I bought this on Gunbroker.

Nice French double from a renown maker. The bad news is the barrels were cut and 21" is a fairly short barrel. The good news is I have been looking for a fast handling open (read: no) choke gun for woodcock, grouse and rabbits in thick cover. The engraving is very nice and the receiver appears to be "French grey". Anyways, should be an enjoyable gun in the field if I can shoot it. My main concern is the rib hollow being properly filled. I guess I will know when I pick it up. What do you think?

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/778108146

Looks like it would be a really effective bird and bunny getter.
Nice looking fences by the way.
Karl

Thanks Karl, I'm hoping everything is solid on the gun and it patterns well. I've always heard good things about VC...

Given the correct loads, you'd be surprised at how well the open choked gun will do it's job at closer ranges.
Karl

HELICOBLOC, V-C proverbial Stop, Acier Diamant, church windows & straight-hand grip, nothing short 'bout this St. Etienne offering less the tubes.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=488564&page=1

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey, there is some very interesting information on that thread. Any idea why there are two sets of numbers on the frame?

That is a pretty decent old gun. I'm not crazy about hacksawed tubes, but, if you have a good use for it, you got a great deal. Of late, many double guys are convinced they simply can't be seen shooting less than 32" tubes, but, lots of my guns have 26" barrels, and seem just fine in a grousy thicket, or, a snowy cattail slew, when I'm trying to quickly find my Setter, who is on point.
Guns get kinda LOUD when the barrels are cut short like that.

Shoot it in good health.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

You're absolutely right. My 25.5" barreled Bernie Gamecock rings my ears and (this is the topic of a thread I've been thinking of writing for some time), I need to find some hunting ear protection for this season.

That said, I absolutely LOVE long barrel guns in the fields and the waterfowl marshes. I know short barreled guns are not en vogue these days, but as you said, they can be extremely handy in the tight quartered alder and aspen thickets or when walking through walls of greenbriar, grape or multiflora rose. Sometimes, function is just more important than fashion to me. I'm hoping this gun will give me a small advantage in these specific situations. Then again, I could be terribly wrong. I'm still learning...

I should add that the seller didn't list it, but I called and asked if there was a "65" on the flats and he said yes. With all the 12 gauge 2.5" chambered guns I've been acquiring lately, it appears a case or two of RSTs will be on the purchase list before this fall.

I'd hazard a guess that the H512 is a V-C sub who filed it & struck it up for V-C to finish in-house? Then the 1085 to be that of V-C? Would be nice to see an image of the flats.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I will surely do so when I pick up the gun...

Nice gun, sort of plain wood but you are buying it as a shooter and that stock should be stronger than some of the fancier woods I've seen. The best part is it has double proofs (16,366lbs/psi) so you should be able to shoot normal loads through it. I say this because I have a super light French double that has single proofs and because of that I've pretty much restricted my shooting with it to lighter loads. The French do have a thing for sculpted balls don't they!

Steve

PS at the risk of controversy, with 2.5" chambers I simply extend the forcing cones and shoot 2.75" shells though them. I usually use lighter 2.75" loads but it's still nice to be able to use easy to acquire shells when you're out in the middle of nowhere and run out of shells.

Let us face fact, someone out there has already made a modification that would be heavily frowned upon by most on this board.
I'd simply extend the chambers to 2 3/4" if the wall thickness is robust (never seen a French gun that wasn't) and call it good. Mike Orlen could sneak a choke tube in one or both barrels as well, should you want a bit of choke.
An occasional promo load wouldn't likely hurt a thing, except, perhaps, your shoulder.
Most of the conscious bet wetting and hand wringing that goes on here, in regards to short chamber guns, 2 3/4" loads in 2 1/2" chambers, high versus low pressure, whatever, is a moot point with French guns.
Have the WT measured. Lengthen to 2 3/4, assuming it has not been modified or honed, and keep on keeping on.

Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted. I will have to measure the chambers when I pick up the gun because with the barrel 'modification', the chambers may have been lengthened as well.

Looks like a pretty basic V-C. Too bad the barrels were cut. Double St. Etienne proof.

Congrats on the new gun! Do wear hearing protection! I shot a Franchi o/u with 24" barrels for years, everything from snipe to ducks. I like short barrels fine, but this fall I'll be experimenting in the opposite direction to see if my Darne V21 with 75mm (~29.75") barrels can make an effective grouse and woodcock gun. I'm hoping the weight (5# 15oz) and really sweet balance offset the long tubes, even in the thick stuff.

Verney Carron made and make wonderful doubles. Probably the last gun I'll ever sell is a little VC 20b model "Sologne" made in the late 50s. [/URL]
Weighs 5# 6oz with light 67cm tubes and swamped rib. Chokes opened to .003"R, .010"L. Slightly pitted bores and noticeable carry wear only add to its appeal. Wonderful little woodcock gun!

Enjoy your new VC!

Bill

Thanks Bill! Please do report back on you adventures with the long tube grouse gun...

Note that former SAAMI specs for a minimum chamber for the 2 3/4" 12 gauge call for a chamber length of 2.6136" (66.4mm). Minimum chamber diameter at the junction of the cone is given as .798" & a max angle of the cone hrom the horizontal of 5°. With a nominal .729" bore this would give a minimum cone length of .394".

One further dimension is given & this is a diameter of .764"at a point in the cone of 2.808" forward of the breech.

Essentially the bottom line is "IF" the loaded shell is not pushed into the cone itself & "IF" the cone is not so short & steep as to prevent adequate movement of the wads upon exit then an exact chamber length or diameter does not truly matter that much.

Max length of an uncrimped hull is listed at 2760", A roll crimped shell @ 2.530" & fold crimp shell @ 2.410". Within these parameters the moist important thing is that the gun itself was designed to handle the pressures & loads under consideration. As Ted has so well pointed out I would not foresee any problem with a French gun bearing the double proof.

Will also not that while SAAMI no longer lists these shorter cahmbers as their recommendation they do note that former, Shorter, standards are still acceptable for use, as long as the gun was made to handle SAAMI pressures to begin with.

This does not automatically apply to guns built to British, CIP etc proofs unless you "Know" the gun was proofed to handle pressures which were in the SAAMI range, regardless of chamber dimensions.

Overloading can & does lead to cracked stocks, loose actions, bruised & sore shoulders, flinch development & etc, but very seldom actually results in a Blown Up gun.

Depending on other factors a short barreled gun can have a more forward balance point than another with longer barrels. Obviously shortening an existing set of barrels will move the balance point rearward. This may or may not work out for any given individual. One simply has to try it & see.

From a purely ballistic standpoint a short barrel gives up virtually nothing to a long barrel one, within reason of course. I have not done a tremendous amount of duck hunting but all the ducks I ever killed were done with a 26" barreled 12 gauge chocked .012"/024" using 1¼ oz loads of #6 or #5 in lead. Since lead was still legal obviously this was some time ago.

Very good information Miller, thank you...

Weight is just under 5.7 lbs...

Any thoughts on the CMR clearly stamped on the barrels? Tube maker?

Fall, 65 mm chambers - 2 1/2 inch post 1912.

last year we discussed a beautiful Heliduplex Verney-Carron...it led to our creation of a Franco-English gun dictionary. In that Heliduplex line I translated parts of a 1920's VC catalog. I remember the page that discussed "Acier Diamant" but am not sure I ever actually translated it.

Take a look at this line. It might answer some questions (and it has our usual on-going discussion about the Saint-Etienne mark "Helice" on a key). I'd be willing to go back and take a look at the catalog page discussing VC's steel... except I'm of the impression that it was pretty much standard advertisement fall-dee-rah.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=480566&page=4

Re CMR: Here's a relevant post:
https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/i-have-a-....-18073018.html
I have a Double barrel shotgun that has french markins on it. Some of the markings I have found the meanings and others I have not. I hope that you can help me.. It has RB4165(serial number?) on the stock, the barrel, and another pice. The gun also has Champaley Meillier & riou with portee garantie on one side of the barrel and canonniers st etienne on the other side. There are also some ornate markings on the metal. It has an 18.4 CMR also. ANY IDEA? I know that it is French and was made in St. etienne. but i don't know how old it is or what gauge it is.

There are references to CMR on French web sites....here's a comment on a CMR barrel on a Francisque Darne on Passionlachasse.com. It's late out here....midnight - back in Africa ...I'll look futher tomorrow.

http://www.passionlachasse.com/t29333-f-darne-original

See first entry:
Voilà, d'après le livre "les fusils de chasse de Francisque Darne", j'ai pu trouver la période de production et approximativement le type d'arme :
- Francisque darne fabriqué par Jallas
- Cal 16-65
- modèle T n°32
- production entre 1927 et 38
- canon champaley meillier et riou (CMR)

Barrel flats of the 1927-29 CMR barrels on a Darne

Very interesting Argo... based on the information you provided it certainly could point to the tube maker as Champaley Meillier & Riou if they were indeed a canonnier. The CMR on that site is the same location and font as that found on these barrels...

Thanks for the information!