Say what!!!

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101171774

Baker/Folsom “White Line” pad, no doubt.

I know I’m impressed.

Best,
Ted

hmmm...lot of wear on front of action, for a never used gun.
Is that a repaired crack at the rear of the left lock plate?

And barrels with KRUPP stamped in crude block lettering on the barrels flats are especially rare... as is AAAA Exibition grade wood that is so highly figured that the figure went back to relatively straight. And those buggered screws... simply magnificent!

The 1957 letter was a masterpiece. Some of the best fiction writing I've seen... next to King.

Well it is nicer than his Purdey in 1957...only better as it has more case color.

Wow, what a piss poor investment. Adjusted for inflation, that $3780.00 gun in 1957 would be worth $33,795.00 in today's dollars. So we are looking at a terrible investment over time. Worse I doubt he could get a third of his asking price unless the buyer was blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. Nice prototype White Line recoil pad. It does look like you can see the barrel makers marks and they don't look like Krupp to me. Thanks for the laugh.

Dave: the "Krupp Custom" barrels were made by Laurent Lochet-Habran. The 'LLH' is still visible forward of the right flats

Huumm- interesting, as my 1927 era Ithaca NID 2E 12 gauge has the LLH barrel stamp as well- By 1927, we were "out of the loop" for Krupp Flustahl barrels- WW1 and all that.

Haha!!!! The letter is pure comedy. That was fun. :-)

You know....I’ve always kinda liked Bakers. They’re just a really nostalgic type of gun. Just seeing an old Baker gives me the warm fuzzies. I owned a 16 gauge Baker Batavia Special with early [censored]-tensile steel barrels, I shot a lot of doves and pheasants with that gun when I lived in Nebraska...it was a good blue collar, working grade gun.

Funny letter and I agree with LeFusil on the Baker guns. I have a B grade and two Paragons. Rather nice guns. I like them better than LC's. Weird, I know.

I once had a 12 gauge Batavia Special with those [censored]-Tensile steel barrels & now have a 16 gauge Black Beauty (not special). Nice guns, but certainly not That Nice.

Not really up on Bakers that much, maybe one of them will kick in with info, but I don't believe this is a Folsom gun, could be wrong though. "If" it was made in 1917, per the letter then that is pre-Folsom.

The cocking system. bolting nor general finish are anything like any Purdey I ever saw, don't really see anything at all identical to a Purdey. Also, Purdey's are Bar Action & not Back Action.

Sort of like saying a T-Model Ford is identical to a Rolls Royce, they both have 4 wheels while a Baker & a Purdey both have 2 barrels. Similarities end there.

Somehow he couldn't work Corinthian Leather into the description...

I think the Folsom guns have a letter F either before or after the serial number.

I wouldn’t regard any facts in the letter as actual facts.

I haven’t seen him here of late, but, Chris Shotz has forgotten more about Bakers than most of us are ever going to know. Daryl should be able to help, too.

Best,
Ted

Ted;
I bought my little 16 Black Beauty from Chris. It wasn't mint but he described it accurately & priced it accordingly. It was bought as a shooter & not a collector. We were both happy I think. At least I was.

I like Bakers and have several. They made a real heavy 12 bore water fowler that was retailed by Montgomery Ward, 32", 8 pounds, .055 chokes, .045-.060 barrel wall thickness, that I have a pair of. Both in working order but not pristine by any stretch. Always figured they would make a great composed pair for those driven duck and goose hunts. Don't know which will happen first the driven shoots or me getting around to them.

I saw this same gun and letter a couple of decades ago. It is a fun exercise to read the letter and look at the gun. Although Baker did offer the Black Beauty Special before the sale to Folsom, I have never seen a Black Beauty Special that was not a Folsom gun. I have cataloged maybe 3000 Bakers, and one has not shown up. This gun still has the Folsom F on the forend iron. Other places the F has been removed. The serial number is from the Folsom Series and the small details are all Folsom details. [under lug, firing pin retaining screws, trigger guard, rib markings etc.] You can look at some real Bakers on my website.

Who was that masked man?

Thanks, Daryl. Tell Chris I said HI!


Best,
Ted

The real thing.

A $75 Paragon Pigeon Gun ($100 with AE) was offered in 1897 with 30" steel barrels, straight grip, and engraved pigeons.
The Baker Krupp was introduced in 1904 and became the N Grade in 1906.

Courtesy of Dave Noreen



The entertaining letter referenced. L.C. Smith, one of the Parker Bros., and Dan Lefever all helped make this gun (Daniel Myron passed in 1906)!

My Baker Black Beauty Special Ejector has a serial number in the 40xx range followed by an F.

Researcher, the Folsom guns appear in two separate serial no. ranges. One range is 1F-17,000F. The other is in the 201,000 range. I am not sure of the timing or significance of either range.

As to the letter, William M. Locke was the owner of one of the finest weapons collections. A revered collector good enough to have Frank Sellers write a book on Locke's guns etc. I am not sure if others might have done the same.

I'd suggest that the letter and gun must have been done as a friendly joke. No other explanation comes to mind.

And silver triggers, just like on his Purdey. No doubt made-to-order for the Lone Ranger in 1904-- right!!

Simply a masterpiece. And clearly well researched.

*golf clap*

Makes me almost miss RGD/Dave (aka "RymanGunDog", aka "Beans"). This kind of description is right up his alley, but he would have further interjected a personalized story just to tie it all together.

"Well, you see, it was a gift from W.H. Baker's grandson to my grandfather, as a thank you, for advise he had given him about..."

The Pachmayr pad is a particularly nice "original" touch, as are the "mint unfired barrels" which have clearly been refinished, per the hole in the bottom rib.

To think they were co-produced by both LLH and Krupp! Rare, indeed!

- NDG

This gun reminds me of a guy who used to come into the gas station I worked at in high school.

His license plate said "MY VETTE"

His car was a mustard yellow 4-door Chevette, with a brown hood and missing hubcaps.

I mean...it WAS a "vette."

- NDG

Only to clarify, this is a 00 Smith with "Fluid Steel-Krupp Essen" with Armor Steel overstamp.



Krupp barrels were cataloged by Hunter Arms as an available option 1900-1905, but it is likely the tubes were manufactured by license to Laurent Lochet-Habran & Acier Cockerill Liege.

Doc Drew,

I forget the timeline, but I know I have a book somewhere on my shelf outlining how some some time after the turn of the century Krupp licensed their "recipe" out to Sanderson Brothers and possibly Crucible. Of course, after the outbreak of WW1, nobody probably felt obligated to honor any agreement with a German outfit.

EDIT: See below. I found the reference, and it was for Bethlehem Steel, and it is only a supposition of license, not diffinitive.

- NDG

Doc Drew,

I would add...that given the time line, I think it's a good guess that the Armor Steel Smith's were in fact just a variant of Krupp. Perhaps it's a good guess that even those Armor Steel barrels which have no Krupp stamp, in likelihood ARE "Krupp recipe."

I found the book reference I mentioned in a prior post. It is in a thick Harvard text book entitled, "The History of Foreign Investment in the United States to 1914," by Mira Wilkins.

In a chapter discussing German and French FDI just before the turn of the century, she writes, with a dated source notation:

"In 1893 Friedrich Alfred Krupp visited Pittsburgh en route to the Chicago World's Fair, where there was a Krupp exhibit. In 1900 the Krupp company (of Essen, Germany) had an American representative, Captain A.E. Piorkowski. 'Kruppized' armor plate was made by Bethlehem Steel, possibly under license."

So clearly, on the supposition that Bethlehem had a license, and therefore the recipe, it would be no stretch to guess that after the outbreak of WW1, they'd have simply stopped paying Krupp anything and considered such knowledge war time booty. This could be how any number of fluid steel guns actually have 'Krupp quality' barrels which are unattributed as such.

Again, just supposing.

- NDG

Thanks Bro. Nudge
Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel were licensed to manufacture Krupp steel plate in 1897; New York Times Nov. 7th, 1897
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A00E5DA123CE433A25754C0A9679D94669ED7CF

If either produced Krupp marked shotgun barrels for U.S. makers (Ithaca, Fox, Baker, Meriden Fire Arms, Torkelson, Tobin) is unknown.
Krupp marked tubes also stamped “Acier Cockerill” or with “LLH” of Laurent Lochet-Habran are commonly found.

I've not seen anything about Sanderson Brothers or Crucible having a license for Krupp, and we know that BARREL tube steel used by U.S. makers was sourced almost entirely pre-WWI from Belgium, and after a brief break, that continued after WWI.

As to Krupp's recipe; it depends on which steel
American Rifleman, April 8, 1915, Fred Adolph, “More About Gun Barrel Steel”
https://books.google.com/books?id=EpcwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA25&lpg
“Krupp makes 200 kinds of steels”

One analysis of Krupp Fluss Stahl showed it to be AISI 1045.
The single specimen of 1898 Hunter Arms “Armor Steel” I analyzed was 1045 Carbon Steel with high Phosphorus and Sulfur = AISI 1211 Rephosphorized Resulfurized Low Alloy Steel.

Old thread but lots of Krupp infro, mostly courtesy of Bro. Raimey
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...amp;type=thread

I was just deleting a bunch of old PM's to make room in my PM box, and saw where I had PM'd Daryl about a Baker Harrison Special I had bought. I completely forgot about that gun. Now I'm all excited that it might have been custom built exactly like a Purdey for President Benjamin Harrison, or maybe even ex-Beatle guitarist George Harrison.

This could rock the gun collecting world!

So I found myself looking up some Baker info this morning and came back to this thread. This listing is still active!

Dave should make this one "sticky," as it truly is one of the all-time greats.

I dare say...even RGD/Dave, that scion of LC Smith sci-fi writing, may not have conjured the Purdey association. And a factory original Pachmayr pad that was produced AFTER the gun made? That's time machine stuff! Both the gun, and letter, belong in the Smithsonion.

This makes me smile every time I read it. The typos in the listing only add to the comedy. I'm going to save an image of this letter so it can never be forgotten. W.C Fields would be proud.

There really should be a Hall of Fame area on this forum. "Hall of Infamy?"

Nudge

Further on Pachmayr...

According to Lyman's website (they own the Pachmayr name now), Pachmayr introduced their first recoil pads in 1949. But they make no mention of model.

Does anyone know when the first White Line and Decelerator types were offered? I would have guessed the 60's, but maybe the White line was their original going back to '49...?

Just interested to know.

Nudge

Bro. Nudge
The 'White Line' Recoil Pad was patented by Frank Pachmayr 1-28-35 #2091010, but made by Fray-Mershon of Los Angeles.



The Pachmayr name appeared right after WWII; 1946 Sports Afield

Fray-Mershon and later Mershon Company, Inc. also made proprietary pads for various entities --

Doc and Researcher,

Good stuff. BTW what a different world in CA. One made in downtown LA, and the other in Beverly Hills??

Try even mumbling the word "firearm" there now.

Ronny and his cowboy hat and suede jacket would look very out of place.

Nudge

Oh here's another confused fella!

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100035974

Has a Folsom-era Paragon for sale that he describes as representing guns which are "predecessor to the L.C. Smith."

He's only off by 40 years...easy mistake.

- Nudge

Of Course, Folsom-Era guns were not predecessors of the L C Smith.
However the earlies L C Smiths were marked;
"L C Smith, Maker of the Baker Gun."

I believe it was McIntosh once stated, Baker Designed it, Alexander Brown Improved it & the Fultons Built it, Just Who was L C Smith??

While W.H. Baker was involved in several early double gun businesses, the guns we know as Bakers were designed by Henry Allender, Albert C. McFarland and Frank A. Hollenbeck

["Just Who was L C Smith??"2-piper]

The money, of course...Geo

Very little mechanical similarity between the W. H. Baker, W. H. Baker and Co. (partner with L. C. Smith), and the L. C. Smith Maker of the Baker Gun, Syracuse which were all front trigger locking mechanism guns, the Hollenbeck designed 1892 Baker hammerless, and the 1886 Alexander Brown designed L.C. Smith hammerless

1904 "Baker Gun Quarterly" courtesy of David Noreen. The Baker uses a cocking rod & bolt





The Smith uses rotating cocking rods with arms extending from the "knuckle" of the action





and has a rotary locking bolt



George hasn't been around here in some time but certainly knows better

Actually, while this is true, we can't just say Smith was just a money man who didn't really know guns. I've seen references (I'm not in a place with my "stuff" right now, or I would share) to Smith's father being the one who first partnered with Baker in Lisle, NY, with both Smith brothers working at that business. So the two brothers probably had at least some hand in actually working on guns. Or at a minimum...working at the business of guns, even if they didn't possess the machinists touch.

Then, as now, he who contributes the most capital gets his name on the door (L.C. Smith)...or at least call the shots (Durston/Howlett).

Nudge

Built a good typewriter though...Geo

As I recall that typewriter was also designed by Alexander Brown. I read somewhere that Mr Brown was the first to build a typewriter that would make both upper & lower case letters. L C saw the typewriter as having more potential for making money so sold the gun business.

I don't recall ever seeing any reference to his father being in the gun business.

I think the father and sons was John Hunter, Sr. who bought the L.C. Smith gun works in Syracuse and moved it to Fulton for something to keep his six sons occupied.

Gents I will try to dig up my source. The story was that the elder Smith was in the hardware business (in Lisle, as I recall). And at some point he got into partnership with W.H. Baker, who he already knew. And that L.C. and his brother went to work there.

I don't want to assert it off the cuff...let me dig for the source and come back.

EDIT: For the life of me, I cannot find whatever paper I had on this. Or perhaps I'm just confused...either way, don't quote me.

Nudge

Interesting information about Wilbert Lewis Smith
https://books.google.com/books?id=kpoMAQAAMAAJ&pg=PP51&lpg

When Wilbert Lewis Smith was quite young, the family moved from Forestport, New York, to Lisle, New York. There he attended the common schools, later becoming a student at the State Normal School, in Cortland, New York. His first employment was in the gun manufactory of his brother, the late L. C. Smith, of Syracuse, whither he came to live in 1879. With this plant he worked his way upward to the superintendency.
It was about 1885 that Wilbert L. Smith became interested in typewriters, taking from his brother's employ a man named A. T. Brown, who was a designer and inventor and who had an idea for a "writing machine." Mr. Smith financed the building of a hand-made model of the first "Smith Premier" typewriter, which did its printing on the bottom of the roll. Two years later, in 1887, they manufactured the first machine, which amalgamated in a practical way the inventions and ideas of several mechanics.
Eventually, he induced his brother, L. C. Smith, to devote his time and capital to the making of typewriters. It was in 1890, however, that L. C. and W. L. Smith formed the Smith Premier Typewriter Company. Three years later, in 1893, came the merger of several typewriter companies—the Smith-Premier, the Remington, the Monarch, the Caligraph and the Densmore—into the new Union Typewriter Company. Wilbert L. Smith became an officer and a director of that enterprise, and he signed a five-year contract to stay with this corporation and not to engage in the building of any other machine for ten years.

Wilbert & L.C.'s father was Lewis Stevens Smith but I can't find his business.

W.H. Baker was in Lisle starting in 1867. The W.H. Baker & Co. was formed in 1877 in Syracuse, financed by L. C. Smith and his brother Leroy, and the partnership lasted until 1880.

Yeah, I found similar references with some searching as well Doc. Dunno what or where it was that I saw the other...unless I'm just loony.

I can't devote the time to a gun research wormhole today.

Nudge