The current Shooting Sportsman issue has an article by Diggory Hadoke about the new OU from Westley Richards. The article states the gun is not proofed for steel shot, because, apparently, WR believes if you can afford six figures (plus) for a shotgun you can afford to shoot bismuth through it, which doesn’t require steel proof. Can Hevi-Shot be used? The guns are Teague choked. WR made a business decision to not proof their guns for steel shot, which I find extremely short sighted. Maybe the new guns can’t handle the requirements of steel? Am I correct that Purdey and H&H now proof their guns for steel? Seems a shame to spend that kind of coin on a top of the line gun made with sophisticated manufacturing applications when it can’t handle modern ammo. Comments?

I’m with WR on this one.

Eeb,
I've just received my copy of SS magazine but haven't read it yet. Yes it does seen very short sighted not to proof for steel shot of any kind, as it seems that it is inevitable in the future. Not that I could afford the gun, but it has to affect the sales audience for certain. My sidelock Browning SxS's as well as my Merkels can handle the future of nontox ammo, so I'm good to go.
My bet is that someone just had to be misinformed!
Karl

Interesting WR would go this route. However, if a customer requested steel shot proof, would they say no. One of many things I don’t need to worry about!

Ken

I really hate to see people accepting the silly idea that steel shot replacing lead ammo is inevitable.

I don't accept that any more than I believe that an end to the 2nd Amendment and the private ownership of firearms is inevitable. But it does take paying attention to the threats from the anti-gun and anti-hunting Liberal Left Democrats. It is no secret that's where virtually all of the threats to our gun rights come from.

It might just be smarter and better to volunteer to be a poll watcher than shopping for guns that are proofed for steel.... unless you are the type that just gives in to woke nonsense and insanity. The men who wrote the Bill of Rights into the Constitution weren't that type.

In some clubs in the US you can only shoot steel shot. Some clubs you can only shoot lead shot. So you would not be able to use their gun anyway at a lot of clubs. 🙄

There are clubs where Bi is NOT allowed but steel is? I'm wonder about that. Never heard of such a thing. I've heard of nontox ranges, but not only steel nontox ranges.

No one who pays 6 figures for a gun cares about the difference in price from steel to bismuth.

I can’t afford a 5 figure gun, never mind 6 figures and I don’t shoot steel out of anything.

Well, steel stinks. If you can afford a new make Westley, you can certainly manage quality non-tox. Why would this even be an issue at all? I don't shoot steel in any of my fine shotguns, proved or not.

My understanding is that the reluctance, by WR to proof for Steel lies in the belief that making barrels for steel shot can result in undesirable handling qualities . Quoting from their blog post last summer:

“It is the barrels that impart so much of that fabulous handling quality into the guns we love and shoot. We should look after them; and that means, for now at least, picking up the ‘phone and ordering a few slabs of bismuth in cartridges of the appropriate case length, swallowing the cost and getting on with enjoying our season.“

WR makes a good point. If you can afford their guns, then you can also afford more expensive nontoxic options than steel.

You are correct Larry.

Shooting a few hundred rounds of bismuth is an insignificant cost when shooting driven game on the estates that require no lead ammunition.
Modern copper plated bismuth cartridges are great ammunition.

I shot three days on driven grouse this fall, where non lead was required, doublegunning, shot about 500rounds,
Ammunition cost never once entered my mind.

It is an expensive endeavor, it has a high barrier to entry, you know all that before you start.

Westley Richard’s is one of the companies waiting for you when you decide to start.

I own a WR gun and although I’ve never shot driven grouse, I think I’d rather use my Perazzi MX8 sporting clays gun with Bismuth than my WR for that pursuit…..hmmm, no steel for my Perazzi either.

That would be the wrong tool for the job.

Near as I can tell, the best grouse shots are using dynamic guns with five and 15 construction, muzzle light,

There’s a reason grouse shooting shotguns evolved into what they became.

A target gun is too slow.

I have friends that go to England/Scotland often and shoot classic, if not real old SxS. They said the additional cost for non toxic shot, in the scheme of things is not enough to make them change guns.

A friend of mine shoots Grouse with a pair of Boss guns.

I told him that if he can afford to do that he can afford to feed them with Bismuth.

People can fantasize all they want, and convince themselves of the wrong answer.
Don’t project your imagination onto a different culture in a different country where they do things differently.

It’s no different than a person in Mexico stomping their feet and telling Americans how they should be doing things. You could be entirely convinced you are right, but in fact be dead wrong.

I don't know if this is the case with WR, but I've heard some shotgun designs are having trouble with the new special steel shot proofing for high-performance steel shot cartridges.

From here:
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/will-my-shotgun-be-safe-with-steel-shot-cartridges-25848/#:~:text=High%2Dperformance%20steel%20shot%20cartridges,fleur%20de%20lys%20proof%20mark.

High-performance steel vs standard steel
Guns who have shot the odd standard steel load (most guns ‘Nitro’ proved to at least 930 bar will comfortably handle standard steel loads) may fail to realise that the box of cartridges they have just purchased are in fact high performance steel.

The latter should only be fired through guns that have passed steel shot proof and have been proved to at least 1,320 bar.

OWD

To OWD's point, as I have read, seen, and heard, you only need the new steel proof mark to shoot "high-performance steel" loads. (Super fast, heavy payloads.) Most in proof standard Nitro proof guns can shoot "standard steel" loads from British and European cartridge makers with no ill effect. Read the article below on this subject from the proof houses. Exceptions are listed in the proof houses' article.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1106151/Proofing.pdf

So that WR gun can shoot standard steel without the new steel proof mark. But not high performance steel (super fast, heavy payloads).

Most pheasant and duck hunters in Britain can shoot British and European standard steel loads in that gun and kill birds. Watch some of the recent driven game videos by Johnny Carter on YouTube (TGS Outdoors) on this subject matter and see for yourself.

There is also a series of videos on TGS Outdoors where Johnny has been following a local duck hunter who shoots high performance steel loads through his standard nitro proof 12 bore Uggie. (Against the advice from the Proof Houses.) It has developed a slight bulge in one barrel, but no other failures so far after four years of regular use on shoreline. The guy still uses it as his primary duck/goose gun with high performance steel loads.

Personally I am not a fan of steel shot. When I shoot non-toxic I shoot factory bismuth or Tungsten Matrix shells in my Benellis and Berettas (mostly RIOs, Kents, and old Bismuth Company shells). And I still hand load bismuth for my older SxSs.

Here are the details spelling out the differences between 12 ga Standard steel shot loads vs High Performance:

Standard:
Diameter of shot no greater than 3.25 mm. Comparing to US shot sizes, US 4 shot would be too large at 3.3 mm. US 5 are 3.05 mm
Velocity measured at a point 2.5 meters from the muzzle cannot exceed approximately 1300 fps

High Performance: (Steel shot proof required)

Velocity at least 1400 fps

If shot diameter is greater than 4mm (British BB or larger), barrel must be less than half choke

Those are the CIP regulations.

Skyway Trap and Skeet Club in St. Petersburg, Florida. You shoot into a dirt backstop and you can only use the steel shot WHICH THEY SELL. They sell it, so that they make sure that you only shoot steel shot. The puller walks along with you and tells you when you can shoot, so they can make sure you don't shoot over the backstop into the lake behind it. They take your driver's license and Xerox it and if you ever shoot over the backstop, you will be banned. They have had numerous, frivolous lawsuits about people shooting into a wildlife area behind the backstop, which have never been won. But they still are extremely strict about people shooting there. Plus the ammo costs about $10.00 a box. It was only about three miles from where I stay, but it got to be such a hassle that I started driving 40 miles up to the Silver Dollar Shooting Club, last year, in Odessa, where they only allow lead and you can shoot your own reloads. It is a lot nicer Club anyway- where they have the Florida State Trap Shoot each year.


Call them and ask them about the junk you have to do to shoot there. The first time I went there, I had to sit and watch a 20 minute movie on Florida wildlife and I was informed that if I ever shot into the lake behind the backstop, I would never be permitted to come back. And they check your driver's license every time you go to see if you have been banned in the past. I have not been there in a couple years, but I got so fed up with the hassle it was time to go somewhere else.

Jimmy,

The Skyway Trap and Skeet Club sounds a bit off-putting. If they have the trap machines and have a puller come along with you then they should have set the presentation of the clays so the carry over shot lands in safe zones. How is it that people shoot over the backstop?

Because it is a little too close and not high enough, I guess. Plus you get some bad shooters. I never had a problem. But I am a little more experienced than a lot of the people who shoot there. And like I said, the dozen or so lawsuits were frivolous from what I heard. And they told me, no one ever proved anything against the club. But they only have those rules to make sure, I guess. 🤪

Diggory made me a Best gun recently and part of the discussion was how I wanted the barrels proofed. If I went with the Fleur-de-lis proof for high performance steel, the barrel dynamics would change and become sluggish. I decided to
go with the barrels proofed for lead/standard non high performance steel. WR decision makes a lot of sense.

Diggory made you a best gun? Diggory is a gunmaker nowadays?

Check out his website, or his facebook posts, it explains everything.

Diggory recently posted a picture of a gun he completed for a client. Was it yours? Congratulations

He posted 2, the J.D. Stettler & Son is mine.

What a gun. Enjoy

IM;

That is indeed a beautiful gun.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Your Stettler and son gun is beautiful nice engraving.

This is the SS article on the new WR O/U. It’s now on the Explora site.


WR OU

Ken

I saw the photos and wondered who ordered it…shoot it in good health! Great decision to not proof for superior steel in harm the dynamics of the gun.

No. Currently the alloy is steel and tungsten. Tungsten is denser and harder than steel. Steel has three times less rigidity than tungsten. Gil

Is it me!! Or is Westly Richards think rather a lot of themselves. Have I got this right they want customers to pay a four figure plus sum for a gun that will not handle steel, who the hell do they think they are the one and only Gods gift to the shooting man! Other high finish makers can produce barrels that are proofed for steel. If a gun maker wanted to charge me a four figure plus for a gun I would want it to be able to cope with steel shot to Camel dropping's and every stop in between. And if that is going to be their sales policy they can stick their gun up in a place where the sun dont shine, I am sure that I will be alone in thinking this so lets see how long this idiotic sales tactic lasts.
Ernie. The sometimes cantankerous old git who knows when someone is trying hard extracting the piss.

Damascus. I agree.

I don't understand why a gun that's proofed for high-performance steel shot can't have lively, dynamic bbls.

Can someone explain?

OWD

As the engineers say, “There is no free lunch”.

Steel shot, particularly in the larger sizes, brings its own unique complications to any given loading. It is not lead, and under the forces of higher velocity loadings, is more apt to “bridge”, or, act as a solid than lead shot will. The forces involved dictate heavier barrels and choke tubes to resist damage from these loads. There needs to be a margin of extra resistance to the forces high performance steel would bring, which is simply a bridge too far for dynamic handling characteristics. More barrel steel, results in less lively feel.

Lead, and bismuth loadings, at lower velocity, do not stress the barrels to the extent that high performance steel loads do.

To ask conventional, dynamic handling barrels to do the work that would be required of barrels that would be resistant to the forces of high performance steel loads would be asking for a free lunch.

Best,
Ted

Ah. Ok. Thank you.

OWD

That’s my point and why I posed the original question. I’d like to see if Rocketman could quantify the difference between barrels proofed for steel and barrels not proofed for steel, like these WR barrels. It seems for six figures they could work it out.