Wondering who and what else I could look for

Lindner used Sauer actions. Many companies used that model Sauer action.

Perhaps the question might be who besides Charles Daly did Lindner make guns for?

I’ve been told that not only did he use Sauer actions Sauer had him work on some of their higher grade guns. Either it was done as a outside contractor or in stead of paying for the rough actions. A high grade Sauer is a very nice double indeed. I made the mistake of passing on one 30 years ago and still regret my mistake.

Sauer Fine Guns

Who knows with absolute certainty that any of that is true, but just knowing how ginormous the Sauer works was, the money they had, I tend to think they themselves had all of the talent necessary, to produce every gun marked as a Sauer totally and completely “in house”. They had no need at all to use outworkers, there was plenty of in house talent to rival any gunmaker in Germany at the time. Sauer was Germany’s version of W&C Scott.

The Sauer I failed to buy was a 12 ga, Sauer which I am sure was a pre WWI gun with some of the finest metal and wood on it I have seen on any Sauer of that period. The fore end was much greater than a splinter but not a full beaver tail. It was just comfortable in the hand. The checker was very fine, I expect it was finer than 24 lines per inch. The seller claimed it was 28 or 30. The skill to cut that fine a job is beyond anything I'd ask anyone to do. Metal was engraved but not overly so and not it the deep Germanic style you often see. It was just a finely proportioned gun which I should have bought. One of many.

Larry B. Schuknecht, the custodian of Mr. Dietrich Apel's website, has made a lovely effort & complied info on mechanic H.A. Lindner & his wares that might answer some of your questions:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-lindner/

AKAH had averts for H.A. Lindner's wares.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

That Larry B Shucknecht is a good guy. "The Dutchman" is a pretty good stock maker and gunsmith too. He's stocked two guns for me and the work on both was very good.

Thanks Ellenbr for posting the link to the Lindner article archive, pretty much everything one would care to know about Lindner guns is in there.

Thanks for the link, it was great to read and learn from.
Karl

A lot of the better guns from most , if not all, of the makers were engraved by "outside engravers". "Inhouse engravers" were usually kept employed with standard patterns, but more importantly, the best engravers were usually self employed and received more for their work. Some started out as employees of a maker and went "on their own" later when their skill increased. Since they were known by that maker, they were often called upon for custom work.
Mike

T. Kilby



William Donn with Kilby barrels



J. Donn & Bro. (William)

Drew, those are what I'm dreaming about

I guess I might have misread the question. I thought the poster was looking for guns named by others that originated from the Lindner/Daly group. I think that Daly , Jacob, Kuhn, Donn, and quite a few others used Lindner sourced guns. I can probably think of 5 or so more if necessary.

Mr. Hallquist:

Let's hear it while things are clicking.....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I guess I misspelled Jakob in the previous post. You can add Overbaugh, Schaefer, Thomas Golcher, another Golcher stick in my mind, but I don't have a pic,

There must be a few more.

Spot on Mr. Hallquist. Overbaugh(Charles E.) was the one that I couldn't bring forward. But I'm sure all are noted in one of the Lindner - Daly threads. I'll search a bit.....


Cheers,


Raimey
rse

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post291724

And I seem to recall that Emil Flues rolled one out????


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Don't forget J.P. Lower:

"Seems J.P. Lower was a retail outlet for the wares of Charles E. Overbaugh and A.O. Zischang."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post291733

And there were a couple of California firms that peddled Daly's wares???

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

http://www.icollector.com/Prussian-made-...-York_i10488877

You know, this Overbaugh from above is pretty spiffy.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

another Overbaugh

I'm late to the thread :-). Daryl and Drew hit most of them. Two more -

- William R. Schaefer & Son - Boston (just a timing thing based on William bringing a son into the business)

- E.C. Schmidt - Boston (former William R. Schaefer & Son head gunmaker)

I have a hammer gun by R.F. Schaefer , Boston. It has a pinned forend and firing pins of early design. Belgian marks. Where does he fit into the Schaefer group. I'd say it is a very early gun.

Gentlemen,
Is there any thing out there, information wise, that says that these makers actually built these guns from supplied actions & barrels (in the white) or if they just retailed finished guns that were imported with their names on them?

Daryl,

While Richard F. ("Dick") Schaefer was William R. Schaefer's second son (John Frederick ("Rudolph") Schaefer being the first), and he was formally trained by his father as a gun maker, the production date of your hammer gun may not jive with the Richard Schaefer being the "maker" - i.e., Dick would have been awfully young at the time. I'm not sure what to make of the disconnect. I can conjur up some explanations, but I'd be guessing.

LeFusil,

While I believe many Lindner-made guns were simply retailed by others in the US, I believe others were completed/finished in the US to some degree. I should probably replace the word "many" to "most" in the previous sentence as Schoverling, Daly, & Gales (SD&G) was the biggest seller of Lindner-sourced guns. I don't believe SD&G finished any Daly guns in the US.

I do think other US-based "makers" actually did complete/finish Lindner-sourced guns (action/barrels). Specifically, IMO William R. Schaefer & Son did more than retail already completed guns. Michael Petrov and I traded lots of emails on this topic and that is the conclusion we came to. Depending on the time frame, W.R. Schaefer employed 4-7 (mostly German) gunsmiths/gunmakers (according to Census records) so he certainly had the capability. Period periodicals refer to the large workshop and the company workmen "making guns."

When I sit period-similar Daly and Schaefer & Son guns next to each other, there are some subtle differences. While this might be the natural variation in the gun making, there were subtle differences in the stocking and other minor features to convince me that some work had been done in the US on the Lindner-source barrels and actions. Any of course, the earlier Schaefer hammer guns were "made" in the US.

The existing literature on William R. Schaefer is very thin. I have had a two-part article sitting at 70% completion for about three years. I need to get off my butt and finish it. Schaefers are some of favorite guns.

Ken

Thank you. Very interesting indeed. I appreciate your research and educated opinions. I smile every time I see the mention of an old name here, Mike Petrov was a good dude. I met him in person at his home in Anchorage in 2007, it was a memorable visit for sure.

I’m in 100% agreement with your assessment on Lindner marked actions bearing American makers/stores names. It just makes sense.

Can you answer this question now.....is there any evidence at all that Lindner had the facilities to actually manufacture complete guns (forging to finished) in house? Everything single thing I’ve read and the pictures I’ve seen of the Lindner House/factory, points to no. The operation just wasn’t that big. It seems to me that Lindner was more than likely a finisher of guns. Thoughts?

I'll throw in my 1¢ worth. In 1905 or thereabouts, H.A. Lindner name a big expansion in anticipation of his son Ernst Linder(6.07.1883-16.06.1915) obtaining his master mechanic's sheepskin. Although regarding the forgings, they would have held w/ Schilling who had the machinery until that source terminated.

I do believe that Josef Jakob put his finishing touch on his wares. But with all that said. H.A. Lindner's Quality Control Stamp/Mark is seen on most if not all of Jakob's wares so my question would be @ what point in manufacture would H.A. Lindner apply his quality seal of approval.


For now I think S,D & G learned their craft of sourcing from
Böker where both Schoverling & Daly both served a stint. From that Daly, either thru Schoverling's contacts or other had a huge importing umbrella where they fed the hunger of the American retailers. IF not, whey would they fight so hard for rough tubes, etc in the Tariff fight?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Once again I cannot say enough about Larry B. Schuknecht's efforts to keep Mr. Dietrich's dream alive.



See Nr. 17 after Nr. 29 Original Krieghoff factory & prior to Nr. 17 August Menz home:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/travel-...makers-in-suhl/

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

H.A. Lindner's quarters were near Stadtpark & across the street from Hänel's concern as well as very near the Old Jail, which is now an archive. So, I'd say there is good probability that the Lindner's records might be resting there.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Lefusil - I agree with your point that Lindner should not be thought of as a "maker" in the same sense that you might think of J.P. Sauer as a "maker" for example. Heinrich was certainly bringing in action forgings, ,barrels, etc., and of course, the volume of guns he "made" were orders of magnitude less than the big German names. Based on Hans Pfingsten's research, Lindner used a network of his own staff (6-12) plus outworkers to complete/finish the guns.

The gray area in these discussions is always on the definition of what constitutes a "gun maker" and where a particular maker falls on that spectrum - from doing absolutely everything in-house at one end to simply engraving one's name on the action on the other.

Daryl,

Don't have a Frank Kuhn 16 ga that is a Lindner type action?

John

Kuhn has Lindner markings.

Daryl - let's see the Kuhn!

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post487394

Cheers,

Raimey
rse