With all the glOOm and dOOm in the decline thread I thought I'd start a thread on a more positive note....

Here's how I got into SxS's.

I got into SxSs for reasons different than most folk here I got 'invited in' by a Gunsmith friend name of Ed Mason...they shot black powder skeet with cartridge guns at my gun club every Wednesday.

I told him Ed I don't have a vintage SxS...he replied I got one you can shoot.

He sure cost me some money.

Ed Mason, Charlie Lindsay, Bobby Collins, Tom Jones and a few more all passed to the happy hunting grounds/club in the sky...you know if they hadn't died on me with their coaching I might've been a good shot by now.

I kept hunting with SxSs for several years...but with their loss my interest was pretty much lost.

I started with them in my teens. No apparent reason other than I thought they "were cool" at that age. Kind of went against the flow. But I can shoot most sxs's pretty well. Okay, maybe not as well as a few years back.

I started with a hand me down 16ga Western Field (Stevens with Tenite stock). Dad got a pump I got his 16ga SxS. Tried everything else in my early years and always came back to SxSs.

I have always liked them, long before they were affordable. I tend to gravitate to firearms of the mid/late 19th century because I find those times to be more interesting than other periods of history.

Joe, if your interest in them is "pretty much lost" then why are you here?

In 1963 at age 16, I inherited an old Birmingham hammer double.
C. Crawford 12 gauge, short chambers, black powder proof and reinforced at the wrist with sheet brass and many screws.
Didn't know any better so I shot it with 2 3/4 inch Canuck target loads, thinking they were mild..

Given an old 12 bore Flues Ithaca for my 12th Birthday by my father and used it for small game growing up on my Grandmothers farm. Moved West 25 years ago for school, stayed and have had bird dogs and doubles steady for over 20 years. I do not shoot anything but SxS's for birds, just what I like.

I always thought break action shotguns were neat, and that hammer guns had very graceful lines. That combined with a fairly broad nostalgic streak in me got me into Parkers then Birmingham hammer guns. Then the progressively got more and more expensive lol

As I get older my memory of dates becomes a bit cloudy but I am pretty sure that it was sometime in or around October or November of 1961 when I was 12 about to turn 13 in February that my dad replaced the Remington 37 in 20 gauge that belonged to my uncle that I had hunted several seasons with. He presented me with a Stevens 311 in 12 gauge. I was in heaven. I had wanted a Browning "humpback" but he first bought a less expensive Remington Sportsman. I kept that until my mother discovered that he had paid $100 for it. He took it back and came home with the Stevens for a mere $74. I used that little double for several years putting everything from bird shot to buckshot through it, bringing in doves, quail, rabbits, squirrels and deer. Then for many years I went to pumps and autos. Until, that is, I read an article in either DGJ or Shooting Sportsman in about 1993 about a guy who had hunted ducks with an old double gun of some sort. That caused me to pull out the little Stevens I still have and use it on doves that year. The rest, as they say, is history!! I still shoot an occasional auto or pump, but I always come back to my doubles, either SxS or O/U. But I now find as I get older I am going to the smaller gauges and much lighter weight guns!! Sorry to ramble on so long, but hey, Joe, you asked!!

I was 10 yrs old and it was my first season to carry a shotgun. My parents gave me a used bolt action 16ga, it worked fine while practicing, but at the first flush it wouldn't fire. We went back to my aunts cabin and dad worked on it a while and couldn't fix it. Grand-uncle Steve kept an old Rem 10ga hammer sxs in the closet behind the stove so dad borrowed it, we had to go to the local store(sold everything back then food, beer , bait, ammo, gas, oil) and they had a couple boxes of Green paper Remington 2 7/8" 6's on the shelf. Well dad filled his limit of grouse both days and I got none, I thought the old sxs was magic.

Dad and Mom gave me a brand new pump for Christmas, I shot it for trap for a long time but saved my lawn moving money and spent all $15 of it on an old sxs and it was my hunting gun, killed my first grouse on the wing with it.

I never could shoot a sxs very well for trap but in the field,, skeet and SC it is my goto kind of shotgun.

My Dad had his uncle's 20 ga Western Long Range. The first shotgun I ever shot.

In 1958 when I turned 12, my dad gave me a 16ga Stevens double. Back when I started trap shooting it was a 870, then a BT-99. That was in the 70s. Quit that after 3 or 4 years and finally got back into shooting clay birds when the wife suggested we should around 2000. I've been buying SxSs ever since. I've bought and sold a number of them over the years and at about 15 right now. The one thing I enjoy is shooting old American made SxSs, especially the ones with Damascus barrels.

My dad's only shotgun was a 16 gauge Stevens Springfield sxs. At age 12 I killed my first pheasant with that gun, the weight of the barrels pulling my swing through the bird's flight path to provide enough lead. Must have been the unluckiest pheasant in Pennsylvania that day. I was hooked from then on.

started with a 16 gauge stevens 311a...my dad bought it for me in 1953 for my tenth birthday...

first gun i ever had with case colors...been hooked ever since...

jOe; Neat thread. I started with a Model 17 Remington when I was about 8 years old. I grew up shooting skeet, so it was Remington 1100 and O/U for many moons. After my Dad died about 30 years ago, I got hooked on SxS shotguns, because I’m an upland game hunter. They are the prettiest of guns and are a ‘gentleman’s’ upland gun. Started out with a Model 21 and then jumped to the English guns. I can shoot a SxS pretty well, but never quite as good as an O/U. If I really want to kill grouse, I take my Browning Superposed 20 ga. Quail are a lot easier to hit, so no problem shooting them with a SxS. One caveat.....a gun must ’fit’ me pretty close to ideal dimensions to be good for me, no matter if O/U or SxS.

Reading the above posts, I’m wondering how many kids today get a shotgun for their 10th to 12th year old birthday.

About 2005 read the McIntosh book “Best guns ever made in America “, down the rabbit hole from there. Maybe, I could just find one of each and stop there. Yeah right. No one warned me about the British gun addiction.

Just to make your life a living hell untill you make a donation.
Last I checked this is place is called Double Gun Forum...not SxS Forum.

Fact is I've not lost interest in double barrels.

Now Frank, for once in your life, you started a decent thread. Why ruin it? Shitting on your own thread is just plain stupid.

As for making my life a living hell, good luck with that. Actually, I'm finding you entertaining, marveling at your stupidity and ignorance. How low can you go? We will find out.

I think maybe a whole bunch of them get guns, but perhaps not shotguns. It is pretty easy to find kids as young as 5 or 6 shooting deer on youtube videos that are posted on forums. Seems like most kids shoot a deer for their first hunting experience these days.

Um... Seems to me you are the one going off topic...
Why blame jOe?
Does he aggravate you that much?

This thread was doing just fine till BrentD the free loader showed up...

Interesting Topic.
My father didn't hunt even though his father did hunt. I purchased my first gun when I was probably 22 for hunting dove. It was a new Ithaca 37 20 gauge. I became more interested in guns and attended a few local gun shows and I stumbled across Walt Snyder's great book, Ithaca from the Beginning.
I basically read the whole book, bought a Knick trap gun and then started on SXS's.
I haven't shot anything but a SXS in a few years. Trap, Sporting Clays, Turkey, Geese, Duck, Dove, Grouse, and Woodcock. If a shotgun is the gun of choice, it will be a SXS for me.
I gave my son a little earlier start, a Lefever A grade on his 10th birthday.
Stan

Nope, Dm, I did not off topic at all. Read my posts again. Just followed the posts and responded to them. Just as I am responding to me.

Always interesting to wonder what it is that motivated Frank. He works so hard at it.

After shooting O/U for several years, I stumbled upon a Browning BSS at a gun show and bought it to try. That's what did it, the O/U's moved down the road and the SxS's began to accumulate. I've had the fever ever since.
My proudest moment was when I introduced my son to doubles and started him with one of mine as a gift. I've been on his wife's "list" ever since.
Karl

Make a donation to the board and my motivation will cease to exist...

Nice stories guys...I hate we were interrupted by a free loader.

Started with a Steven 311 my Dad had in the 60's. Shot that gun after he left it to me. Got a Parker Repro in 1986.

Now I am slowly selling off the sxs and one O/u in my safe. Probably will keep a couple to give to my kids if anyone wants them...

I went from having no sxs's to a covey of them. Back in the day I bought and sold a lot of rifles and handguns. I had a become a favored customer of the area pawn shops. One of the proprietors asked me if I was interested in some sxs's...I said maybe. Long story short...I bought a 20 Ga Darne, a AYA 20 Churchill,a graded 10 Ga Parker lifter, and a 12ga Fox CE at one time. Within a week I picked up a #7 DM Lefever, many, many, were to follow but only a couple remain.

So untrue. You've been doing this from the beginning Frank. You can't NOT do it. You are a psychologist's dream come true for pathological behavior.

Started of with a Mossberg 20ga bolt action in the late 40s, traded it for a 20ga Nitro Express in the mid 50s. A few hundred SxSs later I still have some around but guess it is time to start moving them as I really don't shoot hunt anymore.

Ain’t that rich? This coming from the freeloading masochist, Mr. Mcfeeley doppelgänger, who keeps coming back for more beatdowns and making stupid comments absolutely no one cares about and rarely responds to. You’re a fugazi, BrentD. A poser. Pony up to Dave, quit spreading counterfeit discontent and quit running your jibs. That’d be swell. Probably wont happen, you’re just too stupid to quit.

Just to stay on topic... :-)

History. Being a huge fan of history and spending much of my childhood on Europe, I was always fascinated with history. Had a couple old coworkers that got me into shooting, just so happened they both shot old guns. One of them had an entire library of gun books and dgj’s....I started reading, learning, and the love of doubles sprouted from that. I was 22 years old when this happened. It’s slowed down quite a bit but the interest is still there and I still like to get my learn on with some very knowledgeable gunmakers that I’m very privileged to hang out with. Still shoot and hunt with sxs’s...but I use o/u’s, pumps, and autos too. Some old (my eldest is 135 years old) some young & modern. It’s all good.

I bet I know one of the gunmakers you hang out with Dustin, and he’s one of the best, if not the best stock maker there is. I’m guessing it’s a pleasure watching him perform his craft.

I served at the American Embassy in India for three years in the late 1980’s. My landlord was Indian Army Major General D.K. (Monty) Palit, former chief of operations of the India Army (during the Indo-China War), Sandhurst in the 1930’s, WWII Indian Army veteran, and noted military author. He was from an upper-class Indian family which had adopted British customs when it came to gun-sport (late 1880’s on). (His father, a Bangali, had been a Medical Doctor). He had 5 doubles on his wall passed down by his father and grandfather, I believe they were: a 12ga Holland & Holland, a 12ga E.M. Reilly, a 16ga possibly Army-Navy, one I’m not sure of and a 20ga. William Evans.

I had a CJ-7 Jeep in New Delhi at that time; he had the hunting permits; and we went out often in the Falls of those three years, hunting ducks, dove and quail in the brilliant yellow mustard fields of Uttar Pradesh on the Gangetic plain. He used his H&H; I used my Remington 870 - a pump I'd used for many years (I had a Browning automatic in Pakistan but had sold it there in 1978 before I left) - something he informed me one didn’t do in polite society (I countered that in Alabama we might have a dog…here he had 5 shikaris and a couple of servers cleaning the birds and making duck-curry sandwiches…different places, different solutions). But the idea that I needed a SxS became fixed…even more so when he gifted my wife the 20ga William Evans as we left country. Since that time, I held dozens of English SxS’s. Nothing felt right.

Gen. Palit's books and obituary:
https://www.amazon.com/D.-K.-Palit/e/B001IC8QPK
http://www.india-seminar.com/2008/586/586_in_memoriam.htm

Then at a gun show in November 2015 I went out to buy a Thompson...and a Reilly hammer gun just stuck to my hand. It was 6 lbs 1oz, chambered for 2 1/2; 30” Damascus barrels; twin triggers; no ejectors; with that beautifully slim upper stock and receiver that comes with hammer guns - It was similar to the General’s E.M. Reilly as I remembered it; Perhaps I had imprinted on that gun? But whatever It felt like a rapier, while everything else now seemed like battle-axes. The seller had about 15 guns from very high-quality makers. He said I was the only person ever to show interest in the Reilly. He insisted on my shooting it..I did and couldn’t part with it..It had some imperfections; it wasn’t pristine, had been worked on; I paid too much but it was my gun.

I've since gotten into researching the Reilly. And from this board I got interested in French Saint-Etienne guns. I've bought a few more, all of them used regularly...none very expensive. If truth be told, that old 1978 870, now given to youngest son, can probably shoot better than my SxS's... But I just like the feel of the wood and the look of the barrels of that Reilly.

You know it, Buzz. Hope you’re staying warm!!

I'm happy to round and round with you Short Fuse. Not a problem. You can even call me whatever names you want. I'm still not going to pay Dave a nickel and I will continue to recommend that no one else should either. So far, he doesn't much seem to care. But you sure love to speak for him. So, nope, not going to happen. If you or Frank or whomever want to take a swing at me, I'll happily oblige with a response. Count on it. In fact, you inspire me to make some sort of signature block about it. Why not? I'll have to do that soon. Thanks for provoking the idea.

and
"Just to stay on topic... :-)"

You, Shorty, should especially love that my first double gun was a Merkel. I still have and use that gun on a regular basis. It is every bit as reliable and functional as the Merkel reputation claims it should be. As ugly as you find it, and I admit, it does have that certain Teutonic profile that the English guns so nicely avoid, but as they say, "Beauty is as beauty does," and it was very affordable. Not to mention, coming from an 870, just about any decent double looks good.

Later, I discovered used guns, had the time to search for them and learn about them, a bit more pocket change to buy them, and I learned how to fix many things that I didn't think I could deal with back when I bought the Merk.

So there you have it. Shall we dance? your call.

See what I mean^^^^ ... you’re a really special kinda stupid. . It’s hilarious actually. :-). Thanks.

glad you think so. That way, we are both happy. How can you complain?

But you will.

I do think so. So does everyone else. No complaints here. In the meantime...try working on losing the boards address. Be nice for you to find a place you’re wanted.

Shorty, someday you will get over yourself. But it may be a while. In the meantime, save some love for those Teutonic guns. They have their good points. Then maybe you will find it possible to expand to other acts of beneficence. It could even become a positive feedback thing for you. No telling where it would take you. Try it.

Carry on.

my father gave me his iver johnsom herc 12a 30" mod/full SR DT.
then i got one in on trade.
i offloaded some pistols and rifles for it.
shot it.
ok.
bought a friends collection prior to him going into nursing care.
skb 100's and 200's.
tried to like them. sold them. bought a farm tractor.
im not addicted to any of them. that includes semi's or o&u. if something more important comes up.....they go.
I have a few more models i'm fond of. would I like them? yes. but at my age, I have to ask, why?

I had started research on spotted hyenas in Kenya in 1978 and the tranquilizing equipment in those days was very crude - the aluminum dart was fired by a .22 nail gun blank and was heavy, fast, and hit the animal hard. Then the drug was literally exploded into the animal by a small powder charge (the dart gun was a modified Harrington and Richardson single shot by Cap-Chur Guns in Georgia). This is as painful as it sounds, and hyenas ran like hell when hit, often ending up in thick bush before they passed out. One finds all sort of other things besides sleeping hyenas in dense bush, and I wanted a rifle for these excursions. Ever since the Mau Mau, Kenya has had draconian gun control, and the firearms officer would only give me a permit for a shotgun. I bought a Brno 49 in Nairobi, a friendly game warden gave me some (illegal) slugs he had confiscated, and I carried that for many years. Questions about it decades later brought me to this board.

You guys made me buy a number of Brit shotguns since then, and in Kenya I eventually got a permit for a .470, which has been my work gun for the last 20 years.

The upshot is that a SxS was my first shotgun, and clickety-clack guns have never felt right.

I believe I read that Harry Selby once had a .470 double express rifle- it was run over by a lorry while on safari, he then was able to obtain a new Rigby .416 BA, which became his mainstay rifle "In Country"- with a M70 Win. BA in .375H&H as well-

If I could have a double express big game rifle, it would be a drop-lock Westley-Richards .470-- no sling clips, recoil pad and pg with single trigger- at short range (under 100 yards perhaps?) an experienced big game shot has the fastest two shots available- plus the rifle stays mounted in the shoulder pocket, no excess movement needed to cycle the bolt for the "finisher"!!~!

First post. Great thread, btw
My grandfather died in 1927 (when my father was 2). My Dad married late and was an older man by the time I was born. One day, he let me into the back room of my grandmother's house, long sealed off. There in the dusty shadows, two shotguns leaned against the wall. One, a 12g H&R single shot, with "WCR" hand carved into the stock -- my grandfather's initials, and my father's, and my son's. The other was a sxs with a broken hammer. One day, it was gone. I could not have been more than 5 or 6 but I still remember that gun, and that day. My father was not given to sentiment but it clearly saddened him. We brought the single shot home that day (still have it). My Dad died too soon, my brother and I not yet men.
I tried for years to find that sxs -- talked to relatives, explained that it was worth more to me than anyone (and, thereby, was worth more to whoever had taken it) but it never resurfaced.
Time passed by. Life was kind and I had the chance to hunt the world over with rifle and shotgun, with my own son at side. Eventually, I retired, joined an upland/waterfowl club, bought a Gordon Setter puppy and started casting about for things to do. A couple gun shows and a couple impulse purchases of British guns in rough shape, planning to (and in process of) bring them back to life. Now, almost no space in the safe, and still looking for more.
I would trade them all for that old double with the broken hammer, and five minutes with the man who showed it to me.

So here in this thread, we have BrentD, once again engaging in the exact behavior that he claims as the basis of his crybaby financial boycott of this forum.

Nobody needs to call him mentally sick when he provides so much proof on his own.

Kudos to Dustin, JOe, Stan, and everyone else who recognizes that BrentD isn't worthy of anything but recognition of his immature behavior.

Very well written, and welcome.

I had owned a couple 20 ga O/U Berettas, but for me a "double gun" will always be a sxs. Held and shot my first at Flatwater, Voss' 16 ga Grulla. Been hooked on the 16 sxs since, and have settled in on the Manufrance Ideal. Love 'em.

Mike

Y85 I know you would.

My college roommate got me into duck hunting, which for us meant wading marshes and rivers. I reasoned, when up to your ass in muck or current, it would be easier to keep the muzzles of a sxs out of the drink because the break open angle was half that of my o/u. That was my justification for buying a Flues. Then I learned a Flues shouldn’t be fed Walmart duck loads so it was back to the o/u.

I started shooting late as we had moved to FL in the late 60s when I was a kid. In 1985, I moved to CO. I always wanted a double barrel and bought a used BSS 12 gauge. Unfortunately, the chokes were M/F. I couldn't hit a 1 gallon bucket thrown in the air with it. I ended up buying a Win101 and used it until the 21st century. I bought a SxS in 2005 and have hunted with one ever since. I like the looks, lightweight, and easy to carry. I still use an O/U for targets once in a while.

Ken

My Dad saw to it that I got out as much as I could with him, as a kid. My little brother didn’t have the same drive for bird hunting I did, and my Dad saw to it that he got plenty of fishing in. For reasons I still don’t get, this pissed my Mom off, but, my Dad seemed to have a good read on us kids, and we both got into something we loved, it was just different for each of us. I was, and am, a bit of a dud at fishing. Dad let me use his Beretta Silver Snipe 12 for a few years, when I was 12-13.
I had a single shot Italian folding gun in 12 gauge for the bird season I was 14 years old, complements of my Mom, who just bought what my Dad told her to buy. It is a good gun, but a poor choice for a kid, something my Dad figured out about 30 seconds after it went off the first time. It weights about 4 1/2 lbs, and I boxed at 112. Painful math equation. The following year, I bought his deer hunting partners Remington model 17, which, I used until I was about 22. I added a Remington 1100 in 12 gauge, but, never clicked with that gun.
I researched Darne shotguns from old articles by Roger Amber, and Roger Barlow, and bought an R15 20 gauge, unfired, from a preacher in Indiana, who had a kid locked up in the joint, and needed money. A friend bought the preachers V19 20 gauge.
I sold that gun, a mistake I rue to this day. But, there have been many others, and while I have all different kinds of guns, I grab some form of double almost all of the time, save horrible weather conditions. Some were expensive, some were not, all are a blast.
I miss my Dad. I owe much of this and who I am to him. Were it not for him, and his Setters, I might not be the guy in the woods that I am.
I have guns that aren’t doubles, and if a law was passed that I couldn’t hunt with doubles, I’d still hunt and shoot. But, if they took away Setters I would likely sell all my guns.
Best,
Ted

When I was in 4th or 5th grade my Dad decided he wanted to collect Parker shotguns. When he brought home his first, a VHE 12ga, the words "double-barreled shotgun" entered my vocabulary, and I've been hooked ever since. ---Matt

Bought my first gun at 13. Just happened to be a lc Smith fw12. 35 bucks hard earned priming tobacco. Shot my first doves that labor day weekend. Learned quick 3dram ounce and an eighth killed on both ends. One box of shells for two birds and a black and blue shoulder. But man was I hooked! Still have it (cracked stock and all) Now shoot a Silver Hawk or Reilly hammer gun. Seven eights oz 1200 much more to my liking. Also have my granddad's lc fw 12 he bought new in 1939 of course I cherish it the most even with the 13" stock. (I'm 6'3") lots of good times and memories.

I like the name we've ran across a few tamoto stakes on here before...

There were no sxs guns in the family when I was growing up. The men who hunted used pump guns or automatics. I started with single shots and progressed to pumps, a Rem. model 31 20ga, and an Ithaca model 37 12ga. I shot the pumps until I was 40 and then switched to automatics.

I had traded a few doubleguns but never really shot one as my regular choice until my mid 40's. Now they're pretty much all I shoot and I've accumulated more than I need. Some are just collectibles. My collection idea was a representative low grade gun from all the American Classics (Parker,Fox, Elsie, Ithaca and Lefever). Then I discovered there were many many more...Geo

I blame a lot of that on this bulletin board.

Hi joe
I was born (1957) & grew up in Somerset in the south west of England. I was driving farm machinery on a neighbors farm at a very early age, and remember when I used to drive the big combine harvester, the farmers would be walking ahead with a couple of guns, mostly Greener martini singles, waiting for rabbits, pheasants, partridge or the odd hare to flush . but I remember one gent had a real nice Goggie sxs...he let me shoot a couple of shots off into the stubble, I remember well the engraving & lovely wood, also the beautiful waxed blue & red cartridges, they seemed like jewels to me. I remember I stole one from him, I thought I might go to prison if caught..
I have loved them ever since
i moved to Ireland around 18, & used to shoot alot of rabbits with a mates sxs...I always thought they were beautiful guns.
Cheers
franc

Always good to hear from you, Franc Otte. You’ve been pretty quiet as of late. Hope you’re well.

Great thread, I've enjoyed reading your posts about how you came to own your guns.
A faulty Belgian boxlock came my may for the price of a couple of beers. A quick strip, clean and a gentle touch with a smooth file got it cocking and firing, it never let me down, then I was drawn towards my first Brummie boxlock and sold the Belgian on to a guy who hammered it for years.
2 nice English boxlock 12's and an AYA 20 which I bought from an old friend who's no longer with us live in my cabinet and I've no intention in moving to the guns with the barrels on the wrong way
There's just something about the way a SxS looks.

hi LeFusile,
Hope ye are well mate
Do you need a nice Greener Hammer Gun, by any chance ?
cheers
franc

Franc,
I don’t, I’m afraid. Although I would love to have a nice quality hammergun. I’m currently tapped out on double guns at the moment. I need to find more time to shoot the ones I’ve got! I think I did manage to get each gun I own out for at least 1 hunt this year...obviously some more than others. Not too many folks can say they shot birds or game with every gun they own in a single year. :-). Stay warm.

My dad borrowed my neighbor's sxs .410 and let me use it on a squirrel hunt when I was in the third grade. I got a squirrel and wanted to own a sxs from that day on. I was 14 before I actually owned one. It was a lousy gun, but I did become a decent wing shot with it and would have used it as my main shotgun for decades if it hadn't fallen apart.

I bought most of my early guns from a good friend of my father who was a sporting goods rep. I knew that he was a Garcia rep and he got me several reels. What I didn't know at the time was that Garcia was the USA importer for Beretta in those days and he could have gotten me a GR2 for about half of retail and I could have grown up using a decent gun. Oh well

I went duck hunting with my grandfather when I was 10 years old, in 1970. He was shooting a Stevens double and I thought it was the coolest gun ever. For my 12th birthday I received a Spanish 20 ga. sxs. It's been sxs guns ever since. I have a couple of classic pumps and autos but I rarely use them.

If a Lorry ran over my gun I'd whup her arse by God...

Joe- if you are a married man, is by chance, your wife's name "Lori"?

I am now 60. Took a 20 year break from shooting and hunting, mostly because of having young children. I started hunting when i was a teenager. Mostly grouse and woodcock,and pheasants. Started with pumps,moved to autos. First 2 barrel was a Browning Superlight citori. Sometime in my youth I got magazines like Gray's Sporting Journal,with their stories on New England grouse hunting and read books,particularly by George Bird Evans. I realized to be an upland hunter you had to hunt with the proper gun and that's a sxs. First one I bought was propably ,hmm,I really can't remember. Was there something like an American Arms Derby? Half the time it misfired.Nextand last at the time was was a Bernadelli. WhenI look at old pictures it was a rather plain gun, but I sure could hit pheasants with it. I didn't know anything about lop, and drops at the time. It was just an off the shelf gun. Besides having young children there were other reasons I stopped hunting. Sold the gun and concentrated my free time on fishing. I had always had labs,my father had labs ,my grandfather had labs. My last one that was a pheasant machine passed about the same time. My youngest daughter begged me to get another one but I was done at that time. There were moments that I missed the field and particularly the dog work ,the best part of hunting imo. My daughter said that as soon as she graduated from school the first thing she was doing was getting a puppy. Well she did. All it took was to take the pup for a few runs and it raised a lot of long gone emotions and memories. I had never thought I would hunt again but now I'm back. The only gun I'd get would be a sxs. nothing else was of interest. I started searching the internet and holy shit,was there a lot out there. The wonders of technology. It's been an eye opener and educational since I really didn't know a lot about old sxs's. Now I've got 2 16ga. Parkers,a 16ga. Pape and a 12ga. Francotte. And am searching for a light English 12ga for my next one. After 20 years I can't hit a damn thing but it doesn't matter. The joys of being out in the field with my daughter lab is more than enough.

If it is not about the guns, then it is about the dogs. Great story ksauers1

My dad hunted with a little Ibar 20 gauge. Big grouse hunter, he also hunted with an old Hopkins and Allen I used both guns growing up hunting grouse and everyone we hunted with all carried sxs. Latter the collection grew to AYA, Rizzini Browning’s I still hunt with all my sxs, but shot all shot guns. Just wish we had grouse like we did in the 80s

I was given a JC Higgins .410 S X S to care for at age 8. I terrorized the squirrels, rabbits, doves and an occasional quail with it. From it I moved into auto loaders, following the "dictates" of the older men with whom I hung out. About 35 years ago my nostalgia for the little .410 grew strong and I decided I wanted a Fox Sterly. I finally found a really nice one, shot doves the whole next season with it, and from then until now it has been a runaway train. Ninety percent of my hunting is with S X Ss, with the rest split between a Beretta 687 20 ga. SPII Sporting and a "new" little WesternField/Browning 20 ga. pump.

My interests in S X Ss are at the two ends of the spectrum. I am addicted to big, 32" barreled S X S 12 ga. magnum duck guns, and also to long barreled S X S .410s. Can't really explain that. It is what it is.

SRH

Good story Ksauers1!! I agree with all the points you made, especially the last one. Since I don't recall having seen your name before it seems a welcome to the board is in order. Stick around and contribute when you can. Ignore all the idiocy that goes on with some and enjoy the knowledge passed on by the rest. Welcome!!

You are fortunate Stan. My addiction to guns in general and doubles in particular knows no limits!! Oh woe is me. But, if that is all I have to worry about, I can handle it!!

I grew up on a farm in a farming community, surrounded by farms, orchards & vineyards. Those were different times. No firearms licence needed, no firearms registration, no age limits for shooters & no climate of fear of guns & phoning the police at hearing their report.

As a consequence of many pests who ate whatever the grower had I had a rifle almost grafted onto my arm at a young age. A model 1B Lithgow single shot .22 long rifle. I became deadly with that thing & was welcome on all the properties around because I got the difficult pests as well as the easy ones.

As a youngster I always scorned the use of scatter guns & Dad had a Beretta single shot 12g that I tried shooting but I tried shooting it like a rifle. This just proved to me that the gun was as useless as I had thought. So I stuck to my ever growing arsenal of rifles that could shoot further & ever further into the next zip code.

Later in life I was working maintenance on a big citrus & pecan orchard which had a pest problem with birds. Right up my alley.
After getting the control permits & satisfying all the now legalities I ripped it up them with the rifle but soon found that they would not sit still & cop it sweet. They flew around overhead & I soon worked out that a shotgun may have a use after all. I went & bought an old very cheap H&R single called the duck. Knowing how useless a shotgun was I didn't want to invest too much coin in this folly. It was only a look see if the things had become something more useful than I ever found them to be.

Well this old 36" barreled H&R showed me & taught me to shoot like a shotgun needs to be shot. Then I needed more fire power & I got another gun with 2 barrels seeing as how 2 is better than one. it just happened to be a SxS & cheap because shotguns were still on trial with me. This one proved its worth to me in a short time.

Now I am an addict.

O.M

The first "Double" I ever had was as a young child I had a break action double "Popgun". It didn't even shoot corks, just made a noise. I truly don't think that had any influence on my liking of SxS's though. First shotgun I shot was an H&R small frame 28 gauge single, Next was a Stevens 94 20 gauge single & then an old H&A 16 gauge single. I did not own any of these. My Dad was not a hunter but had bought me a single shot .22 bolt action at a fairly young age. I killed some squirrels with it but was not a good shot. Would not learn to shoot a rifle until I joined the National Guards my Senior year of high school at age 17. There I was introduced to the Peep Sight.

When I was 16 I began wanting my own shotgun & sort of wanted a pump. My Dad though a double would be safer for me & insisted we look for one. Ended up buying an old J Stevens Arms & Tool Co (Pre WWI) 12 gauge. Shortly after I graduated high school at age 18 I did buy a pump, an 870 Rem 20 gauge with 28" mod barrel. For me it turned out to be the worst gun buy of my life, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with it even from inside. Tried a Poly-Choke on it. I know that many deplore those things but will have to say the "ONLY" thing I ever liked about that 870 was the Poly. Ended up taking a beating on trade ion to a Parker Trojan 12 ga with 28" barrels.

In Hindsight I totally disagree with my Dad that a double is inherently safer for a beginner but am never-the-less grateful he started me in that direction. Have shot a variety of different makes over the years but finally settled on the Lefever as my double of choice, & am basically of the opinion if it can't be successfully be shot with a SxS it just doesn't have any need to be shot at all. This, of course, is considering shotgun game, have never owned a double rifle. Always wanted one though.

Saw a pretty nice & very reasonably priced 9.3x72R double rifle once & have always wished I had bought it.

The way a double is safer for a beginner is if it has an automatic safety. Every time the gun is opened to reload the safety goes on. No pump or autoloader does that.

I don't like automatic safeties, but I'm no longer a new kid on the block with doubles.

SRH

Stan, I suppose it's a matter of personal opinion, but not having a live shell in a hot chamber the instant after firing is a good thing, safety-wise. For me, it was the reason I chose a pump when I was 11 and my dad was buying me a "real" shotgun. I don't think the safe on reloading is as big a deal as cold chamber after firing. More than once I stumbled when surprised by a grouse flush and getting off the first shot and pivoting to find the second bird that I could hear flushing also.

So, you're saying don't let the kid load but one shell in the pump? If so, when he loads that next shell and closes the bolt on it, has he remembered to put it back on safe?

I stand by my statement that a double with automatic safety is the safest for a kid. Whether you let him load one shell, or two. Same difference........ safety is on when he reloads.

SRH

Nope. Did not say that. I don't think reloading is that dangerous relative to having an instantly available hot chamber after firing the first shot. Just a matter of preference I guess.

Thanks, jOe, for starting this thread.
1948 was a good year for my Dad for two reasons: after spending the entire war in the Pacific and then scratching out the beginnings of a life with his bride, he’d finally saved up enough to purchase the gun he really wanted but hadn’t been able to afford, an Ithaca M37, and he found out that I was on the way. That gun and his appreciation for it began my own appreciation of Ithaca’s. His Dad was the best wing shot in the county and favored A5’s. Father and son both shot 16’s and following them around and listening to their conversations ignited a love for the 16ga in me as well. On special hunts I got to shoot one or the other of those guns. I have them both now. In college, I worked my way through school washing dishes and working in a restaurant. My boss was a dove hunter and invited me along but I had no gun and no spare money for shells. He borrowed a SxS from a friend for me and with it I learned to love the double gun as well as the value of making each shot count. This thread has caused me to look back with gratitude to my Dad for the love of Ithaca’s; to my Grandfather for my love of the 16ga; and to an unknown friend of a friend who lent a SxS to a college kid he didn’t know for my love of SxS’s. I have quite a few now. All Ithaca’s. All 16’s. All sweet.

My dad gave me a used Parker 20 gauge when I was a teenager.
It fit me and I shot it and still have it ( and a couple of newer Parkers).

Miller my dad wasn't a hunter either nor my two older brothers but my dad never discouraged me from my passion...BB guns at about 8...I was an expert Asian turtle shot. I squirrel hunted with an uncle a few times before I was 10...about 11 or 12 I was turned loose in the woods behind our house with my Remington 514 Targetmaster...about that time I got a .20 ga. Single
shot...nothing is as discouraging as blowing a squirrel out of a tall tree with a shotgun only to see it hit the ground and run off.
I quickly went back to my rifle.

Most all of the guns I had I had to buy myself...my first big rifle was a surplus 7×57 Mauser (maybe 30 or 40 bucks)...Sears sold 50 rd boxes of military ammo for about $3.00....I did a lot of practice.
I worked all the previous summer saved my money and bought the gun and ordered a Fajen stock....I had already joined the Outdoor life book club and purchased a few books on stock finishing and general gunsmithing finally fitted and finished the stock. I had a gunsmith drill and tap it and turned the bolt down and put in low scope safety. Topped it with the best Bushnell scope I could afford...about 20 bucks.

Turned out nice so nice my shop teacher talked me out of it...he started my next hobby gun trading. My next big gun was a 30.06 Remington 760 pump. I shot my first deer at 13 jumped him..chased him and hit him 3 times before the 3 point monster fell...I still have his horns.

Shotguning came later when I quail hunted with some older guys I worked with...sadly I was hooked on deer.

The need to learn to hit moving targets with a shot gun came when I got my turkey dog.

I was 17 and in my grade 12 year of highschool. About April I saw a double online, or what was left of one, no wood, no fore-end iron, missing a hammer, rusted to hell, but for 55$ I was open to the idea. It was a Riverside Arms made Savage 215. I knew enough about doubles to give me some confidence when looking at the pictures. While the outside was rusty, the bores were like mirrors, and the lock up was tight as could be. Three weeks later it was in my hands, having shipped from PEI to Ontario.

As the weeks went by I started working on getting things back in order, made a new fore-end iron, polished and cold blued the barrels, made a new left hammer. Having watched Colin Stolzer's videos on gun building I started to make the stock, fitted for myself. By this point it was the end of June, grad fast approaching, and 3 University prep class exams to write. I worked on the stock when I was no longer capable of studying. Smoke inletting is surprisingly good stress relief. The stock was done by the time I graduated, the fit on that gun was excellent, I found I could break crossing clays without even touching my cheek to the comb, a feat I have been unable to replicate with any other guns I have. It just points so easily.

I spent my downtime that summer eradicating starlings and grackles at an abandoned family farm. I must have taken down nearly 60 of them between July and September, I say nearly because I quit counting at 52, and I know I took care of a few more after that. I still have the gun, though I've upgraded to a FEG 500 with 3" chambers, and a Spanish made 10ga SxS. It comes out to break clays here and there. It has over 40 hours of work into it, and I treasure it as a reminder of that time.

Joe;
I killed my first deer with a 7x57 Mauser. Mine was a Spanish 1916 model which was a short rifle version of the long 1893. A co-worker named Bill, who did gunsmithing & ran a shop out of his home had it in the pre-1968 days. It had been listed in the mags as "Sporterized" which consisted of removing the top handguard & shortening the forearm. Someone had ordered it themselves, then decided it wasn't what the wanted so traded it in to Bill. I got it for less than I could have ordered it for & did a lot more work on it & made a pretty decent shooter out of it. Killed that first deer with open sights, made by Williams. I eventually put a Leupold M8-3X with post reticle on it which was worth more than the rifle.

Borrowed BigDaddy's (grandfather) 12 ga Damascus, brand unknown for hunting rabbits and such behind his place. Pitted and loose, I was instructed to shoot "low brass" loads and keep it twist-wired shut! But much later I happened onto a Greener actioned, Belgian barreled magic wand, light and sveldt. Spoiled me for non fitting shotguns. Strangely, I shoot much better at ground level (brush background) with a sxs and perhaps a tad better with a single barrel against the sky. But not an o/u--my left eye picks it up for crossover problems. I also like the old guns with about 3" of drop! ymmv

Frank Otte, have you considered putting that greener in the for sale section?

Better get that PTPS lOOked at Perry...

You are about 4 days too late.

The other great thing about break-action guns- as we all know- once the breech is open, 2 good things occur- (1) anyone can see if there are shells in the chambers, or not- and (2) the gun cannot be fired in that mode- must be closed.

Hunting with Mr. Blair, our neighbor-- He had an early Browning A-5, with the safety inset in the trigger guard, as on the M-1 and M-14 Military rifles I came to know later in life.. Dad has the M21, with auto safety, and I had his 20 gauge M12 with their design.

After he took his turn over Pepper (his English Pointer) and neatly dropped a rooster, I watched him handle that A-5- pushing back the safety bar inside the trigger guard, before reloading the magazine.

"Gosh, Mr. Blair" I exclaimed, that safety on your gun works different than on my, or even Dad's!" "That's quite right, lad- but always remember, the only safety on a gun you can trust is the one located up between your ears!""

He was also the first of my Dad's hunting friends to do the "finger" number- he would always insert his index finger into the chamber after unloading his gun, "If you don't feel air, then beware!"" I still do the same today when shooting my M12's--

When I was 14 years old, under the Christmas Tree was a new Stevens 311-D 20 ga. It likely got dry fired 10,000 times that morning (the firing pins didn't start breaking until 30 years later). I hunted everything there was to hunt in South Louisiana with that shotgun (and others, but mostly that one). I refinished the stock and removed the pressed checkering. I was the only one of my hunting buddies who carried a SxS. It's been submerged, stuck in the duck pond mud, and sat in my trunk at the airport in Shreveport, LA for two weeks while I was in CN. The seal on my trunk failed and the trunk filled with water. That wasn't too good for it. It still worked though. The next year I had it re-blued by someone who billed themselves as a gunsmith. The barrels were mottled and the receiver turned purple. Oh well. I still carried it and it provided lots of quail and dove dinners for my new bride and I. Prior to the Trunk incident, I had bought a semi inletted stock and forend from Fajen. Birdseye maple. The shotgun went through three boys and still wears the same refinished stock that came with it. I found another 311-H (I think) in a pawn shop in like new condition that I will put the stock on for my grandson.

Since then I have acquired a number of other doubles, some shooters, some safe queens. In my later duck hunting years I stopped carrying the doubles into the brackish marsh and opted for a Rem 870 with a synthetic stock and that no rust finish (or rust resistant). It's not the same as swinging on a Bluebill with two barrels. The only one I take any more (and it gets little use) is a Zabala Bros 10 ga. It's mostly for long range cripples.

The last one I got was an old grandma Stevens 335 16 ga. She was sitting in a pawn shop surrounded by a bunch of riffraff, so I brought her home. I about wore out a nickel taking the rust off, but she's stained for life. I'll also have to break out my acraglass skills to rebuild the inletting on the buttstock so it will line up correctly.

If the quail make a comeback in South Texas I may break out the Parkers some day, but until then the old battle axes will do my work.

It is an odd thing this SxS addiction. There are just so many reasons why they are the best.

Alan

Good first post Alan. Welcome...Geo

Thanks for the welcome.

I hunted quail down in Falfurrias, TX with a gentleman one time many years ago. It was quite a production such that I had never experienced before (and never will again). He had two hunting trucks for hunters, a truck with dogs and handlers, four outriders on horseback locating coveys, and a Suburban following with lunch (full meal deal with waitstaff and cook). There were four of us switching out to hunt with each other. Three coveys then the other team's turn. As I was riding with the owner in the hunting seat on top of one of the trucks, I was holding onto my Ithaca SKB trying to keep it from rattling in the gun rack. He had two doubles in the rack that he seemed relatively unconcerned about any dings the stocks or barrels may have been getting on the bouncing around. He asked about my shotgun and I proudly told him what it was, and asked about his (because quite frankly, I could not identify them from my experience). He casually said they were a matched set of Purdey doubles. In my shock and youthful inexperience, I remarked that I wouldn't have them bouncing around in the racks like that. He simply stated that if he could not hunt with the best he would not hunt....

He let me hold them and that was the last time I ever saw, much less held, a Purdey shotgun. I haven't been on a quail hunt like that since either.

They were all pen raised flight conditioned birds and he had Chukar and Pheasant as well but we were only hunting quail that day. He had the whole operation going on that place. It was quite an experience but it further solidified my love of SXS shotguns, even though I'll never own a Purdey.

Alan

They are nice to hold now and again...

I'm looking forward to the "again", but barring some extraordinary positive changes in finances, I'll likely never purchase a shotgun that costs more than my vehicles.

Alan

One thing about it they last longer than an automobile.

NO kidding!

Alan

I get the weekly emails from Purdey. One of these days I'm going to need some of that stuff. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but I'm going to need it.

But, If a fellow was going to have just one shotgun, and shotgun hunting/shooting was going to be his only hobby.... a Purdey just might be a bargain. I have an 8'X40' storage container full of stuff I'll likely not get much use out of any more.

Alan

My father got me hooked on side bys. He a German 16 gauge made by August Schuller. He used it for trap, skeet, and dove and quail hunting. He didn't miss that often. The dang thing balanced beautifully. I had my eye on the Zephyr Woodlander, that was imported by SToeger's, and then a French 16 gauge that was imported by Ye Olde Hunter. Ended up buying a Browning Superposed Great gun, but it was big. I had two side bys after it. His 16 and a Bernardelli 20 gauge Series Uberto I. They seemed as if they were an extension of my arm. I don't see that with an over and under. I know trap shooters shoot over and unders. I am buying a Model 21 trap gun. I know I will be looked upon as a weirdo, but I just like side bys.

i saw a trim little SXS hopkins and allen 20 ga hammer gun at a flea market one saturday when i was a teen [ ~ 1967 ] ....loved the look and balance....didnt want to spend what little money i had....few years later, was left a stevens hammerless SXS by a 90 + y.o.friend [ who had no heirs ] who told me it had taken “ 2 bears, 18 deer, and countless ducks, geese, other birds, rabbits etc “ that really got me started -shot more ducks, geese, pheasant, grouse with it ....now i have parker’s, foxes, lefevers, ithaca 4 E , LC Smith’s, winchester 21’s ,baker, spanish, italian, and german guns, francotte, and drilling’s etc and.... oh yes, a few years back found an identical hopkins and allen 20 ga hammer gun... have shot grouse, chukar, and ptarmigan with it.... stepson took his first bird ever with it.... yes... i am hooked i guess : )

Shot pumps and autos as a teenager but really lusted for a Browning Midas grade superposed as shown in the color glossy catalogs of the mid 60's. Never could afford one. Then the Winchester 101's came out in the mid 70's and I bought a 12 and 20 through the base exchange overseas. Didnt shoot them well, and went back to an 1100 until I picked up a Winchester Model 23 in 1985. 12 ga, 28 in bbls and it settled into my shoulder and cheek like it was born there. I bought it on the spot for $900 with case, and never looked back. I hunted everything with it from quail to geese and shot it better than anything else I had. I sold it after I bought my first Parker, a 16 ga GHE in 1995, and got hooked on vintage doubles. Nothing seems to sit as well as a side by side. All other guns seem to me top heavy in comparison. My son shoots my Parker 16's and I think he is hooked also.

Went to Alaska gun collector's show in Anchorage in the early 80's where I discovered I could afford a couple pre-1900 SxS's. I then got a subscription to "Shotgun News" where you could find most anything that shoots! A paragraph description and telephone number and asking price (no photos). Really good traders. I bought and traded and had a blast untill business/kids/life caused a many year break!
I'm back now!

Glad you're back...I shot vintage too because that's all I could afford.

Truth is I'd rather had a new one.

I began hunting squirrels with a single shot 22 while in high school but wanted a SXS. However, my dad bought me a new 12 gauge single shot Winchester M37 for Christmas so I hunted pheasants with that for the next few years. I still wanted a SXS and ended up trading a rifle I had for a single trigger 12 gauge LC Smith SXS. A beautiful gun to look at but a big mistake, it kept spontaneously discharging. I took it to a so called “gunsmith” and he charged me $75 to “repair” it. Life got in the way after that and I never did get a chance to use it and ended up selling it to a guy I worked with. Fortunately, I gave him a copy of the repair receipt. We went our separate ways until a few years later when we became reacquainted and he told me the story of how the gun, while lying in his lap in a duck blind, had spontaneously fired both barrels with the recoil flinging it into the adjoining swamp. Only because he had the repair receipt and knew that I’d not used the gun since I’d had it repaired saved me from trouble. My next SXS was a 16 gauge Stevens 5100, in terrible cosmetic shape that I purchased for $35. Before I worked it over I took it to the trap range to try out. I was teamed with two other shooters both with beautiful O/U’s. They both looked at me and my SXS with complete disdain. I was embarrassed and mentioned that I hadn’t fired a shotgun in 15 years. They then looked as if someone in their midst (me) had stepped in dog crap. I went on to shoot a respectable 21 while they shot a 7 and an 8. The next round I shot a 22 and they still shot in single digits. I turned around after my last shot and they’d both disappeared! Unfortunately, I sold that old Stevens and it wasn’t until a lifetime friend called in 1998 and asked me to go pheasant hunting with him in SD (using a borrowed shotgun) that I again became hooked on pheasant hunting. In about 2001 purchased a 12 gauge Parker VH. It’s been 18 years now, I sold the Parker years ago and have run through about 20 SXS’s including hammer guns and the whole gauntlet of gauges from a 10 gauge to several .410s. For a while I had several “keepers” including a true 36 gauge percussion SXS, a well-worn British .410 hammer gun SXS, and a super lightweight French 16 gauge guild gun. In 2004 cancer reared its ugly head taking, in 2011, not only my wife/best friend of nearly 42 years but also nearly everything else I owned fighting it. The only SXS I was able to hang on to was my 16 gauge French guild gun. Today the only SXS’s I have are the 16 gauge French guild gun, a 12 gauge Pedersoli SXS ML, a 13 gauge Belgium SXS ML, and a nice svelte .410 SXS that I crafted from an incredibly ugly Brazilian made Rossi (my Sow’s ear project that I posted about back in 2012).

Steve

PS nice thread you started Joe. As you can see the 13 gauge ML I had that you were interested in is still for sale!

Steve I'm truly sorry to hear of your loss.

Thanks but no thanks on the muzzle loader I graduated muzzle loaders several years back.

Enjoyed your story, Steve. Are you still traveling about, or have you "grounded" someplace specific for now?

Best to you, SRH

I'm still traveling about the country. I spend winters in SE Arizona (Sierra Vista area) and the rest of the year traveling the US and Canada.

Steve

Steve, do you hunt Mearn's down there? When I lived in Tucson, I hunted Gamble's a little but should have gone after Mearns instead. I hear the populations are doing fairly well this year.

Good to hear you're still "roading" some, Steve. I wish you continued health and enjoyment in those pursuits.

I've hunted Gamble's, just outside the city limits (I assume ...... a public place called Rail X) of Tucson. Next time I make it out there to visit my son we are supposed to drive aways and try for Mearn's in a different location.

Desert hunting is fun.

SRH

I've told you all before that my Dad and uncles and cousins all used pumps and autoloaders, and my first shotgun was an extremely tightly choked Savage hammerless single shot model 220 20 gauge. My uncle had one N.R. Davis double that hung on the wall above his reloading bench, and he explained that he never used it because it was too heavy, and three different gunsmiths weren't able to cure its' habit of doubling.

But there was an old German gunsmith who had a shop and gun store a short two mile bike ride from my Dad's house, and I spent a lot of time there looking at his guns, mostly stuff that seemed remotely affordable in the used gun rack. He was an ex-Armorer in the Nazi army in WWII, and I often heard him extolling the virtues of certain guns to customers in his thick German accent. One day, after he saw me looking at a German double that he had tried to sell to a customer, he came over and exclaimed in broken English, "These guns... all junk! You want see nice guns? I show you nice guns!" He took me into his shop and I soon saw that this three story building was literally crammed with thousands of guns.

The ones he really wanted to show me were guns like you'd find in the NRA Museum... extremely ornate doubles, cape guns, drillings, and vierlings... stuff like I'd never seen. He had these museum pieces stacked like so much cordwood. He explained that part of his job as an Armorer in the Nazi army was to scrap weapons confiscated by the German Army when they rolled through European towns and villages. They posted notices that any civilians who didn't surrender their weapons would be executed if caught. He said he was to remove the wood stocks and burn them, and to crush the actions or receivers in a press so they couldn't be recaptured and used against the Germans. The scrap guns were shipped to steel mills to be melted down to produce new war materials. He told me, "Oh, I scrap a lot of very nice guns... but really nice ones, I stashed and after the war, I come to United States and my brother smuggle them here to me." It boggles the mind to think he was able to smuggle so many guns into the U.S. back then when people here stress out about importing one or two guns today. And he had to have some real guts and cunning to conceal this booty from his officers in the Nazi army.

Now, these pieces weren't anything like Dad's Model 870 or my Savage. These were works of the gunmaker's art with gorgeous highly figured wood, ornate full coverage engraving, gold and ivory inlays, intricate carving, etc. Guns like that leave a lasting impression on a kid, or a grown man. And my eyes were opened to see that all doubles weren't heavy bulky implements like that N.R. Davis with the doubling problem. And that is where my addiction began. Raise a kid on black guns and pumps, and that is the road they will likely travel. Show them quality, and history, and real craftsmanship, and they just might take a different path.

Keith, this is a great thread jOe started and what an interesting start on vintage guns you got. Lucky you. I was raised on pumps. Specifically M12's. Nothing but. Shot a M12 16 gauge mostly through my teens. Then when I was about 20, I got a new Wingmaster in 12 ga. Used those two guns for the next 25 years. Then, one day, for whatever reason, I started looking at the old double my father had, but had never used. "It doubles....can't use it" was always the response when my brothers and I would ask about it. Which frankly wasn't often.

Shortly after picking up that old double for the first time in several decades, I met a gunsmith, who later I found out was an acquaintance of CJO, while trying to find someone to properly install a pad. The first "smith", and I use that term loosely, had botched the job terribly. When in this second smith's shop he and I started talking and he showed me a couple doubles that were in process for restoration. My eyes bugged out. I didn't know what they were but they were beautiful! Could not believe these old worn out beaters could be made to look so good.

I went home and talked to my brother (and main hunting partner) about what I'd seen and we grabbed my father's double and took it back to the smith. "Do your stuff" we said. And four months later we presented it back to my father, completely restored and with the doubling fixed properly. I didn't know it at the time but CJO had done the barrel blueing and CCH, so my introduction to this sort of thing involved the highest quality of work.

My dad loved the "new" gun. Sadly, it was only about 4 years later that he badly injured one eye in a rogue squash (the game) accident and at 80, decided to hang up shooting for good. He gave me the gun, which turned out to be a Fox A grade from 1909. It had been bought new by his grandfather. By that time however, I was well on my way to the full scale SxS affliction.

I was just with CJO last week and were talking about this exact subject. Funnily enough, it was a botched pad installation that got CJO started as well. We took different routes. "Someone must be able to do this properly" I said. "I could do better than that" said Claudio. Hahahaha! Rest is history.

My first double, other than dad's Ranger .410, was a Prussian Guild 16 ga., 1930's era that I bought in the mid 1970s. It was a fine dove gun. I knew nothing about low pressure loads (or shell lengths) and shot what I could find on a local gunshop's shelves. Next up was a graded and cased Francotte VL&D 12 ga. with engraved side plates with nice wood. Never could match up a model number as information wasn't as readily available as it is now. If I had to guess with what I know now, closest would be the A&F 25. I no longer have either of them. The Francotte launched a one gun theme of buying high and selling low. I've avoided that trend by not selling my guns other than the next one. Next up was a 1938 Ithaca NID 3.5" 10 that I bought from Thad Scott in either the late 70's or early 80's. I used it for turkeys when 10 gauges were the rage. I sold it to a friend later and in the past 5 years after it had been gone for maybe 20 years, traded back for it. Gil

As a youngster, for some reason, I was enthralled by the looks of a sxs shotgun. An uncle of mine was a bit of a horse trader and for a brief period of time had a 10 ga sxs that fascinated me and he subscribed to a variety of outdoor magazines, which back in the early 60's had lots of advertisements for firearms. I'd look at the photos of the various sxs and wish I owned one.

Later on my dad received a Remington 1900 12 ga as payment for letting some guy graze his horse on our land. I kept bugging him to let me have the 1900. He eventually relented and I had my 1st sxs shotgun. It was a bit of a beater and I ran every kind of shell through it save 3" and eventually the poorly patched grip area of the stock broke completely. I eventually built a stock for it from a blank, did some needed work on it and still have it, although I very seldom use it.


Now, the majority of my hunting guns are sxs, although I do have some waterfowl guns that are not.

Yes James, every trip to that old gunsmith's shop was either entertaining or educational. But who knew, at age 14, that every ex-German soldier who emigrated to the U.S. was a Nazi war criminal? I was probably quite irresponsible, at age 14, for not contacting Simon Wisenthal and his Nazi hunters to bring this war criminal to justice. His wife, who took care of most of the paperwork, did look and sound something like Hitler whenever she was screaming at him, so who knows what dark sinister secrets he was hiding?

I was always under the impression, that when the German Wermacht took their Blitzkrieg storming through neighboring countries, they disarmed all of the conquered civilian populace.

What a great forum this is!

I've sometimes thought it might be interesting to start a Thread about unusual gun shops, and old Gene's place was certainly one of them. Over the years, I got to know him pretty well, and he took the time to teach me some gunsmithing techniques such as spring making and tempering. I wish I'd gotten him to teach me more. He was very old school, and had several gallon jugs of Sperm Whale Oil for his tempering, long after that product became impossible to get due to restrictions on whaling. Red hot steel quenched in whale oil has a very distinctive smell. Almost every time I went there, I'd walk out laughing or shaking my head. Imagine being in a quiet gun shop looking at a rack of used guns, while the gunsmith was at the other end of the store examining a customers malfunctioning .30-06. Then without any warning, he poked the barrel down and fired a test shot into a hole in the floor, down into a large box of sand in the basement. That was mild compared to a few other things I saw there. The story about him and the loaded Broomhandle Mauser full automatic pistol he kept under the counter for robbers comes to mind...

Well, this has certainly been an Enlightening thread.

A high percentage of the older drillings in this country were brought back as Souvineers by US soldiers in Germany during WWII. Why not the Nazi's had already relieved the Civilians of them the GI's didn't steal them, they captured them from the Nazi's. I've got a couple of old drillings myself, I acquire it from an in-between & never knew or even met the man who brought it back. I would not have the foggiest idea of how to find who the Nazi's took it from. Have another old drilling I bought from a gun shop & have no idea of its history. It may, or may not, have been a spoil of War.

Incidentally, Keith, Great Story, enjoyed it immensely.

I'm not one to defend Keith and his antics. But his story is a very good one. Had Keith been involved in glass blowing, and his German mentor had a collection of German glass blown statues, would there be the same objection?

There were a lot of Germans after the war who had fought in the German Army and wound up here. One of my Geography professors at the University of Alabama was one of them...he marched to Moscow and back. He led expeditions of masters' candidates into the Amazon for years where there was always a "Casa Alimanas" out in the middle of nowhere. And there were the professionals such as Werner Von Braun.

I'm not one to defend Nazis. My father was killed in Normandy. But not all Germans were Nazi party members or members of the SS or SA. And the old fellow does seem to have been very interesting and professional gunsmith.