stretch, and, unfortunately, in my opinion, every poster has confused this gun with an Arizabalaga, which is a best gun."
Well, you're wrong in my case. I can read quite well and I can tell the difference between Arizaga and Arizabalaga.
Based on the writings of "Jack" my buddy and I imported five 20-gauge 26-inch barrel straight gripped guns, sold three, and each kept one in 1967. They were good looking H&H hand detachable sidelocks and had good well regulated barrels. But, they had terrible internal parts that crystalized and broke. After replacing the right tumbler the second time mine flowed down the river of commerce, and my buddy didn't keep his that long.
I would not touch obscure good looking Spanish stuff with a pole vault stick! French and German always Italian or Belgian maybe Spanish never. Reeeejected!
Researcher, am I correct in recalling that the Arizaga guns that O'Connor and you owned were made by Eusebio Arizaga?
Hi Chief,
I suppose you are right. Each gun has to be considered individually.
The list is an indication, not gospel.
I had a 1949 vintage Victor Sarasqueta that was externally very nice
but the innards left something to be desired. Gone by now.
The gunsmith will tell.
JC
No, Belgian guns have to be examined on individual basis. Obscure Spanish stuff belongs is a dumpster. I have examined 2nd-hand 871 in excellent condition. The gap between iron and wood was large enough to see part of the ej kicker and two halfs of ejector rod were of unequal size, so if one breaks both would need replacing.
Most of that good looking obscure old stuff was assembled and finished by hand so parts would have to be made to order. Why pay for parts and labor in excess of what the gun is worth in the first place. That route seems appropriate for stupid people only.
PS. The chance that Eusebios piece will be a dissapointment are better than average.
researcher - Did you have an E. Arizaga? Was it hand detatchable sidelocks and ejectors as well?
Jagermeister - Did you have a bad experience with a Spanish gun that resulted in your dislike?
well, there is no shortage of opinions on this topic. I thank all of you for your feedback. I will wait for the gunsmith's report on the gun and go from there. I have a hard time believing that the maker would have spent so much time on the quality of the wood, engraving and fit only to put such poor workmanship into the action. However, I have not seen inside the gun so I will wait to hear. I will, however, keep my fingers crossed that the gun is solid as it is a very handsome one for sure. I have been looking for an AYA#2 but have found none that were in good shape with quality wood.
Brent, although I don't have a crystal ball I think your logic is very sound.
Why go to all the trouble of choosing wood, working on the wood to metal
fit, engraving, even having a nice case made for it to pair all up with bad
innards? Does not sound sound to me. I think you shall not be disappointed.
JC
I am sure it's a beauty. Pray and keep your fingers crossed it's doen't fail you on a hunt. Best
Herederos Del Marques de Riscal drinker.
The guns we imported were Eusebio Arizaga, the same brand Jack O'Connor wrote about. They were H&H pattern hand detachable sidelocks. I don't recall if they were extractor or ejector. I still have my letter from Jack after I wrote him about our experience. He had to replace his Spanish single trigger with a Miller. They certainly left me with a bad taste in my mouth for any Spanish guns, and haven't owned one since and have no desire to.
Yep, why take a chance when you can buy something that you know will work?
I mean why bother with S&W auto pistol when there is Heckler & Koch. If H&K made cylinder gun I would go with S&W!
Brent,
I agree your on the right track in examining the gun. I hope the gun is better than expected! Heck, a few months ago there was a dogpile on Turkish guns. Now we have a whole new faction of Hugludites extolling there virtues!
Nope, I didn't confuse Arizaga with Arizabalaga.
O'Connor talks about buying his first Arizaga, and says "In 1963 the gun sold for about $160 in Spain." Well, according to my "Buxton's Guide"--from 1963--an AyA Model 53, a pretty darned good sidelock, sold for $177 in Spain. So I'm guessing, like most of the Spanish makers back in the 60's, Arizaga made very basic guns and also some pretty darned high grade guns. Just like AyA did.
Almost everyone with much experience today will caution that Spanish single triggers are best avoided, whether on a gun made in 1963 or 2003. (And note that on the Spanish guns currently imported, ST's are rarely seen!) But an Arizaga two barrel set might well be worth mid-$2K range. Depends on grade, condition, etc. And it's nice to see it doesn't have a single trigger!
Maaan, pretty soon that's the only fine gun with hand engraving I'm going to be able to afford. Let's not knock our hard times wonder!
Gee, I wanted that plated 12br CZ Ringneck? with long barrels/cts as my luvly fower, but that mint Ithaca 51 was only $400 and hobos can't be choosers. I just didn't have enough $ to buy that fine SxS.
So here is the latest. The gunsmith was not able to get to it this week but the seller is willing to 1) let me buy it and shoot it this weekend and 2) still have a gunsmith look it over with the option to return if it malfunctions or the gunsmith sees issues. I think I am going to go ahead and get it and will post pictures for all of you to look at.
"Arizaga, Arizabalaga, sounds the same to someone from Topeka..."
My goodness. Raining in the desert so I thought I'd check some previously ignored threads. We mentally deficients of the 'fly-over' Great American Desert are so appreciative when our betters deem us worthy to be educated. How DID Eisenhower manage to win WWII anyway? And the Menningers move Psychiatry from 'The Snake Pit' to science? (possibly Karl 'got smart' only when teaching at Harvard.) If anyone is interested, here are a few more 'meaningful' Kansans
http://ks.nea.org/readacross/RAA06-famouskansans.html Sorry to highjack your thread Brent, but the randomly dropped insults sure get old.
No worries - This is my first post on this page and it has been rather interesting to see what my simple question has drummed up. All-in-all, I am rather happy to have joined the group. I am no stranger to the quick quips though - seems vintage watch collectors are of the same ilk.
HI Brent, well if the seller is willing to let you fire it and inspect it. I think you'll do just GREAT!! Go for it. Glad you like the forum. I sure do, you always learn something on it.
Lets hear from you soon!!!
Good Luck and God Bless!
Greg
Buffalo Bill Cody, 1846-1917
Born in Scott County, Iowa, in 1846, Cody grew up on the prairie. When his father died in 1857, his mother moved to Kansas, where Cody worked for a wagon-freight company as a mounted messenger and wrangler.
I guess you don't have to be born in Kansas to be a Kansan.
Let's not be too hasty with our criticisms of the posters on this thread. Even the most abraisive and impolite of them contributed to what our friend Brentflyfish wanted to know about his gun. Even if their tone was unacceptable to some of us, the intent was to help him out...I think.
for the record - that is how I took it.
Drew, I think it's pretty safe to say that Kansas is the only state in the union that can claim 3 world record holders in the mile/1500 meters. All native Kansans, all ran for KU: Glenn Cunningham, Wes Santee, Jim Ryun.
Sorry , wrong thread I thought it said "From Placenta" Regards
Well - seems the seller has dropped off the face of the earth. Real bummer, but maybe for the best.
I have a 28ga Arizaga.
100% engraved, blued frame, 25" Churchill style barrels/rib, ejectors, articulated front trigger, full sidelock with H&H detachable locks, straight stock with nice, but straight, figure, etc.
Don't know if it would be described as a "best" gun, but it's not one as eigthbore described (nothing personal).
I don't have any pics, but I can probably get some up in the next few days. In the meantime, just to be sure it works, I'll see if I can post a pic of something you've probably never seen....a grade 5 Ithaca Lewis.
Funny - I just sold a grade 5E Ithaca NID about two weeks ago! Great gun!
Lidub, I described the Arizaga I was selling as having wood that was similar in appearance to Heywood-Wakefield furniture, which it did truly resemble. I further described the engraving as cruder than that of a late A Grade Fox, which it was. I also implied that the gun was overpriced at $2750, which it also was. I still thought it was a neat little gun and a good buy at $1250, which it would have been. I kind of liked it. My advice to Mr. Brentlyfish was and is "Don't overpay."
Brent, do keep us informed if it surfaces again. I still have a good feeling about it.
JC
Without having seen the gun, I believe Bill has given you a pearl of wisdom and experience on pricing.
jack
still cant get in touch with the seller - looks like the deal is over. Bummer as I really like the gun - I just hope nothing happened to the guy.
Well - the door has closed. The seller proved to be a true flake after we agreed on a price and the fact that he would allow me to have a gunsmith look over the gun he decides to no longer return calls or e-mails. That tells me one of two thing - he sold the gun to someone else or there are obvious problems he would rather pass off to another buyer. Fair enough I guess. Just in case you are go to gunshows in the south east - be weary.
Hey Brent, as you said he either sold it or something is wrong. To bad, I feel for you - its happened to me a few times - but sonething better always comes along down the line.
Keep us posted, BTW your post really provided alot of good discussion, well worth it to me - Thanks!
All the best!!
Greg
Thanks Greg - He actually called me today and confirmed he sold it to his gunsmith after agreeing to sell it to me. Integrity apparently has a price - $2800.
Many times I have had better offers or more interesting trade offers on my vintage watches after verbally agreeing to a deal - not once have I backed out.