I had never heard of this model until seeing it on the WR site.

Besides the Celtic engraving, is there anything interesting about this model? Is it in demand, or does everyone want their drop locks in a scallop back action?

https://www.wrusedguns.com/view/shotguns/1515506725-westley-richards-12g-heronshaw/

Is "fixed lock" another term for "box lock"?

fixed lock in this case means it is not a drop lock, just a standard boxlock.

I'm completely ignorant on English guns, but is it common to not list what it was reproved for? Does one just assume 1oz. loads with at 2.75" chambered English gun?

Given the age of this gun, it would have been built, I believe, with 2 1/2" chambers. It is described now as a 2 3/4" chambered gun. So, my supposition is that the chambers were opened to 2 3/4" and the gun was reproofed afterward as it should have been.

RTW,

From what I can tell, the Heronshaw model was just a standard WR A&D action with a style of engraving and maybe a little better finish. Usually it will have the WR C-dolls head fastener. The price seems high. WR also built a connaught model boxlock starting in the 60's. These are based on Webley and Scott action.

I see you are looking at WR guns on their website. Have you looked at WR guns available for sale in the states?

Ken

Hi Ken,

Yes, I am looking all around-numerous sites have them for sale here in the US with Guns International being a prime listing location, I gather, for dealers to use.

I have not decided to purchase anything at this point. I have always admired the storied name that WR has, their highly regarded boxlocks-especially those with a scalloped back to the action and the neat drop locks design.

I have no basis for understanding how the market values their guns, or how to judge if any one gun is priced fairly or not. So, I am in the early research phase. I am not a collector-just a guy that likes to hunt with good solid perfuming and light weight guns that look great also.

If you have any suggestions for me, I am all ears and would appreciate any and all advice.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/...mp;qid=&sr=

I found this book extremely informative when it comes to evaluating boxlocks, arguably (by those more qualified than me) the best bang for your buck English guns out there at the moment.

Thanks, Dan-just received my copy a few days ago.

From Ad;
"Original 28� barrels which have recently been reproved, with 2 3/4� chambers and are choked 1/4 and 3/4."
This would indicate it was reproved after the chamber lengthening. Of course would be good to make certain this is true. I am not certain on reproof but original proof was normally 1 1/8 oz for a 2�" chamber & 1� oz for a 2 3/4" chamber.

Westley Richards invented the A&D boxlock and the quality of their older BLEs is excellent. I think, if it conforms to the stated specs, that it would be a very well made, well balanced gun.

The market values Westley Richards at Brand Value level two (BV2) which is 3/4 of the value of BV1. Midgrade BLE's have Original Quality grade of six (OQ6). Current Condition seems close to level three (CC3 - Significent use).

BV2-OQ6-CC3 = $3,480. Remember this number is a value, not a price. Price is a number agreed to by a willing seller and willing and able buyer.

It is a nice, attractive gun and would likely prove sufficiently robust to provide a lifetime of loyal service.

DDA

I have a wonderful WR 16 ga boxlock ejector that has only one screw in trigger plate,most I have seen have a separate screw to remove trigger group.Bobby

How much "Value" would you all add to a gun if it came in it's makers case that was canvas? Or if it was leather? Or, if it was oak and leather?

Cases probably don't add much when they are with the gun. You might add $350-500 depending on the case condition and accessories. However, if you want a case they can get expensive. Some maker's cases are difficult to find.

Ken

In my view it depends on the gun and the case. Average every day gun, average case, not much increase in value. Top drawer stuff cased in O&L, accessories etc add a fair bit of value.

I take kind of a mixed view on this issue. Basically, the gun and case should "go together." A lower OQ and/or lower CC gun in a high condition O&L case is sorta like caramel sauce on sauerkraut --- some things just don't go. A higher OQ grade and /or higher CC gun in a ratty deal (canvas over softwood) case equally doesn't go. The higher the OQ grade the higher the market's expectation that it will come with suitable case.

Usable cases seem to range from about $100 to $800. If the gun comes with a case of higher value than fits to the gun, you could expect to pay the difference in retail value of the case. If the gun comes with a case of value less than you can reasonably expect, you may give it a ding equal to the difference in retail value.

Just about every auction has a plethora of cases. Track the values for a few auctions and you will develop a good idea of case values.


DDA

That's one heck of a nice looking gun and reeks with quality. I have no idea what the market will bear but it is definitely a couple notches above the standard issue Birmy boxlock. I'd be proud to own it. Good luck!

An interesting argument in favor of cases:

https://www.theexplora.com/the-case-for-a-gun-case/

Boy I miss Simon Clode's writing on "The Explora."

No one could write about guns or the gun business like Simon.

rtw, if you are interested in purchasing the gun and have questions you should by all means E-mail Ricky Bond with Westley Richards there in the U.K. If you need Ricky's E-mail address let me know.

I have bought from Ricky/Westley Richards and the experience was great. L.D. will help out with everything on this side too. Ricky and L.D. and the whole W.R. operation are easy to work with - 1st class all the way.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-quot-.cfm?gun_id=101981606&cdn_bp=1

note rare single trigger...these guns are rare enough already, but with a single trigger no less...my oh my...

say you saw it here, so dave gits paid...

and here is a pair...

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...aw-12-ga-cased-pair.cfm?gun_id=101853833

Wow - love these! Never seen a pair before... Punches tons of buttons for me

Surprised by the 23/4 chambers are they in proof

The pair seems to have original 2.5" chambers... Or are you referring to the single?

Are WR boxlocks really bringing that kind of money or is the asking price for that pair ambitious?

I doubt the "Heronshaw" is bringing that kind of money if, as posted above, it is simply a basic A&D boxlock design.

No, to the first part of your question.

Best,
Ted

hard to say what wr boxlocks are bringing, as good ones are so scrace here...

i am liquidating a collection of 12 bore english guns..should have some sales data by new years...

did recently sell a nice sleeved wr 12 bore for $2500...

and a nice sleeved john wilkes for the same money...

Note that the pair of Heronshaw guns has the WR C type bolting. This is what was normally used on the WR detachable lock model & better grade non detachable lock boxlock guns. The lower grade boxlocks used the standard A&D type bolting. I'm not saying that the C type bolting warrants the asking price but the Herronshaw guns are of a higher grade than the basic A & D gun. Personally, I'm not in love with that version of Celtic style engraving.

Not the American market, but direct commentary from Diggory Hadoke on the market at issue:

"That was then, this is now.
Best hammer guns, strangely enough, are still holding their value quite well, despite a general downturn in prices for traditional British guns.

A few years ago, a good Westley Richards boxlock would command £4,500 retail. Today half that would be more likely. Bonham’s sold a pair of Woodward side-locks last month for £10,000. They were bought in a gun shop a decade ago for £25,000 by a friend of mine.

In a dead or declining market it is brave man who dips in and spends money on things rapidly going out of fashion. However, I’m going to tell you why now might be the right time to do just that."

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/shifting-sands

I humbly submit that Dig is a hell of an optimist.

England, much like France, is a country with a very old native population. Both countries have allowed rampant immigration from other countries that have no English or French heritage, have no interest in learning to speak the language of their new home, and no interest in laboring fifty years to support lavish social programs dreamed up by the oldsters who thought they were going to get them. They don’t have a heritage of hunting or shooting, save each other, and in the French example, won’t shoot or eat the wild pigs that are destroying the countryside. When I was traveling to France, buying guns to sell here was a pipe dream. A beat up Charlin that was worth $500, here, was still a $3000 gun in France. That, has changed, dramatically, both in England and France. I saw some shopper type ads from England for what appeared to be grandpas serviceable English made box lock for 100-200 dollars worth of British currency.

They weren’t selling. Same in France.

We, are the end of the line. Average age on this board has got to be 50+. When we are done buying, I suspect that will be the end of that.

Best,
Ted

I’ve been over here a month.
Visited many gun and sporting goods shops.

The use of non tox renders old guns useless.

Many investment grade guns are being sent to auction in the south.

Many auction estimates are in the toilet.

Boomers are done buying, the market is collapsing.

It doesn’t help that Brownings last 3 shooting lifetimes for most.
Shops are full of them.

Oh, and a country side typically loaded with stocked birds is as empty as the Sahara. (Bird flu, Brexit)

I’ve stayed in premium shooting hotels across Scotland, and they are mostly empty.

It’s pretty bleak up here.

I’m making a currency play, and am moving my shooting budget over here for the next few years.
The BP hasn’t been so weak since the last time we jacked up interest rates. Early 80’s.

I'm pretty sure the average age on this board has been 50+ since its formation. Yeah, the market changes but things are hardly dead. Business has been good for me. I sell more rifles than shotguns but both have been moving just fine and plenty of people are taking advantage of the low prices over seas. I'm not quite ready to bury my doubles just yet. Dig might be an optimist but Ted is clearly a pessimist. I'll just keep on keeping on.

Dig has to be an optimist, he’s a seller. Buy low, sell maybe….? He certainly made the market for English boxlocks 10+ years ago. So what I’m hearing is if you want to import a British gun wait six months and if the import fees don’t kill you you’ll get a deal.

English doublegons are works of art...the epitome of form and function in their class...simiar to winchester lever rifles and colt single action revolvers...so long as there are men who appreciate masculine art forms, then there will be demand for classic english shotguns...there is a limited supply with an ever increasing demand...as young men mature and learn what is really important...

which in the long run will provide moderate investment value...i hope...

Much as I hate to admit it, I bought my WR scalloped action boxlock (a 1960s vintage gun) about 10 years ago at a lot closer a retail price to the one "a few years ago" than the current market price. I guess it will fall to my children to dispose of, but they won't know and at that point I won't care.

Clearly, a realist. The guys who are on the board at age 50, now, are not the guys who were 50 at it’s inception. The renaissance to double guns, circa mid 1980s to 2000, driven by writers and magazines now gone, is clearly over. I didn’t imply that I was getting rid of my doubles, or that anyone else was, either. But, most of us are fairly well settled with what we have. The guys coming up behind us might shoot an O/U at some point, but, that is as close as most of them will get to a double. Nobody is lining up to import new doubles from Europe into the US.

If you want me to believe business is really good, tell me the part about the apprentice you are bringing up to do your work, importing, and buy your profitable business from you.

Best,
Ted

Obviously members here have aged, seems common everywhere. Yes, the peak in the double gun market has passed. Most of us may be pretty well settled in our current SxS's but plenty of people are still buying and not just doubles but a variety of vintage guns. I could never have predicted how much vintage British bolt guns have risen in value the last few years. A year or so ago I sold a British single shot for a client for over 35K, I do not know of another that has sold for more. The market shifts but interest in vintage guns is not dead.

The apprentice could not make the move to my new shop, too far of a commute for him. I'm too young to sell my business and generally one man craftsman operations are not in much demand on the market no matter the craft. Gunsmiths are certainly no exception in that regard. What I will tell you about importing is that it has been surprisingly strong and I hear the same from the auction houses and foreign dealers. Americans are buying plenty of guns, maybe not as many doubles as 10 years ago but they still are buying.

Someone is purchasing old guns, just look at the various auction results. The August RIA brought in over 23 million dollars.

The laws of supply and demand can be inexorable.

Take the 12 bore Parker-Hale 602, a box lock ejector made for them by Ugartecha with chopper lump barrels and disc set strikers.

In April 1985 they retailed at £270.64, but with inflation had gone up to £349.50 by February 1985. The 2022 equivalent is £996, but I suspect if Ugartecha were still in business they would be priced higher than that today.

There are a couple on GuntraderUK, one at £375 and the other at £120 “to clear”. Both with another lifetime of usefulness no doubt.

One at Southams sale last Saturday went for a hammer price of £12, so £15 with buyers commission.

They would be worth much more on your side of the pond where there is still a demand, but sadly would cost as much to export, ship and import as a Boss or Purdey.

Yep.
When I saw a pair of Holland Royals laying in a pile to be sent on, as though they were just another gun in the pile, I got the message.

Non lead shot, loss of the game market, and firearm permits are making old box locks more valuable as tomato stakes.