OK, I am giving up on the idea of shooting damascus barrel sxs guns in CAS. A little too fuzzy for my limited knowledge of the subject. But you guys know doubleguns and so I bring it back to you. I have had great luck with Husqvarna rolling block rifles and shotguns and have owned literally dozens in a rotating collection. I know that their sxs guns are highly thought of. I am looking at one Model 51 that might meet my needs. Though I am not a big fan of back action locks. The other is a Bayard with steel barrels.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info_9.php?products_id=1923

I have done alot of business with these guys and they are always happy to take guns back (I have sent back two, no questions asked). Seems to be a sound and attractive sxs and in my price range. It has steel barrels and I would bet, though have not confirmed, post 1924 nitro proofs. Any opinions?

Rudy,

We have used heavily a Husqvarna M51 16 gauge for some years and a few friends have 12 gauge versions. Really good, solid guns, IF there is no damage to lockup (underlugs and crossbolt and lockup in general) and no extensive pitting, dents, hacked off barrels, reaming, cracked or badly oil-soaked stocks, etc. Those long backaction locks are among the most reliable, plus, they generally allow the hammer to be cocked with less effort than the shorter-springed versions, like on that Bayard (I have both types). All M51s I have shot had decent trigger letoffs -- still, good to have letoff checked. Do look at firing pins carefully. One I have had poorly home-made ones -- had machinest make new ones.

All the M51s I have handled have rather modern stock dimensions, with drop at heel of about 2,0 inches. They are quite good wingshooting guns and both barrels shoot to same POI, at least all I have shot or heard about. All originally had 65 mm chambers. There is enough metal in barrels to lengthen to 70 mm.

I have no personal experience with Bayard hammer guns. However, I can say the following with confidence.

Hopefully, that Bayard has "dolls head", as well as double underlugs. Those backaction side locks on it are, like the longer ones on the M51, originally a Sauer design and also found on Husqvarna M52 (Husqvarna copy of Sauer M2?) and early Sauer hammer doubles (M2, etc.). I would look carefully at underlugs for signs of "blacksmithing", or ask person at Simpson Ltd. to do it for you. Beware that their "excellent" bores can still have lots of pitts when cleaned carefully.

The Bayard originally had 65 mm chambers. No idea about barrel wall thickness just ahead of chambers. With brass hulls, no problem.

All these guns originally had flat-topped, net checkering, NOT pointy-topped diamond checkering. Don't let folks tell you the checkering is badly worn, just because of the flat-topped. IF redone with diamond checkering, look for what else has been "redone".

Those "nitro" proofs are likely more like CIP than SAAMI. No problem if reloading, especially 12 gauge.

Niklas

Thanks NiklasP. The folks at Simpsons are generally very good about pulling any gun in their inventory and giving detailed descriptions over the phone and allows instant answers to questions. Harder to get an email answered. I will print this out and use as a guide during my conversation with them.
Cheers!

That looks like lovely assembly line made Piper. If all original in the barrels you could shoot that thing no problemo with lower pressure 65mm shells.

I'm a low-pressure guy all around - even in my non-gun life. Intend to shoot mild BP loads and maybe some Winchester Ultra-lite target loads. It is a pretty shotgun.

Rudy,

It may not make any difference to you, but, best I can tell from pics on Simpson site, drop at heel of Bayard is much more than for M51 Husqvarna they have recently listed. That could be 2,0 inches vs 3,0 or so/more inches.

The M51 is a plain gun, no engraving or etching at all -- nice lines though. So, if pretty is important to you .................

Niklas

Both the Pieper and Husqvarna made guns are a good value for the money. The gun at Simson was produced when Nicolas Pieper was running the company. My guess is some time after 1905 in the huge Pieper factory. It has all the typical Bayard markings, engraving, etc. It will have a greener cross bolt.

When you get it, take a look at the proof marks. If you have questions, you can post them here along with pictures of the proof marks, which will help to pin down the production date.


The issue is more than the chambers or damascus. Pieper did change their steel to conform with the increasing service pressures over time. These shotguns where produced over a very long time. I have a 28ga version made in the late 1940's that I use for hunting. Took some grouse and rabbit with it a few weeks ago in Wisconsin.

Pete

The pieper/Bayard you are looking at also has chopper lump barrels...if thats important to you...

Uuuum, OK, what is a "chopper lump" barrel? My gun vocabulary grows again.

Chopper lump barrels have the lumps made in one piece with the barrels rather than as a seperate part.

Here is the 28ga version of the gun you are considering, this one is from the late 1940's.
The only change is the addition of side-clips. This one retains much of it's case coloring.



Henri Pieper held many patents in Belgium, Germany, England and here. One of them was for his method of joining barrels.
This is his earliest demiblock or chopper lump, this is a 10ga. He was so proud of it that the rib bears the patent date, April 23, 1881.
Notice that the demiblock is fluid steel, the tubes are damascus and the muzzle is fluid steel.



He later modified and improved this method to look like this, in 1892.


For general gun related definitions:
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

Here are some close ups with explanation and diagrams:
Monoblock
http://www.hallowellco.com/monoblock_barrels.htm

Chopper block
http://www.hallowellco.com/lumps.htm

For some reason, people generally refer the demiblock (aka Chopper Lump) as being of Italian origins, which is not the case.
Though Beretta and others Italian makers later adopted this method.

Peter

To further expose my almost absolute ignorance of doublegun nomenclature, what the heck are lumps?
Oops. Never mind. Did not catch the PeteM post. Thanks.

Now a question of parts. I had one of the guys at Simpsons pull the Bayard. Seems he was impressed with its overall quality. CHecked the proofs for me (post 1924 nitro proofs). Has a defect: right side hammer spring is busted! Can a suitable replacement be had or made for a reasonable price?

Rudybollo,

Not sure where you located. I sent you a PM with info on someone I can recommend.

Pete

Hi PeteM. I am in Manitowoc, WI. Will check that PM.