Anyone else tired of seeing every mundane LC Smith counted out to some level of uniqueness?
1 of 6 with the same scene on both plates ??? How about “standard late pre-13 production engraving?”

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101082136

“The quality of the stock suggests a factory replacement”. Ha. Far from it!
Beavertail forend???

And how would the seller know that only 6 guns were made with matching engraving on the plates? I really want to know where some of these guys cone up with this stuff!

Just another example of someone puffing something up to tey and grab an un-knowing buyer.

The water in Michigan makes people say strange things-----

Although Grade 3E 20-bore Smith guns are a bit on the uncommon side, how the seller can verify his claim that only six examples were produced in the engraving motif depicted on the gun is beyond me. I've done quite a bit of research on the LC Smith gun and surviving records, and there's nothing in any of the surviving shipping ledger records giving the researcher any indication as to how each grade, or an individual gun within the listed grades may have been engraved; and for the record there's several variations of Hunter's Grade 3 engraving pattern known to exist besides the style seen on this example. So I call total bull crap on the "only six exist" claim. As a collector all I see in this example is a well-used Grade 3 with a replaced and incorrectly checkered butt stock, burred screws, and no case color remaining shooter built on a feather weight frame with optional ejectors and HOT single trigger. If the drop at heel is 3 1/2" as claimed; don't see this gun as a good shooter either.

I'd rather have a Dickinson than that semi-p.o.s.
JR

Mark21,

Some of what you say is true however the #3 guns were all made to order and hand engraved, no production line engraving what so ever, prior to 1913. There were different versions of the engraving available and if requested special engraving was available, by Spangler or Kraus, Hunter Arms Master Engravers.

topgun,
Never say never when it come to L.C. Smith guns, they filled more special orders than any other gun company in history.

Although I have to agree with you, what makes this gun kind of special, is that it happens to be a 20 gauge gun, with special ordered, identical Quail Scene engraving on both sidelocks, seldom produced. It also has been worked on and the Chambers have been opened to 2 3/4, from the original 2 9/16. Although the gun is selling for a premium cost, I would estimate the value of this particular #3 L.C. Smith to be right at $8,200. Which gives the owner some room to come down in cost, if somebody knowledgable wants to make a legitimate offer. I would need to see the stock close up in person, to determine whether it is original or not.

Further if the owner has a letter form the Cody Museum they may have given him an idea of exactly how many 20 Gauge #3 guns were made, they do have an approximate number on record, however the record will not reflect any of the executive guns or railroad guns, that were produced prior to 1913. All documented paper work/sales receipts on these particular guns, was shipped with the gun to the original owners/businesses. No other documentation will exist on those particular guns, and as John Houchins learned some of those guns are seriously nice.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

And the chambers should be 2.5 unless factory marked!

Mark II,

In that era 2 3/4 shells did not exist, unless special made.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

There you go, fellas-8K to buy into that one.

Step right up. I'm 'gonna sit this one out, I guess.


Best,
Ted

Well, you can buy it then at that price Dave. You better get the check written and in the mail.

No need to examine it in person, i can tell from my house that the buttstock is not factory.

It is amazing what some try to explain away under the “special order” and the “never say never” umbrella.

B. Dudley,

I already own a good #3 gun, and you or anyone else can not tell if Hunter Arms replaced the original stock with this particular stock. If the correct Hunter Arms numbers are on the stock in the correct place, it's a Hunter Arms factory replacement, making the gun a Hunter Arms original. If not the stock was replaced by some else.

Then again maybe you have Superman vision.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

"The only successful American Sidelock from the Golden Era of gun making."

When was it determined that Baker was unsuccessful.

It is all about form, fit and finish than anything. Period. IF numbers are present on something like this, it means NOTHING. It isn’t like factory workers are the only ones with number punches.

Now, if it had a bunch of horridly carved oak leaves in the wood, then maybe that could be factory work...

Amateur restock and not a very good one either. Look at the bottom of the stock where it meets the action....just terrible.

The only thing missing is the part where you put the lock plates on a turn table, run them backwards with the needle on 'em and hear the voice of Rudy Kornbrath tell the story of how he engraved the gun for TR.

Trust me. I've got a good feeling about this one!!

Circus barkers and gun dealers are just about equal in hype for their jobs. Look at the gun not the rant of a description. That stock is not factory. The bottom fingers are so thick they took a chisel and beveled them down to the metal. They never sent a field grade out of the factory like that much less a graded gun.

I think there was a typo above, clearly it was meant to say “8k TOO HIGH”

"Some of what you say is true however the #3 guns were all made to order and hand engraved, no production line engraving what so ever, prior to 1913. There were different versions of the engraving available and if requested special engraving was available, by Spangler or Kraus, Hunter Arms Master Engravers.

topgun,
Never say never when it come to L.C. Smith guns, they filled more special orders than any other gun company in history.

Although I have to agree with you, what makes this gun kind of special, is that it happens to be a 20 gauge gun, with special ordered, identical Quail Scene engraving on both sidelocks, seldom produced. It also has been worked on and the Chambers have been opened to 2 3/4, from the original 2 9/16. Although the gun is selling for a premium cost, I would estimate the value of this particular #3 L.C. Smith to be right at $8,200. Which gives the owner some room to come down in cost, if somebody knowledgable wants to make a legitimate offer. I would need to see the stock close up in person, to determine whether it is original or not.

Further if the owner has a letter form the Cody Museum they may have given him an idea of exactly how many 20 Gauge #3 guns were made, they do have an approximate number on record, however the record will not reflect any of the executive guns or railroad guns, that were produced prior to 1913. All documented paper work/sales receipts on these particular guns, was shipped with the gun to the original owners/businesses. No other documentation will exist on those particular guns, and as John Houchins learned some of those guns are seriously nice."

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


RGD
First of all, I respectfully ask how you were appointed the "L.C. Smith Man"? I'm asking because several other individuals have laid claim that moniker and I surely don't want to confuse you with one of those other individuals.

As to some of your comments above, in my research and in my capacity as a Board member of the LC Smith Collectors Association, I believe I can claim I've seen and studied as many Grade 3 LC's as anyone; and although all Grade 3 guns were considered "special orders" because the Grade 3 was not a standard stock inventory gun, there's nothing special about the engraving on the subject gun. Birds on either lock plate was the standard Grade 3 engraving pattern at one point in the production of the Pre-1913 Grade 3 Smith gun produced after 1900, while at other times during this period the birds were engraved inside an oval; which oval pattern was laid out using a brass template. When placing his order the customer could certainly select the bird species he wanted, so one will observe a certain amount of variety; but always two birds, and very little variation otherwise. Prior to 1900 there was quite a bit of variation in Grade 3 engraving patterns; but the pattern on this gun is the typical, no oval pattern, found on many pre-13 Smith gun produced after 1900. Of the Grade 3 Smith guns I've observed, 98% or more featured Grade 3 standard engraving; and most of the Grade 3 "special" order guns I've seen featured custom stock work (one Grade 3 gun featured custom checkering and ribbon work identical to the much more costly Monogram Grade). To date I've never seen a Grade 3 with special ordered engraving that made that gun really unique; and for what it's worth, my policy as a researcher is to never say never.

As to Cody letters, anyone who is serious about having a meaningful letter on his Smith gun should get that letter from Jim Stubbendieck via the LC Smith Collectors Association. The LCSCA has a complete copy of the original Smith gun shipping ledgers; and once those records were received, Jim devoted hundreds and hundreds of hours researching and compiling the information from every ledger entry. The result is that he can verify the numbers of guns produced in every grade, as well as all gun details that might make a gun of any grade unique; and on post 1919 era Smith guns, Jim can verify all factory options each gun shipped with, as well as ID all unique guns within that grade range. For instance, from Jim's research we now know one 0E Grade 14-bore was produced, and that a special ordered Field Grade was shipped with 34" barrels; neither of which gun is a high grade, but "one-offs" and rare nonetheless. With an LCSCA letter Jim provides one with all relevant and interesting grade details in his response, which information will never be included in a Cody letter.

I see your reference above to "executive guns" and "railroad guns" and John Houchins. I've not heard the term "railroad gun" before but have seen a Smith gun with the name of a rail company engraved on the top rib, so perhaps such a gun as that is your reference? I've heard the term "executive guns" many times, and may have owned an example personally; but thus far we have only unsubstantiated rumor of such guns, although I'll admit such rumored activities by the Hunter Brothers often seems plausible, as I've personally observed many grades entries in the original ledgers that do not correspond with the grade designation on the actual gun. One recent example is the Grade A3 gun (the "Pratt" gun) up for sale in a recent Morphy's auction; which in the original ledgers, is recorded as an A2. Obviously all order forms and sales receipts would have been shipped to the purchaser with the gun, and would have been information too voluminous to retain in a single line shipping ledger entry; but as only the shipping ledgers have survived, rumors must be considered rumors until such time as someone comes forward with actual documentation to prove otherwise.

I honestly don't know you from Adam RGD, but your comment "as John Houchins learned some of those guns are seriously nice", leads me to believe you are referring to the A4 Grade noted in his book. John and I were friends and I assisted him on some parts of his book; and for what it's worth, it was yours truly who located the old Kraus engraving schedule referencing a "Grade A4". I can tell you that an exhaustive search of the original shipping ledgers finds zero reference to any Grade A4 gun; but your comment causes me to wonder if you're the individual who called me years ago about a great grandfather whose six Smith guns were stolen by family members and sold along the way to Utah. If so I vividly recall your account and description of a very special Grade A4 Smith gun having been in that lot, as well as the serial number; and that you had made it your life's mission to recover that family heirloom. If you are that individual, then I sincerely hope you have been successful. Tom Archer

Ok seriously. I am not trying to be rude or silly. I have made many mistakes on “sweet” bastard guns. I have found that what it once was and/ or should have been is irrelevant to the reality of its present condition. I have also found that for the most part few people will venture much past $2000 on medium grade “shooters” with issues.
So is there anyone here that would give $2500 on that one?
I also do my research and the last two respectable 20ga 3E guns I saw were very respectable and in the 6500 asking price range. ( and they didn’t fly off the web at that price. )

Tom Archer,

I kind of inherited the L.C. Smith Man from Walt Schiessl when he passed. I use it to honor his memory, he wanted it that way. I respect your organization however doubt I will ever join. With Walt and John's help I have recovered a few of our family stolen guns, the search still goes on for others. If you happen to run across some of the guns we talked about, I would appreciate being notified. I do miss Walt and John very much.

It seems you gentlemen now put your L.C. Smith Collectors Group above the Cody Museum, I definitely know what Walt Schiessl would say.

Take care

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

2piper,

Baker was successful, especially with the L.C. Smith Made for Baker Hammer Guns, however Baker never produced any where near the amount of guns that Hunter Arms manufactured. Without Baker however, there may not have been a L.C. Smith Hunter Arms Company.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Dudley,

Always actually verify what you think before making your decisions, especially where L.C. Smith guns are concerned, always back up what you think with actual documented proof.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

RGD,
Compare a Cody letter to Jim's letter on the same gun and your opinion of the "first" L C Smith Man will change

Laxcoach,

You have missed the point completely.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Dave, just exactly what is the point that Laxcoach missed?

I have conversed with you on another site and I can't remember which one it was, but I don't frequent that site. I had asked you about a few of the guns Tom had mentioned and never really got an answer back. I'm pretty sure that when you meant railroad you were probably also meaning Simmons Steel.

Also Tom (Archer) knows more than anyone I know about L.C. Smith's and I have learned a great deal from him.

David Williamson,

Because I am still searching for some of those guns you will not get an answer to your questions. I used the word railroad guns and yes meaning the Simmons Steel and others also.

No doubt Tom Archers knows a lot about L.C. Smith guns, never said he didn't.

The point is the Cody Museum is the recognized home of the L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms Historical Record, not the L.C. Smith Collectors Club. Whether the Cody Museum decides to give a big formal letter or a small one, is irrelevant.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

You putting Smiths up on a pedistal as the most superior in engineering/quality AND also suggesting that the stock on that gun being factory are in DIRECT contradiction to each other.

And I would invite you to take your own advise and back up the claims that you make with “actual documented proof”.

RGD,

You are no more the LC Smith Man than Walt was...or I..or the guy down the street.

Mr. Archer and Mr. Williamson on the other hand are the real deal.

And, If Mr. Dudley says its not an original stock, he's right.

These guys have credibility. You don't. Please go away and quit driving the name of my favorite shotgun into the ground.

Tom Archer and others...you may have missed some intermittent threads of the past couple weeks, and therefore haven't yet realized that Ryman Gun Dog is the same guy as...

Beans
Pine Creek/Dave
RGD/Dave

...and perhaps a couple others I can't recall. He's been "Troll #1" on a slew of forums over the last few years. It never takes long for him to get pissy with everyone, because he throws around fake information interwoven with SOME true but very basic stuff. And the moment he's questioned on it he gets very defensive and starts telling everyone they don't know anything.

He's "lectured" Tom Williamson and others on all manner of LC Smith stuff on one thread I can recall, and he berated almost everyone on the Lefever forum about a year ago when people attempted to set him straight on his "1,000 Grade Lefever." Made a grand total of 8 posts, then dropped the mic and walked off stage. Lit the place on fire.

At the time I didn't recognize him as "Beans," and genuinely thought he was just a confused -- if, cantankerous -- guy. But it's obvious he's legitimately deluded.

Ask him to explain about the "entire set of silver breech LC Smiths which were a gift to his family from John Hunter." (!!!)

Then make some popcorn, put some good music on, sit back and read. He's the Andy Kaufman of gun forums.

He is exceptionally good at pissing people off. It would just be funny if he weren't so darned offensive. Plus, people come on here to actually LEARN stuff, so it doesn't help if what they "learn" is just the ramblings of an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic.

- Nudge

Nudge,

As usual you are the troll, you have no idea what you are talking about. However you love to attack people personally. I belong to only 3 sports forums, you are an ass. With a big mouth and no brains.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Beans,

"As usual" as in...over the last couple posts since I figured out who you were and said so?

You don't know me and I've never engaged you in conversation until last week, and for about 2 posts when you blew up on the Lefever forum. But I'm willing to bet many people on here know YOU...and just haven't put 2 and 2 together yet.

16ga society
28ga society
shooting sportsman

Yer all over the place dropping nuggets of misinformation and fake expertise. The world of gun forums is smaller than you think, Beans. You can't spin a web of crazy and think those comments won't catch up to you.

You were doing fine on here for about a week until you started with all the bombastic rudeness.

If you spent as much time actually studying/reading/researching information as you do doling out nonsense, you'd probably have learning a thing or three by now. YES, we know you've heard of Brophy and Hutchins. Both friends of your family, as I recall reading? Brophy interviewed your family, or something, before writing one of his books?


- NDG

Phunter,
You said what I was thinking throughout this whole thread, and was on the verge of saying myself!
As to the Cody vs LCSCA letter, yesterday I received an email copy of a Cody letter from a seller on a gun I was considering buying---the statistics are as follows:
Grade 2
20 gauge
manufactured 1909
30" barrels
Having been collecting Smiths for 19 years and lettering every gun that I have purchased (all pre-'13s) the following is a standard letter I would expect from the LCSCA after having scrutinized the pictures of that same gun:
Grade 2E
Ejectors
20 Gauge
manufactured 1909
30" barrels
date shipped
serial number
when ordered
where shipped (if recorded)
inspectors name(")
stock dimensions
barrel type (material)
total production by gauge
the letter would close with an extensive discussion of the history of the gauge, engraving available, kind of wood, and available variations in the above. ALL THIS IN ABOUT A ONE WEEK TURNAROUND!!!!
RGD, Keep beating Walt's and Cody's drum !!!!!

Phunter,

Do yourself a big favor and learn more about L.C. Guns before you shoot off your big uneducated mouth, about people you do not know or have never had actual contact with, especially Walt Schiessl and myself. Your little brother hood of fools does not intimidate me what so ever. I will not take personal insult from you or any other member of this forum who believe they have some kind of credibility. Especially guys like this Psyco Nudge and his buddies.


Get bent.

XLax,

I will keep referencing Walt's and the Cody Museum. Believe it. Bill Brophy set the Cody Museum up to be the Historical Record keeper of L.C. Smith Hunter Arms Company, seems lot of people are now jealous of that fact.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Click on the second photo. Clearly the wood is beveled in two different areas, along the trigger and by the end of the action. It allowed more wood to be left on the lower stock and fingers but is not factory at all. To claim this is factory is gibberish.

"I kind of inherited the L.C. Smith Man from Walt Schiessl when he passed. I use it to honor his memory, he wanted it that way. I respect your organization however doubt I will ever join. With Walt and John's help I have recovered a few of our family stolen guns, the search still goes on for others. If you happen to run across some of the guns we talked about, I would appreciate being notified. I do miss Walt and John very much.

It seems you gentlemen now put your L.C. Smith Collectors Group above the Cody Museum, I definitely know what Walt Schiessl would say."

RDG
First of all, I still have the number of your stolen "A4" and would recognize the gun immediately if it ever came to my attention; but to date I've not seen the gun, or heard any rumors that it may have surfaced. As to the explanation of the "L.C. Smith Man" moniker, thanks for the clarification. I've not corresponded with Brother Walt since 2003 and had no idea he'd passed; so I hope he is resting in peace. Many people did indeed recognize Walt as THE L.C. Smith authority; and I was one of those people until I began doing my own serious research on the Smith gun. I never met Brother Walt personally and I hope you understand that what I am about to relate is not to disparage his memory; but simply relate a personal experience and why I don't consider Walt Schiessl the Smith gun authority he claimed to. When I acquired my 1901 vintage Special Grade LC Smith depicted in the Houchins book (maybe an A4?), I wanted to learn all I could about that gun, and Brother Walt was the first person I reached out too. I sent him a number of detailed photos and asked for his professional opinion as to the engraver. Walt hand wrote a long and detailed response (which I still have) and declared that "it was his learned opinion that my gun was engraved by none other than Charles Jerred, Jr." Quite honestly I was flabbergasted at the response I'd received, because anyone who'd done the most basic research on L.C. Smith engravers would have known Charles Jerred never worked at the gunworks until 1946; and further, since Charles Jerred, Jr. wasn't even born until 1928, he wasn't even a gleam in his old man's eyeballs in 1901 when the Special was built. So perhaps you can understand why I'd place many times more faith in my personal research than I'd ever place in any information Brother Walt was willing to share; although I will confess his "stories" were quite entertaining.
As to anyone deserving of the moniker "L.C. Smith Man"; I reserve that title for Cliff White who I first met at an Atlanta gun about 1980; and for whom I still have his business card from that meeting stating "Cliff While, The L.C. Smith Man". Although I do have my differences with Brother Cliff, he's owned more Smith guns and unique company and employee items and artifacts than anyone I've ever known or can imagine. Before he decided to liquidate his original Smith collection (because he wasn't making enough new discoveries to keep Smith collecting interesting), he owned (among many other guns and Smith things) 15 of the 30 original Deluxe Grade Smiths. No one I know has ever been able to claim that accomplishment! As to John Houchins he was direct, and often rude; but always in a humorous side-splitting kind of way, and I really loved old John. But John was an attorney, and to his passing remained convinced that all he had to do was establish "reasonable cause" when trying to prove something factual; so I and others in the Smith world disagree with some of the conclusions found in his book. Still, his book is a very interesting and entertaining read; and I, and the collecting world remain forever grateful that john expended all the time and treasure he did to get his work published.

And finally, I do indeed "put the L.C. Smith Collectors Group above the Cody Museum" in terms of what we provide to the L.C. Smith collector; and I honestly don't give a tinker's toot "what Walt Schiessl would say" because I've learned first hand his "opinions" could be worthless. If I had published the information he gave me on the Special Smith, we'd have both looked like fools. And for the record anyone requesting a Cody letter will receive from the clerk handling Smith gun request letters that day only what they can regurgitate from the line entry for that serial number contained wihin the ledger. These people are not Smith collectors and could care less about digging up any additional information, which I can attest they wouldn't have anyway. A letter from the LCSCA is far more informative and will add as much, and often more value to a Smith gun than a Cody letter.
And since I'm on a roll, I'll make one more comment for the record regarding Brother Walt. When the LCSCA was formed in 2003, I personally called Mr. Schiessl and asked, since he was the nationally recognized LC Smith authority, if he would join the organization. He thanked me for the invitation but said he didn't have time for another organization. So I protested and responded "but Walt we're doing and publishing lots of research and; since you regularly advertise and sell Smith guns, you'll be a direct beneficiary of the information we'll provide. You realize that fact, so you of all people should be a member". Bottom line was that "The L.C. Smith Man" refused to have any association at all with the LCSCA. So ended my last ever conversation with Brother Walt; and yet in spite of zero support from the nationally known and recognized Mr. Schiessl, the LCSCA, as well as the credibility of the organization itself, has and continues to do extremely well. Brother Walt obviously convinced you that you shouldn't be a part of the LCSCA either; but if you were an individual who formed his own decisions, you'd be wise to take the bold step of finding out for yourself.

KY Jon,
I never claimed it was I said it needs to be looked at to determine what has been done. Pictures can be deceiving, identification markings need to be checked.
on any gun you are looking at, shooting from the hip is pure garbage.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

topgun,

Your opinion of Walt differs from mine and I knew him for many many years. As Walt grew older he did make mistakes, and I tried to advise him of such. His memory was failing toward the end most definitely. We will see how you and I both do toward our end also. Yes Walt did influence me and his opinions were never worthless you are dead wrong about that, as to not joining the club, John and I had a long conversation about it, I however make my own decisions, and from the personal attacks form people in your club here, Walt Schiessls advise was dead on and I made the correct decision. As for deserving the handle I use, I will continue to use it, in Walt honor, he was my friend. Those speaking derogatory about him are wrong. I did not take your explanation as derogatory, you had contact with him as a very old gentlemen, I hope to live to be as old, if I make the same kind of mistakes God be kind to me. I do take your unkind words about John a different way however, we had some conversations about people thinking he was entertaining, you say he was our friend, now I understand his meaning. John was an A typical male Lawyer, we got along well, I never knew him as well as I knew Walt however.


Sorry your club is not the historical record keeper for L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms no matter how much you would like it to be. Bill Brophy made that decision long ago.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

I'm gonna make popcorn, get a seat outside for the sunset, and follow this. Certainly better than anything on tv.

I said it before...Andy Kaufman.

- NDG

Somebody get the cuffs and hood for this nut case Nudge.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

This thread gets more fun by the minute.

Reminds me of why I stick to shooters, with an emphasis on French and German craftsmen. At least with H A Lindner there is relative agreement. We know very little for sure. Bwahahaha !

You can't be serious, can you?

But after reading your other posts I guess you probably are....

The content of a research letter, whether provided by the Cody Museum or the LCSCA, or any other organization that is in possession of factory records (whether original or duplicates) who, by the way, seems to me to have a responsibility to include all factual information in their possession that a paying customer is charged for, should include ALL known information. The Cody Museum knows what is expected for the price paid yet refuses to divulge pertinent data in their letters. This practice is completely unprofessional... and yet, you stand behind them. Incredible.

DAM16SXS,

On the basis of only one experience (some might argue it isn't representative), I have to agree with you. The Cody letter I received for an LC Smith Ordnance gun I owned was pretty sparse compared to what Jim Stubbendieck sent me.

Cody made no mention of production numbers or rarity of features, which from a factual standpoint wouldn't have made a difference to me because I knew the gun. I really just wanted corroborating paper to prove it's provenance so I could get more money in selling it.

But if you weren't really a collector, knew nothing, and just wanted to get an education about "Grandpa's gun," the Cody letter would have left you wanting.

- Nudge

On a LC 20ga 5E I used to own the Cody letter had almost nothing.

Cody gives the bare minimum of data from their records. LCSCA goes farther, which is nice, but in no way can Cody really claim superiority of data as they are looking at the same record.

Arguing one as “official” versus the other is of little value.

Records on many of our guns are scant. Some gunmaker ledgers have very little data beyond serial numbers, dates, and original buyer, like the record on my Alex Martins. Others like Purdey have much more, to an email, they sent me a scan of the original Ledger entry, interpreted the script, and answered follow up questions. The details Purdey recorded was awesome for determining original features; All for no fee. Pity LC recorded so little.

RGD
I recognize and acknowledge your friendship and affection for Brother Walt, and surely you understand I made no comments disparaging your relationship; my comments related only to my personal experiences with Walt, some of which were far from positive. The LCSCA is not a "club" it is instead an organization of shooters and collectors who appreciate and enjoy shooting an L.C. Smith gun; yet, and unlike some, openly and willingly acknowledge its shortcoming and realize Smith guns fall far from perfection. As to attacks, I haven't attacked you; and as to those to whom you feel have attached you, how can you make a blanket claim that anyone who criticizes you here is a member of the LCSCA? Bottom line is that you can't because you don't know anymore about their affiliations than do I. If you want to know what the LCSCA is and who the people in the organization are, then come to one of the events we host; there's certainly a fair number in the Northeast near where you live. I can assure you there's no finer group of people than the men and women in the LCSCA; but you can continue to be as stubborn as Walt if you choose and simply you'll never know for yourself.

As to your comment "Sorry your club is not the historical record keeper for L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms no matter how much you would like it to be. Bill Brophy made that decision long ago". The LCSCA isn't a museum (is one of our goals however) so the only alternative Brophy had at the time was Cody; and although the LCSCA is not the keeper of the original ledgers, we have an authorized copy of those records that is identical to the copy used by the clerks at Cody in checking serial numbers. You have no knowledge as to how the LCSCA obtained a copy of those records, nor how they've been utilized since; but allow me to share this bit of information "for the record". The majority of the records research performed by Cody revolves around the Winchester firearms records they hold; and because that is a true fact, these Winchester records generate a significant amount of revenue. In contrast, revenues generated by the old Hunter Arms records is miniscule; so obviously the result is that Cody's primary focus is other than LC Smith. Remington Arms, because they purchased the Marlin Firearms Company, is the current owner of the old Smith ledgers (not Cody); and it was the folks at Remington who made those records available to the LCSCA because they understood we'd actually do something with that information. As a result we now have more information, and more accurate information about LC Smith guns production today than ever before thanks to the dedicated, and tireless efforts of Jim Stubbendieck. If anyone is truly deserving of the moniker the "LC Smith Man", then that individual has to be Jim.
Sadly, you've too often demonstrated on this forum that you're not willing to accept the truth even when presented in a manner that is irrefutable. Your lack of an open mind is most unfortunate because you are so enthusiastic about the Smith gun otherwise; but the fact that you're so unwilling to acknowledge some of the most basic truths about Smith guns also means that you'll refuse to ever accept the fact the LC Smith Collectors Association has indeed become "the historical records keeper for L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms". I can assure you that all serious and knowledgeable Smith gun collectors now go first to the LCSCA and Jim Stubbendieck for letters of authentication. Anyone going to Cody first is either misinformed; or like you, stubborn as a mule.

Nudge
For the record, I recognized immediately who NDG was and recalled many of the old "Beans" posts and controversies. As everyone is entitled to their personal opinion, rightly or wrongly; it's OK with me if an individual chooses to ignore the truth, and I'm certainly not attempting an on-line debate with NDG. The majority of my comments were solely intended to either correct the record, or share information with other readers. Tom

yawn...

Time to add “anything LC Smith related” to the list of subjects that bring the wackos to the party.

Tom,

You'll never get a debate from me. I think anyone who's ever sought info on SAC know that almost everything on the internet is a cut & paste variation of information either YOU or David Noreen once wrote.

It's a pity you won't be paid for it.

- NDG

BTW, I guess I feel compelled to say this given the often caustic nature some of these threads sometimes devolve into.

I NEVER engage in that stuff. Over the last week or so the back and forth with "Dave B" evolved about the same way it did when he joined the old Lefever forum. We began by trying to explain, which then lead to trying to calm him and appeal to the reason offered by multiple people...and lastly I just gave up.

So when he began again here I at first attempted to reason with him, but he's so quick to lunacy that that cause was quickly lost.

Why does it matter? I guess it matters to me MORE than the usual political infighting (which used to be wisely moved to "Misfires") because it sews the seeds of mal-education.

The internet has devolved into being as much MIS-informative as it is informative. This greats on me terribly. But while the political stuff on here is mostly a distraction, because nobody comes to the Doublegun BBS for 'informed politics,' they do and SHOULD come here for double gun information.

I lurked for years before I ever had a word to say...largely because I hadn't learned enough to contribute anything!

I should probably fade back out to "view only" on here. I'm generally a pleasant, reserved person. But I lose my temper in the face of willful ignorance. It is a genuine human sickness to be that way.

- NDG

While we are at it and going back to the first post showing a link to the said gun, the for-end wood and checkering is wrong, that has been replaced also. Of the many No. 3's that I have seen and own, they all have nice wood and finer checkering than shown on that for-end. The wood on this gun looks to be American walnut and everything in all the early Hunter Arms catalogs list
a No. 3 as having fine imported English Walnut.

Nudge, do not be a lurker as it does nothing to improve this or any site. Are you going to the Hunter Homecoming later this month? If so I will be there, Good Lord willing.

David,

I am not, as I have a business commitment requiring travel. It's a shame, because my proximity should make me an easy participant.

- Nudge

I hear ya. Pretty scary when ed is the sanest guy in a thread.


___________________________
Lonny Rhodes, The Ravioli Man

Right. Cue the music:

https://youtu.be/n3XMC_Sk3QE

Best,
Ted

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6 large ain’t what it used to be.