Hello...I have a 16 gauge side by side double that was on my grandfather's mantle due to a cracked stock. When talking to an elderly uncle of mine recently, I was told that he had hunted with it back in the 40s and 50s with modern ammo for that time and that there was nothing wrong with it...only the stock crack, which has become worse since then due to being dropped.
Anyway, the gun does not break open...it slides open, exposing the chambers and extractors. The only writing on it is "abeille" directly on top of the breach and there is a serial number of sorts hidden under the key lever mechanism. The only similar guns, and by similar I mean almost identical, I can find are the ones made by Darne. They have pics on their site, darneusa.com. It has a great deal of fine scrolling and an old, silvery finish. Double triggers as well. The only defect other than the cracked stock is the trigger gaurd, which has a bronzed spot where it was repaired. Does ANYONE know of a manufacturer other than Darne / Debruchet who may have used this same action. I'd love to put a new stock on it and use it...otherwise I'd sell or trade it for something I could use. It's a waste to leave it on my mantle. Any help would be greatly appreciated...thanks.

BD, welcome to The Board.

Ted will surely come along and tell you more about your "Bee".

JC

I'm sorry...meant to say 12g, not 16.

BD, pictures always help. Include water table and barrel flats.

JC

P.S.: If unfamiliar with the terms go to:
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#Back%20Action

Digital camera is out of commission at the moment. Not sure how to remove the stock from the steel, but I'm working on it. Trying to find some other numbers or marks for you.

The more I look at it, I'm pretty sure this stock isn't the original. Mating of steel to wood is really poor around trigger gaurd...worse than I could have done it, even. Once I get the stock(one piece, by the way)off, I'll let you know what I find under the barrels. Thanks again

We need Ted. He has posted in the past on seeing at least 2 of these Abeille Darne guns.

In the mean time, here is a bit about Darne:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20darne%20gb.htm

Pete

BD, to remove the barrels you have either a button on the bottom of the forend
or you open/slide the breech and you press down on a tab like the one seen
here with some lines. Then holding the gun securely you tap the butt on the floor
and the barrels slide back and come off. Be sure to hold both stock and barrels
as they will separate, :-)


JC

L' Abielle seems to have been a dealer of firearms for special occaisons (fine sporting guns). They were located on Rue Turbigo in Paris. They sold guns under their name rather than make them themselves, but maybe they did manufacture guns at some point. I see them as a smaller version of Gastienne Renette.

As to who made Darne type sliding breech guns....well...Darne made the most...but you can't rule out Charlin, Alexandre Bayle, Meyer, Clair Freres, Soleihac, Verney Carron, Lebel (Chatterault), Chevalier, and quite a few others.

Charlins cost more to produce than Darnes...so my guess is a L' Abielle sliding breech shotgun is probably a Charlin.

With all due respect, your guess would be wrong, Robert. The Abiells I have seen are direct copies of good old Regis Darne R patent guns, and every one has appeared to be a better quality copy of same. Course, that may/may not be the case here. I seem to remember the name being spelled "A'Baille", but, I might be wrong there.

Charlins are indeed, good quality, but, completely different in design and function, lacking the breech to barrel extension lockup and toggle driven wedge lockup of a Darne, which, as I've posted 'bout a jillion times, makes an R Darne my favorite, but, who cares?

Beagledog, you don't know me from Adam, and if you choose to ignore this advice, I can't blame you, but, I'd advise you to stop attempting any at home gunsmithing on this wonderful old gun. The fact that you are here asking questions points out in no uncertain terms you are in over your head, and I have handled far, far too many sliding breech guns that have been f *&%$d up by amature gunsmithing-that is not an understatement. Further, you don't hire a Checker cab mechanic to work on a Testarossa, so, if you are interested further, I can name a few gunsmiths that are qualified to put the gun back in service. At the top of the list would be Kirk Merrington, English trained, expensive, and worth every single penny, and Keith Kearcher comes to mind as well-do a google search, and you will find them.

Proceed further if you wish, but, I am at a point in life where I don't even tell people how to work on a sliding breech gun anymore. Parts are handfitted, expensive, and mostly not available, so keep that in mind if and when you tackle that project.

Good Luck.
Best,
Ted

Ted, are my instructions to remove the barrels even modestly accurate?

JC

JC,
Depends. Mostly, on what type of copy he may have. The Bruchets knew nothing of this maker when I was in France, and, it is possible that we have something different than the usual suspect here-Charlin made a sliding breech O/U, which, the instructions for dismantling are, of course, different than a typical Charlin. Few of us will ever see a Charlin O/U, but, they are out there. Which leads us right back to, what exactly does he have?
Best,
Ted

Ted,
I was only guessing Charlin as L'Abielle was a high end gun supplier...how do you know Beag's gun has a toggle driven locking rib extension(?) making it a Darne?

Also,...I double and triple checked the spelling for A Bayle...Alexandre Bayle is the correct spelling.

just took a quick look...Bayle too had a wedge driven locking rib extension as early as 1930...but it's very interesting how you've drawn some advanced dividing lines...I had just assumed that all the rib extensions were locking.

I've only known 3 Darnes and a Charlin over the years and not all at once so that I could compare them....so the bulk of what know is from photos, 4 sale listings, patents, and catalogs...then I have to try and recall what I've learned when I stumble into an overpriced one at the gunshow...It's not a good system, I know

Robert,
Only an educated guess based on the guns I have handled, and a few facts gleened while I was last in France, not a totally reliable system either, but, those are the guns I have seen.

The guns I have seen were beyond "close", they were perfect copies of Regis Darne 1894 patent R models. Very good copies, with excellent engraving, finishing and wood.

If we get to see a picture, I'll know more, or, maybe not. Quite a few twists in the road on Darne copies.

For what it is worth, I've never seen, handled, or viewed a photo of a Charlin sliding breech gun copy. The over-the-center device that is the basis for a Charlin (remember, the breech is NOT locked to the barrels in any way in a Charlin) is quite a machining work of art. Further, since the Charlin was produced by the Darne company from 1955 until 1965, after the Charlin company went bankrupt, any Charlin based copies would be well known by Paul Bruchet, since he was employed by Darne at the time. Like I said, he had never heard of the A Bayle. There exist Darne R patent guns that are marked Charlin, I'm not sure of the history of these, but, I smell a rat in the Darne ownership/production of that name for a decade.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...
Best,
Ted

I find Louis Charlin from at least 1904 (in business with famous maker Jean Santiot) to 1963 (Charlin the company) a completely separate company as Darne....also it seems that Charlin, the company, invented the plume barrel in 1949.....

Alexandre Bayle made sliding breech shotguns between the wars, that to my untrained eye, look more like a Charlin than a Darne.

Ted and others, thank you for your replies. I certainly don't want to jeopordize the gun in any way...I only wanted to know more about it and, if it is worth while, which I must say it seems to be by the response, to replace the stock. In order to give a little more info to the experts on such matters, getting a look at the bottom of the barrels seems critical. I just don't see how I can separate them from the stock as there appears to be a threaded stud which comes down through the forestock from under the barrels, on which there appears to be a nut that I am clueless as to how to remove. Perhaps the stud is from an ill attemped sling installation, but the barrels already have one so that doesn't seem probable. I will however try the way suggested by jaycee and see what happens. I will keep you posted and again, thanks for your interest.

Robert, you may have Bayle correct, but the poster was right on his spelling of "Abeille"--which, as someone above indicated, means "Bee" in French.

Great description, jaycee...I got the barrels off and I again apologize for the lack of pics. First off, the serial numbers match. Each barrel has a small insignia...looks like two crossed branches or antlers with a crown in the middle and little plus + signs on each side? Looking down on the barrel, they appear sideways and then from between the branches opposite the crown, it says, I believe, STETIENNE. The first letter is definitely S and the ENNE at the end is correct also. The stuff in the middle is a little shady. Stamped to the right of these, on each barrel, is 18.2. Then, stamped off the barrels, on the flat surface is 65, top and bottom. To the right of these are two more crown like things, but different from the first ones. These look more like 3 Ys standing on a curved line...they are immediately followed by PI. There is one more stamp on the bottom barrel only, down in the valley, that says S.R?ss maybe? Not sure at all about the letter I've indicated with the question mark...a little shady as well. These are all within an oval. Finally, on the flat part, right in the middle and meant to be read with the barrels perpendicular, sight down, it says CHOKE...the second word starts with R and appears to be about 7 letters long and end with an E. These two words are arched, from left to right, and then under them, stamped straight, not arched, is COT and then a few more letters. The stamp is weak on the right side and the letters are faint. I realize that this is as poor a description as you may have ever heard, but without a functioning camera, Its the best I can do. Thanks, Dave

Beag,
What does it say on the top of the operating key (toggle)?

Larry.
The word abielle does in fact mean bee...but the guns sold on Rue Turbigo in Paris are marked "L'Abielle"...and they proudly marked them with a Paris street address similar to London made guns ....Beag never mentioned a street address so perhaps this is something different...maybe Beag can look and tell us exactly

Robert, it just says "abeille". Just like that, with the quotation marks.

Beag,
That's new to me...I've read in threads on this forum about abielle, but the only examples I've seen were marked "L'Abielle".. I've even viewed one of their catalogs...but anyway...if you want to learn more about your fixed (sliding breech) shotgun, you should borrow a camera that has a macro setting and post several detailed pics of your gun...some of the contributors on this system know every detail of the French proofing and touchmark systems...if I were you, I would post the photos and print their responses for your records...sometimes, the more you know about your gun, the more it's worth...especially to yourself...these guys will also tell you the best courses of action to take in order to get it back into service...

Beag, you might try this site, it new and dedicated to Darne and other French makers.

JIm

http://www.gournetusa.com/forum/

Robert, since you've asked for photographic proof about Belgian doubles with a Deeley forend latch . . . you have any photos of anything marked "Abielle"? I still think you're flipflopping the i and the e. Easy to do for those of us that are native speakers of English: "I before E, except after C . . . " But not in French.

Larry,
Perhaps you need new glasses...please read my previous response where I CLEARLY stated "but the only examples I've seen were marked "L'Abielle"...

Now smartass...if I stated that I had only seen "L'Abielle" why would I have photos of guns marked "Abielle" ? Did you happen to notice the "L" before the word Abielle...even if I have the i&e mixed up...

Would you like to be counter productive? Some jerk is lying through his teeth about Deeley latches...so you think that gives you an inroad into my credibility? From this point forward, I will be closely watching your posts for errors (even slight spelling errors)...I seem to remember a few years back when you were telling some kid that his Daly shotgun that was COVERED in Belgian proofs was actually made in Germany...

Larry Brown...you have crossed the line of politeness and fair play again. Please crosscheck your posted facts in the future, because I will be there to point out even the smallest spelling mistakes.

If I get the chance to rephotograph my grade 5 "L'Abielle" this weekend (locked in my cousin's safe), I will post the photos to show everyone here what an ass you can be at times...you post far more errors than I...including this one

Do you think being cantankerous and quarrelsome are your domain only? I will follow suit and we'll all see how you deal with a taste of your own medicine.

The increasing acrimony on this board is becoming tiresome!

Ahmen to that, Brother...Geo

Nullus est liber tam malus ut non aliqua parte prosit

Pete

Yes Robert, I did indeed read your previous post. Likewise, I read a post from someone who says he OWNS Belgian doubles with Deeley latches--but you questioned that, asking for photographic proof. So . . . why should anyone believe your claim about "L'Abielle"--the "L'", by the way, being inconsequential, as anyone who speaks French (as I do) would tell you, since it's simply the definite article, like "the" in English--without similar photographic proof forthcoming from you? Especially since I have seen French guns marked "Abeille", and since Beag looked at his, which has the same spelling.

So there's something wrong with holding you to the same standards you require of others, Robert? Do as I say, not as I do--would that be your motto?

And feel free to watch away where my posts are concerned, Bobby Boy. Something from several years ago . . . right, like I'm going to mistake Belgian proofs for German. Having owned numerous guns made both places. You care to dig up that "error" on my part, or are you just miffed that someone finally got around to calling you on your overblown pomposity?

Apply the same standards of "proof" to yourself, Robert, that you apply to everyone else, and you'll have no problem with me. And if you can come up with a photo of a gun marked "L'Abielle", that's fine by me. That was all I asked for.

Well there you go...thank you for spelling out exactly what your motivations were when you typed your second last post...to qoute yourself..."are you just miffed that someone finally got around to calling you on your overblown pomposity?" (is that really what you imagined yourself doing as you typed?)

You see...you had no intentions of discussing the gun in question...you had some other agenda to play out..."calling me" out on your own projected character flaw... you were so bent on you're mission of character attack, that you couldn't even take time to correctly read my post...so you just went ahead and based your agruement on a misquote....

What gives here Larry? What's really bothering you? Does is upset you that I mentioned the imagined pecking order? Do you think that it's alright when you (admittedly) make a post that is designed to pick a fight, rather than accurately discuss the topic? Are there special rules for the guys who think they are top of this imagined pecking order?

Even you, the self appointed authority on Belgian guns can't post a photo of a Belgian Deeley latch...it's not that they aren't out there, they're just very uncommon.

That guy was lying like a rug...AND YOU KNOW IT...but the pecking order is more important to you than truth or accuracy. Sorry Larry, historical accuracy is more important to me, and that is why I say that your accusation of "overblown pomposity" is actually a projection of your character flaw not mine. I have many of my own, please keep yours to yourself.

Also, other members threads are for discussing their subject...if you have any more emotional baggage to play out, please start a separate thread...

For f##k sake, not again. Please, please, please give it a rest. It hurts my head to come upon such garbage. This board is for information about double guns and related subjects. How hard is it to refrain from insults? Would you prefer to destroy this board?
npm

Nial,
I agree...it was Larry Brown who admittedly began this emotional fray...based on a misquote and his perception that he was "calling me out" for some reason...

Robert, you started with the above mistake, and you then get all huffy when I suggest you may have misremembered the spelling you've seen on some French guns. You see, your quote is in error. "Abielle" does not mean bee in French. It doesn't mean ANYTHING in French. "Abeille" is the French word for bee, and you don't even need to dig into someone's gun safe to check it. All you need is a French dictionary. Just as it's spelled on Beagle's gun, and on French guns I've seen.

But if you have a French gun marked "L'Abielle", please produce photographic evidence. Same standard you've demanded of others. And no, I DON'T know someone is lying when they say they have a few Belgian guns with Deeley latches--and neither do you. You're only assuming you know that, apparently because you think you know everything about Belgian guns. Were you ever in the military, Robert? If so, I can't believe some NCO didn't tell you what happens when you ASS-U-ME things.

But while I'm waiting for photographic evidence of your "L'Abielle", I won't call you a liar--although I will point out that the name certainly does not mean bee.

If, by "Plume" barrel, one means a swamped rib barrel, 1949 is WAY late in the ballgame for someone to try to take credit for that. Regis Darne had been using swamped ribs for well over 50 years by then, and I'm pretty sure other gunmakers had used the idea also by 1949. I've never seen anyone take credit for that invention, assuming it was a rib choice from way back in the day of French guns.

I have seen stainless steel Charlins (actually "Charlin", as in singular-the Bruchets have one, just the action, that was a display item at the Charlin company before it fell into Darne company hands, that is immersed in a large jar of water) and know that they patented, and built, raised, ventilated ribs for Charlin guns. Not their finest moment, but, the only rib patent I can find exclusive to Charlin.

I'd love to see the evidence of this particular A'bielle gun in photos. I am pretty certain that the guns I have seen had different spelling upon them.

A further point, not really worth anything, is that the photo you provided showing a Darne and a Charlin, Robert (thank you, by the way) is not really illustrating a Darne, per say-it is a clone, based on the early 1894 Regis Darne R model patent, and produced by Francisque Darne, Regis Darne's eldest son.
Note the rocker type safety, located in the base of the action, rather than in the sliding breech, as used by most Darne R model guns produced after 1909.

It's a fine point, but, one that must be understood, when involved in the study of Darne guns.
Best,
Ted

Ted,
When I refer to the plume barrels, I am referring to barrels with a top rib only...the front sling swivel goes between the barrels and is attached to the underside of the top rib...it was yet again another step in the French thinking that light and safe is sometimes valued above all other shooting qualities. Should I post the patent?

Plume barrels are a fine point, but, one that must be understood, when involved in the study of Darne guns.(do you see how pompous that sounds when I play it back for you?)... What kind of Darne student doesn't know what plume barrels are? Face it Ted, when it comes to French guns, we are all beginners.


Larry,
You have got to be kidding me...you started all this crap because you caught me mixing the I and E...well you got me...as for the accuracy of the info that I posted, what do you have to say? Is that the best you can roll out on your emotional tirade? That I misspelled, what is in this case is, a proper noun.

Yeah, you really showed me...but I disagree about your NCO nonsense...you made an ass out of yourself...you didn't need my help at all...but I was glad to be there for the assist

Sure, post the patent-I wonder how it was possible to patent something that had been in practical use for half a century previously.

Sling swivels attached to the upper rib, on a gun that didn't have a lower rib were not a new idea in 1949. A plume rib barrel, by definition, doesn't have a lower rib, which, I'm guessing you assume I didn't know. As a matter of fact, while one might assume a "band" barrel, which featured a raised rib was only available with an underrib, this was not the case-and, it was still called a "band" barrel, when built sans underrib, not "plume". So, what exactly is your point? Since you are good with the posting feature, go to the 1909, 1936, or 1948 Darne catalogs and post for us exactly how the Darne plume ribs equipped with sling swivels differ from the Charlin patent of 1949. Sling swivels, along with the retractable sling, and the bretelle Darne were all available options prior to 1949.

On a Darne gun without an underrib, a little ramp is soldered onto the bottom of the top rib, and a sling swivel is installed. Not sure how anything like that could be patented.

I'd love to see it, and know exactly what was being patented. Bad news is, we likely will need Larry to translate it, since, more than likely, it is in French, and the devil is in the details.

You know Robert, I thanked you for posting a decent picture, and simply pointed out that the photo posted was not a Darne. I've burned enough hours on the computer and the phone trying to get people to understand that one simply can't look at a sliding breech gun and call it a Darne, or buy parts for it, for example, just because it is a sliding breech gun, and it has the word Darne on it. The "pompous" comment was intended for general consumption, and not specifically aimed at anyone, and certainly not you. I thought I made it clear that I believe I have more to learn when I pointed out I hadn't seen that exact spelling, and would love to know more about the gun.

Sorry if you took offense.

Since I'm not up for a repeat of the post a while back that forced Dave to pull rank and order better manners to be displayed, or else, if Mr. Beagledogxxx has specific questions, and perhaps a photo or two, especially of the barrel flats, feel free to send them along to tedjs@usfamily.net.

I love to see them, and can likely make sense of the information on them for you.
Best,
Ted

Just to add to the pictorial of Darne guns:




JC

P.S.: Seriously doubt a picture of a French gun marked "L'Abielle" will be forthcoming.
Just a human mistake. jc

JC
you are correct...I won't be posting any pics of the gun...or anything esle for the consumption of wise guys like yourself and Larry Brown...all I did was mix the I and E...and for that you guys got ugly...I'll be paying close attention to your posts in the future as well...

So, no photo of the mysterious "L'Abielle" shotgun after all, Robert--of which you were so certain? You could've saved a whole bunch of bandwidth--and yourself a hearty meal of crow--if you'd simply admitted your mistake from the get-go.

I have no more time for you here either--but I will toss a few non-clunkers with Deeley latches your way over on the other thread.

Larry, or should I say Miss Manners,
Nobody wants to see your Deeley latches...they want to see your abeille...marked on a French double without the capitol L..

let's all see if you can back up your mouth with the same photographic evidence that you ask me to produce..

Here's my proof big mouth...now let's see yours..."Apply the same standards of "proof" to yourself, Robert, that you apply to everyone else, and you'll have no problem with me."
now let's apply those standards to yourself...

If I ever see you trying to teach some other member "a lesson" I promise to sling more mud than you are prepared for..

Who appointed you Miss Manners anyway? You must first learn to keep your own bad manners in check before you go around appointing yourself the assistant principal. You can't teach what you don't know..

I'll bet that you can't back your word with the hard evidence...You may want to reconsider your field of expertise...it's certainly not French or Belgian guns...maybe a book on French makers will help you get up to speed, maybe a book on manners as well

The photo I posted above proves that Larry is just a big windbag...I don't need to see his Deeley latches to know that I've probably forgotten more about French and Belgian shotguns than he knows...when he doesn't know the answer, he simply cooks one up...I read his posts before...

I don't care if you taught French to the CIA...I too graduated from Ft. Huachuca....and I know that even when your on the inside, your nobody...and when your out, your a bigger nobody

NEWS FLASH...there is no pecking order Larry, do everyone a favor and stop trying to maintain it...it cloud the issues being discussed and you've disrupted this thread beyond academic pursuit...

Robert, I have not been trying to be a wise guy.
I can clearly read "L'Abeille" on the picture of the nice Belgian (not French) gun you have posted, not "L'Abielle". "Importe de Belgique" means Imported from Belgium.

One can always make mistakes and should recognize them quickly and emphatically.

Best,

JC

Did you happen to notice the Paris street address?

Oh yes I did. That is the shop that IMPORTED it and sold it.

Do read how I sign. I really mean it.

Au revoir.

JC

Sez JABC right on the barrel ol'bean!
TooT sweet too!

A mon avis le mec a une abeille dans son chapeau!
K.

Yes, indeedy, Belgian import, clear as a bell. Robt., I can understand how you can produce photographic evidence which proves the other guys' case; I don't understand why you have? Is it a case of "dyslexia for cure no found"? Why can't you dial it down to "If you've seen them A&D latches fine, I haven't."?

jack

There's an unusual one for sale at Holts if you haven't seen it already.
Charlin
Very pretty one

What means "lightweight alloy" action? SS or Duraluminum? I am confused. I had not previously considered stainless lightwgt. Is the pretty one ss?

jack

Lightweight alloy should be duraluminium and the silver finish on the O/U one polished bright after hardening.
I only put the links up in reference to Charlin as both are a bit special not in reference to the stainless action.

Rabbit,
I had just said on another thread, that lead to this thread..copied and pasted below...



Over the years, I've tried to acquire the best example of one of these thoroughbreds I could afford to...currently I have a double proofed Rouchoux with a wrist circumference of 4 inches in 16ga...that's less that 1.3 inches in diameter...L' Abielle (Paris) sold some of the best examples but I believe they were actually produced in Belgium

Edited by Robert Chambers (November, 27 2007 11:47 PM)

_______________________________________________________________

I knew this one is Belgian, but other collectors claim to have them made by St Etienne artisans...I haven't handled one yet, but I have no reason to doubt their assessment of the proofs and touchmarks ...I've seen L'Abeille catalogs around over the years...all from Paris...so apparently they are alot like Gastienne Renette in that they obviously sold guns produced in Belguim (by Cordy), yet some collectors claim to have GR guns actually produced by GR...


Hey Larry...did you notice that I misspelled Rouchouse as well? Does that mean I due another lesson in manners?

Actually, it makes you sound more and more like Capt.Queeg.

Thanks for the clarification, Arnold. As they say, Two air is who, man? Two four jive da vine. So many balls in the air here and now some rolled between finger and thumb!

jack

Post is locked...congratulations to both Robert and Larry for getting enough people to email mail me complaining about their sparring on this thread.

Gentlemen please...stay off each other...the constant banter is getting untenable.

Also, refrain from hi-jacking this and any other thread. If you wish to broach a new topic start a new thread.