I have a late LC Field Grade 12 that I purchased about thirty years ago. The metal is in very nice condition, lots of case color left. The stock had the typical cracks behind both lock plates. The cracks were repaired and the stock refinished and the gunsmith did a very nice finish.

But, this gunsmith had a bad reputation as far as his wood repairs went. About every one of his repairs failed. I have never shot this gun as I expect the stock to crack again. I purchased the gun at a very fair price with the intent of finding a new stock at some point but never got around to it.

Now thirty years later I'm wondering if this gun is worth the stock repair/replacement. My regular gunsmith is way to pricey for this type of project. Any ideas on who could replace the stock without investing more than the gun is worth.

Dennis

I'd remove the lockplates and saturate the invisible section of the wood (where it otherwise might crack) with thin cyanoacrylate, let dry and leave it at that. You don't want to restock a Field Grade Smith 12. More than the gun is worth.

Concur with Alder Adder

I had one glued up professionally and shot at least a few flats of low pressure Polywads through it afterwards without issue (before selling it). It was also a featherweight which I believe has even less material in the stock head area than a regular frame. Maybe just stick to low pressure loads if you are concerned about cracking? If it cracks again, it can always be dipped in acetone and reglued I would think as well. Wouldn't sweat it too much on a field grade gun.

DLA,

These men are giving you some sound advise, let me add this to it. Sense you can still pick up an original 12 gauge L.C. Smith for more than reasonable money $800.00 - $950.00, because there were so many of them made by Hunter Arms, in most cases stock replacement may cost more than the actual used gun.

I would use your Field Grade double gun to hunt with using SpredR loads, sense you have already invested in a repair, or send the gun to Rich Painter at Economy Gun Smithing, here in Pa, and have him fix the stock correctly prior to using it. If you have stored the gun correctly and oiled it properly also, your already repaired stock should probably not fail, using the light SpredR loads. If the man who repaired your stock knew what he was doing, it would not recrack at all.

Sense the gun is not a family hand me down from your Father and Grand Father,
if the stock does fail again, at that time then make your decision. If you decide some day to replace the stock or have it fixed correctly, I recommend Rich Painter or Freddie Brunner. These 2 Mastergun Makers do all the work on my L.C. Smith Collection, when ever something needs done. (Remember Mastergun maker is a honorary, title given to Gun Makers thru knowledge and experience.) It takes a Mastergun Maker to work on an L.C. Smith Double Gun correctly. It takes this type of knowledge and experience to do the job correctly.

Further I always recommend the Double Gun Video's "The L.C. Smith Sidelock Shotgun" with Master Gunmaker Nick Makinson. A great video that educates owners on the L.C.Smith Sidelock Double Gun.

If I can help you further let me know.

Ryman Gun Dog/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

"L.C. Smith America's Best" - John Houchins

Freddy Brunner is retired. Try this guy:

http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

Oh, wait, I forgot-he doesn’t work on ‘Smiths anymore. Actually, the list of guys that don’t is getting sort of extensive.

Good luck, don’t take any wooden nickels.

Best,
Ted

Shoot it. It was made to be used. Stick with low pressure loads only because it is a vintage double that wasn't designed for modern high pressure loads. But remember that recoil is what damages old brittle or punky wood, and recoil is not a function of pressure. Recoil is increased by higher velocities and/or heavier loads of shot.

Measure your cracks and run a case of mild loads through it. I'll wager the cracks probably won't reopen or get worse. They probably began years ago when someone's pounded the piss out of it with heavy high velocity loads. L.C. Smith's I've owned that had cracks behind the lockplates never got any worse with conservative loads.

I am interested in how your gunsmith did the repairs, and why you think his repairs are prone to failing. Cyanoacrylate or crazy glue will help stabilize fragile old wood, but it won't be as strong as either good wood or properly done glass bedding. Wood needs to be clean and free of oil soaking before cracks are repaired, or no kind of glue is going to do a good job. Soaking oiled wood with cyanoacrylate is only going to make a proper job a lot more complicated. Amateur and professional gunsmiths should follow the same Hippocratic Oath as Doctors... "First, do no harm."

Keith
I bought this gun sometime in the early 80's as part of a three gun package deal. I had no interest in the Smith. I wanted a Fox Pin Gun and a Bernardelli . The owner of the guns would only sell them as a package so I became the new owner of the Smith. It has resided in various gun cabinets and safes since then. I came across the Smith a couple weeks ago when doing an annual gun cleaning and began thinking about repairing the wood or selling the gun as a parts gun.
Not sure how the gunsmith did his wood repairs. I never personally used him for any of my work. I'm not even sure if the guy is alive any longer. What I can remember is that he was a local gunsmith that could change parts in your Remington but not much beyond that. He did however do very nice wood finishes at reasonable prices. The problem that was always discussed among shooters in the area was that if this particular gunsmith repaired a crack in the head of the stock it WAS going to crack again in the same spot.
I believed those guys so just put the Smith in the corner and left it there for thirty years.

Maybe I will just sell the gun as a parts gun. I sure don't need it.

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

Dennis

You won’t find them.

Just shoot it. If it cracks again have it fixed by someone that knows how to work on LC wood.

Sell it to someone who worships at that altar. “I sure don’t need it” sums up how you will feel about repairing it when it does let go. There are guys that love ‘em like their first born, most of them clearly understand the design problems, and love ‘em anyway.

Nothing wrong at all with not being in that camp.

On any given site where shotguns are discussed, you can find some version of the LC Smith wood story.

Good luck with the sale.

Best,
Ted

Ted S,

The real reason many Gun Smiths do not work on L.C. Smith double guns, is they are not talented or experienced enough to do the work correctly, and there is no engineering design problem with any L.C. Smith shotgun. Your opinion is definitely wrong. I do not worship at any other alter than the Lords. I recommend you watch the Double Gun Videos The L.C. Smith Shot Gun with Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson and learn about America's best Sidelock double gun.

Freddie Brunner still works on certain people's double guns. I doubt he works on yours however.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

DLA,

If you are going to sell the 12 Gauge L.C. Smith for parts, PM me with some pictures and I will probably take it off your hands. Hate to see a good old L.C. Smith double gun waisting away in a closet some place. If it's a pre 13 gun, I will have it fixed correctly.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

Pictured below is a 16 Gauge 1913 L.C. Smith Field Grade on which Rich Painter installed a different set of L.C. Smith 30" Krupp barrels. If you want to have your 12 Gauge fixed correctly contact him at Economy Gun Smithing, Economy, Pa via the Net.

I wouldn’t call Dewey Vicknair inexperienced or not talented enough to work on LC Smiths. He’s probably made a considerable amount fixing stock cracks, broken stock heads etc. There are two kinds of Smiths: ones with broken stocks and those with stocks that will be broken. Dewey has a great discussion of their design weaknesses on his blog.

Beans, Again, for review:

http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

The gunsmiths that I am referring to have all made a good living by being excellent gunsmiths, and have thrown in the towel on the Smith guns.

Guys like Dewey. Go ahead, and regale us with your tales of how Dewey isn’t talented enough or experienced enough to work on an L C Smith.

Go ahead. We’d all love to hear that one, again.

Fortunately, I can handle most of my own gunsmithing, Beans. The stuff I send out has gone to Kirk Merrington, Geoffrey Gournet, Randy Murray, and the checkering lady, Carol, at Ahlman’s Custom Guns in Morristown, MN.

I don’t believe any of the above will stand in line to work on a ‘Smith. Randy made a lot of money for a lot of years putting wood on, and doing repairs on LC Smith’s. Dewey did, also. Not so much, anymore. By choice, Beans.

It is a long way from “not experienced enough” to “I’m sick of fixing this junk, and won’t do it anymore”.

There are others, as well. None of them are amateurs, Beans. Despite what you imply.

Best,
Ted

Wow Dave, only 46 posts, and you're already rolling in the dirt with the rest of us heathens!

I still like my L.C. Smith guns, but I recognize their shortcomings and engineering deficiencies. Beyond the well known wood problems stemming from the thin sections in the fragile inletting, there is also the simplicity of the locks. Tough to do in practice, but make damn sure your L.C. Smith gun is pointed away from dogs or hunting companions if you take a tumble. They aren't the safest gun in the world. And Bill Brophy mentions in his "L.C. Smith Shotguns" book the number of Smith guns that are out of commission because the forends pop off and get lost while hunting.



Don't take it personally. I much prefer my Syracuse Lefever guns. But I recognize that they have their own design flaws as well, like fragile wood above and below the sideplates, and top lever springs that are prone to breaking.

Unless y'all have followed RGD's penchant for all things LC Smith, on the SSM site, you can't appreciate his hardheadedness regarding LC Smiths, and his hardheadedness in general. The particular website he is on at the time is irrelevant.

SRH

How many English Purdy under bite locking guns shoot loose ?
O.M

I guess you'd have to ask a Purdey Gunsmith how many of them he tightens. Never having owned a Purdey I have not the foggiest idea.

A long way from a Purdey but I have a Birmingham made J P Clabrough which is pre-1900. It has double underbolts & an unbolted Doll's Head. It is still tight & on face even though it has no built in wear compensation. Top lever stops at center, period, didn't start to the right & will never move to the left.

Personally I am firmly convinced that more guns "Wear" loose than ever "Shoot" loose.

RGD is no stranger on this forum. He was posting here when I started in the '90s. While opinionated, he usually has pretty sound opinions. Except maybe on Elsies...Geo

Gentlemen,

It's evident that many of you know nothing about Hunter Arms and L.C. Smith double guns, you shoot off you mouth attacking me personally and give no engineering analysis for your uneducated opinions. I advise you again to watch the Double Gun Videos The L.C. Smith Sidekick Shotgun and learn something about L.C. Smith Shotguns, that goes for the guns smith you guys think so highly of also.

It is evident that some of you also know even less about the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, than you do about L.C. Smith Shotguns.

Geo. Newbern,

Man you have a good memory, that was 18 Plus years ago, when he reformatted I never started posting again. The computer I used back them is long gone.

Hope all is well with you, and L.C. Smith Shotguns are still the best ever made!

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

The idea that Dewey Vicknair doesn't know anything about gunsmithing or L. C. Smith shotguns is about like saying Leonardo DaVinci or Michaelanglo didn't know anything about painting. There are very few gunsmiths who ever reach his level of skill.

My Syracuse and D.M. Lefevers aren't perfect, and neither are my L.C. Smith's, Parkers, or Fox guns. Even Best Quality Hollands, Purdeys, and Boss guns have their problems, and that is why there are gunsmiths who make a living fixing those problems. Drive a Ford or a Rolls Royce long enough, and both end up in the junkyard.

Not to worry, I like mine pretty well:



12ga Specialty with 32" barrels...Geo

Keith,

Dewey V seems to be some kind of God to you people, in our mountains Freddie Brunner and a couple others were the Master Gun Makers who did all our work.

No gun is absolutely perfect, just different in engineering, I like LeFever guns also, for a Box Lock they are real nice guns.

Keith I taught the US Constitution, with the NRA Speakers Bureau for many years, introducing Charlton Heston in may different places thru out the country.

King Brown and Ed Good have no idea what they are talking about, the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution as individual rights that limit the power of the federal government. The 2nd Amendment is and always will be an individual right. The founders letters and documents explain all this, "The great object is that every man be armed... Everyone who is able may have a gun. - Patrick Henry "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always posses arms and be taught alike, especially when young how to use them - Richard Henry Lee

There is absolutely no doubt about what the founders intent was when they wrote the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution. Progressives have been trying to undermine the 2nd Amendment ever sense it was written. The 2nd Amendment is the Law of the land. Liberal Progressive like Bill Clinton down thru time have been trying to rewrite history to complete their own agenda, in reality the founders wanted the citizens to be as well armed as the government that served them.

In reality no form of gun control is compatible with the US Constitution and the 2nd Amendment.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith man

And yet I see you offering no engineering analysis that backs up your position. Quite funny. Stan and Ted seem to have you pegged.

I've not seen any of your handiwork nor that of any of the smiths you recommend so regularly. But I have followed Dewey Vicknair's work and worked with a number of other highly skilled smiths. Anyone who thinks Vicknair needs to educate himself further about L.C Smiths in order to see the light about what a fantastic gun the Elsie is, is clearly too biased to even have a conversation with.

I'll throw my Lindner Daly, my Lovena or my Manufrance Ideal up against your L C Smith anytime for being well engineered and I don't even have to think about which was more finely crafted.

I like a whole bunch of different guns but I'm not so silly as to imagine that a factory made American gun, which has well documented design flaws, is the be all and end all of SxS shotguns.

Thanks for your support of the 2nd Amendment Dave. Without the minority of gun owners who fight to keep it, we probably wouldn't be here arguing which gun is better.

You should check out Dewey Vicknair's work. He's a Pennsylvania boy, and there is no question he's a Master Gun Maker. In fact, he really is a gun maker, not simply a gunsmith. He sometimes starts out with blocks of steel and walnut, and builds functioning works of art from scratch. Not only are his designs aesthetically pleasing, i.e. gorgeous, but he often uses his own designs and engineering improvements instead of simply copying what others have designed. He appears to be as talented working wood as he is working steel, when so many craftsmen are specialists who only excel at one or the other.

He used to post here on this site, but decided he'd had enough, so he left us. I sure miss his posts and photos, and wish he'd come back. For those of us who do some of our own gunsmithing, he was an inspiration to try harder and do better.

I had Nick Makinson's video for many years, and while it is a well made introduction to the LC Smith, disassembling and reassembling it, Makinson's opinion is not without flaw. He and I once talked on the phone, as I encouraged him to make this same type video on other makes of guns. During the course of the conversation I asked his opinion as to why Smiths crack behind the tail of the lockplate with more regularity than other sidelocks. He said that they don't and that such cracks are caused by allowing the hand pin to loosen.

Well, as much as I respect Nick's abilities, he is wrong about that. There is an inherent flaw in the design, that leaves too little wood in the head of the stock for recoil absorption. That, coupled with close, tight inletting of the tail of the lockplate results in it acting as a wedge, pushing the upper and lower parts of the grip area apart and causing the splits, which always begin in the lock inlet and panel at the rear of the lockplate.

Sure, there are Smiths around that have been shot a good bit that aren't cracked. Some pieces of walnut are denser than others and are less prone to crushing of the wood in the small recoil bearing area of the stock head. I have a fine specimen of the L C Smith gun, that I enjoy shooting at doves and crows. The wood is not oil soaked at all, and the hand pin never was loose, but it cracked with me on both sides after shooting several hundred rounds through it, some 1 oz., some 1 1/8 oz. loads. It's been repaired by Jim Kelly, but the tiny cracks are still visible.

I DO know something about the engineering and proper upkeep of Smith guns, and I say that anybody who says that the LC Smith is the best gun ever made is full of ...................beans.

SRH

canvasback,

Again you fit right in with them and know little about L.C. Smith guns, in fact all the pre 1913 L.C. Smith guns were hand made, fit an finished, even the later guns manufactured on a line principle had 80% of the gun hand made, it's the only way a Brown Rotary Bolt, for each individual gun, can be made. All the Sidelock internal pieces were also made individual for each gun, the barrels were all individually fit and finished to each individual gun, swapping the barrels from on gun to another is a job for a Master Gun Maker, it must be completed by hand fit and finish.

You are high on drugs to actually believe that any of the euro guns you have listed will not eventually shoot loose, most originally came with documents telling the owner, the gun must be tuned up after each seasonal usage. Even the Boss and Purdy guns fail the longevity test. I have heard all the BS excuses before, in reality if the L.C. Smith had been produced in London, the euro/London gun makers would still be bragging about it even today, as the greatest gun engineering ever made.

Ryman Gun Dog
L.C. Smith Man

RGD, in this case, I'm happy to fit right in. I'll take the consensus opinion every time. It has the benefit of being vetted by the experiences of 1000's of owners and 100's of smiths. BTW, all guns will shoot loose eventually. The Europeans simply felt that looking after one's tools wasn't a bad idea.

I've been in Makinson's shop several times and had him work on my guns. I'm not unfamiliar with good smiths.

However, if you want to love Elsies and think they are the greatest, go ahead. To each their own. Lots of different guns to enjoy. However, constantly telling and implying the rest of us don't know our asses from second base because we don't share your enthusiasm will only generate scorn rather than the converts you wish.

I can't get all that worked up about someone being perhaps a bit too passionate about their favorite gun, car, or whatever.

To me, that's small potatoes compared to a gun guy who supports anti-gunners like Obama or Hillary. Now there's a sin that ranks almost as low as being a pedophile or drowning puppies.

Free education, for those who think the Smith gun is the best:

http://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-unbiased-look-at-design-of-american.html

SRH

Stan,

I want you to take a good look at the Best J.P Sauer double guns, that same stock fit has never been told to have excessive cracking. Understand the engineering design is almost identical to the L.C. Smith. You do not see a lot of their stocks cracking because they only made less than 1/2 the guns that L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms produced.

All wood cracks at a certain percentage, no matter the gun maker. The more guns produced the more crack stocks you see. Hunter Arms produced more guns than any other American Gun maker, so naturally you see more cracked stocks.

I own many L.C. Smith double guns, most are all pre 13 guns, none have cracked stocks. The design of the gun has nothing to due with your stock cracking, either you oiled & stored the gun incorrectly, or the wood failed on it's own, because it was a faulty piece of hard wood, which Hunter Arms could not have seen during manufacturing.

By the way Nick is absolutely correct in his assessment, you just do not want to accept what he told you, which is your purgative. Foolish as it maybe.

I have owned many different shotguns still own many of them, from Fox to Remington to Brownings to LeFever's to Savage to J.P Sauers, to Winchester to Boss, to original H&R Hammer Guns. None match the over all quality engineering of the L.C. Smith, although some do have the altered Brown Rotary Bolt.

Stan you also put way to much stock in Vicknair's judgement, better you should listen to Master Gun Maker Nick Makinson, who actually knows L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms Guns. There are many people like yourself who have flawed judgement where gun make is concerned.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Anyone who thinks an L C Smith is "Engineered" better than a Lefever obviously has not much engineering experience.
Superior points of the Lefever are too numerous to mention. I will mention that I have one totally trash H grade Lefever "Parts Gun" that was obviously rode hard & put away wet as they say & saw much abuse. Amazingly you can totally remove it ball hinge pin & the barrels still snug up tightly to the breech from only the Lefever patented square shouldered Doll's Head. A properly fitted Brown's rotary bolt would of course do the same thing, but no better & not one in a thousand of the rotaries are properly fitted. Most of them only bear in keeping the gun closed which the simple wedge of a Baker or Stevens will do quite nicely & they don't blow open.

All that said "IF" I had an L C Smith which needed work & my Gunsmith refused to work on it Just Because it was a Smith, I'd find a different Smith.

Smith, Lefever, Parker, Ithaca, Fox, etc. Find an example that is in good operating condition, a hundred or so years old and I'll guess that you will cease to exist before it does, making this whole which is best argument a moot point. At least, to me. I have two old Parkers, each over 100 years old. My prized bird guns but I know that they will outlive me as Dave's Elsies will outlive him so who cares about any of this? Your kids probably don't care about your old relics except for the money they may bring. Your guns don't have to be the best. Only good enough for the rest of your life. This argument will undoubtedly continue so I will end with this: Enjoy what you have for your own reasons. Let others do the same.

Keith and Adder adder, it is these kinds of comments that will win RGD few friends. Supporting the NRA isn't the only measure of a man. It's not a discussion of which is better or a statement of pride in one's own guns. It is the condescension that comes with RGD's comments that is hard to take.

Remember, the comments I highlighted were directed at Stan. Wholly inappropriate.

I'll be his friend, if he comes to terms and admits PARKER BROS. is the greatest American gun ever made!

I know what Dave is like and Have viewed his posts for many years. You're not going to fix him. If you or the others want to try, be my guest.

Amen.

Purgative, eh Dave?

SRH

There are a couple of guys on here who would benefit from a good purgative.

2 piper,

Lefever Guns are great American Boxlock double guns, most are not Sidelock double guns. That being said, they are great engineering gun design. One great design LeFever invented, and was never incorporated by L.C. Smith, is the LeFever engineering that allows some of his high grade double guns to be both an extractor and ejector gun, with a simple switch on the Breech. Simply a great piece of gun design engineering.

His locking system for his Boxlock double gun has to be adjusted with his own engineering principle, to keep the gun perfect as it wears. Not a bad engineering design, however the Hunter Arms, Brown Rotary Bolt needs no adjustment as it wears, in fact the fit gets even better as the gun wears, it's the reason LeRoy Hunter used it at Ithaca, and phased out the original LeFever lock up Engineering.

I like and own LeFever guns, I own a one of a kind LeFever/Ithaca 12 Gauge built on a 16 Gauge frame, it is just murder on Grouse, Pheasants and Ducks. Bill Brophy owned a very similar gun, his comment one night was that Hunter Arms must have been real glad that Uncle Dan decided to build Boxlock double guns. LeFever was in fact that good as a gun builder. His talents were just incredible as a Gun Designer/ Builder. As a person however Uncled Dan was very hard to deal with, some say, it was because he was a perfectionist engineer/gun designer.

RARiddell,
The Parker Brothers Boxlock gun designs were so weak compared to LeFevers engineering, they can not even be compared. Popularity has nothing to due with engineering gun design. Parker guns are nice little Boxlock double guns that have a great following however. I like them myself. Learned to Grouse hunt with my Grandfather's Parker 28 Gauge DHE. One Sweet little bird gun, no doubt about it.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

Because LeRoy Hunter, older brother of the Hunter Arms Brothers, left Hunter Arms/L.C. Smith to start the Ithaca gun company, with some other Hunter Arms employees, he becoming a major partner in the Ithaca gun company. LeRoy was permitted to use an altered for Boxlock, Brown Rotary Bolt, in some of his early Ithaca/LeFever double guns. Some very serious engineering in it's own right. The LeFever/Ithaca gun below has that Brown Rotary Bolt. LeRoy never stayed around long enough to incorporate the LeFever design, allowing LeFever/Ithaca guns to be both ejector and extractor at the flip of a switch. Some of the old Ithaca employees told Bill Brophy that the Ithaca/LeFever engineering plans do exist, I have never seen them however.

Alder,
You can not fix what is not broken. I enjoy what I like and respect what others like also, from guns to dogs to Fly Fishing Rods. I like good conversation however I will not be personally insulted because of my beliefs. If insulted personally do not expect me to back down, I love President Trump because he is the same way.

canvasback,
You and Stan seem to believe you can insult another member and nothing will happen, rest assured in my case if you do not stick to the subject and attack me personally in any way, I will give it back to you in spades. I have been rudely politically incorrect to people who insult the US Constitution and the NRA or myself, all my life. If you do these things I never worry one little bit, about making you my friend.

James, I didn't say that Dave's comments toward Stan (or Ted) were appropriate. I even chided him for not taking long to get down to rolling in the dirt with the rest of us heathens. I see a lot of silly statements here. Sometimes I comment, and more often, I just roll my eyes.

But I still think Dave's excessive pride in his L.C. Smith guns is small potatoes compared to the Leftist Liberal Socialist anti-gun rhetoric that comes from guys like King Brown or Ed Good. Some minor insults to Stan or Ted isn't going to hurt either of them. They obviously both know how to hit back, and most everyone here knows they both know their shit. And both are humble enough to know that none of us knows all there is to know about doubles. Lord knows Ted has sparred with the best of them and survived.

But maybe Dave should tone it down just a bit. The guys he's knocking, including yourself, are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to doubles. I posted my own comments about the well known engineering problems with L.C. Smith's, and even Bill Brophy recognized they weren't perfect. I don't feel very hurt if Dave rejects what I know and see. I've also encouraged him to take a good look at the incredible work of Dewey Vicknair before passing judgement on him. And if he sings the praises of L.C. Smith's too much, he may end up increasing demand for them and pricing himself out of the market.

I think I'll reserve my energies and anger toward those who do actual damage to "our fraternity" by undermining our Constitutional Right to own firearms, via their support for anti-gunners, and those who engage in serial dishonesty by tarring Conservatives as racists, haters, greedy, misogynists, etc. Myself, I can't believe that Dave's comments get more of a rise from some here than the crap and outright lies that comes from some of our F.A.G.'s, FUDD's, and anti-gun Trolls.

They (the F.A.G.'s, FUDD's, and anti-gun Trolls) are beneath contempt, as are wormy little spineless a$$holes who would post something like this:

I was wondering who this guy was and now that I see that dressed up Lefever now I know. Haha. He went by Pine Creek Dave on the old Lefever Forum when he was trying to convince everyone that thing was a $1,000 grade Ithaca, or something like that.
Or that the gun was some result of a connection between LC smith and Lefever. ????? Looney.

Take all that this guy says with the smallest grain of salt. And dont bother to educate him, you won’t get anywhere.

RGD, too bad you haven't actually read what I wrote. Not much in there that is insulting. Just an honest appraisal of the perceived tone of your posts to date and an opinion that you won't win any friends or converts that way. If you find that insulting perhaps you should take a good look in the mirror and reconsider your approach.

While at the same time, you've insulted both Ted and Stan for not knowing enough. Read that again Dave....the person doing the insulting has not been Stan or me...it's been you.

Now, as Keith rightly points out, neither Stan nor Ted need me to come to their defense....they are both well able to should they choose to. I just choose to because I like them both and because what you have said is silly.

Now, you may not be a silly man....I have no idea....but your comments here touting the superiority of Elsies to all other guns and your chosen smiths over all other smiths and while doing so denigrating those who disagree with you....well those are silly comments.

Agreed, silly. But consistent with his repertoire over the last couple decades. I repeat ........hardheaded.

SRH

Beans has been a straight up online goof for 20+ years now. I remember years ago on the ssmbbs when he was trying to “educate” everyone about how the new Italian made LC Smith was an absolute engineering marvel Haha. Listen Beans, the verdict has been out for YEARS....sweet Elsie’s just aren’t the engineering marvel you wish they were. I personally know a couple of world renown gunmakers, they won’t let an Elsie in the shop. I will say something about Freddie Bruner though.....he is/was a fantastic gunsmith, good on him for taking care of Elsie’s for so many years. He did a good job with them and he kept a lot of them running right. He repaired my Elsie’s like a true pro. I’ll say the same for Walt Schissel, he was a fun guy to talk with and learn from. They were Elsie guys and we’re also infinitely more enjoyable to talk guns with than you have ever been. Let’s talk about dog training now. Just kidding.

Just for the record the Lefever Arms Co guns are box locks. If you search my posts from the day I came on board here you will not find be saying otherwise. As to their compensations the Doll's head has no adjustments or built in wear compensation at all. Reason, it is un-needed.

The one thing the Lefever & L C Smith has in common is they are both Top Bolted only.

On the Lefever the hold down bolt is wedge shaped so self compensating with the lever moving left as it wears. This on guns built from around 1890 on to the end. Wear in the hinge can be compensated by turning in the ball hinge pin which fits a socket in the barrel lug. This should only be done to the extent of hinge wear & "Should Not" be used to compensate for bolt wear to bring the lever back to center. As it wears to the Left it should remain to the left until such time as a new bolt needs to be fitted.

The Brown rotary bolt is Self Compensating by being on a taper in Two directions. This requires absolute precise fit to two wear planes simultaneously & unless they wear in absolutely the same then they will no longer "Fit" in both directions. As already noted the rotary bolt is well known for being a "Self-Opener" even when you don't move the lever to withdraw the bolt. In short it is simply not all its cracked up to be.

Several years ago right here on this board as a result of comments made concerning the rotary bolt a number of owners of guns with them, Smiths, NID's & Foxes did a smoke test on their fit. Not a Single one of them found the secondary function of the bolt making contact, thus they were only doing ""Half" their intended duty as envisioned by Brown. As such they were no better, or worse, than the simple cross wedge bolt of a Baker or Stevens.

"IF" anyone desires to discuss any of this further we can start a new thread on it. Note I am not an engineer but have dealt with mechanical things for a large portion of my 80 years on this old Earth. 35+ years of that has been as a machinist, culminating as a Machinist Model-Maker.

RGD, I don't Snow as easily as some because if I don't know a bit about whereof I speak I keep my Mouth Shut.

Well that escalated quickly.

Truth be told, Im impressed Dave B. made it this many posts before popping. As was mentioned above, he supernova'd on the Lefever forum after a grand total of 8 posts. Hung up his spikes and walked off the field.

I sorta feel bad for him because he has a common interest and clearly likes to get out and hunt with his dogs.

But he has that lethal cocktail of small facts and large ego that always seems to trip him up.

You just cant make up fake stuff on focused forums. And yet, we've been regalled with stories of 1,000 Grade Lefevers (a porch whittled Ithaca Nitro), not to mention an entire SET of "silver breech" Smiths, as I recall. A gift from John Hunter!

The bottom line is he just would rather SOUND like an expert...than put the time in to get real expertise.

Or at a minimum...to get his facts straight.

DAVE i wish you could just chime in without feeling the need to offer imaginary stuff. Because people know better, and then when they call it out, that's what starts the cycle of name calling again.

Good grief, you tried to tell the entire Lefever forum that they ALL didnt know what they were talking about.

I wonder if you read an article on heart surgery...if you would then attend a heart surgeons convention and start telling everyone they didnt know what they were talking about?

Take a breath. Be nice. Dont assume you are always a leading light of knowledge. Read through thus forum...there is a lot of good info.

Seek first to understand...then to be understood.

- NDG

Well said Nudge, I don't believe it could have been said any better. As I post this time I note this will be the 47th post on this thread. It has however been viewed in excess of 1150 times, so many read who do not post. Very often I post for the benefit of those viewers with the absolute certainty I will not Sway the opinion of the one I am replying to.

In this case I have no idea at all that I will sway RGD's opinion on any thing, but perhaps some lurker out there will be persuaded not to rush out & buy a Smith solely on his bloated opinion of it as the "Best Gun in the World".

My favorite the Lefever is not the Best in the World either, but it is way & above a Smith. From the Top on down all things of a mechanical nature have compromises in their design. One simply has to choose which best fits their ideas & their needs.

I will say that I firmly believe that "Mass Production" was introduced in the US. This applied not only to guns but many other products as well. This had its pluses & minuses but it did make many items affordable to the common people which they could not otherwise have afforded. For this I am thankful.

Parts being "Made to Gauge" was I believe first introduced in the military arsenals for the rifled muskets prior to the War Between the States. It was quickly picked up by other industries as well, an early field to adopt this system was the Sewing Machine industry which began in the 1850's.

PS; while I was making this last post views jumped from 1155 to 1237, as I said many out there who only read.

He likes to talk up his own version of history with absolutely nothing to back it up.

As someone previously said, I tend to read and not post unless I'm comfortable with the subject. In this case i must emphasize that I'm speaking strictly from first-hand experience.
Like RGD, I own several pre-'13 Elsies and all get use in the field and range and in the 20 years I've been collecting them have never had a failure due to the so-called deficiencies in design. In fact I've only had two that required a QUALIFIED 'smiths attention--- a 3E single trigger gun that someone monkeyed with the trigger, and a Pigeon E that the top rib became loose that Gunter Pfrommer has recently properly relaid. My personal preferences for pre-'13 Smiths is twofold--- better quality of wood and nicer engraving. In selecting a gun for potential purchase I pay particular attention to any hint of cracks behind the locks and darkening of the wood at the head of the stock--a sign of oil soaking from improper storage. After all the years I've been collecting pre-'13 Smiths none of my guns show any sign of potential cracks,because of better wood, better storage, and a subtle difference in frame design between pre and post '13 guns.
One must remember that the youngest of my "litter" is 106 years old, and all have served me well, even though they were probably used with improper length and high pressure shells by previous owners--- a testament to the quality of the gun. I have owned several of the other guns mentioned in this thread, and all have their deficiencies but I won't stray from the original subject-- just offering my personal experience.

So, Keith, you elected to bring up your daughters again. Makes it kind of difficult to figure out just what your agenda is. Appears you just want to stir the pot and bring attention to yourself and your misguided crusades. I don't even know what the deal is with your daughters or what the original stuff was about, because I really don't care. I never saw the original posts and have no idea what they were about, but you spent so much time bitching about it that it seems an easy way to yank your chain. Since you spend so much time tracking everyone's posts, perhaps you can enlighten us on what the original issue was.

This thread has picked up so many followers because (I for one) can’t wait to see what sort of Whopper Mr Beans will tell to back up his precarious, but dearly held, beliefs about Smith guns. I remember years ago the thread about the decorated Nitro Lefever and how it was a one of a kind, etc etc. It was bizarre. He held fast to his opinion though, despite the fact that anyone paying attention could see what it was(is). Again, bizarre. But, you have to give the captain his due when he goes down with his ship every. single. time.

keith is a bona fide troll. Members generally do admirably keeping politics out of our conversations. As an originalist, keith keeps the pot boiling taking one side of America's enduring constitutional debate, and reminds continually that his perspicacity in all matters is ". . .why I can't be ignored." He's made me into a voyeur, his language so affectedly partisan and rude. His trolling is too precious to be ignored.

No King, a bona fide Troll is one like you or your friend Ed Good, who repeatedly post anti-gun, anti-NRA, and anti 2nd Amendment rhetoric on a firearms enthusiasts forum. You have posted literally hundreds, if not thousands, of your Leftist political views on this forum. Only someone as dishonest and hypocritical as you could possibly chide me for countering them.

Remember how you and Ed conspired and went against Dave Weber when you continually violated his rules for content in the " Preserve the 2nd Amendment thread - Informational" Thread that used to be pinned to the top of the subjects page? No, you'd like us all to forget much of my political posting is response to your bullshit.

Preserve the 2nd Amendment thread - Informational -- Destroyed by King and Ed

The link above can show folks what the intent of it was and some of what you and Ed did to torpedo it. Too bad we can't go back and show everyone your posts that were deleted by Dave. You vowed to keep posting things unrelated to the topic in that Thread, and you did until Dave finally got sick of policing it. and locked it. Now that's a Troll.

The pot is always boiling on the enduring Constitutional debate concerning our gun rights, because Liberal Left Socialists like you are continually attempting to undermine them with lies like your frequent false assertions that the NRA, John Ashcroft, and even the Supreme Court changed the Original Intent of the framers.

Nice to see the cowardly little worm Replacement chime in. He knew damn well about the issue concerning his pal nca225 posting filthy comments about my daughters. He knew because I brought it up many times to show what a slimy low-life piece of shit nca225 is. Replacement is as cowardly as nca225, and about as dishonest as King. The QUOTE I posted from him illustrates what kind of person he is. And the fact that people like King's friend Gladys, King, and the preacher had nothing negative to say about it confirms the hypocrisy of the F.A.G.'s (Fake Ass Gentlemen) we have here.

I still can't see how RGD Dave is more of a problem to some here than our anti-gun Libtards and Trolls.

Nitro "Super Duper" Special...

http://lefeverforum.informe.com/search.php?search_author=Pine+Creek%2FDave

"Silver Breech" Smith's...

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/28gasociety/grouse-dogs-we-love-them-t2350066-s10.html

I post these so the uninitiated will realize we aren't just rudely singling out a guy. He has left a trail of misinformation and hysteria on multiple gun forums.

As with Cool Hand Luke..."some men just can't be reached."

- Nudge

Keith, you flatter yourself by thinking it is all about you. I don't know who nca225 is, he is not my pal, and I still don't know (or care, really) what the issue was with your daughters. You keep raising it as if it is some crime against humanity, but you seem to be the only one here who knows or cares about it. You resurfaced the issue this time, so you can blame yourself. I reserve the right to raise this issue in the future when I want to tweak you.

Raise the issue anytime you like you wormy little coward. We all know damn well why you raised it when you posted it. I explained the issue about nca225 posting filthy comments about my daughters numerous times, and I just explained it once again above. It's hilarious to see the guy who claims to be so much smarter than everyone else now claiming to have no knowledge of what transpired. I don't care if anyone else cares about it. But it does serve to illuminate the selective civility practiced by our F.A.G.'s (Fake Ass Gentlemen) here. For you to still say you know nothing about it shows us that you are merely attempting to run away from what you posted here, just like King would love to run away from the anti-gun crap he posted here countless times in the past.

One thing I know for certain, you might raise the issue here, hiding behind your little keyboard thousands of miles away. And I can't stop you from being an a$$hole over the internet. But you'd never do it to my face, you little coward.



I still say RGD Dave's posts concerning his beloved L.C. Smith's and his $1000 grade Nitro Special do not sink to the level of lies and sewage that comes from guys like King, Ed, nca225, and Replacement. Is thinking that you have an unknown grade of Nitro Special any worse than pretending to be an Award Winning Winemaker or close personal friends with John F. Kennedy? Is it any worse than saying you have never seen any anti-gun sentiment in 15 years of visits to this forum when your fellow anti-gun Troll friend posts crap like this?

Actually, Keith, I would do it to your face because you are just a sick punk with a bad attitude and a sadly overblown ego. Perhaps you should get back on your meds before you have a stroke. You continue to pollute this BBS with your crap, and when you are called out on it you just double down on the stupidity and conspiracy theories.

No, I've seen your photo. You wouldn't say anything like that to my face. Too small and fragile.

Want to show us the conspiracy theory? Or are you like King, who can deny his own QUOTED unedited words and those of his fellow Trolls? I think we know the answer to that, coward.

Keith, why don't you tell us why YOU raised the issue of your daughters in this thread when it has been dormant for so long? Just trying to get some attention? Trying to play martyr? Stirring the pot? All of the above?

keith, I don't deny my quoted observations on constitutions, NRA, gun control or anything else. They serve to confirm what I've said earlier. It's incredulous you believe anyone differing from your opinions is deserving of your ill manners. You've distinguished yourself in this respect. Offhand, I can't think of other members doing it. .

That's easy little worm. I raised it in response to your post #520164 a couple days ago:



I raised it to show that you are nothing but a cowardly piece of dung who would post garbage like that in order to start shit here. Funny to see you accusing me of stirring the pot now. And predictably hypocritical as hell too.

I saved it when you initially posted it, because I knew you would try to run away from your own words... just as you did above with your lame and lying excuse that you had no knowledge of what had transpired when nca225 decided to drag my family into a fray. The issue isn't dormant... even though you'd like us all to forget about it. If you were a gentleman, or even a man, you wouldn't have posted it in the first place. I still find it amazing that King Brown, a man with daughters of his own, and one who frequently tars Republicans and Conservatives as misogynists was the only one who defended nca225, and wanted me to make peace with him/her.

You tried to tar me with posting "conspiracy theories" and I asked you to prove that. So show us little worm.

Edit: It's also amusing to see King Brown, a proven anti-gun Troll who has repeatedly lied to us, and even denied seeing any anti-gun members here in 15 years after reading direct quotes calling for disarming law abiding citizens, lecturing me about "ill manners". And it is very dishonest of King to say this:



Perhaps he'd like me to post some QUOTES from several guys who got sick of his lies and B.S., and called him out on it in very harsh terms, began IGNORING his posts, and even stopped participating here altogether. Perhaps he recalls Ken61 calling him Comrade Sralin... sralin being a Russian term for shit.

Dishonesty is not civility. Dishonesty is not good manners. Never has been. Never will be.

Now, now, Keith, whatever made you think that referred to you? Getting a little sensitive?

Did I say I thought your comment referred to me???... even though you've made it a point to rudely insult me here very frequently?

Oh wait, I'm the only one King has seen with ill manners here. So it couldn't have been you. Please accept my apology cowardly little worm.

It seems that you're the one who is being rather sensitive here, and doing all you can to run away from your words.

Still can't back up that lie you posted about "conspiracy theories" either, can you? Some things never change.

Keith, you are giving yourself way too much credit as a mind reader. I'm not trying to run away from anything, because there is nothing to run away from. No lame and lying excuse, because I really don't know what transpired between you and nca225. All I know is that something transpired and that you have had your panties in a bunch over it for years. The issue was, in fact, dormant until you brought it up in this thread. Look up the definition of dormant. Do your obsessive tendencies carry over into other aspects of your life? Have you thought about seeking professional help? Seriously.

Keith, your implication that I am somehow aligned with or complicit with or friends with nca225 in the matter of your daughters and nca225's comments would constitute a conspiracy theory. Your paranoia about those who disagree with you on matters related to the Second Amendment would constitute a conspiracy theory on your part. You are very predictable and extremely deluded.

Right. Now you are trying to claim that the smartest worm here would have to be a mind reader to know what transpired when you know damn well I clearly explained it dozens of times. You admit seeing it for years, but now want us to believe you missed the details. Tell us some more lies coward.

That was precisely why you used it when you first posted it to stir some shit. I know you'd like to think it is a dormant issue that you hoped everyone had forgotten. But it obviously isn't dormant, because here it is, hitting you right between your cowardly little worm eyes once again. Look up the definition of NOT DORMANT and NOT FORGOTTEN. Sucks, doesn't it?

Keith, I don't recall that you ever explained anything related to the incident. I do recall that you bitched about it incessantly, as you are doing now. What I saw for years was your bitching, but no explanation of what caused the bitching. If there were relevant details, then I must have missed them.

Please show us where I ever said you aligned or was complicit with nca225. I implied nothing of the sort, and it is another lie for you to say that... or more evidence of your stupidity. I said he was your friend. It would appear that you are since you felt it would be a good idea to stir shit here by posting your own shit about my daughters. Again, you admit to seeing me bitching about nca225's filthy comments for years, but somehow missed the sordid details. You must think everyone here is either naive, or as stupid as you.

And you accuse me of stirring shit. No matter how loathsome I find you to be, you could never dredge up a quote where I would bring your daughters into things. A man would never do this just to stir shit:




You really need to look up the definition of conspiracy and paranoia. I provide direct unedited QUOTES from our anti-gun Trolls to remind folks that our Gun Rights are attacked both externally, and from within the so-called Big Tent of gun owners. You would have to be as deluded and dishonest as King Brown to deny what they actually say, and to deny that they actually support politicians with 100% anti-gun voting records.

I believe you are lying about not seeing the details of what transpired between nca225 and myself. It was repeated too many times, and you spent too much time posting, participating in, and reading the Threads where it was referenced to believe you had no knowledge of it. How can I say it politely and with good manners?... I think you are a lying sack of shit.

You're flailing, and you are as pathetic as always Replacement.

EDIT: Rather than continuing to respond to your continued flailing in your post below Replacement, I'll let you have the last word. But that doesn't mean the comment you want to have fade away will ever be dormant. It won't. I think you've made a convincing case for yourself... NOT.

Wait! You believe someone is lying? That is absolutely shocking! You have never accused anyone of lying, have you? Oh... Never mind.

Why don't you people just shut the hell up!!!!!!!!!!!! Good God!

+1. Another post that has been hijacked by the usual suspects.

I'll be getting flamed here soon, oh well!

Unfortunately ignore is the only option for the usual suspects.

Way back in the beginning of this thread we were discussing a Smith with repaired cracks behind the lock plates and that I thought the repair would not hold up. Many folks messaged me with suggested gunsmiths and I thank you for that.

However, I sold the gun today as a parts gun but I did give the new owner the list of suggested gunsmiths.

Dennis

Glad to hear it worked out for you Dennis.


As to the the key board warriors, they should settle it like they do it Texas.

What do you think LR? I like this one, especially the story behind it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfBuMArFABQ

I think that was the correct course of action. You certainly weren’t in love with the gun, and it carried no memories.
Tough to justify repair expenses on something you don’t care for or about.

Best,
Ted

Great contry song I must say. At least Billy didnt hold any grudges.

After a three-day trial that drew friends Willie Nelson and Robert Duvall to a Waco, Texas courtroom, outlaw country artist Billy Joe Shaver was found not guilty Friday on charges of aggravated assault for shooting a man in the face outside a Texas bar in 2007. “I am very sorry about the incident,” Shaver said outside the courtroom. “Hopefully things will work out where we become friends enough so that he gives me back my bullet.”

Since we're on the subject of BJS, the Wacko from Waco......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii-4teVplZ8

SRH

After I added rep to keith on my ignore list there were 22 blanks on this post that had nothing to do with it.

Sounds about right!

And what,did these posts from james-i and Gregory have to do with L.C. Smith shotguns?

Answer: Exactly nothing.

But it does show that both are too dumb or too dishonest to count. I had exactly 13 posts in this thread. 3 were perfectly on topic and related to L.C. Smith shotguns and Dewey Vicknair, a fine gunsmith. One was a response to the guys who seemed more put-off by RGD Dave and his excessive enthusiasm for Else's than they are about anti-gun Trolls who infest this site.

The other 9 were responses to King and Replacement. I know it is unsporting of me to respond when people insult me or flat out lie. And I think we also know that Gregory and old colonel would never have uttered a word if their wormy friends went off-topic and trashed me, and I did not respond.

But they actually think they are operating from some moral high ground. I've scraped better stuff off my boot soles after walking through a kennel.

"I'll be getting flamed here soon, oh well!"

What did I tell you! Never fails.

Why even start? Its quite obvious Keith is right on the money and justified in what he is doing. You contributed nothing to the thread, but obviously felt compelled to be the victim. You might fool some, but others see what is going on here.

I see, another Keith-Aid, I mean Kool-Aid drinker comes to light.

"Because LeRoy Hunter, older brother of the Hunter Arms Brothers, left Hunter Arms/L.C. Smith to start the Ithaca gun company, with some other Hunter Arms employees, he becoming a major partner in the Ithaca gun company. LeRoy was permitted to use an altered for Boxlock, Brown Rotary Bolt, in some of his early Ithaca/LeFever double guns. Some very serious engineering in it's own right. The LeFever/Ithaca gun below has that Brown Rotary Bolt. LeRoy never stayed around long enough to incorporate the LeFever design, allowing LeFever/Ithaca guns to be both ejector and extractor at the flip of a switch. Some of the old Ithaca employees told Bill Brophy that the Ithaca/LeFever engineering plans do exist, I have never seen them however"

Quote from Dave/Ryman Dog guy/ L C Smith man.

It is interesting to hear of LeRoy Hunter . I had never heard of him before. I am sure Walt Snyder will be interested in Dave's version of Ithaca Gun Co. history.

The quote from Dave/Ryman Dog Guy is totally incorrect!! None of it has a grain of true fact within it.

"Because LeRoy Hunter, older brother of the Hunter Arms Brothers, left Hunter Arms/L.C. Smith to start the Ithaca gun company, with some other Hunter Arms employees"

He is way way off. It was Leroy Smith, older brother of Lyman C. Smith who left the L.C. Smith Gun Company along with his brother-in-law George Livermore and W.H. Baker and a few others in 1880. I believe it was 1883 when they founded the Ithaca Gun Co.

Since we're vetting truthfulness here, would anyone care to comment upon the veracity of this one?



Or how about this?



And which is more harmful to us... Dave's wild stories, or King's anti-2nd Amendment propaganda?

Propaganda often rises from taking one side of an issue, in this case of the enduring national debate of meaning of the Second Amendment.

Mentioning parts of the irrefutable historical record, pros and cons of amendment interpretation, cannot be propaganda if it is accurate.

The US is still wrangling over guns and the amendment is interpreted at all levels of governance as voters please.

The ultimate arbiter of the Constitution is the U.S. Supreme Court King. You have repeatedly been in denial of the written words of the Framers, and you have also been in denial about the 2008 Heller vs. Washington decision and the 2010 McDonald vs. Chicago decision.

The debate about the Original Intent of the Framers concerning the Individual Right to keep and Bear Arms is over, except in the mind of our anti-2nd Amendment Troll, King Brown. Your relentless propaganda and attempts to pervert the truth will be your legacy here.

“This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty...The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits...Wherever standing armies are kept up and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.”
St. George Tucker

“The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in the people.”
Fisher Ames

“What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.”

Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria

“A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.”
Thomas Jefferson

“One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.”
Thomas Jefferson

“No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms...”
Thomas Jefferson

“The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people...that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Americans have the right and advantage of being armed ― unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”
James Madison

“The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.”
James Madison

“From the east to the west blow the trumpet to arms! Through the land let the sound of it flee; Let the far and the near all unite, with a cheer, In defense of our Liberty Tree.”
Thomas Paine

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
Patrick Henry

“The militia is our ultimate safety. We can have no security without it.”
Patrick Henry

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
Patrick Henry

“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials.”
George Mason

“[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man – who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia.”
George Mason

“Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
Tench Coxe

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
Tench Coxe

“The militia, who are in fact the effective part of the people at large, will render many troops quite unnecessary. They will form a powerful check upon the regular troops, and will generally be sufficient to over-awe them.”
Tench Coxe

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States.”
Noah Webster

“Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defence of the country, the over-throw of tyranny, or in private self-defense.”
John Adams

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
Alexander Hamilton

“The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
Joseph Story

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them.”
Richard Henry Lee

“Free men have arms; slaves do not.”
William Blackstone

“The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to Congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.”
William Rawle

“Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? It is feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
Tench Coxe

“If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms – never – never – never!”
William Pitt

“[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.”
Zacharia Johnson

“A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms.”
Richard Henry Lee

“Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property...Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.”
Thomas Paine

“Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
Patrick Henry

“The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone...The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition.”
James Madison

“The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace both from the enormous expenses with which they are attended and the facile means which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers to subvert the government or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers and will generally even if these are successful the first instance enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
Justice Joseph Story

That's great! Thank you Keith.

Proof of constitutions as a living body, changing with the temper of the times, reflected by members appointed to the court, is exhibited again to a waiting world in Washington this week.

No King, wrong again. That scenario only happens in your Liberal Left world where Liberal presidents nominate judicial activists who attempt to legislate things from the bench that they cannot get passed through Congress as prescribed by the Constitution. The words of the Constitution and the original Bill of Rights are exactly as they were when put on parchment in 1787. It is wacky Liberals like you who are trying to make it as enduring as toilet paper.

Judge Brett Kavanaugh has promised to interpret the law in accordance with the Framers Original Intent. And that promise terrifies Liberal Left anti-gunners like you, Chuck Schumer, and Dianne Feinstein. Your repeated efforts to pervert the meaning and intent of our 2nd Amendment are your enduring legacy here.



We don't dismiss the statistics King. We dismiss your Fake News and your anti-gun bullshit.

According to the "internet" the Levi-Strauss blue jean company has gone full bore anti-gun. If they use the profit from my business to pay their employees to spread their liberal anti-gun message it is completely fair for me to quit buying their product.

No more Levis and no more Nikes. The progressives have no idea how mad it makes us!...Geo

Thank you Geo. If all gun guys felt this way and refused to patronize and respect the anti-gunners... all 45 million of us... then we could put an end to the seemingly endless fight to preserve our rights.

So I don’t hijack this thread I’ll throw in a quit something on Elsie’s........they suck.

Now, even though I hate anti-gun people & companies...can I still please wear Levi’s??? My favorite is the the 569. I just flat out look like shit in Wranglers or Lees. Just let me wear my beloved 569’s and don’t hate on me too hard, please.

Sorry, LeFusil, it looked to me like the Elsie thread had gone off the tracks anyway. Far be it from me to tell you what kind of shoes and britches to wear.

I just figured it might be well to point out who we should be mad at instead of tearing each other down. Can't tell it down here, but the long hot Summer's over...Geo

Hey Geo, if you are really serious about pointing out anti-gunners we should be mad at, how about this guy?

Geo's tribute to an anti-gunner

LeFusil, Have you tried the new L.C. Smith blue jeans? Beans swears by them; they are sewn with a Brown Rotary Bolt so you don't need a belt or suspenders.

@Bluestem....yes, I have tried them. They suck too, horribly engineered, the sides crack (poorly fitted, cheap materials, etc), and the brown rotary bolt only has 5% contact, no way that shitty design is keeping my britches up, works loose after only a few washings and it rubs on my tallywacker. Don’t like em.

It's been 3 weeks since Beans has posted. That's 3x longer than he did on the Lefever forum!

I honestly do think the guy is a paranoid schizophrenic. I've had two close family members with this, and they both displayed similar traits to Beans. The arrogant dismissiveness. Repeating the same things over and over. Obsessive use of generic terms like "Master Gun Smith." And MOST IMPORTANLY, interjecting grandiose lies into otherwise true statements, in aid of garnering credibility.

I kinda feel for the guy...He seems lonely.

But then when he starts blurting nonsense you just have to slap him.

His insistent confusing of Leroy Smith as being "Leroy Hunter" is just another example. He has a whole tale he tells about a set of guns which were a gift to his family from John Hunter.

The 1,000 Grade Nitro Special -- engraved by BOTH Albert Spangler (who never worked at Ithaca, and died before the Nitro was even introduced) and Albert Krause (who also never worked at Ithaca) was perhaps Beans' crowning laugh moment.

And he really DOES believe what he states! He just confuses so much. Like Brophy's mentioning of "transition guns." They do exist, but they are all sideplate Syracuse guns...no Ithaca model "Nitros."

Beans invents 4 "facts" for every 2 real ones he reads.

He's prolly been hanging out over on the 16ga society...

- NDG

Here's an idea... why not direct all that energy toward slapping an anti-gun, anti-NRA, anti-2nd Amendment troll who is actually undermining your right to keep and bear arms, instead of getting upset over some poor harmless annoying guy with an over-active imagination?

Priorities man... just sayin'

Might be something in the water in PA. I have noticed a few delusional posters residing in that State.

Beans came over here for a stretch while the SSM BB was being reconstructed. It was down for over a month, and he had to find another place to "reside". This was it. Pretty soon after the new forum was up and running, he made his way back.

Sing it, Roy..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx8x3LCnYZw

SRH

Amen...pass the plate.