Hello all,
I have a few antique Gasser revolvers (made before 1899) in storage with a friend in PA-USA and he would like to send them over to me to Europe. He asked me how to do it best so I ask here for your experience.
What service to use? US Mail? A commercial courir service, which one? How to declare the antique guns to avoid any complications, from the US side? Any other hints. I will have to get import papers here in Europe but this part I am familiar with. Thanks.
Cheers,
Jani

There may be different rules for long guns vs. handguns. However, non FFL holders in the US can't use the mail but must use a commercial common carrier to ship handguns to a US FFL holder. I'll leave it up to others who may be country specific. You would also have the EU Rules to contend with. Bear in mind that packages are often x-rayed. Here are two pistol shaped bootjacks I bought out of France. Note the packaging as it was when I received them. If I were you, I'd check with a firearms importer in Slovenia. I assume US made Colts and Glocks find their way to Slovenia above board. Gil

Jani, could I suggest you call or email ATF. They are very easy to deal with and you'll get your information straight from the horse's mouth. I called them from Afghanistan once when I was sending some Martini-Henry's back to the USA via APO.

https://www.atf.gov/contact

The ATF is the wrong place to go for this. I went down this road a long way with them because most of the really don't know. The State Department is the correct place for information. If you are unsure, email one of your state's senators. They can be sure helpful, and they (their people) know their stuff.

Rules for shipping parts and guns and barrels on particular, are pretty simple but easy to get wrong. BATF is domestic only.

Brent, you have a lot of experience but that was not my impression of ATF. Sometime around 2009 A general in Afghanistan without much to do ruled that all center-fire antique guns being sent to the USA via APO had to get pre ATF approval. This included Sniders and Martini-Henry. I found a very knowledgeable guy at ATF importation branch who explained all the rules to me. He forwarded the forms. I filled them out and got them back a month later. Mind, these were US import regulations. But if there are US laws pertaining to export as well, I would expect them to know. Gene

ATF has an import regulation branch but no export. I submitted an e-mail question to them on Jani's behalf:

to: imports@atf.gov

Exporting antique (pre 1898) hand gun collection to Europe:

Sirs: I am asking this question for a European friend. He has several pre 1898 antique pistols, mostly percussion, stored with an FFL gun dealer in the USA. He would like to export these to the European Union. He can handle the EU importation paperwork from that side of the Atlantic. However, are there any US laws that need to be addressed before export? Thanks

Maybe so, but your experience is an American (and American organization), sending a gun back to America. Sending a gun to a foreign land (and NOT an American military instillation), is nothing like sending a gun or part your English friend, Harry, which is what I was trying to do. THAT is State Department all the way. The rules as I recall, are that you can send parts under $100 value, but NOT barrels of any value, nor complete guns. And that's just from the American end of the transaction. What is required on the other end - is yet another thing, but I never got to that because USA law said I could not send a barrel, period. You might notice that many dealers will no longer sell barrels or liners to any out of country address any longer. That started maybe 5-10 yrs ago, due to these restrictions.

I imagine that generals can autocratically declare a lot of rules, and the military has to abide by them, but the OP did not invoke the military in his question. Also, this is outbound, not inbound.

Call a senator's office or peruse the State Department website and find the correct office. Once I did that, it was all crystal clear in just a minute or two.

Thanks Brent. I know my experience was with importation and this was made clear in my email to ATF. We'll see what they say. We are talking antiques. I'll try to get something in print for Jani.

From the ATF website:

Firearms

Please select what you would like to do:
Report Federal Firearms Licensee Theft or Loss of Firearms
Submit a Firearms Regulatory Question(link sends e-mail)
Submit a Firearms and Explosives Import Question or Concern(link sends e-mail)
Submit a Firearms and Explosives Licensing Question or Concern(link sends e-mail)
Submit a National Firearms Act Question(link sends e-mail)

I just flipped through the State Dept. website but didn't find an obvious office to call. My contact with my Senator's office gave me an office and number at the time so I simply dialed it. Hunting for the right cubical at State is rather like searching for that proverbial needle in a landfill. Federal politicians have fleets of staff that answer these types of arcane questions. Make them earn your money

BTW, i called 5-6 BATF agents in three different regional offices, and none of them were sure, and they could not figure out why they could not find a definitive answer until finally a guy in the Carolinas fessed up and said - "it ain't our call". But he wasn't sure whose it was - that's when I got the idea of putting a senator's bloodhound on it. Took about 12 hrs.

If US citizens cannot export commercial firearms abroad, that certainly would kill off a market for US gunmakers and for US auction houses; thus, one is inclined to believe there are ways to do this.

This site from the US Customs and Border Patrol is interesting:
https://help.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-388?language=en_US

A DSP-5 export license is required for the permanent export of firearms and ammunition unless an exemption applies. For a one-time exception request, send a letter to the address listed below:

Postal Mailing Address:

PM/DDTC, SA-1, 12th Floor
Directorate of Defense Trade Controls
Bureau of Political-Military Affairs
U.S. Department of State
Washington, DC 20522-0112

or

Express Mailing Address and Courier Delivery Service:

U.S. Department of State
PM/DDTC, SA‑1, 12th Floor
2401 E Street, NW
Washington, DC 20037

For more information about export license exceptions, restrictions on the export of a shotgun, shotgun parts and shotgun ammunition from the United States, please contact the BIS or call them at 202-482-4811.

For all general inquiries, contact the DDTC Response Team at 202-663-1282, FAX 202-663-8199, or email to PM-DDTC-RESPONSE-TEAM-DL@state.gov.

For further information and electronic application support, contact the D-Trade Help Desk at 202-663-2838 or email to dtradehelpdesk@state.gov.

Now waiting to see what ATF recommends. On behalf of Jani, I'll call BIS tomorrow for information...202 is a local area call.

Looks like you're going down the right path now. They will make sure you don't start WW III.

Thanks so far.
Some years ago I bought an antique (pre 1899) revolver on GB and the seller sent it to me to Slovenia with no problems. Of course the Slovenian Customs Service held the parcel but when I presented my import gun papers and paid the duty, I received the gun.
Unfortunately, my PC crashed recently and I can't see the old emails for the details (mode of shipping,etc-) and my memory faded, and that is why I am asking here ---

Cheers,
Jani

Jani, I got hold of State Department PM/DDTC. Wrong office but they referred me to the "response team"

ddtccustomerservice@state.gov

They sent this email. They have opened a case number even though I only wanted information. I will soon get another email or call and hopefully can then obtain enough information to walk you through the process. (I think they thought I wanted to send Stinger shoulder fired AA missiles to Iran or something.)



I intend to send a short message back to them so they can have the info ready to pass. This is the message I'll be sending. If it is wrong send me a PM. Thanks.

Sirs, A friend in Slovenia has a small collection of early-mid 19th century pistols he bought at auction which are currently stored by an FFL dealer in New Jersey.  He would like to send the collection to Europe.  He can handle the EU import regulations and paperwork.  However, he would like to know what regulations he needs to fulfill in the US to accomplish this export. He is a private individual and does not represent a company.

I do not have the details on his pistols yet but believe they are single-shot flintlocks and percussion guns.

Could you please provide a outline on how he should go about meeting US regulations for exporting this collection.

Many years ago I did a few exports on handguns

It does have to go through the dept of state

And back then I believe the form was the same as now Dps 5

Forget about ATF. They are not involved in exports

The items I exported were not antiques but more modern guns

I think one of the problems you will have is a carrier who will accept shipment


John Boyd
Quality Arms

I think you will spend a lot of time on this and get nowhere

Unless these really mean something close to him.

Probably he should think on having you sell them for him and send you the money


John Boyd

John, I'm just doing Jani a favor since I now have some time on my hands here in the DC area. Not interested in buying antique pistols. I'll find out the process and he can handle it. State Department got back and said to contact the ATF on import regulations. Talk about not having reading comprehension!

Here is the reply from State. If anyone an interpret this gobble-de-gook, please help:

How old are the pistols, if they fit in the category described below please contact the Department of Commerce, Bureau of Industry and Security to assist you further at ECDOEXS@bis.doc.gov or 202-482-4811

ITAR USML 121 - Category II - Guns and Armament Note 1 to paragraph (a):

This paragraph does not include: Non-automatic and non-semi-automatic rifles, carbines, and pistols between .50 (12.7 mm) and .72 caliber (18.288 mm) that are controlled on the CCL under ECCN 0A501; shotguns controlled on the CCL under ECCN 0A502; black powder guns and armaments manufactured between 1890 and 1919 controlled on the CCL under ECCN 0A602; or black powder guns and armaments manufactured earlier than 1890.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-22/chapter-I/subchapter-M/part-121

Easy enough to understand.

John Boyd

Well, I sent a note back asking for steps to take if these guns are not flamethrowers, fully automatic machine guns, artillery pieces, mortars, starlight scopes, light-sabers, ray-guns, or if they are not munitions which can be used in such guns. I.e. what forms need to be filled out and who needs to chop on them.

By the way the first time they replied they told me to contact ATF re "imports." They didn't even read the e-mail.

That's why I used the phone, even though I despise communcating by phones ordinarily.

I want to start off by stating that I HAVE NOT exported anything. I have been importing my own firearms however and it really isn't that difficult. The hardest part is getting good information and the agencies that are in charge often don't even know their own rules. On top of that there is a lot of bad information that is given by people trying to help. I may just do that now (but I don't think I am). I'm mostly writing this as I hate to see people not do things because they think it's too difficult. I hear that often in regards to importing and it really isn't.

The State Dept. covers ITAR and the firearms in question are not covered by ITAR.

ATF does not handle exports. They have always been great to deal with however when importing and once called/emailed me a half dozen times when approving a form 6 to get additional info and ask questions rather than denying it like many other agencies would have done. Nothing but good to say about them.

I believe most items people (on this forum) would want to export would be covered under ECCN 0A501 or 0A502. Both under the Department of Commerce, Bureau of Industry and Security. It appears to me that they would need and export permit and it looks like anybody can apply for one for free under the online SNAP-R account system.
The word antique is NOT standardized. Not in this country and certainly not internationally. For firearms export purposes it appears to be pre-1890 not pre-1899 like it is for import. If the pistols that Montenegrin wants to export are pre-1890 then they fall under EAR99 and do not appear to require an export permit.

Shipping is likely going to be your biggest hurdle and certainly the most costly. They will most likely have to go air freight and that isn't cheap.
I have no idea what the EU import process is but you mentioned you are familiar with it. If it's allowed the easiest way is probably to fly to the US for a vacation and fly back with them, declaring them (with the previously acquired paperwork) upon your arrival to your home country. This may not be allowed but it would likely be only a bit more money than the shipping and you get a trip out of it.

I don't have any more info on this than what I posted and it may not be 100% correct, but hopefully it gets you on the right path.

I'm having trouble following this bare with me I'm from the great state of Mississippi....

You live in a foreign country and you have antique revolvers in storage in Pennesylvania.

If you don't mind how did you get them in storage in Pennesylvania ?

He wanted to keep them away from his children ,jOE

So he sent the pistols to the USA ?