At the local library sale a copy of Ned Schwings Model 21 book - $2.00. Probably the closest I'll ever come to actually owning one.

I will study it judiciously an try to discern why they cost so much....

Let me save you some time. Conclusion: One never knows for sure if the thing is original, custom shop gun, you know, and they went out of their way to please the buyer. He refers to stock checkering as carving, that dude must have never seen Suhl Schaftverschneidung!

Hope it wasn't a soft-cover edition......that'd be an oxymoron.

Sam

I've met up with his son once or twice...I think he still lives here in Houston.

Proponents of the M21 like to point out that it is the most 'sturdy' made of all the American doubles. It better be - it was developed late in the game and had the shoulders of all the other guns to stand on. Plus all the advances on manufacturing and metallurgy.


IMO the field grade guns are solid guns, the custom (engraved) guns are usually pretty outlandish and in the words of one well known gun writer, circus-like. Winchester never should have given carte blanche in the ordering of decoration.

The gaudiest of the factory engraving patterns was the #6 with gold, or the Grand American after 1960. It was very similar to the classic Arnold Griebel patterns, full coverage scroll with a dog or bird in gold on each side and on the floorplate. Arnold was recognized as a contemporary of Kornbrath and about the best in the country after Kornbrath's death. The circus like decoration would be all aftermarket stuff being examined by someone who barely knows what end the shot comes out, obviously. Most factory Model 21 engraving in the lower numbered grades was of only average execution, but hardly gaudy.

The circus like decoration would be all aftermarket stuff being examined by someone who barely knows what end the shot comes out, obviously

Tell that to Ed Muderlak, not me.

Some of those guns are quite special. Roger Bain Esq had a wonderful piece engraved in Germany for some Washington "Big Bwana", no doubt. The deep relief engraving was vastly superior to most vintage Winchester stuff. It looked like work of maestri Werner Hofmann. I couldn't collect 50K in change to get that one.
PS. Check out Larry Brown's 'How Good is the Model 21?' on SSBBS. With > 150 responses, I suspect full broadsides are being exchanged between wealthy ones who have a few vs. some who can't afford one, or choose not to buy one. Basically 21 12br is a nice light 8br you many not be able to carry all day.

Where in the world does one come up with the M21 being a light 8 ga ,or 10 ga when one of my M21 12 ga is 7 lbs 14 oz and the other is 7 lbs 7 oz (my #3 L.C. Smith comes in at 9 lbs 10 oz)? They were and are the best hardware store guns made in America.And,if too heavy,carry 6 less shells or you need to see your cardiologist.

Hard cover, First Edition, did it ever get a second printing?

I use one of mine as a beater for pheasant, squirrel, and rabbit. Another for turkey. And another one or two for trap shooting. I didn't have to buy eight of them to fall in love with them. And when I handle my 20 gauge or open the Custom Grade and hear those ejectors sing, I know it is the only gun the good Lord put his whole heart and soul into.

So, how many of you have read this book? I still have mine.

While I had personally owned a high grade 21 with two bbls. I did not like it. I respect the fine quality and the durability of the gun. My issue was it just did not feel lively as compared to other guns. The same for Krieghoff, to me I like the liveliness of a Perazzi better.

Fortunately we have choices.

John
Quality Arms

Amen, John. It cannot be explained. It has to be experienced.

As a sxs guy I’ve owned the Schwing book for years. I appreciate the photos as much as the information.

I went thru a big American Classic period and owned a few of the major brands - Ithaca, L.C. Smith and Fox. I shoot my guns, but never shot them hard like I would a modern o/u. They all broke. I got sick of fixing them so I bought a pair of BSS shotguns, a 12 and a 20. Incredibly well built and the 20 handles well, but that 30” 12 gauge is like driving a bus without power steering. I shot it well, but it didn’t give me that feeling that a well balanced sxs can. Just over a year ago I test drove a 32” M21 Duck. Oh, my. 7lb 13oz of long, svelte lovely shotgun. The first time I shot it I won the sporting clays event at the Duluth Double gun. It’s a 2 barrel set with the 32s having Briley thin walls and the 26” barrels are IC/Mod. I can run the skeet field easily with either set of barrels. I had it restocked to fit me with exhibition black walnut and it’s stunning. Just got it all done 2 weeks before the Duluth shoot this year. I shot it even better and won the whole shoot! A long barreled Duck is a delightful 12 gauge with fabulous handling qualities. A 32” Trap with a vent rib and a proper trap stock feels like a big American gun and will go 8.5lb - an entirely different feeling gun.

21s tend to affect many people strongly. I wasn’t a big fan until I started handling the lighter weight 12s with long barrels. A double trigger/extractor 16 or 20 gauge with light barrels does have game gun handling, but these are not common nor are they what collectors want. They are well built guns that you can shoot hard and they hold their value. I’m not giving mine up!

You are rightarrieta2. The model 21 can be heavy to carry in the field in the fall on a cold morning. Some people even refer to them as being clunky. And I know there is a world of difference with a 12 gauge Model 21 and say, my Browning Citori. I guess for me, part of it is carrying a Model 21 for a beater and I enjoy the history of the Winchester being an American Gun. It all kind of falls together for me. I don't have the experience of having a Krieghoff in the field, but I know that their trap guns are a heavier gun. Never owned a Perazzi either, but some of my friends have. And they seem to like them. As you say, we have choices. And you have made some good ones. Good luck..

Good story, JNW. I have been looking for a BSS lately myself. Great to hear from you!!

The closest I am to a 21 is a Canadian Centennial Model 23. I do like it. I also have a pair of Browning BSS's in 12 and 20 that I like a lot also. Like John said, it is good that we have choices!! Would I ever buy a 21?? Maybe, but the price would have to be verrrrryyy right!!

As much as I would like to own a Model 21 Skeet grade in either 16 or 20 gauge, the cost is just too much. Overpriced, actually. I realize that is the case with most if not all of the big-name vendors, but I can buy a very nice gun for a lot less than a Model 21 that in all honesty is most likely not original. Regardless of what the ad may say...

I find people to be heavily opinionated on these subjects--- right, wrong, doesn't really matter to me, the stronger opinions sometimes seem silly in my opinion and I often apprecaite the chuckle. I remain impressed, but not enamoured with the 21. I want to love it, but it plays too new, too modern, for me. You can feel it. They feel very good in my opinion. So do many, many modern Over/ Unders. Yeah I said it. There are truckloads of great guns out there. I still can't understand the price hikes for "Grades" TRAP, ,SKEET, DUCK are all the same base model gun in my opinion. I have had 4 16ga 21s. All felt great and could have done anything I will ever need from a shotgun, but the first three didn't feel better than the stack of bills they were traded for. I bought a 4th (30 in, DT, Full and xfull chokes, extractors ) when I discovered 20 cases of 16 ga shotsells while cleaning out my barn. I am determined to shoot a case or two through it before I give in to the temptation of selling another 16 ga 21!

Good afternoon Mark.
When the time is right, I'd be interested in your 16 gauge 30 incher!'
It'll go nicely with my 20 gauge 30 incher

Bob



BTW, I’ve got a signed hardcover in the library
and a paperback on my desk in my office.

If you look through old Gun Digests, you will see a lot of customized Winchester Model 21s....and there's a reason for that. As expensive as they are for what they are, they still need a craftsman gunsmith with metal and stockworking skills to detail them into a game gun....with a game gun handling weight and feel. If you will spend the money, I know several members of the ACGG that have done and can do that kind of work. But you have to be willing to pay for what you want.

I've had mine for many years and have no intention of parting with it.

Ha-ha!! I just looked, and there is one of these books on Amazon for sale for $431.45!!

Uh-oh!! The price has dropped to $353.00!!