I posted this picture on that bat shooting thread. You guys want to know a little more about that amazing catch well here we go.

Phil Brown out of Lancaster County PA made the catch of 1285 fox. There was a one page clip on him in the May Outdoor life mag this year. I am frineds will Phil and helped him count and put that catch up on his barn that day.

Here's the stats on this unreal catch. Remember he works for himself pouring concrete, your talking about a guy leaving the house at 2am and returning at dark for 89 days. Running non stop and if it wasn't for his understanding wife it would have been tough. She prepares all his meals, wash...... he comes home that night skins and goes to bed.

1202 fox caught in 90 days
1200 caught in 89 days
1185 fox in picture
11 fox threw away for mange
6 fox threw away dog ripped
9247 traps check in 90 days
13 fox average a day for 90 days
683 males
519 females
24 days with 20 or more fox a day
Best day 34 fox-135 traps
mabe best day 30 fox-90 traps
worst day 0 fox 48 traps,only 0 day this year
skinned 964 fox myself
streched,and dried 888 fox myself
best 8 strait day catch 210 fox-1178 traps checked
Best 7 strait day fox catch 187 fox-1043 traps checked.
Also caught:
16 mink
50 muskrats
58 possum
68 coon
21 skunk
2 coyote.






Here we are getting the first row up.

Like I said he lives in Amish country.





Here's a few trappers that I am friends with also.

Getting down to the final 10

Here's a good day's run.

Working the snow.


I'll post more if you want.

If you think mentioning killing a few bats is bad for PR for the anti-hunting crowd, just let 'em see this photo ...

AMEN!

Amazing, I new a gentleman 25 years ago that lived in Bath, Pa. Delivered grain in New York, New Jersey, and in Pa. On the side he trapped fox. Showed me how it was done, no clothing you wore on trap line in house, rubber boots when he got out of his vehicle. Shortened the chain, boiled traps and coated them with some specific coating, and carried two hard wood sticks on the lines. Asked him why he didn't just shoot them, he said blood, so he used the sticks, fox would grab on to one and he would wack it on the top bridge of it's nose. He also trapped mice around the barn and used the ones with the eyes open facing out of a hole, the other ones facing into the hole. Said a fox will circle on one going into the hole but will try to rush in on a facing one.
I wish he were still alive to see these pictures, and I'm sure that he would get in touch with him.
This was when there were still wild pheasants in the area.
How many miles does his trapline cover, it must be huge. He must be doing it for the pleasure, are the fur prices still way down? This gentleman I knew of would sometimes turn the ears in for the bounty of $5.00, but his daughter was a designer and she used some of the fur for coats or wraps.

The anti-hunters always pick on small states first, New Jersey, Rhode Island. They stopped the use of leg hold traps, said it was inhumane. Now you have to use conibers or snares. There will be no releasing of any animals now.
The only way that trapping will be stopped in Pa. is if the trappers themselves quit, a big state for trappers.
Also before anyone can say that an amimal caught in a leg hold trap cannot be released because of it's leg being broken, that is false. If you check the trap every 24 hrs. like you are supposed to, they can be released with no harm. I have done this with raccoon and fox 30+ yrs. ago.

Those fox are in storage due to a drop in the reds, He'll get his 22.50 this fall. His line takes him about 250 miles a day and 300 full bore. Trapping is a hobby for Phil like myself. I am a mink trapper and will 200 miles a day with hopes of 100-125 in a 5 week period. Pa has the largest trappers per any state and he runs into some stiff competition.

Thanks to Micheal Vick he's taken some of the pressure off trappers for a little while.

Someone should hire this guy as a gamekeeper!

You don't post for years and then come back with this.

Very cool!

I once commented to a farmer in PA that I had seen a fox while deer hunting on his property. He asked where the corpse was. When I told him I hadn't shot it he told me that was my last chance. If I didn't shoot every fox I saw from that moment on, I was not welcome to hunt on his farm........

I felt like this post was a test: Am I a true hunter or a weak stomached pretender. I failed. I don't want to regulate Phil or trapping but could never pursue it myself.

I better brew myself green tea and light some aromatherapy candles.

Yeti: killing is killing, no matter if it's red fox or a bat or even a mosquito.. Trapping is recognized by nearly all state DNRs and wildlife agencys as the best and most efficient way to maintain a healthy wildlife population.. If not practiced in a professional manner, it can be more cruel than necessary. In trapping the canines, it is less likely to cause the animal unnecessary pain, than in water trapping or racoon trapping.. It isn't for everyone, but I would probably have a problem looking thru a scope and sending a bullet toward an elk or pronghorn..MDC

It is hard for me to believe that anyone thinks that stack of bodies in anything but carnage. I have hunted my whole life. When I was a kid, I ran a little trap line in small rivers for muskrats and mink. But good Lord, that is a whole lotta dead little foxes. And the last pic with the fox in the snow caught in the leg hold trap that he has worn a trail around breaks my weak old heart. Just me. Jake

Most of those same arguments were used by the "sportsmen" who enjoyed shooting passenger pigeons by the thousand. Looking at a picture like that turns my stomach. I believe that none of my grandchildren have yet to see a fox in the wild.

George L

Craig: Anyone that says there is no suffering by a trapped animal is pulling your leg.. by the same token there is suffering when a large game animal is shot and wounded and has to be tracked down,, As for the fox, he makes that catch circle in the first hour or so and if not disturbed will lay dow and be still. I have on occasion came upon them asleep in the trap.. The fox was more lkely in a foot hold trap.. Many trappers are now using snares, which are more humane, However some States refuse to accept them as a legal means of fur harvesting''MDC

It never ceases to amaze me at some of the comments made on this site. Game taken under fair chase, within the guidelines of the law are at times on this site still spoken negatively about. Why is that? Sure that is ALOT of fox's, but the number doesn't make it wrong, nor does the pictures showing some captures in the leg traps. Would the comments be negative if I or someone else posted a picture of a duck or a pheasant being "pillow cased" by a load from one of our vintage double guns? I highly doubt it. What about some of the harvest numbers on the Dove hunting posts on this site and others. Hundreds of birds were harvested in one field on one day at times, is this bad? NO...it isn't to me, and I would have loved to seen them all lined up with the guns that took them.

Trapping tends to play on some peoples heart strings. One must remember, the laws were created to help maintain wildlife. The taking of these animals no matter in what numbers (within the law)are done to ensure proper levels of population. It is obvious that in that area, there is a huge fox population and thus, his high success rates. I would venture to say around that part of the country, quail numbers are down, I could be wrong though, but high populations of varmits as such take a devestating toll on quail, rabbit, pheasant, ducks, etc.

People should commend this guy for his accomplishment, not say things that imply something is wrong with the harvest numbers or the pictures of such. Hunting is hunting...trapping is trapping...if such things turn your stomach, may I humbly suggest you not post things here about it. We should be banding together for such legal efforts and results, not talking about how cute such and such was and it made me feel bad for it. That kind of talk from a hunter is just what the anti-hunters use against us. United means just that United...at times we are our worst enemy.

You said it very well Jason, and folks need to remember, that if Trapping were to be banned, then all hunting will
not be far behind.. For this man to have taken 1200 fox, the area was over-populated with fox and if a species becomes too over-populated, then nature takes over, thinning them out with rabies, mange, distemper etc. Like I said before, that DNR that lets you take your limit of doves, grouse and pheasant, recognizes trapping as the most valuable tool in wildlife management..MDC

It's not too heart breaking seeing that the varmit just left my hen house on a full stomach. Hobby: I think not. What it is: it is work and a lot of it depicting a way of life that will soon be all forgotten, if it isn't already. If one intends to have game to hunt, then it is necessary until more folk eat more opossum, wear fox coats and don a Raccoon cap. I don't know where the coyote and feral cats will be displayed but the feral hogs chops will be kept in the freezer for special occasions.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Iron Man Phil and BoxBirder, you have my respect and thanks! Salute!

I submit that if in your heart of hearts you cannot justify legal trapping, you cannot justify hunting at all...Geo

To those who be be so critical: the guy is making an honest living as a trapper, and a hard living at that. Don't be so squeamish.

Figure that a Fox needs to eat one good meal every two or three days. Mice are nice but quail, rabbits and pheasant are larger and a better kill when you can get them. Do the math. 1200 Fox times 180 meals equals 216,000. Throw in the rest of his trapping and you might as well call it a cool 250,000 meals. That is one heck of a lot of potential game animals that will be alive because of his efforts. Anyone here made that big of an impact in game management lately?

Holy moly!!! The thing that comes to my mind is there must be a tremendous population of them dogs and it's no wonder that I've heard phez hunting is a nearly defunct activity in PA. I have to admit, I don't think I could summon the I.F. (intestinal fortitude) to do all that. I would have run out of I.F. at about 1000.

But, in these days of double moca half caff cappaccino slurping pinko anti-hunters, even I can see this ain't sumptin that'll go unnoticed.

Jason said it well and the follow on comments in support of his position are right on.

My grandfather was a trapper in Pennsylvania from the '30's to some time in the '50's. He ran his trap line after spending all day working in a steel mill. Every dollar helped.

Trapping is a legitimate and NEEDED conservation program.

Don't now about conditions where some of you live, but as you can see foxes are in abundance in PA. This guy should be congratulated.

My only gripe is that he only caught two coyotes. They're becoming a real scourge on game animals where I live.

If you look at the US as a whole the fox population has been over taken by the coyote. The were many trappers 20 years ago that could take 500 fox with ease. Today it's all coyotes with small pockets of fox. Dr. Bob Wendt DVM and huge trapper feels that the fox population will be at and all time low in 20 years due to coyotes.

Trapping is a way of life for Phil and one of the few men that has an in with the Amish. They raise birds in a pen, let them out and are shot. That's OK but trapping isn't. The US was founded on fur and it is a deep heritage that many sportsman today frown on.


Mike where did your grandfather trap?

For those of us that are bird hunters, this gentleman has done us a favor. Trapping is a valid method of wildlife management for controling some species. Now if we could get the fur prices up on some other nest raiders like, skunks, racoons, and possums it would help.

I never thought I would see the day that even one member of this forum would condemn the legal harveting of fur bearing animals.. And now I wonder if any of our members might also be members of PETA..As for Mike's grandfather being a trapper, many of our grandfathers did so, and in many cases, it was to put food on the table.. I managed to keep 2 children in private schools, from 1979 to 1984, with money from fur trapping, when I lived in Atlanta..MDC

I see a coyote out in the woods, no questions asked, I start blasting till that critter is dead. I figure he has killed enough grouse and pheasant chicks and he ain't going to kill another one!!!
All the best

As long as it is within law....

1957 Peters Ammunition ad


This is now banned:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200502/s1305806.htm

Pete

Let me clarify - my original comment was not pro, or con, trapping, but rather the glorifying of the act by taking a lot of time and effort to stage and shoot those photos. The final act of stupidity was releasing them on the internet.

Let's see a show of hands - who thinks that photo will garner support and admiration for the trapping (and hunting) world? Now let's see who thinks it will find it's way into the wrong hands and foster hatred and resentment for the trapping world?

Who among us thinks it would do us good to have that photo on the cover of Time magazine?

Well GregSY I'll have to agree, they, the anti-hunters will have a field day with this no doubt, proving the excessive and inhumane nature of hunting and trapping.
All the best

One day last week, I put about 300 miles on my vehicle in Lancaster, York, Adams, and adjoining counties in PA. I didn't see one pheasant, either in a field or dead on the road. It seems like there are way too many foxes in that area and trapping is a legitimate method to control them. Intensive farming is probably as much to blame as predators for the absense of a serious game bird population, but predators are a factor.

Normally I wouldn't care.

But after the bat debacle [welcome to histamosis in the attic], this takes the pileo'horsedung prize.

Whota buncha freakin' effette wusses. Period.

"Carnage?" Get a bleepin life, der buddy. Them foxes ain't vegatarians, regardless of what the PETAphiles preach. They are bloody carnivorous reality. And so are hunters, BTW. And trappers. Most trappers just aren't hanging out at the Clays Range; they're out workin'.

Buncha Ramensuckin' noodlebrains, or what, here?

WE are predators. We KILL things. We take out their guts, and take off their hides and cook and eat them. We USE them. If they are competitive predators, we kill enough of them to enable us to contol that desired resource. We have bloody hands.

You can't and shouldn't soft pedal that. Quit apologizing, quit philosiphizing and rub the PETAsuckers noses right in it. Screw them looony tunes and say so, loudly and often. Rub y'r self with dirt and rancid animal fat, wear an uncured skin and show up AR publicity events claiming that YOUR historic rights as a human being are being VIOLATED by these twit brains.

A good place to start is at HSUS headquarter and outside Wayne Pacelle's Manahatten townhouse, eh?

And no, I don't GAF what your reply is, or if you don't like what I said. Burn up those keyboards all ya want; it's just bleepin electrons. Anywayz, follow y'r placatory lead, and keyboard hunting is all we'll have left by the time the AR-ists and their Bad Gun allies get thru taking y'r well dressed, polit, appeasing selves to the political woodshed.

Good God, now I remember why I quite reading these things. Barf.

Cordially,

John Meeker,

who's gonna take his Chessies and go kill some flying edible things with his his cheap, used Mossberg camo'd Utilimag.

Re: Iron Man Phil
Awesome Photos
Let's consider some rough stats

1202 foxes @ $2250 = $27045
-250mi x 90days = 22500 mi @ 15mpg?
= 1500 gals gas x @2.50? = $3750
2am-9pm = 19 hr days x 90 days = 1710 hrs

$27045
- $3750 gas
= $23295/1710 hrs = $13.62 hourly
not counting truck depreciation and any other expenses
I'm not very good at math, but if I'm in the ballpark I would say this gentleman darn sure earns his money and our gratitude.
Mike B.

JohnM couldn't agree with you more however, who would have thought in that great state of Illinois with its hunting tradition twenty years ago that you would have to have a Firearms Identification Card to own a firearm??? Politics and politicians make the rules that we all live by, including hunting AND they don't like images like this!!!!
All the best

I must admit that, although I read "everything" in here, I didn't read the bat thread because I knew what was coming. Meeker has the proper attitude about this trapping thing, the PETA, the other organizations that perform illegal acts of protest, then stop at McDonalds on the way home to gorge their plump little bodies on dead meat. I suffered through those people at the Hegins pigeon shoots for years, educating myself on their tactics, lies, exaggerations, and, yes, their hamburger and fried chicken appetites. Reply with vigor to their accusations. They are criminals and they are hypocrites and they do not tell the truth about their methods and motives. As Meeker says, "Screw them and post the pictures."

These kinds of threads always seem to polarize our membership. Not sure it's worth all that.

Frankly, I think the guy is doing a fine job of both earning some dough and controlling a population problem of the fox.

But, members here that hunt deer are all too aware of conveying a negative image of the hunting community by things like transporting a deer carcus on the hood or roof of a car/truck and other seemingly (to us) insignificant acts. It's kinda like fartin in church; some people find it offensive, some find it comical, some (at least one) find it refreshing, but there is a group that think that whole section of pews (no pun...well maybe) stinks.

-sensibilities-
Such a strange word to refer to emotions...

I know I try not to scare the ponies and sheep into a bounding stampede but know I should think twice about decrying this posting of a season's harvest. It's magnificent! The bounty and work that led to this picture is astounding.

I'm as guilty as the next person in allowing my sensibilities to be influenced by the masses, but realize now and then that this is to be avoided. I'd rather have a conversation about right and wrong than about how things contribute to the neighbors' proliferative displeasures. I think we can probably manage to step up to the challenge of defending the harvest. If not...

The reason Phil took that picture was it was the largest fox catch ever in the history of trapping by one man. There are trappers in MD who take 1400-1400 but they are 2 men teams. The Leggets.

There are many Eastern trappers me included that will travel out west and trap the big ranches. Your loved for taking the coyote out of bird area's. Many bird hunters trash on the trapper out there also.

Here's another friend that is a trapper in NV check his site out.
http://www.grayfoxtrapping.com

I wish ol' Phil was trappin 'yotes in my favorite quail patch out here in the west.

Here's a few clips from the KY FWS about coyotes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn5HHrCG9pg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2F6Jt4jb0&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lbUC6B2FqY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrd4QLNDpTg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67pVgK6cXUk&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csCgcI8dbj0&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eB2GsCxC5U&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpn26K2MUpc&mode=related&search=

I'll only mention that the red fox is not native to the United States. It was imported from England for horse and hound hunting. I might ask, how many grey fox were caught and released due to their low value? Not worth the trouble.

Thanks,

Kurt

I have never asked, but have always assumed it was on and around the old family homestead near Lewisburg, PA.

Our family still owns three plots of between 25 & 40 acres but the rest of the area has been developed into McMansions on 5-6 acres. Not much trapping any more.

...but then, neither are the ringnecked phez, chukar, Huns, and a few other upland birds that comprise a big portion of what many of us hunt.

So managing one of these non-native species for the benefit of the others shouldn't bother us at all. It didn't bother me before your point, but now reinforces my thoughts.

Mike,
Eggzakly. I'm not sure what Ben's point was about mentioning that the red fox is not native. Those gamebirds aren't native either. 'shouldn't matter one way or the other whether they're native or "indigenous" (which just means man didn't migrate them).

For those of you still 'sorting out their "inner predator" thing, a little suggested reading on the subject, by a philosopher or three:

Bloodties: Nature, Culture, and the Hunt, by Ted Kerasote

A View to Death in the Morning: Hunting and Nature through History, by Matt Cartmill

Songbirds, Truffles and Wolves: An American Naturalist in Italy, by Gary Paul Nabhan

If you don't have time for the above, try Steven Bodio's "On the Edge of the Wild", specifically, the chapters " Struck with Consequence", "The Great Debate", "Private Reconciliation Chili", and "Meat".

Although, one should have 'sorted all these things out well before becoming a member here, in my opinion, but, I digress.
Best,
Ted

With all the "quotes" and ambiguous analogies in these posts, it is very hard to tell whether posters agree with volume trapping of fox or disagree. Not everyone makes their point or their attitude clear. My undergraduate composition instructors would turn most of these posts back to the writer for revision for clarity. Personally, if you can trap 2665 foxes in the Lancaster County vicinity in a reasonable amount of time, they needed to be thinned a bit. Of course, clean cut farmers and residential builders need to be thinned a bit also, but it's their land.

Notwithstanding whether we agree or disagree with the business of trapping, if I were the public relations guy in charge of getting folks to eat more beef, I wouldn't publish pictures of the slaughterhouse operation. If people want to believe that steaks are harmlessly and painlessly removed from the happy cows, let'em believe it...Geo

Exactly right, Geo.

"Historical significance" aside (yawn), we all know the reason the photo was taken was so the trapper could have bragging rights for years to come. It's the equivalent of getting an Oscar amongst the outdoors-flannel-Skoal crowd.

If he could see past his own nose he would see that he's just ensuring the downfall of his 'profession' by staging those photos. So that he might brag, others will lose.

I very much appreciate "eightbores" point an to it I will make this clarification: My mention of the fact that the red fox is not native to North America was only a point of information and to some extent to make note that it obviously competes with our grey fox. The grey, I also point out, has considerably less market value. My question was how many greys had to be released from the traps in the arduous collection of that many reds. Both type of fox are trapped using the same methods thus many greys are trapped in the attempt to collect reds. It is unavoidable. The question was posed to make note of the additional burden of catching and releasing unwanted greys and to ascertain how many greys are out there. As to ChuckH's comment on the upland bird species that are alien and released for the purpose of hunting, I generally have no problem with this except for a concern that indigenous species may suffer as result of the competion and that games departments may neglect indigenous species, like the bobwhite quail, and defer to interest by sportsmen in chukers and ringneck pheasant. But back to the specific issue of 1285 red fox taken- I am happy the man can still make income from his pursuit and I hope he and his grandchildren (if they wish) are able to do so far into the future. It is my hope that the grey fox finds favor again too! Fox trapping or trapping in general, is one of the few commercial wildlife activities of which I remain in favor-unlike pheasant farm hunting and shooting "managed" deer over food plots from preset blinds. The later is much the same as my pursuit of groundhogs except I have to find the holes, set up my own equipement and fewer are excluded from the pursuit by a price tag . And NO I do not eat every ground hog I shoot. If any further clarification is required I will oblige.

Kurt

Bill,
To paraphrase Matthew Quigley: This ain't college an' you ain't Wyatt Earp ...er, ah, well sumptin like that. OK, I'll clarify my thoughts. I have no problem with the volume of red fox Phil trapped...at all. I'm in agreement with those that believe staging the pic was an act of self-centered bragging, which I whole heartedly think he earned. I'm also in agreement with those that believe it will ultimately result in a negative response from non-hunting/trapping public. Double edged sword, you see.

With regard to those builders won't build if there's no one to buy. Too many people...nobody seems to get that nor want to talk about that...very much engrained in our culture to raise large families.

Kurt:; You're a little behind on the fur market..Last year the Grey pelts sold for 1/3 to 1/2 more than the reds.. this years market report in Fur Fish and Game, predicts reds @#20-$25 and greys @ $35-$40.. As for posting the photo, I think it matters little.PETA and other anti groups are so underhanded that they could doctor up other photos to include any number they want.. As for catching greys, not all habitat includes both species and a trapper can be selective, to an extent, in making, baiting and luring his sets, to avoid greys//MDC

MD, Thanks for the update! It is true that the last trapper I spoke to was checking his line, maybe as long as five years ago, when he told me that he released all greys due to low market price. I am happy the grey has made a comeback as this represents to me, a upsurge in the fur industry which was damaged by the antis. Anything legally done that conflicts with that crowd I like.

Thanks again,
Kurt

Right on the money, Chuck. The forces on builders are similar to the forces on Walmart. If nobody comes to buy there is no store. It is simply a reflection of buyers desires. Builders guess where people want to live and if they are wrong they do not make the mistake again.

Trying to get people to move to the city is a common cry for control of growth on open land. It apparently does not work since the buyer chooses where he will live, not the builder.

The only way to control development is to control birthrate and immigration.

Now, how do I know that?

Most indigenous species both plant and animal are just here longer than we are so we don't know how they got here and assume they were always here. We usually refer to nonindigenous species as ones that man has brought in.

"Trying to get people to move to the city is a common cry for control of growth on open land. It apparently does not work since the buyer chooses where he will live, not the builder"

That's great, but it presumes the builder has no culpability and is some sort of victim of circumstance.

The average house buyer (note I did not say 'home' buyer) would be glad to live in the city....but when he goes to buy his 3-2 on 1/5 acre with all the amenities it's located in a suburb.

The buyer might choose his tile color, but more often than not he's looking at houses that have been crammed onto the cheapest lot possible. It's either that or buy some 60 year old piece of junk in the city with a 60 amp service and lead pipes.

Are house buyers stupid and shortsighted? Yes. But so are developers and builders. The average developer swings a bigger club than the average house buyer.

In the future, lawyer jokes will have been replaced by developer jokes.

I dunno where you got this info. I don't know anyone around me that wants to live in the city.



A builder would be glad to put a house on a huge lot if that was what the general public wanted, but more often than not, the market would be slim due to the cost. Property values of the vacant land or existing developments set the value of the completed house/land property. Are there 'carpetbaggers'? Sure. It's up to the buyers to weed them out and not buy from them if they don't like their prices. This is a capitolistic society after all. If you want all the houses to cost the same, the U.S. is not the place to look for a house.



I sense a little anomousity here.
I think you just called just about everyone on this board "stupid and shortsighted". You must rent, right?

Chuck:

I believe you are digging a foxhole in the sand?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

He didn't catch one grey fox all season, you can't aways go by the FF&G prices, yes greys did very well last fall. You also have to take into consideration that last winter was a warm winter over seas. Therefore the fur market is soft right now and I doubt reds will bring that much in the SE PA area. They ware what is known as flats. But I have sent flats up to Canada during high prices and they were graded soft and paid well.

Phil has his own concrete business, after he takes all the loss of work and such to trap he's loosing money somtimes. When you into Long Lining like Phil that is all one thinks about. TO trap like that takes all year to prepare. He even made that catch with a hernia.

He'll head west for cats and coyotes then down south for beaver and otter this year. Trapping is either in your blood or you could careless about trapping. It's tough hard work with long days fighting the weather. A hunter can go duck hunting for a few hours and call it a day. An ethical trapper has to get up and check his line no matter what.

When I am mink trapping toss in dealing with water and you'll see grown men cry after a few hours of being wet, cold cracked hands, wet feet. Last winter I went full bore for Mink. After sitting down and figuring out what I lost from being away from my business each mink cost me 80 bucks to catch. It's a labor of love.

Look for the May Outdoor Life and you'll see they did a nice page on Phil. If you think the anti's are gaining ammo from that catch your dead wrong. They love to see outdoors men fight amungst themselves. We are out worse enemy when it comes to defending our rights even though we all eat from the same table.

Originally Posted By: GregSY
The average house buyer (note I did not say 'home' buyer) would be glad to live in the city....but when he goes to buy his 3-2 on 1/5 acre with all the amenities it's located in a suburb.


I dunno where you got this info. I don't know anyone around me that wants to live in the city.

You probably don't live in a cramped subdivision. Or maybe your neighbors also wish to avoid the crime and dirt of the city.


The buyer might choose his tile color, but more often than not he's looking at houses that have been crammed onto the cheapest lot possible. It's either that or buy some 60 year old piece of junk in the city with a 60 amp service and lead pipes.


A builder would be glad to put a house on a huge lot if that was what the general public wanted, but more often than not, the market would be slim due to the cost. Property values of the vacant land or existing developments set the value of the completed house/land property. Are there 'carpetbaggers'? Sure. It's up to the buyers to weed them out and not buy from them if they don't like their prices. This is a capitolistic society after all. If you want all the houses to cost the same, the U.S. is not the place to look for a house.

Developers specialize in cramming as many houses as possible into the smallest amount of space possible. House buyers put up with it because there is often no choice. When we bought our house we looked long and hard for a 1 acre lot and never found it. We settled for 3 acres.

Originally Posted By: GregSY
Are house buyers stupid and shortsighted? Yes. But so are developers and builders. The average developer swings a bigger club than the average house buyer.

In the future, lawyer jokes will have been replaced by developer jokes.


I sense a little anomousity here.
I think you just called just about everyone on this board "stupid and shortsighted". You must rent, right? No, I own a house. And everyone on this board is probably not the average house buyer.

The average house buyer is a young family with champagne tastes and a beer budget. The average builder sells sizzle over substance, and has little pride in his work.

Come to Houston and you won't find a builder willing to talk quality...he'd rather talk to the next guy who wants square footage and a wet bar.

My point is simply that it takes two to tango.....builders are hardly helpless urchins in the sea of life.

A little animosity might be an understatement. I am sorry that you had a bad experience in purchasing your house. It is unfortunate that you don't see it as a home.

The price of land is determined by the deal the builder gets from the landowner and the planning boards that control the zoning and lot size. It is a very controlled process and very risky to the developer. There is a lot of money to be made but it is more complicated than it appears. Building and bonding a road is not a simple operation and escrow money remains with the municipality for years. I have done one larger subdivision and would not do it again.

It is up to the buyer to determine if he is getting a good value. There are professional real estate people that can help him and there are inspectors to make sure the house won't fall apart.

There are government intities that review and inspect zoning, plumbing, framing, electic, fire safety and then all of these again after finishing. There are different qualities of workmanship and there are different levels of amenities that can be included or added as options.

It might be different in the Northeast but it is not easy money especially when you look at the market now. The homes I built last year sold fortunately but the ones I built this year are still for sale. I am retiring and can't wait until they are gone.

All new homes built in NJ have a warranty that is mandated by law and controlled by the Dept of Community affairs. It is triggered by the homeowner. The DCA has arbitration powers and makes findings that must be followed or you cannot build here.

I have made repairs five years later, way after warranty is over, just to keep the owner happy but I am very proud of the homes I built and I often don't get a single call back for many of them. Most of them are built and then sold. Unfortunately, I cannot force anyone to buy them.

Builders are not helpless urchins in the sea of life but neither are the buyers from hell.

I apologize to board members about this unfortunate detour. We should be talking about trapping not builders.

I think I'll step outside my new home (Sorry, Builder, the Amish built mine), shoot a couple of rabid bats, walk over in the field, make a dirt hole set, use the bats for bait and catch a few red foxes... There.. We're right back on topic..MDC

Here's Phil with a good days run plus 2 buck mink.

Phil is a large man and I wouldn't want to piss him off. Phil done good.

For all of those opposed to the posting of these type of pictures, please do not read a magazine named Fur, Fish & Game. If you do you'll probably have your blood pressure go up several points. The man is one heck of a trapper. Predator control is big item in wildlife management, and yes there is a diffenent place for predators in the eco-system.