Gents, Newbie to the doubles collecting scene. I have a Old Sauer Prussian bought a few years back, and picked up a couple old buggers the other day. They function check well but are pretty grimy. This one is marked Scott. Is it worthy to be restored?
Best regards,
Bob
Depends on what you mean by "restore." If you mean a high state of originality, a resounding "NO." This was always a farmer/trade/tool gun. It would have minimal value even in near new. As a DIY project to learn some gun skills, yes. You would need to spend some money to confirm by a gunsmith that the barrels are sound. There are a number of cosmetic and functional things that, probably, you could do on your own. "Fugidabout" economically increasing its value.
DDA
To encourage you a little; this gun was made by one of the most important gunmakers of the day,WM Scott, early in his career. Made after his brother Charles joined him in the company but before they changed the company name to W&C Scott and son,a most famous name in Gunmaking.
Forgive me, but that's a piece of junk. Too far gone. Hang it on the wall and forget about it.
JR
To encourage you a little; this gun was made by one of the most important gunmakers of the day,WM Scott, early in his career. Made after his brother Charles joined him in the company but before they changed the company name to W&C Scott and son,a most famous name in Gunmaking.
That all might be true, but, I doubt that esteemed company had a notion that it would still exist at this late date. They finished it, put it in a box, and sent it to India or some other colony, or sold it to an English farmer, likely a poor English farmer, and after they collected the few pence profit, never thought about it again.
John is right. If the goal of owning a gun is actually shooting it, far better examples exist.
Best,
Ted
Now I dont want to be embroiled in an argument of what is junk and what is not. But!! This gun in the 1960s was classed as Junk!! Written off as a wall hanger. Why? A hammer gun, Damascus barrels, non ejector, and the cost to repair it was more than a cheap Spanish side by side ejector. I dont need to say any more other than I purchased it as a wall hanger. Value now for this piece of junk? How opinions can change. So what is junk today who knows in fifty years time?
Bob, is there a serial # on the trigger guard?
Damascus,
I detect a bit of a quality difference between your own junker, and the pictured Scott. One was worth the effort, one is not.
I doubt 50 years will change that.
Best,
Ted
"Sold it to an English farmer, likely a poor English farmer."
I've yet to meet a poor English farmer, they just claim to be .
Now, a tight farmer.... that's more like it
No offence intended to anyone, it just made me grin when I read it.
Very few people in the 1960s had knowledge of how many top line maker guns where treated as valueless and scraped by the gun trade here in Brit land. Well the reasoning was simple Spanish guns where so cheap, guns with Damascus barrels and hammers where given a bad reputation over safety falsely, by many of the gun trade members. Also there where fewer people who could repair a gun than simply sell one and make a good profit. In my late teens and early twenties I at one time or another owned practically every first line London makers Damascus barrelled hammer gun all valued as more or less worthless. I did keep the Purdey bar in wood and had it restored, though I was told many times I had more money than sense. Finally on one early morning Pigeon shoot in the 1960s myself and friends between us had under our arms hammer guns made by Adams, Holland & Holland, Purdey. Churchill, and most of the good makers in between because they where cheap to purchase, though eventually being scrapped for the false delights of no Damascus no hammers though having fancy ejectors.
That's a cool find. Whether or not it's shootable should be evaluated by a good barrel man familiar with muzzleloaders. Definitely worth preserving and I'm sure it served it's past owner well.
If the Scott was safe to use and reasonable price, I'd buy it for the pleasure of the experience: thought of the provenance is enough for me, taking a bird on a wild day a pleasurable premium. Then I'd send it off to my Seal Cove friend to make it right, and pass it along to another of the same spirit. Money's not everything!
Does that read >>Patent Solid Steel Through Lump<<?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Look here for possible dating of proof
http://www.shotguns.se/html/b-ham_marks_in_context.htmlPerhaps
1875-87
Mike
London gun proofed in B'ham?
My gunning hero- the late Nash Buckingham, mentioned Bonehill shotguns in his writings about his growing-up years. Nice old double indeed.. RWTF
I don't recall the dates now but at one point Winchester Repeating Arms Co imported guns made by Bonehill. Not sure if they were sold under the Bonehill Name or the Winchester name.
I could be wrong, but was of the opinion Bonehill was a Birmingham maker. Some B'ham makers maintained a London address for the "Prestige".
What Miller said. The first two orders of guns Winchester imported were made by C.G. Bonehill, and were in five grades from Match Gun down to D-quality. In 1882 a third order was acquired from Richard Redman. Winchester also imported guns from W.C. McAntree & Co. and W & C Scott & Sons.
Did a search & found this on Bonehill. I cannot guarantee its accuracy but appears the poster has done a good deal of research on this maker. I was almost certain his premises were in fact located in Birmingham.
Name C G Bonehill
Other Names C G Bonehill Ltd
Address 1 33 Charlotte Street
Address 2 Belmont Firearms Works, Belmont Row
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun & Rifle Maker
Other Address Morville Street; Price Street?
Dates 1872-1965
Notes
Christopher George Bonehill was born in 1831, son of a manufacturing ironmonger. He was apprenticed from about 1844 to 1851 to a Mr Aston (possibly William Aston & Co).
He established his own firm in 1851, but it was only in 1872 that he was recorded at 33 Charlotte Street with a factory in Morville Street.
In 1873 he moved the whole business to the Belmont Firearms Works, Belmont Row. It was probably about this time that the firm were appointed contractors to Her Majesty's War Department.
C G Bonehill was a Guardian of The Birmingham Proof House.
In 1880 he patented a shotgun action and stocks (No.1952).
In 1884 he registered four patents, No. 8469 covered barrels, No. 8471 covered a shotgun, and No.12586 taken out jointly with A J Simpson covered a shotgun.
In 1877 patent No. 3718 covered a shotgun action and in 1878 patent No. 2323 also covered a shotgun action.
In 1888 No.7823 covered double barrel breech actions and safety catches.
At about this time Thomas Naughton worked for the firm, he left in 1887 to join Holloway & Co as manager.
In 1895, patent No.12578 with A Tunstall covered a Martini action with a detachable barrel. There may have been another patent for a .22 conversion.
Virtually nothing is known about the firm from about 1900 to 1965 when they closed. Presumably, they contributed to the war effort 1914-1918, and presumably they suffered a lack of business in the period 1920-1935. From 1939 to 1965 they would have seen a gradual decline in business.
The firm were volume suppliers of sporting guns and rifles for export. They produced ball & shot guns and combination guns, and they made the Britannia air rifle. They were pioneers in the mechanisation of gun manufacture, making the "Belmont Interchangeable" shotguns.
From about 1900, C G Bonehill were the main suppliers of rifles to the "Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs". The Society was founded to encourage rifle shooting amongst working class men, and it was largely responsible for establishing smallbore rifle shooting as a sport in England. For this purpose, old .303 Martini-Enfield rifles were re-barrelled to .22 rimfire and sold at very reasonable prices.
Query ?? whether they had premises in Price Street?
Wasn't Bonehill the first to offer (or maybe popularize )"interchangeable" parts for their guns, minimizing handfitting? Gil
Wasn't Bonehill the first to offer (or maybe popularize )"interchangeable" parts for their guns, minimizing handfitting? Gil
I think that was Eli Whitney.
JR
Bonehill made a model called the "Interchangeable ". Bonehill had a lot of experience with military contracts where they perfected machine made interchangeable parts. He sold a lot of guns in America until the McKinley Tariff of 1890 killed the imported gun business. These and many more details in "Birmingham Gunmakers" by Douglas Tate.
Does that read >>Patent Solid Steel Through Lump<<?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Yes it does
In the 1960's Whilst on one of many visits to William Powell's, Carrs Lane, Birmingham. I had an interesting discussion with Mr Powell [Father of Peter] on the subject of hammer guns. At that time they had available for sale a Purdey hammer gun. As I recall, a bar action, top lever with Steel barrels. Price about 110 pounds. Mr Powell commented, "British hammer guns are the most under valued antique in the country!" To day you would be hard pressed to buy a gun such as this for less than 5000 pounds!
Sad to say your observations are so true, I opted to purchase one of those AYA's!
Does that read >>Patent Solid Steel Through Lump<<?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Yes it does
Dig on the topic:
Traditionally, Damascus barrels had their lumps dovetailed in place, as did early steel barrels. Later came the ‘chopper-lump’ barrel which most discerning sportsmen seek nowadays on any ‘best’ sidelock. Bonehill had ditched both in favour of an assemblage of what he called his ‘Patent clip lump and extension top piece’. This consisted of the two barrel tubes, machined to fit flush with a machined lump with integral connecting piece, which clipped into the top-rib. When joined together, they formed a very strong barrel, all the parts of which were machine made. The maker claimed it ‘…makes it impossible for a top piece or underneath lug to come off’."
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255252Cheers,
Raimey
rse
U.S. of A. Patent Nr. 329705A of 1885
CHRISTOPHER GEORGE BONEHILL, OF BIRMINGHAM, COUNTY OF \VARWIOK, ENGLAND.
DOUBLE-BARRELED GUN.
SPECIFICATION forming part of Letters Patent No. 329,705, dated November 3. 1885.
Application filed October 17, 1884. Serial No. 145,765. (No model.) Patented in England May 31, 1884, No. 8,469, and in Belgium March 23, 1885, No. 50,049.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
The Belmont interchangeable was Bonehill's gun having interchangeable parts.
There were others which had preceded Eli Whitney in making guns with parts "Made to Gage" to be interchangeable, but Whitney I believe carried it to a higher level & received most of the honor in the process.
There are so many things we have been taught in History classes that are wrong that it is often hard to sort out the truth. For instance how many know that after Cyrus McCormick had his reaper ready for the market, he had to wait 13 years for another man's patent on actually an advanced design to expire before he could sell his. Mr Hussey believed the old saying "Build a Better Mouse Trap & the World Will Beat a Path to Your Door". The Crowd didn't come, he sold a few locally. McCormick, on the other hand, beat a path to the World & received the credit for inventing the Reaper, which he didn't do. Likewise, Elias Howe Jr did not invent the Sewing Machine, in fact, he was never even a successful builder of them. He was issued a patent which should not have been granted which tied up other makers & he Bled the trade of some 3 million dollars & History has credited him with the invention.
Curious if there is a listing of Bonehill serial #'s to establish DOB? Specifically 25145.
Damascus, I still don't think the message has reached all gunshops here in England about the value of good old hammer guns. I went into one a couple of years ago; one of the gunshops that only sell guns beginning with a letter 'B' such as Browning, Beretta and Benelli; I'm sure you know the type, anyway I though worth asking if they get anything interesting offered in the way of hammer guns and was told 'we scrap those if they come is as they're dangerous'. I just though, more fool him.
Going back to the original question. Sympathetic restoration is well worth it on muzzle loaders provided the barrels are not too thin and pitted. Good luck. Lagopus…..
The one that got away! The thought of this gun and its end has always been a mental itch over the intervening years I could not scratch. Yes! The photograph is yours truly in the 1960s and the gun was a 1890s 12 bore Cogswell & Harrison side lock ejector with engraving to die for a perfect Silvers pad, but a scrapper non the less. The gun cost me the grand sum of twenty five pounds. Now the bad part it had Damascus barrels that I thickly rust blued to hide her Damascus pattern also put it back on face though one bore measured .740 with the other .743 9 inches from the breach on a cold day more on a warm day, English proof laws say it is out of proof. Well it was a Coggie! After all and a good looking one at that so I kept and used it for a couple of years then sold it to a friend,who also kept it for a year then traded it for a new AYA box lock. He told me a week later what he had done, I went the gun store to try and purchase the gun but all to late the gun had been crushed at the local scrap metal merchants. Looking back from today some 50 years that guns action would have been re barrelled just for the exquisite engraving alone. No matter how good the quality at the time the gun was scrap and practically valueless.
1n the 1960's I had the opportunity to purchase a Purdey hammer gun, damascus barrels, looked good but missing one hammer. I decided to look into the cost of replacing the missing hammer. Took the gun into Powell's in Birmingham. There I met with Mr Powell [Peters, father],Who examined the gun, removed the barrels, took a pen knife from his pocket. ran the blade down the joint of top rib to the barrel, gave the knife a shove half way down the barrel, Handed the barrels back to me, a glance down the barrels showed the knife blade protruding into the bore!. The advice given was; "Young man take the gun and it and throw it the canal." The gun was returned to the seller! I leaned a valuable lesson, buyer be ware!
Hard luck on that gun that got away Damascus. If you still hanker after one I have a boxlock ejector Cogswell & Harrison 12 bore 28" barrels with recent nitro re-proof circa 1892 complete with oak and leather case. A light weight model that's possibly looking for a new owner. Lagopus…..
Lagopus thankyou for your extremely kind offer, But the gun is like your first love you can remember every small detail. Though there is nothing in this world that can replace that feeling of being there and doing those things. So the Coggie will remain a much thought of memory along with my first real love Janet each not to be revisited in case actuality is not as warm as the memory.
Damascus, I suppose we all have a gun somewhere in our past that we wish we'd never parted with. Take care. Lagopus…..
"If it won't go, don't force it, just get a bigger hammer from the tool crib--"
