looking for published data for various 12 gauge black powder loads...

as i recall, 1000 fps is about what one can expect out of 30" barrels, regardless of load?

Huh?

You can match just about any velocity with 3F black powder that you can achieve with almost any smokeless shotgun powder. Sherman Bell has published several. Just by looking at the 10 gauge loads listed on the Parker forum there are heavier (1 1/4 oz) loads of around 1300 fps.

You could easily achieve even higher velocities (if you felt the need to) with lighter shot loads using the same powder charges.

In his series of articles he did 12 gauge testing as well, but I am not about to rifle through old articles to find them at the moment. Sherman Bell did point out though that modern black powder shooters are much too conservative in their loads. Using stout charges of 3F "sporting" powder such as Swiss, more closely matched the powders and loads 19th century shot gunners were using.

It's not for lacking velocity as to why black powder fell out of favor.

Supposedly the "Drams Equivalent" markings we still see on many shotshell boxes were based on using an amount of smokeless that would give a velocity equal to that amount of Black.

I wasn't around 125 years ago but some say that modern Black Powder is not the equal to what it was back then. Supposedly Black Powder peaked in its strength & effestiveness in the late 1800's & has gone in decline since.

This is from an old article on blackpowder shotgun shells:



http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Midway used to carry Goex Black Dawge factory loaded shells in 12ga at 1050fps, but those appear to be discontinued.

Midway used to carry Goex Black Dawge factory loaded shells in 12ga at 1050fps, but those appear to be discontinued. [/quote]

this place sells BP loads, not the ones mentioned above.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/obsolete-hard-to-find-ammunition/shotgun-ammo

I have a few boxes of their stuff, but i don't think they publish velocities.

Now this is more like it.
The reference to dram equivalent says it all.

On another forum I got howled down & made to appear as a dangerous idiot for claiming 1250 fps with 7/8 oz of shot is easily achievable from 12g black powder cartridges, or even a muzzle loader.

Their opinion was that after 1000 fps the pressure was too high & you start to push chit uphill with a pointy stick.

Just listen for when the report starts to go from whoomph to crack.
O.M

How can this be lost knowledge?

The literature is replete with black powder information.

It's difficult to believe that modern production black is in any way inferior to what was available pre-smokeless.

The chemistry is still the same, certainly we can still get the fuels to fully react with the oxidizer.

I would think that with modern chemical analysis the charcoal part (which is the critical part) could be much better controlled today than then.

Personally, I cook steaks with charcoal and shoot with nitro.

Black powder and blow torches don't go good together Edward....

Unfortunately that is just not the case, well at least to a large extent. Several individuals (Sherman Bell, Ross Seyfried, and others) have done extensive testing with modern black powders and have found them to be severely lacking to what was available to shooters in the 19th century.

Even without obviously having original blackpowder to test, what they do have is the documented original loads which were used, specifically for double rifles, where the type and amount of powder is extremely critical for regulation.

While blackpowder my seem simple, the composition, source, and quality of it's three ingredients can widely vary between makers today.

I first read about this in a series of articles on firearms propellants published by the American Rifleman, back when it was still a Shooter's Mag. As I recall one of the major factors was the Charcoal used. Willow was one of the preferred woods for Charcoal for powder. There was another which was higher regarded but was native to the UK I believe & I forget its name now.

In those days powder makers & made, or had made, charcoal to their specs. I highly suspect that many "Modern" makers of black powder simply use commercially produced hardwood charcoal. Yes it will go bang & put out smoke, but it doesn't reach the peak of that made a century ago.

Look at the velocity specs put out for the 1873 models of .45 Colt & the .45-70 Springfield by the U S Army. Even admitting that today we have solid head cases rather than the old balloon head cases which were used originally & held a tad more powder, the original velocities simply cannot be reached with present day Black.

The old standard 3-1 1/8 12 gauge load gave about 1200 fps @ 15 feet. This is generally un-obtainable with modern powder unless a heavier charge is used. Never-the-less I have always loaded by the equal volume method for shotguns & had satisfactory performance. Volume for 1 1/8 oz of shot will give about 2 13/16 drams of black or 77 grains rather than the 3 dram load of 82 grains. "IF" one points the gun right it will still kill reliably but is not equal in power to the old original loads.

Re velocity, I pulled out an old (1990) copy of The Complete Black Powder Handbook by Sam Fadala, and he says on pg 192:
"My 12 gauge mentioned above loaded with 1-1/2 ounces of shot and 100 grains volume of FFg blackpowder or RS Pyrodex gains a muzzle velocity of close to 1200 fps." Later in that paragraph he says that dropping the shot charge to 1-1/4 oz adds about 100 fps to velocity. Sounds just like a modern nitro load of 1-1/4 oz. He used an Oehler Model 35P proof chronograph, as described on page 50.

3 5/8 drams = 99 grains. 3 3/4 drams = 102.5 grains. Did he state what brand of powder he was using. Data in a Lyman Black Powder handbook did not meet these figures, but were slower.

A modern day 3 3/4 DE-1¼ oz load is supposed to give about 1330 fps, so this is indeed right in the same range. Some would depend of course on the exact placement of the screens which would vary the velocity a bit if at a different distance from the muzzle.

I did not see his chrono setup for shotguns, but I think he used 15 ft for his muzzle loading rifles. I did not see any specific brand recommendations for BP, but Fadala likes only FFg or Pyrodex for shotguns. His book concentrates on rifles and pistols. I thought I had a Lyman BP book, but no idea where it is.

Pyrotechnicians make much of their blackpowder and conduct contests to see whose is the strongest or best for various effects. In the forum I am on, charcoal seems to be the key and many woods and methods to char them have been tried. Of course milling, corning, glazing, and screening are also important.

When I was a serious competitor in m/l rifle competition I screened every bit of the black I used in matches. I had two screens that it went through. One sifted out the very large kernels by not letting them pass through. Then I took what passed through and sifted it through another finer mesh that allowed the fines to pass through and retained the "medium" sized particles. The very coarse stuff was used for in my shotgun, the very fine was either discarded or given to someone who shot flint. I got very consistent velocities with this sifted powder, usually Dupont GOEX. I have a 14 lb., .45 cal. roundball longrifle (buffalo gun, for those of you who know what that is), that I built, that will shoot 5/8" five shot groups at 100 yds. on a good day. I attribute part of that to the sifted powder.


Screening by the user, for a shotgun, is worse than useless, IMO. It's a total waste of time. I do understand that the poster was referring to screening at the manufacturing facility, before packaging and shipping, but in reality they do not do a very good job of it. There are particles of extremely varying size in a can of black.

SRH

No I was posting about amateur fireworks makers. But yes, the steps are important for commercial operations as well. Blackpowder is to pyrotechnicians what flour is to bakers.

In my Lyman BP Handbook for 12ga, fiber wads, 2F powder:
3.75 Drams, 1oz/shot- 1422fps
same but 1 1/8oz - 1355fps
same but 1 1/4oz - 1250
same but 1 1/2oz - 1100
Strangely enough if plastic wads were used velocities fell. Go figure that if plastic wads seal better there should be higher velocities - at least I think. Better stop doing that.

Example from a pyro site:

The balsa burned at 0.98 seconds (average of 3 sample tests) in the 12" timing trough and the Paulownia beat it out at 0.82 seconds average per foot. All batches identical except for charcoal. Should make some dandy black match or burst.

Pawlonia is often mentioned as a good wood to char for BP.

Paul;
Note the 1250 fps given in the Lyman book is 94% of the normally stated 1330 fps for a 3 3/4 DE - 1¼ oz load. This does not of course mean that modern day Black Powders are Bad, just they they often do not quite reach the potential of those from a century ago.

I can offer no explanation as to why the velocity fell with plastic wads. I am old enough that I began reloading in card & fiber days. In those days loads were simply listed as X grains of a given power for Y oz of shot. Hull brand or primer was not listed, other than back then R/P hulls used a different size than the 209 everyone else used.

When plastic obturating wads came on the market we were simply advised to reduce powder charge by 10%. It was several years before loads began to be listed by Specific components.

Black Powder does have the unique quality of burning at essentially the same rate regardless of outside influnces so I doubt this 10% reduction would apply with Black. Plastic wads are not generally recommended for use with Black as its higher temps tend to melt the plastic which can cause a sticky mess in the bore. Perhaps something related to this caused the lower velocities.

Years back one time I used plastic wads with BP. It was 150 shots in a one day shoot. The gun started kicking harder at the end. Opening the barrels and looking down - ah, big long worms were growing in my barrels. You couldn't see daylight at the other end. It took quite awhile to clean them. Finally used a tornado brush with a drill motor on the end of a cleaning rod to get the plastic out. A year or two back I had loaded up some 100gr/1oz loads. Man, the recoil and report were different. I was shooting skeet and those loads just seemed to totally break the birds instantly. I usually keep from 6 to 8 boxes of smoke in the closet at the club just in case they're needed. I have papers in my notebook with loads just showing the powder and shot - nothing said about primers or wads, which were fiber, of course. Things seemed easier back then.