I have a friend who recentley took up shooting,He has never been exposed to the sporting life(hunting and fishing).
He is an exceptional shot shooting for only 15 months he did very well at the nationals NSCA in Texas,
I gave him a side by side which he shoots and now wants to build a collection/investment grade guns.
Budget of about 100K,He has SO4,SO6 and a few other similar guns.He wants good side x sides
I would like to give him good advise and not get fleeced in the process,he has allready been burned on one gun,and wants to avoid this situation in the furure.
Thnaks
Hampton

hampton - there are two basic approaches to buying guns (or most anything else). One, spend the time to learn enough to know a fair price when you see it. Second, develop a relationship with someone who has spent the time.

For the first approach, leave the wallet home (better yet, make a two year investment) for two years. Read ten books on the gun trade. Visit ten large, specialistit high grade gun dealers. Attend the Las Vegas January show and the Vintage Cup twice. Take a fitting lesson in the USA. Strongly suggested - take a "gun" trip to UK where you visit a big auction, most gunmaker's shops, and take a lesson at one of the shooting grounds.

Or, pick a dealer (hopefully within commuting range), explain what you want for your first gun, become very patient. Be willing to say "No" if your gut says , "No."

Tips: You are much more likely to make a bad deal on an impulsive buy that you are to find a bargain. Decide what you want next, write it down in detail, and review detail before buying. Most likely, there will be no final and "only one more" gun; your tastes and/or needs will change with time and exposure to different guns. Dealers stay in business only because they make money. To make money, the dealer must buy for less than he sells for. If you object to paying for a dealer's expertise, you will have to learn to deal privately on your own.

To start with, the budget owner needs to decide on any country of production restrictions, brand name interest, currnt condition minimums or new only, quality grades to be considered ("A" or "B" grades considered, house best only, extra finish, etc.), new bespoke or "experienced," purpose of the gun (investment, safe queen, clays, upland, live bird, water fowl, historical interest, provenance, etc.), and collection or shooting battery.

Do the above, write it down, review all writing before spending money, and wait a week before any individual purchase. That will be a good start. Hook up with the Carolinas Vintagers in Charlotte for lots of discussion on SxS guns of all description.

Excellent advice from Rocketman.

I would just add that it is fun and cheap to buy wrecks or apparent wrecks for very little money and take them to bits - this way you learn a lot about how the guns work - and signs of quality and condition imprint themselves on your brain.

Sometimes those wrecks can be surprisingly resurrected!

No dealer or seller of fine guns will take the place of a mentor and advisor. There are also good and bad in mentors and advisors. In some ways I envy the problem, but in other ways I am content being poor but confident in my previous selections. The longer we do this, the happier we are with our last purchase. Murphy

The big bang for the bucks are the American classics, high grade - high original condition.
Right on the heels are the London sidelock ejectors, high original condition here too!
Forget the Euros, they are a bad investment and bad blood.

That $100K scares me. Murphy and Rocketman have provided the best advice I can think of. I've provided the same advice to those smitten with flying and want to buy a plane. Many go out and buy what they don't need---because they have the money in their pockets. Hampton, tell your friend to lock up solidly his money for a couple years, read, read, read, participate in this forum, hang out with those who know their stuff and not let others do his thinking for him.

Thorny,
You are generalizing. It sounds as if our hero is actually interested in shooting the gun first, rather than simple speculation. Hence, to deny a whole segment of gunmaking is a bit foolish, in this case. Rest assured, there are German, Italian, Belgian, French and Spanish makers who can build the equal of anything built today in England. The reason it won't sell for as much is it won't cost as much to begin with.

As to the Americana pieces, actually shooting and hunting them isn't all it is cracked up to be. 100 year old stuff has it's limitations, and ignoring that will cost as much or more than the "right" shooter would have in the first place.

Lebeau Courally, Hartmann & Weiss, G. Granger, Fabbri, there are others, and it's all good.
Best,
Ted

Some here will think that I am kidding but 100K , while it is a lot of money, will not buy you much of a investment grade collection. Very few or maybe three max. if you start with the big three from G.B.. High grade Parkers would quickly take the whole 100K fast if they are in real high grade and high condition.

I think that guns are one of the poorer investment for an investment sake. Stocks, bonds, real estate are far better in holding or gaining value over time.

Mint or high grade guns are like virgins. They cost a lot because they are rare, but if you screw around with them or just use them, they quickly loose their value. Hard to buy guns and not want to use them unless they are not what you want to shoot in the first place.

So I would suggest that he stick to a theme collection. Maybe all small bore Parkers, Fox, Smiths, LeFevers, Lidners or the like. Focous on a very limited collection of mid priced guns and it will look impresive and be a real challenge to collect. Buy a few that he will shoot and others that will remain virgins.

I also think that mid level gun prices will have more of a chance to go up than top level grade guns prices. Also the chance of being burned on a high dollor gun is greater than being burned on several mid level price guns for the same amount of money.

Why is he wanting the collection?

Is his main goal to have something to talk about and show off to others?

Is his goal to make an investment (I'm with KY Jon on this one, put your money somewhere else.)

Is his main goal to have something to do - looking for and learning about guns can be fun?

His reasons for wanting a collection will in part determine how he should go about aquiring it.

If he just wants a collection the simplest may be to just buy someone else's collection.

I also agree with KY Jon that if he is talking truly best guns his $100k will only go so far. Maybe a nice pair if he buys right.

With 100K, I'd be starting with a David McKay Brown sxs, and then go from there.
Not all the big fours have to come from Lewis Drake, try some of the more budget minded shops.
Ted, all you have to do is look at the bespoke Spanish guns - these pre-enjoyed beauties pop-up on the market at a real loss to the first time owners. Good shooters, bad investment.

There is a cornucopia of fine guns out there. BV1(Boss, H&H, Purdey, and Woodward)-OQ1(best grade SLE, but not extra finish)-CC1(pristine/best of 50) = $40,000 USA retail for a 12 gauge SXS of 1890ish to 1960ish vintage. BV2 is 3/4 this amount, BV3 is 1/2, and BV4 is 1/4. You can cut the price 2/3 to 3/4 by easing back on the Current Condition level. And, there are some very nice guns in "A" and "B" grades, also.

Above said, $100K will buy 3 to 5 very nice older guns. Or, the whole wad could easily be spent on one modern bespoke gun. A modern bespoke BLE, even a pair, could leave a good deal of wiggle room for future purchases. There are far too many ways to approach this to nail down one as "The" way.

Thanks for all the information,I was just learning about guns in the 70's and a good friend and mentor said you will have to handle at least $50,000 buying/selling/getting screwed in guns before you know anything.
I dont know what that would be in todays money but.What I have found is deal with reputable dealers.This guy just might want the fast track to learning.
Again Thanks for the input
Hampton

Thorny,
Order yourself a new Boss, or Purdey, sit on your ass waiting for a few years until it gets here, enjoy it for a season or three, and tell us all what you can sell it for.

Hint-It WON'T be anywhere near what you paid. So why the carping on the Spaniards?

Best,
Ted

Thorny,

All "shooters" are bad investments when you compare them to unfired or higher condition. Few investments are worse than gun when you use them. Maybe a vintage car driven to work every day is worse but not by much.

Spanish guns are a decent value if you stop and add in the increasing prices for new verse when the gun was bought. You will always loose if you sell very soon after the purchase. But shoot it, take care of it and keep it for several years and even those Spanish gun get to be at least a break even propisition.

British guns are no great value if you buy them new and sell them in a short time. Now if you hold onto them for 100 years then a 30 pound gun is worth about $1,500.00. But had it been sold the year after it was purchased and you might have lost 20-30% of your purchase price. Same then and a same now.

Selling land!
The first real non-restricted hunting land one hour from a metro area of 2.5 million land starved people.
Is the thing.
Forget 401s, stock options, the market and gold.
I bring up the Spanish guns Ted, because it has been posted about for years - and never a good deal for the seller.
Good American and Brit guns/rifles hold their own, but I've no head for business - just another pretty face.

Well, Thorny, I'm curious, because it is one thing to buy a Spanish gun (or, a Brit for that matter) and lock it away, and expect, for some reason, it to be worth more than what you paid in a few business quarters. I've always felt that was unrealistic.

But, the very, very great majority of us don't do that. We buy them to use. And a sad fact of life is we only get so much time to use them. Hence, I've always made it a point to separate the idea of a gun, and an investment. Sometimes we get a pleasant surprise, but, in my case, that has always been tempered by the fact that the time it took to get that surprise was time I was never going to get back.

Larry Brown is a great one for pointing up what a great deal used guns are (and you, by the way.) And they can be a great deal, just like a used car, IF you accept that the thing wasn't built for you, to meet your needs. Hence, it will never be quite exactly what you would have ordered. There may be exceptions, but, the sheer volume of used good guns out there leads me to believe otherwise.

I like to believe that the British liason that was going to spend a few years in India, or the French rubber plantation owner in Viet Nam didn't concern themselves with what the return factor was going to be on the guns they bought themselves to use during the free time they had on their assignments. Maybe they thought about it, but it sure doesn't matter today.

If I was to be offered the time back it took for a few of my motley collection of guns to be worth more than I paid, I promise you, I'd take the time and not the money. If you are honest, you will admit the same.

So, buy a gun. Spend enough time and money to make it exactly what you want and need, so you don't have to do it again. And then, use it every single chance you get. Travel with it, enjoy it, and do the very best you can to wear it out. Because nobody will be thinking about how much their gun is worth on their deathbed.

Not even you, Thorny.
Best,
Ted

Ten years ago you could buy a H&H Royal 12 ga in excellent shape for GBP5000. Today you can sell that gun for twice that sum of money and you will have had plenty of pleasure along the way. What makes that a lousy investment?

This doesn't require that you steal the gun. Just pay the going rate for a quality gun and you won't get hurt. And avoid buying a lemon by spending $100 to get a knowledgeable technical person to look at it.

There's also an opportunity to create instant equity if you buy smart. But this requires a few years' experience, esp. if you get off the beaten track a little. You don't find this kind of gun on a knowledgeable dealer's rack. You may need to go overseas to find them.

I suspect that our buyer thinks he can get into the latter category of purchase. He can only do that if he has a consultant who is willing to do a lot of looking around and be on call, for not much money.

He is probably going to need two advisors: a gunsmith to do technical evaluations, and a consultant to advise him on pricing. In my experience, good gunsmiths aren't that current on pricing.

Forget buying new. No matter who the maker, you can't make a return buying new doubles. They cost a lot more to build than they fetch in the secondary market.

My advice to this guy would be to pool his money with a similarly-minded but more experienced buyer, and then to buy whole estates or collections together. Then sell the guns off over time, keeping one or two each that fit/appeal. The keepers will probably be "free" unless you really screw up.

Ted, after the sale I put the bill away, and never think about it again. No matter how much, or how little.
...and they've been pretty little these days.
I'll wear these things out, about the time I wear out and not before - there are plenty of birds/game left in these legs.
When the fire does go out, I wouldn't mind one last look and know I've kept them up.