Thanks to the contributions of Robert Chambers, Daryl Hallquist, Ross Berck, and Dave Noreen, and 'harvesting' all the incredible Baker pics from Greg Martin's site, I put together another album. I'm trusting I'm not gonna get sued, but was afraid they'd all be lost in the internet dumpster soon.
Please let me know if you find any errors, and I'd be happy to add pics of any unique Baker guns if you'll send them by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net and thanks!
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17434920
Good job Rev!! Those don't look like farm boys on the cover of tha issue of The Baker Gunner!! I just scored a 1900 issue. Should be in the accumulated mail when I get home.
Neat Dave! If you could scan the cover, I'd sure like to add it to the album.
I still don't understand the pre-Folsom grading system. At least by the quality of damascus barrels used, it seems to be lower to higher B - A - K?? Is that correct? And what did 'K' stand for?
Thanks for graciously sharing all your knowledge!
K on the barrel or receiver flats stood for Krupp barrels. PKE would have Paragon Krupp Ejector. Early and late BG&F Co. guns were grade marked. Ones in the middle years usually weren't marked, except in the Batavia Series.
Thanks Daryl,but now I'm really confused. The 'K's I have up are Damascus barrel guns?!
I too, am having a little trouble with the grade no.s on top of the pictures. I see a BD and to my understanding B's were virtually A's with twist barrels, not Damascus. Can someone give me a run down on the grade system? I thought I had them figured out.
It's certainly possible that things are mis-labeled on the Greg Martin site. The 1909 Baker Gunner lists no "A" but:
Baker Grade “R” and Grade “S”
Baker Grade “B” and Hammer gun Grade “D” Twist
Baker Hammer “D” Damascus
revdocdrew, thanks so much for putting this together. I can't get enough info and pictures on these guns. A book on Baker would be nice!
I trying to figure out in my shallow mind, how to burn your work to a disk.
I think this grading problem has been a real albatros on Baker guns all these years. A Parker Bros. GH-Grade was essentially the same in 1888 and 1942, whereas it seems every peice of Baker paper I pick up has things slightly different.
The only Bakers I've seen with obvious grade stamps are the later Folsom made guns. I'm sure many of you have looked at more then I have.
My take on this Baker grades business is that early on there was the B-Grade with twist barrels, the A-Grade with Damascus barrels, and the Paragon Grade with finer Damascus barrels and a bit nicer engraving, profiling and wood. Then, about 1897 they added the Baker $100 Pigeon Gun which was essentially a Paragon but with Pigeons in the engraving and steel barrels. A bit later the Damascus barreled Paragon was also called the P-Grade and there was an N-Grade that was a Paragon with Krupp steel barrels. Then they added an L-Grade Trap Gun which was somewhat fancier. I think that during this time frame Baker also built some fancier guns that weren't shown in any of the paper I've seen. Later over a period of time it seems the R- and S-grades were phased in as the A- and B-grades were phased out. Eventually Expert and DeLuxe grades were added to the line. Then the Paragon Model Nineteen Nine with different shaped lock plates and different bolting.
I never thought of it when I was doing my research on other old doubles there, but I wonder if The Library of Congress has any volumes of "The Baker Gunner." At the prices single issues go for on ebay, and how seldom they appear, assembling a complete set would be quite a task.
Rev, here are some pics of a later Folsom 16-gauge, 30-inch Black Beauty Special Ejector --
Rev, I don't know where you are seeing the K's. Give an example of the Grade, serial no. and where the marks are. A gun marked PK would be Paragon Krupp. Yes, many of the Greg Martin guns were missmarked.
Thanks Dave and Daryl!-these were the grades as listed on Martin's on-line catalog
http://www.gmartin-auctions.com/gma/catalogs/june07_catalog.html All the ones he labeled 'B' did have 'Damascus Twist' barrels, and the 'K's had the same Crolle pattern as the 'A's.
I'll correct the captions on the album
Drew, On page 3 of the 1909 Baker Gunner, they indicate that:
"The first model Baker Hammerless was built in two grades designated as the "A" and "B", the difference consisting chiefly in the barrels of which the "A" had fine Damascus, the "B" London twist.
These guns have given splendid satisfaction down to the present time, but for the sake of later models and higher finish, the "A" grade is being gradually closed out and the "B" grade is manufactured only in limited quantities."
As has been previously mentioned, thanks very much for all your efforts with the Paper Trail.
Gordon
Thanks Gordon, that helps indentify the date of the grade changes.
And for anyone interested, “The Baker Gunner” 1909 reprint is available from Cornell Publications
http://www.cornellpubs.com:80/Templates3/Baker%201909.htm
Resarcher, Where does the early Baker boxlock hammerless fit in the chain of events? It's outward apperance looks like a Syracuse but I was told by you and others it was a Baker.
Gunny:
I can't tell you where the Baker box-lock guns fit into a specific Baker gun manufacturing period; but there are numbers of outward cosmetic and mechanical differences between the Baker and Syracuse Arms Company box-lock models. The most obvious differences are that the Baker gun will have three exposed pins (not screws) on each side of the frame, while the Syracuse/Hollenbeck gun will have only two exposed pins on either side of the frame; the second most obvious difference is the barrel lug, 3/8" wide on the Baker and 5/8" on the Syracuse (the Baker lug is also longer). Other cosmetic differences include rib matting, safety sides, trigger plates, butt-plates, etc; etc.
My understanding is...........that the A & B grades were not engraved but etched. How was this done?
Toward the end of the PictureTrail, Ross Berck's pics of the progression of lockplate styles shows the early guns to have been etched (and with one pin); the later guns were engraved (and had 3 pins)
revdocdrew, a very nice picture trail, I really enjoyed your work, thanks!
Craig
Early A and B grades were etched. After around serial no. 3000 or so they were hand engraved. I have never found any information on how this was done, but have seen etching used by some other makers.
Thanks Daryl.
Just today I received this neat Baker ad from the Program for the Second Annual Amateur Tournament, Kendallville, Indiana Limited Gun Club, Sept 11 & 12, 1906
This is a photo of my Baker, with the birds apparently etched and the rest of the lockplate and the frame engraved. I'm told by Buck Hamlin that this was a special order gun, due to the quality of the damascus, the upgraded wood and the number of birds. It has 2 on one side and 3 quail on the other. I have had other people call it a standard A grade, so, who knows. Serial # is 2721 and note the 3 pins.
Gordon
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This is the damascus pattern on Gordon's gun
And this from a Paragon
Very similar if not the same Three Iron Crolle, and a pattern I have not seen used by other makers of that era.
Drew, the top rib has the same pattern as the photo of the Paragon.
Daryl..........how was the etching done by the other makers you spoke about?
The copy of The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900, I scored off ebay was waiting in the accumulated mail When I got home from Alaska 18 hours late!! There is no nifty cover picture like the issue you showed on The Picture Trail. Eight pages of articles and testimonials on the hammer-block safety, and testimonials on Baker guns in general. One little article on the weights of Trap/Pigeon guns used by the likes of Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounces), H.D. Bates (7 pounds 13 ounces), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounces), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounces), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounces), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounces). There was no indication or claim that any of these shooters used a Baker Gun, and I know Capt. Money is normally listed shooting a Parker Bros. and Col. Courtney normally shot a Remington. Several of the others I know pimped for whoever was picking up the tab. At one point in time W.R. Crosby did some fine shooting with a Baker. Nothing really surprising here in that the Pigeon rules of the time limited a gun to 8 pounds.
At this date they only appeared to offer 5 guns -- Model 1897 hammer gun with twist barrels $25 net, Model 1897 Hammer gun with Damascus barrels $27.80 net, the B-Grade with "London Damascus twist" barrels for $35 net, the A-Grade with Fine Four-Blade Damascus barrels $42.75 net, and the Paragon Grade with fine four-blade Damascus barrels with extra fine figure $60 net. There is a half a sentence that eludes to higher priced guns built to special order. They state that they introduced the Paragon about two years ago, but have been so busy with the lower priced guns that they haven't devoted the time and energy they should have in bringing it to the notice of the shooting public. They state that they do not have any Paragon Grade guns in stock and all are made to order requiring 4 to 8 weeks. They state that the normal engraving is scroll, dogs, and game; but could be all scroll, scroll and dogs or scroll and game.
There is some interesting text about the engraving on the B- and A-grades. "The cut of the Baker hammerless gun as shown here was made from one of the regular "B" grade guns picked from our stock on hand and is a fair sample of the engraving we put on these guns. We do not guarantee that every "B" grade gun will be engraved from just the same design but endeavor to have about the same amount of engraving on each. ... You may receive a "B" with a different design of border or a duck or a dog in place of the two quail, or a dog pointing game, we cannot tell as it is our aim to give a variety of designs." So, looks like when they went into inventory to get the gauge, barrel length and stock dimensions you wanted the engraving was a crap shoot.
Ten gauge guns were offered with 30- and 32-inch barrels; 12-gauge guns with 28-, 30- and 32-inch barrels; and 16-gauge with 28- and 30-inch barrels. Choice of grip style was only mentioned with the Paragon, the other four were all round-knob half-pistol grips.
Dave has been incredible gracious in sharing his knowledge and 'stuff' and we'll get that infro, and some pics, added to the PictureTrail.
I expect to receive a re-print of the 1909 Sears fall catalog soon, and will likely have some additions to the 'A.J. Aubrey and Meriden' PictureTrail also.
Lots of great stuff from Dave, and some new neat Baker ads are up
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17434920
More neat pics from Researcher up!
More great stuff up from
The Baker Gun Quarterly courtesy of Researcher
