Hello everyone, I’m a new member, and I’ve recently just picked up a vintage Wm. Moore & Grey at a local rural gun shop. I don’t have a ton of expertise with doubles (my first gun as a boy, which I still have and now my son shoots, was a .410 Boito Brazilian SxS, marked “Kmart” on the barrel, but I suppose that hardly counts, lol.), and I couldn’t really determine a value for the Moore, I just couldn’t pass it up.

It was the first English double I had actually seen in person and handled, though from boyhood I have admired them in magazines, etc., and the lines/aesthetics appeal strongly to me. I build a few flintlock longrifles, so I especially appreciated the hand engraving and unbelievable wood/metal fit (especially in the forearm, it looks like the metal was melted and poured into the mortise...). The gun has obviously seen a lot of use, but I was most interested in it as a hunter, anyway.

So, I offloaded a plastic-stocked .308 I didn’t need anymore, added some cash, and took the Wm. Moore & Grey home.

According to my research, this gun was made between 1904 and 1917. It has the Craven St., London address on the rib. It has London proof marks, but also a later (post-1954) Birmingham proof. I assume therefore it was reproofed. I can’t make out the letter in the crossed-swords Birmingham date code. It is nitro proofed for 2-1/2”, 1-1/8 oz, 3 ton. Only the left barrel was marked “Choke.” Based purely on measuring the muzzle diameter vs. the bore diameter proof marks, I think it’s choked roughly IC/Mod. Barrels are 29-7/8”.

It locks up the tight as a drum, and the solder appears to be good (the barrels ring like a bell when flicked). It does fire/function fine.

But, there are several scuffs/dings, especially in the buttstock, most or all of which are filled by a coat of finish. All of the screw heads have been marred, and there is some erosion around the striker holes. I was told that the barrels looked like they had been reblacked, but I do not know what to look for to confirm this. The trigger guard tang has a fingernail joint in it (which is unbelievably well-fit), which leads me to believe that it perhaps may have been broken at one time, and so perhaps this isn’t the original buttstock.

More importantly, it fits me like a glove and points like my index finger.

Now for my questions, for those who have hung in this long...

Does my research seem correct?

And, of course, what is it worth? And I mean very approximately.

I was feeling very good about the purchase, until I took it to a dealer with some alleged expertise for an appraisal. He contradicted some of my research, and said that given the condition, it was worth about $450.

I’m trying to tell myself that even if he is correct it doesn’t matter because I am happy with the gun for my own use, and it was a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity for a piece of functional art that had a soul and story. But, I would feel better if I knew it was worth at least somewhat more than that.

I will attempt to post some pics in the comments.

Thanks!
Jonathan

It is hard for us to say much about it without pictures of the gun...Geo

Welcome to the doublegunshop forum.

Remember, John- when you have a dealer "appraise" your used gun, they will usually give you a "lo-ball" price, as they tend to be greedy and want to be able to buy it from you at a deep discount- such is the gun biz- "welcome to 'the big league' of gun trading.

Old bit of wisdom- if you want to determine the true value of an item, ask three different and un-related men who have zero interest in buying it from you. RWTF

I will hopefully get the pics uploaded a bit later today; I have bandwidth issues right now.

Thanks!

Jonathan,
Welcome to the double gun brotherhood!
Karl

Your first English gun. I say that as I suspect it may not be your last. Wm. Moore & Grey good makers with lots of information to go on. You don't mention what type; boxlock or sidelock, ejector or non-ejector as these will affect value as will condition engraving etc. As others ay it is difficult without a photo which you say you may be able to show soon. I won't try to access value as British values and U.S. values can be very different. Use it and enjoy it. Lagopus…..

this gun sounds like a great place to start with English sxs. If it locks up soundley and the barrels aren't too thin, it will be fine for upland hunting but you should be using low pressure loads in 2 1/2" length if at all possible. For a newbie to doubles your research seems pretty well based.
Keep in mind the doubles market is fairly thin and many dealers don't even deal in them, so their valuations are way off. The pitting around the striker holes and reproofing might indicate it started life as a blackpowder proofed gun.

There are always several "values" to a gun.
Wholesale to a dealer, retail in gun shows, retail in a specialist's stock.
Then there is the value to you - fits right, shoot it well, fell in love and had to have it.
Don't let naysayers take away from your enjoyment.

https://ibb.co/0jGF07V
https://ibb.co/PtjvPR6
https://ibb.co/sycy85B
https://ibb.co/dkRd8by
https://ibb.co/qMhxP37
https://ibb.co/hVzG49F

I have some more, including proof marks, close ups of defects, etc., that I’ll post later today. I’ll also mess around until I figure out how to properly post pics a bit later.

[img]https://ibb.co/52KbPQb[/img]

Beautiful gun. It is worth a good bit more than $450. Quite a bit more.

Very good-looking gun, from a well-respected maker. Happy hunting!

I can’t comment on US values, but up here a good British boxlock can usually fetch $1200-2000. The estimate you were given seems awfully low.

That was a low ball value. But you need to understand many dealers are lost once you leave their area of interest. A dealer in rifles and handguns may have almost no real knowledge in doubles in general and British doubles at all. So when asked they pull a number out of their....well you know where. Two real numbers in life. What would they give you cash and what would they charge you if they owned it. That’s why so many of us watch auction sales to see what real number guns are bringing. Right now many doubles are very soft but quality always sells.

You need to order some RST ammo and enjoy that gun. Use proper ammo, not too heavy factory American ammo. It looks like it should be a real pleasure to shoot.

Looks like a pretty nice $450 gun to me...Geo

Yeah, I know how gun dealers work, I’ve traded and bought/sold a lot over the years and have tended to avoid them when possible.

This particular dealer has a brick-and-mortar store and a significant presence online; they specialize in “classic” arms and have some pretty neat stuff in their store (including some L.C. Smiths). I talked to one friendly fellow there when I was in the area a few weeks ago who seemed very knowledgeable about my gun, and from looking at the pics I had at the time estimated a value of as much as $2500-$3500. I thought that was way too high, and some of the defects in the gun didn’t show in those pics.

So, I took the gun back to that shop this week. That fellow wasn’t there, but another guy looked at it, contradicted my research as to its vintage, talked about all of the defects, dismissed the gunmaker, and gave me a value of $450. The guys there the second time were not as friendly; perhaps I smelled bad or something.

They also made a laughably low offer on two pistols I had for sale/trade. Laughably low even for a dealer; they offered me $450 for the pair, and I immediately went across town to a different dealer and got $750.

Honestly, I thought when I bought the Moore&Grey that the value was probably in the $1000-$1500 arena.

Am I correct that this gun was made between 1904-1917?

After the original proof, both bores have been enlarged by around.010". This would have been prior to the reproof, so if they still measure the .719 & .729 respectfully they would still be in proof.

The British 3-ton proof is equivalent to about a 9,000 PSI as measured by Piezo Electric crystals, not LUP. US shells are loaded to SAAMI Specs which can go up to 10,500 PSI in 12 gauge, thus the warning about off the shelf US shells. Nice looking gun & appears in reasonable condition. Treat it nice & it will give you many years of enjoyment. Certainly that $450.00 is not even in the Ball Park.

I would have to dig out my proof books to be positive, but pretty certain the original proof was under the 1904 act, just not sure of the ending date on it.

So what is the ballpark?

For dating, I was going by some info on the history of Wm. Moore, etc. that I had found on this forum. Based on the address and trade name, 1904-1917 were the dates I came up with.

I'm probably wrong, but it never kept me from embarrassing myself



"Choke" indicates muzzle constriction > .008"

The chamber length (2 1/2"), shot charge (1 1/8 oz.) and 12 over C in the diamond are 1925-1954.
1925 - 1954 the 2 1/2” & 2 5/8” 12g maximum service load was reduced to 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/4 tons by LUP = 9,800 psi by Burrard’s conversion.

'3 tons per sq. inch maximum' and 12 in a diamond indicate 1954-1989.
As Miller said, under the 1954 Rules of Proof “Highest Mean Service Pressure” equivalent transducer values as converted from LUP by Burrard’s formula: 3 tons = 8,960 psi = 618 BAR

The original R bore (13) was .710"-.718" and when reproved was .729"
The original L bore (14/1) was .701" - .709", and when reproved was .719"

interesting way of stamping "PSI"

I still can’t manage to figure out how to properly post pics, all the pic hosting services I’ve tried provide https not http links, so that may be the problem.

Nevertheless, here are some more pics, some of which show the defects/wear/marred screw heads, etc. a little more clearly:

[img]https://ibb.co/q5yPLYs https://ibb.co/zGSyQ1R https://ibb.co/64JMpFF https://ibb.co/ccD2mbJ https://ibb.co/VvR6R9S https://ibb.co/7JwxCBF https://ibb.co/86Ydhvs https://ibb.co/Hg0yWfj[/img]

According to a post on shotgunworld by user RPRNY, “In 1896 the firm moved to 165 Piccadilly and in 1902 to 8 Craven Street, Strand.

In 1908 Cogswell & Harrison took over the firm, and Robert yGrey joined them. This was probably when the Aldershot branch closed.

In 1917 Cogswell & Harrison moved the company to their own premises at 226 Strand and William Moore & Grey ceased to trade under their own name.”

I could swear that the above info had also been posted on this forum, but I couldn’t find it just now.

That’s what lead me to the 1917 date at the latest, given the Craven St. address on rib.

The picture put up by jstamper of the proof marks does not show a chamber length in the original London proofs. Thus this proof does indeed date back to 1904-1925. In 1925 the chamber length was added, otherwise, the same marks were used.

JS;
As you are setting the cut-off date on the makers address the dates of 1904-1917 may well indeed be correct. Going only by the proofs it would be 1904-1925 which includes your dates.

Very nice!

The way I read it is that the words Max or Maximum were only used between 1896 and 1904. It was originally nitro proofed then and later re-proofed between 1954 and 1984 as the marks are Imperial. Looking at the re-proof date code it looks like the letter V and B which would indicate re-proof in 1970. Well, that's how I read it. At $450 it looks like a good price with what I know of U.S. prices. Here in the U.K. it would fetch around £450 to £550 so a good buy either way. I doubt if Moore & Grey actually made it but rather more likely bought in a barrelled action from the Birmingham trade and finished it. Common practice here and even Purdey's did that at times. Striker hole pitting is more a result of use of early corrosive primers than black powder usage. Good find. Enjoy shooting it. Lagopus…..

lagopus, I think your reading of Max is correct. 1896-1904 The Internet Gun Club suggests the guns in that period were made for Moore and Grey by Cogswell and Harrison.

Just post them, one at a time between the [img][/img] codes

Yes, I believe the thought on Maximum is indeed correct. That was the one thing I failed to pick up on. Beginning in 1904 it read 1 1/8 oz Shot rather than Max. It is definitely not post 1925 but a bit earlier than JS had thought.

Hey Jonathan. do not read that as any loss of quality on your gun.

O.M

Thanks, I was wondering about that...

Would not the London proof marks indicate that this is not the case? I’m not disputing, just trying to learn.

I’m still somewhat unclear as to a ballpark value, it seems the consensus is that it is greater than $450, but I’d like to get a little better idea, just for my own peace of mind.

So, what are we talking about here? $750? $1000? $1500?

I have no intention of selling it at this time, but the value question may affect whether or not I refinish it.

I'd put it in the $1500 range. I'm not an expert, but I think you would be able to get low-mid teens for it. Or maybe I should say, if I were looking for something in that class, I would be willing to pay somewhere in that range for it.

Not necessarily. London proof could very easily have been requested as part of the deal. To my knowledge, there was no law specifying which proof house had to be used. Many felt the London proof gave a gun more Prestige.

Very nice gun, nicer than I was imagining from your description. It doesn’t seem to need anything, after being deemed safe by a gunsmith, other than a steady supply of 2 1/2 shells from RST. Shoot it well and enjoy!

I am planning to list this gun for sale as I simply do not hunt with it often, and I am trying to put so funds together for a skiff, something that my fish-obsessed son and I will actually use.

So…is the market price for a gun like this similar to what it was 2.5 years ago, or have prices gone up a bit like most things?

Thanks!
Jonathan

Sadly prices have gone south for most S/S's.
That is not to say that you can't find a buyer who will pay good money: it is just a matter of supply and demand. There are a lot of English S/S boxlocks out there needing a new home!

Thanks!