I recently picked up an Ideal Long Range with ejectors and 3" chambers, mfg 1925 with London steel barrels. Patterned using 2.5" loads 1 1/8 oz and 3 drams BP I got 91% and 94% at 30yds with a 30' circle. Its in very good condition, shows good case colors, minimal wear and no cracks in the stock. Since it has 3" chambers and is the Long Range I expect it could take a higher psi load than a normal 2.5 or 2 5/8 chambered gun of the same vintage. Trying to decide on an appropriate 3" load for it. What would be the maximum 'safe' psi I should be cautious of?

MY guess is SAAMI maximum of 11,500. Seriously.

Didn't they use that type gun to develop SuperX shells?so its capable of using modern shells ,steel with choke modification.

Do you actually believe the head of the stock of that gun is up to 3” loads?

Have you had one apart?

Best,
Ted

Before I used any heavy loads in that Smith I'd have a tiny bit of relief done behind the lock plates and have the area glass bedded. I had one done like this some years ago and it has held up fine. No sign of the work is apparent from the outside and, if done properly, it prevents the almost inevitable cracking behind the tail of the lockplates.

All 12 ga. L.C. Smith's were 2 3/4" chambers unless ordered differently and then the barrels water table would have the chamber length stamped on it.
In my opinion shooting near maximum psi in these old guns now is not a good thing.

I owned a 3 inch l c smith wildfowl I didn't shoot a lot of 3 inch shells , the gun "I owned" I didn't have a problem.i know lc smith can be a "problem with the stock".the o.p. asked about safe loads

I believe the Super Fox was used by Winchester to develop the Super X loads.

By a safe load I mean a load I can continually shoot and not have to worry about first, cracking the stock, and then loosening the action or bulging a barrel. I do agree with you Stan. On any suspect older guns I've always had them glass bedded. I'm also quite aware that advertised loads on a new gun 100 years ago may not be the best thing with the same gun 100 years later. I would be surprised if in the roll out of the Long Range models the advertising didn't mention what loads or psi could be used. Perhaps Darrel H. has some advertising material he could post. That would at least give me a starting point.

The others beat me to it . . . The stock is the concern. There are plenty of lighter to moderate loads that will get the job done just fine

In the absence of low pressure reloads there is at least one commercially available load that I would not hesitate using in it continually. That is the B & P Comp One load, a 1 oz. load that has chamber pressure in the lower 8000 psi range, as I recall. Very mild recoil and velocity listed at 1160 which, IMHO, may be very nearly the perfect velocity for best patterning of target and upland birds. For even less stress on the old wood they offer a 7/8 oz. load as well.

https://baschieri-pellagriusa.com/competition/competition-one/

The gun was made for the progressive burning smokeless powder, high velocity, 12-gauge 3-inch shell with 1 3/8-ounce of shot --






The 1 5/8-ounce, 12-gauge, 3-inch magnum load came out in 1935 along with the Winchester Model 12 Heavy Duck.

A few years back when I was editor of the L.C. Smith Journal, Dr. Drew Hause and Dr. Jim Stubbendieck were writing an article about the so called merits of the Longrange 3" chammbered guns. When the Longrange first came out Hunter Arms stated it was good at 80 yards and had a advertisement stating that. They wanted to see if there was truth to it. I had a Longrange 3" and said I would try to duplicate the load used then, after some research I used a new Winchester 3" hull with 41.5 grains Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester WAA12SL wad with 1 3/8 oz. of #5 I believe. I used my range finder and set the target up and used my truck's hood as a rest. At 80 yards the picture of the duck in the 30" circle looked the size of a sparrow. Fired the right barrel first, choked at .041 constriction and walked up and counted the pellets in the 30" circle, I can't remember how many there were but only one pellet went through the wing. Second barrel .041 constirction put two in the body, probably would kill him but not right away. At 80 yards you would have to have some great eyes to see what kind of duck, but back then I don't know if there were limits. I believe it was hyperbole by Hunter Arms.
By the way, I only fired two shells and that was enough for me, this was in summer and with just a tee shirt you can imagine the recoil felt. 32" barrels.

If Brother Drew sees this I'm sure he has some of the pictures used in the article, I can't remember which Journal it was in.

Drew is in Guatemala at the missions now. He'll be back in a few days. The reports sound like it's been hard tiring trip.

Stan,
Is that an Iver Johnson in your photo? The shape and pin locations look like an Iver Johnson. If so, it appears to be in great shape, perhaps refinished?

Larry

It is Larry. It's an I. J. Special Trap. 32" full choked barrel. It was the only SBT made in America with an external hammer. I've got another I need to restore. I've got new wood semi-inletted for it.

Cool old poor man's trap gun. That one may have been refinished but if so it was a long, long time ago.

Edited to add: The 1931 Iver Johnson catalog listed it at $16.00 retail.

Thanks that is why I haven't seen any posts from him on here or on the L.C. Smith forum.

I'd imagine the hardest thing for the Preacher is finding people in Guatemala... since most of them are being lured by the anti-gun Democrat Joe Biden to illegally enter the U.S., at our expense. And you all wondered where those Trillions of "Build Back Better" dollars went.

He might find it far easier and less tiring to just become a Chaplain in the Texas National Guard. Then he could preach to Guatemalans, Hondurans, Venezuelans, Nicaraguans, Columbians, Bolivians, Syrians, and even Chinese illegals. And he won't have to give any immunization shots, since the illegals don't appear to be required to have the same vaccines as any young natural born U.S. citizens entering public schools. Think about that. I'm sure glad we no longer have to worry about communicable disease transmissions... except when we go to the polls to vote!

Then we need fear-mongering and lots and lots of absentee ballots, that take weeks to tabulate. Nothing to see here, so shut up and believe what you are told by CNN and MSNBC.

Dave, or anyone else, what was the purpose of having a "Telegraphic Cipher" codeword for each loading, as shown in the 1935 catalog page you posted? This is the first time I've ever noticed this.

Desperately attempting to compose a coherent sentence but will try

This is Bro. David's pattern, which was published in the DGJ Volume 24, Issue 1, Page 137, 2013.



The Long Range was introduced in 1923, but Hunter Arms records show that one was made in 1921 and an Eagle Grade Long Range in 1922. Only 14 were made in 1923. Total production of Long Range shotguns (1921-41) was 2,606, and of Wild Fowl 98 (1940-42).



Not all LRWF were made with 3 inch chambers, and should be marked "CHAMBERS 3 INCHES" in a semi-circle if so. And most, but not all, have the "reinforcing wedge barrel loop support"



In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. advertising flyer for the "Super-X Long Range Load" by Capt. Chas. Askins, the "Sea and Bay Duck Load" is described as 1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Drams (Dupont Oval) with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps (modern numbers are measured 3 feet from the muzzle and would be about 1330 fps) and a breech pressure of 3 3/4 Tons or just below the current SAAMI 12g maximum of 11,500 psi.

I agree with everyone that the primary issue is cracking the head of the stock and would also agree having the stock glas bedded would certainly allow use of today's (non steel) waterfowl loads with confidence.

BTW: still plenty of women and children in Guatemala. We gave food to this family - 3 sisters and 10 kids, and another on the way, living in grandma's shack, with one man around. Some of the men who go to the U.S. return, but most start "2nd families' in the U.S. and never come back. Money sent home 1st goes to the man's parents.
The economy has recovered from the pandemic. There is hope with the election of an anti-corruption/reform President, but they've heard that before.
Until the curses of corruption, alcohol, gang crime/violence, and the machismo culture is cured by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit there really is no hope for the women and children however.



Happy kids with their gift bags



Lots more pics on our ministry Facebook page. I'm not selling anything so won't be sending my $12 to Dave keith God's gift of salvation by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus is free to sinners...who know they need a Savior
https://www.facebook.com/drew.hause.77

Those are some wonderful smiles! Happy children are great to see.

That sounds like the exact same problem Joe Biden has. Do you think dystonia and dementia are related in some way?

Preacher by now you should understand that a single pattern from a single load only tells us something about that one particular barrel and load combination. Even different guns of the same make, model, and choke configuration may produce different patterns or points of impact. Those old ads convinced a lot of waterfowl hunters that they could kill at extreme ranges, but each gun would have to be individually tested to know. The reality was that some ducks died while others were crippled or got away.

In the past, I have mentioned my very first shotgun, a lowly Savage Model 220A 20 gauge hammerless single shot. I wish I could say I was able to reliably run straights with it when skeet shooting, or kill every bird or rabbit I shot at. But I had a lot of frustrating misses, and found it far easier to hit game or clay targets with my Dad's shotgun. In time, as I got older and a little bit more informed, I began to notice that when I did hit a clay target, it was very often turned to a cloud of dust. And some game I shot with it, especially at shorter ranges, would have extensive meat damage. I had read about patterning, so one day while out hunting, I paced off about 35 yards from a very large frost killed pumpkin, and shot at it to check my pattern.

Holy crap, the pattern was so tight that I immediately saw why it was hard to hit with my gun, and why clay targets were often dusted and game was often shredded. I learned to try to hold my fire to let game and targets get further out, and my hit percentage improved. My longest ever ringneck pheasant kill was made with that shotgun. It was an unethical sky-busting shot by any standards...under 100 yards, but not by much. Using a huge lead, I miraculously dropped the bird with one shot, and had to finish it by wringing its' neck. When I cleaned it, I found only two hits by the # 6 pellets, which broke one leg and one wing. So fortunately, it couldn't run or fly to get away crippled. It was a crosser, flying hard and helped by a stiff tail wind. Unethical or not, my hunting buddies who had all missed it with repeaters were as amazed as me that I knocked it down so far out. It was great eating, unlike some that were turned to pheasant burger when I hit them after a close flush.

I did some more informal patterning experiments, and found that the patterns were always extremely tight. These were all factory loads, pretty much the heaviest 2 3/4" 20 gauge loads that I could find on sale. Quite a few times, I showed my hunting buddies that I could take a pop or beer can, and pace off a full one hundred yards, and virtually always put anywhere from 1 to 3 pellets in it at that extreme range. I did it often enough to know it wasn't a random fluke. These were not wild guesses at the distance. I knew from checking many times, that on level ground, I covered 100 yards in 95 or 96 average normal paces. I never shot it at a pattern plate and counted pellets, and I never got around to measuring the bore and choke constriction. My Stan Baker bore gauge does not cover 20 ga. bores. In time, I moved on to other shotguns. Even now, I confess to not bothering with formal and extensive pattern testing. I will simply set up a large sheet of cardboard with a 30" circle at some known range like 40 yards, and let fly with a few shots to be satisfied that my gun and load will hit where I quickly point, and have a dense and even enough pattern to do the job I want. I own enough shotguns that I can always choose one suited to the job at hand, and never need to consider honing chokes or installing choke tubes. It helps to have a collection of guns versus a collection of gun pictures. When I saw David's post about how sparse the pattern from his L.C. Smith Long Range gun was at 80 yards, I was honestly a bit surprised, and confident that my little Savage 20 ga. single shot could do better at the same range.

I'm glad to hear that you were able to still find some people in Guatemala. That tin shack looks fairly nice compared to homeless encampments in anti=gun Democrat runs cities like Seattle or San Francisco. Hopefully we will get Donald Trump back in office to not only improve the economy, energy costs, National security, massive deficits, employment, etc., Donald Trump has a proven record that he can also regain control of a totally unsecured border that is saddling us with an invasion of illegal mostly male migrants. He could also stem the flow of deadly drugs that are killing over 100,000 Americans each year from drug overdoses under Biden's totally disastrous and treasonous policy of preventing our Federal Border Security and Immigration laws from being enforced. So if we all support Donald Trump, you and I can hope the Border Wall will soo be completed without Democrats again doing all they can to stop it, and that he will start to deport most of those illegal male migrants you mentioned. Then they can be returned to their families to support and raise their children, so you won't be so terribly burdened. It appears that Donald Trump could in that way be the best solution to their dire situation, which you say is almost hopeless under the status quo.


If we look at every Donor list since their inception, it appears you never have sent anything to Dave, so no surprises there.

I'm pretty observant about stuff like that, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm glad to see that you too have noticed that there are several Free Advertising Freeloaders who sell things here without paying Dave the $12.00 fee. So maybe you can say a prayer to save their souls, or ask them to do penance and make restitution. Please think about helping them to finally do the right thing. You may be their only hope.

Biden has typical Dementia-related gait changes (DRGC), not dystonia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2515920/#:~:text=Gait%20disorders%20are%20more%20prevalent,an%20increase%20in%20support%20phase.
His confabulation (repeating false stories over and over), inappropriate behavior (esp. towards children) and emotional lability (going off on reporters and staff) are very bad signs

3 patterns keith, but I agree 10 would be better.

One of my favorites Steve. Clothing tossed in bins in the U.S. are bundled on pallets and shipped to Guatemala for sale. This kid (and his proud mama) was in the middle of nowhere in SE Guatemala with a KC Royals t-shirt from the 80s

Mom looks incredibly appreciative. Wonderful work you are doing Drew.

Drew,

Would you please explain the, "reinforcing wedge barrel loop support". I have no idea what this is. A picture would help. Tks.

Hunter Arms affixed the loop with a screw and solder



Interesting x-ray showing the loop. Ignore the arrow indicating the bulged chamber from inexpert chamber lengthening



It was soon found that the loop did not survive a steady diet of 1 1/4 oz. 4 Dram Live Bird and Waterfowl loads

This is an early Fulton loop support



another



a version immediately the post-1913 "New Designs"



Most, but not all, LRWF had a more elegant 'reinforcing wedge'



As did most Trap and Skeet doubles with BTFEs

Even the lowly Crescents had a crude reinforcing wedge



An A grade Fox



From The Parker Story

Preacher, your link didn't work, but I had hoped you'd understand that my mention of the idea of dementia and dystonia being related was meant as a little inside joke, between us.

However, your assessment of Joe Biden's Dementia-related symptoms is only partially correct. His "confabulation (repeating false stories over and over)" has been going on for his entire career.

His "inappropriate behavior (esp. towards children)" has apparently been going on for decades too. According to the diary of his own daughter Ashley, she made entries explaining her hypersexual behavior, and mused about what might have caused that. Among other disturbing things, Ashley wrote about taking “showers with my dad” as a young girl which were “probably not appropriate.”

https://nypost.com/2023/12/18/news/who-is-ashley-biden-first-daughter-who-owes-thousands-in-taxes/

We can certainly imagine the hysteria if an entry like that had ever appeared in the diary of Donald Trump's daughter. The DOJ would be trying to put him in prison for pedophilia too!

And if Trump's daughter had an apparent cocaine and delinquent income tax problem, like Ashley and her brother Hunter, we'd never hear the end of that from the legacy media either. But they are pretty silent about it, because they are complicit.

Many Democrats and Biden supporters I speak to don't even know that Biden has a daughter. The News Media seems to do a very good job of keeping her profile exceedingly low, especially for the daughter of a president.

But speaking of dementia, do you suppose that some form of early onset dementia could explain why the guys (and gals) here who do continual Free Advertising in their taglines have forgotten that they are supposed to pay Dave $12.00 for each and every sale made as a result of those ads?

I think it's more likely that they haven't forgotten to pay Dave, rather they are displaying that "inappropriate behavior" and "confabulation" by simply refusing to pay the $12.00 fees which are owed.

One of them even has those "Emotional Lability" symptoms you mentioned.

Emotional lability refers to rapid, often exaggerated changes in mood, where strong emotions or feelings (uncontrollable laughing or crying, or heightened irritability or temper) occur. These very strong emotions are sometimes expressed in a way that is greater than the person's emotions.

I thought it was nothing more than a meltdown, but I like your more medical description of it. He/she frequently "Likes" me mentioning the Tagline Free Advertising, but then hysterically lashes out behind the scenes by continuing to Spam me with angry PM's. My PM Alert is flashing again right now.

I know this stuff about dementia and emotional lability is off topic, but I'm sure you agree that it is no more off topic than your reports and photos from Guatemala. We have even seen that picture of the kid with the KC Royals tee shirt several times in the past. And speaking of tee shirts for kids, here's one I really like:

Thanks Drew.