Found a CSMC Fox today at a pretty good price. Only problem is the former owner had his initials in gold on trigger guard. I called CSMC to ask about having another trigger guard made and really got a put off responce. My question can the initials be removed and if so what then would I need to do? Re-engrave the trigger guard? Who would be best to do this?
The gun really is nice and priced right, I guess I could always change my name.

PALUNC, I would suggest that you call back and talk with Louie about your problem with the triggerguard and while you're at it, tell him how you were treated the last time you called. Unfortunately, the bigger a business becomes, who you speak with can make all the difference.

Dean

I would think that you could have the initials changed at any time. As said, ask for Lou, but they are very busy and don't always have time to deal with questions not related to selling their new guns. I have one of their Fox's and they are sweet. You may not need to change the trigger guard, but could have it redone? Let us know how you male out.
What model is it?

I'm looking for a Fox trigger guard with initials. What are the initials?

contact Ken Hurst a member of this bbs. changing the guard would be a lot of trouble and Ken could change initals for you. Bobby

Second that, Ken could fix you up faster and cheaper!
Ken Hurst-252-795-6670

Craig

Kevin, I did talk to Lou. He said I could possilbly have it altered but was not open to them making me another guard. The initials ar LCL. The gun is a grade CE. Beautiful engraving. Has many upgrades, skeleton butt plate, beavertail and a very nice piece of lumber.
Lou did try to give me a name of a guy who could possibley remoave the gold initials and then re-engrave. My question is how are they installed and how deep is the damage to cover with new engraving?

Another example of excellent friendly service.

Buy the gun, forget about changing the initials.
The initials are part of the provenence and a gun can be ordered with your intials if the gun is bespoke.
Since it is not bespoke and eventually somebody else is going to have the gun, it really doesn't matter.
I have a Win Model 21 from the Custom Shop with initials in the gold oval in the stock. They are not my initials and are listed in the Win records for the gun. Doesn't bother me a bit.
Have fun with your Fox!-Dick

I'd be inclined to do what Dick recommends. But if you just can't live with the initials on the gun, Ken Hurst would be my first call.

CSM is a rapidly growing company and second-hand gun-work is a very low priority to them. Their new gun sales and associated repair being top priority these days. If you were an original purchaser and your gun needed repair, you'd be less than sympathetic about a second-hand gun purchaser wanting a modification while you waited behind him. CSM is in up to its eyes in work with the new models of RBLs and their custom bespoke line. They know they can't do everything for everyone so they have to prioritize.

I never change the initials engraved on a quality gun. As Dick says, it's part of the provenance.

If CSMC can't be bothered because they're more interested in new gun sales than "second-hand-gun-work" WHEN THE GUN IN QUESTION IS ONE THEIR OWN EXPENSIVE GUNS and not just another brand, then shame on them.
All guns of quality change hands and in this case the gun has Tony's name on it. If I were Tony, I'd let any employee who didn't do their best to keep an owner (regardless of whether or not original purchaser) of a Galazan product happy, know they will soon be looking for another line of work.
Acceptable responses from CSM could be - it's difficult - it's expensive - it will take time. But the one response CSM should never give is, we don't want to help because we're really just too busy to care.
Every company that cares to stay in business should be smart enough to know the value of finding the time to care and help an owner of their products...it's called customer service and it generates future sales.

I've looked at a couple of CSMC Foxes on the used market myself. Most of them have at least the initials on the trigger guard some have "made for ???? on the barrels in gold"

My take is that buying one on the used market is such a savings over having CSMC build one, it's worth putting up with the initials. The other thing I've decided is that if I would have one made. I wouldn't have my initials put on one, just in case I wanted or needed to part with the gun down the road.

I feel the most important question that needs to be asked is.

"Does the life-time warranty roll over to the new owner"

What a cruddy company. It's not like you were asking them to do it for free. They should be falling all over themselves to assist.

I have to say CSMC is one of those companies I've never dealt with but their general rating seems to run about 50%....for every good story I hear I hear one bad story. I don't deal with 50 percenters.

GregSY,
CSM really is better than 50%. I didn't mean to denigrate their efforts and believe (as will all companies) that the quality of the response you receive depends on who you talk to on any given day. Most small companies suffer from growing pains and CSM is no exception. I could certainly name other American shotgun manufacturers, dealers, custom stockmakers, etc. (but I won't) who do far, far less than CSM to make sure the customer gets what they need in a timely manner. I only meant to say that CSM needs to stay on their "toes" to keep the good will flowing.
As for initials on a gun, I don't like them (even my own), so I do like the idea of contacting a master like Ken Hurst if a change is required. JMO...but it's what I believe.

First, just go buy the gun if it is as good a deal as you imply.
Second,truth is, I am with Dick and Chuck on this one. The gun is what it is. Hell, the gun should outlive lots of generations. The original initials are part of it. You are just the current caretaker.

I also agree that if it really bugs ya, call Ken

Regards, Jake

If CSMC were out of business, I'd agree with the approach of leaving it alone. But, they are in biz and it makes every bit of sense to send it back to have it refitted with a new guard.

If it were 1920 and you had an 8 year old Fox (or whatever) you'd do the same. Of course, in 1920 they probably would have done it for free and made a customer for life.

Apparently CSM's customer service is non-transferable. I'd expect them to make a for fee repair on a second hand gun but a minor cosmetic alteration is a bit different. I think the suggestion of an outworker is sufficient customer service in this case.

Provenance:

"This gun was bespoke by Mr. LCL, thus his initials on the trigger guard. The gun was sold shortly after delivery to MR. LCL because...

Pick one.

a. Mr. LCL couldn't shoot it worth a crap, and decided a Remington 1100 would fit his style better"

b. Mr LCL lost all his money and his house in a variable rate mortgage deal and couldn't afford to keep a CSM FOX"

c. Mr. LCL needed bail money"

"The initials have been kept as delivered out of respect for the fickle MR. LCL who goes through shotguns like many men go through fancy ladies in Las Vegas. Hopefully future generations of 'caretakers' will have the same respect for the taste of this fine gentleman of the early part of the century who was generous enough to grace the trigger guard of this fine reproduction with his honorable initials."

If it were mine I'd just enjoy it "as is". I agree with the above posts that they have become part of the provenance. That is assuming that the trigger guard hasn't been damaged beyond repair or something like that....

Somehow this Thread has degenerated from a question of 'initials' to a rant against a company mostly by individuals that have not dealt with the company.
I can only tell you that I have known Tony for over 15 years but only recently purchased two of his guns. My dealings with Tony, Lou and everyone at CSMC have been exemplary but I try to see both sides of an issue.
If you don't want to do business with them because of one Posted incident or more than one Posted incident, that's OK because there are less orders to get in my way.
Frankly, there is no one in the USA and very few makers in the world that can supply the type of fine shotguns that CSMC can provide with the exceptional customer service I have had.-Dick

They're growing? What they should say, then, is "We would be glad to help but we are very backlogged. If you are willing to wait about XX weeks we can do it for XX dollars".

When you sell a high end gun like the CSMC Fox you should enter into that venture understanding that every gun that goes out the door is one of your children, and it someday may need some attention. We're not talking about a Remington 1100.

Everyone wants to be in the gun business buts no one wants to toe the line. It's a common problem in today's world. Everybody has been trained to want the easy and high profile jobs, double digit profits, and a summer cabin in the Rockies by age 53.

CSMC needs to make up their mind - are they a real gun maker or a prima donna?

PALUNC:
You are probably aware of the fact that CSMC sells trigger guards for $65 to $90 depending on whether or not you want a rolled edge. I believe they are the same guard they use on the Fox, but not positive.

Ken can certainly engrave it for you, but getting case color correct may be a bit of an issue. My guess is Turnbull could accomplish that feat.

My two cents would be to not worry about the initials, but I can understand wanting to personalize the gun, regardless of provenance.

Mike

I guess I wouldn't worry about the initials unless they were for Arnold Stephan Smith .....

Hey, I didn't mean to slam CSMC. I have talked to Lou again today and he gave me a name of a guy in my area who could do the work. I called and discussed and I may move forward with the purchase and have this guy and another do the work i need and maybe even upgrade it more.
I am going to save 3K this way. I want to say I have a CSMC 21 that they built for me. Lou was great to deal with and even though at times took a while for him to return my calls or e-mails he always did. Yes they are busy with the RBL and I hate they are starting up again when I needed this work done or was considering another gun from them. Lou has done a lot and has made some nice deals for me on accesories.
But I will say I would rather the work be done by them! And that would make it a factory original gun. I was dissapointed when I was given a not so enthusiatic answer to my problem. But I will save money and time doing it this way. So I guess I come out the winner.
Now would I deal with CSM again? YES! Definatley. They deliver an excellent product. I am just like everyone else, I want my stuff done quick and done right. If I have to go through the back door and save 3K then maybe that is a blessing in discuise!

There is another possiblity that hasn't been mentioned here. From what I can tell Tony doesn't in-house engrave the Foxes. There fore the gun your interested in was more than likely farmed out for the engraving. Ask Lou if you were to give him the serial # if he could tell you who did the engraving. Then contact that individual and have him do the work.

Buy the gun!
Keep the lettered triggerguard so you have the 'factory original' shotty. Get a replacement (I have an extra SW t-guard, PM me) polished and engraved to suit, lengthened if need be.

I'm very glad to hear that used CSMC Foxes are out, about, and reasonable.

Or, why not just buy the gun and shoot it the way it is while you wait for the new trigger guard you ordered? Then have it put on for you by your local smith. I have a Custom Grade Model 21 that has "Custom Built for Fred Remington" on the rib. Just left it the way it was.

I can see GregSY's point of view. I kind of shows how far we've come as a people. In the teens or the 20's Fox, Parker, Ithaca, or L.C. Smith would be more than happy to accomodate. You could actually call them & get a real sympathetic human being on the other end and not a machine. The would have been happy to do the job for little or nothing to build a loyal customer. The initials are part of the provenance, however. Too bad they are not "NB".

Best.....George

The local business advisors for CSMC crack me up.

It's possible, (although probably not likely) that LCL could, in the future, be president of the U.S. or a five star general in the Army. Wouldn't you wish you still had the original trigger guard at that point? I'd leave it as is, or at least replace the guard and keep the old one. Bill

I had no idea someone still recalls dealing with Fox. But seriously, like CSM, when dealing with thousands of public customers, it's not possible to satisfy everyone. Some customers don't want to be satisfied, they want to gripe, Fox surely had their share of grumbling customers no different than any company dealing with the public.

I like Tony and I like his company, but when I get the "Can't do it, and even if I could, I wouldn't." answer to a request, I just go elsewhere and forget it. If they don't want to do it, it doesn't mean they build bad guns or are not a good company, it just means they don't want to fool with reengraving trigger guards. There are many other ways to skin the trigger guard cat. As some have said, building a new trigger guard and saving the old one is a good idea.

If you don't like the gun "as is", from a investment standpoint, you shouldn't buy it. Once you start down the path of altering this gun, the value will decrease substantially. You shouldn't allow yourself to be bothered by the initials or DON'T buy the gun.
If the factory were willing to do the work, the value would stay intact.

I have a friend who recently bought a 103 year old British game gun. It was a 2 1/2" 12 gauge William Evans. He hadn't owned the gun a week and, against my advise, he had the chambers opened to 2 3/4", the forcing cones lengthened, and the chokes reamed. He, literally, destroyed the gun along with 103 years of history. If he's lucky, the gun is now worth half of what he paid for it.

His reasoning was that he wanted to shoot skeet with it. I told him, if he wants to shoot skeet, buy an 1100.

Plan B (to build a new trigger guard and save the old one) is a very acceptable alternative.

"He, literally, destroyed the gun along with 103 years of history. If he's lucky, the gun is now worth half of what he paid for it."

I agree his mods were poor, but I'd stop short of 'destroy'. Keep in mind all of his mods were invisible from the outside, and there will still be buyers who either will never know or could care less.


You guys are too accustomed to dealing with guns made by people no longer in business. It's foolish that he should have to have some outside party tamper with the guard when the company that made it is still around. Have we all forgotten that we love guns just the same if the were modified by the maker, and we hate them if they were modified by a third party?

If I were buying a CSMC that had been reworked by CSMC it would have a lot more value than one that had been reworked by Andy's Gun Shop.

I must say that I am not surprised by some of the comments. I had a RBL 20 gauge on order and was told by the front end lady that I could have it modified. When It came time to do it they backed out and told me I couldn't do it. It was disappointing and I canceled my order. However, I take exception to the comment that people are rude, because you didn't get your way.
Just becasue someone tells you "NO" does not make them an S.O.B. I run my own business and I know from personal experience that the more you try to please everybody, the more you make everybody mad. You can't be everything to everybody. I don't say this about members of this board but from dealings with people in my business; It's no wonder people get shot.-Spoiled brats with big mouths.

I think we get all wrapped around the axle on these guns. The gun being discussed is neither a historic artifact nor irreplaceable. If he wants to buy it and have CSM or someone other than CSM do some nice work on it, That's fine by me. If he wants to buy it and put a ladderbar trap rib, adjustable comb on it and barrel stickers, it is not something that I'd feel too strongly about either. 'might think someone that did this had a few rivets that weren't bucked, but that's about it.

"was told by the front end lady that I could have it modified. When It came time to do it they backed out and told me I couldn't do it. It was disappointing and I canceled my order"

It doesn't mean they are rude, but it might well mean they are dishonest.

GregSY that may be true, I don't have enough experiece to pass judgement. I'm sorry folks if I got my panties in a bind, but demanding behavior really strikes a match with me. Tell me one company that has a mission statement that reads, "your every wish is my command". Companies are in business to make money. End of story. They are not magic lamps that grant you 3 wishes.

p.s. the only place that I can think of that grants your every wish is the local whorehouse.

Ain't that the truth. Anyone that has had their own biz will tell you that. It's a balancing act at every turn.

The last time I went to the local whorehouse and asked for my wishes to be granted they were very accommodating...until I told them what my wishes were!

Any money at all is conducive to conversation but BIG money is suffered to ramble on. Apparently wheelbarrowfulls aren't enuf to create a good listener in some gunmaking quarters. I have small hope of becoming a Galazan patron.

jack

As as businessman, I also am unable to say yes to every customer request. However I will always offer up one or more alternatives that will answer the customer's needs. In the rare circumstance where this fails, I politely suggest that the customer consider modifying his needs so that I can do something to at least help him get closer to where he wants to be. If that fails and he goes elsewhere, I don't worry about it. He isn't going to find anyone else that can make him happy. Bill

The gold initials can be removed and tig welded over & re-engraved with initials of your choice. FWIW, Ken

I once saw a H&H Royal in a store. The guy brought it out in a case that had the name of a British army officer and his regiment. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. The price was good but the gun had been owned by a midget that had shortened the barrel and the stock as well as being off face. I have a gun with my initals on the trigger guard. It is a decision that only you can make.

There you go. It sounds like Ken Hurst is the guy for the job..... And Tom 28ga, a lot of us on here agree with your way of thinking. I know I do. But you would be surprised by the amount of people who do this to a gun. (Or a piece of history) Shame on them.