Say friends, I was reading some artical at my doctors office on the Winchester model 21 of day past and the new CSMC model 21. In short, the artical lead the reader to conclude CSMC model 21 was better built gun and value. I think the magazine was a older gun dog magazine or it may have been a quick article in guns on pegs. But non the less. Anyone else agree with better gun and value. I honestly don't know what to think.

Rich

Having never owned an original Winchester 21, nor a CSMC 21, I am a poor, poor judge. But, that said, in many years of messing around with double guns, the number of defects that I am personally aware of with Winchester manufactured 21s, compared to the number of defects with CSMC manufactured 21s, has led me to believe strongly that the CSMC guns are nowhere near the quality gun that the Winchester was/is. I know of a man who returned a CSMC 21 fourteen times to CSMC to have defects, and damage done by them while they were trying to fix defects, repaired and made right, only to finally give up and after a year and a half sell the gun for 60% of purchase price.

Personally, based strictly on anecdotal evidence, I don't think there is any contest. The Winchester is the better gun hands down, IMO.

SRH

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Listen to the experts

The Win. M21 is an artifact of a bygone era of gunmaking in the US. The CSMC version is a replica of that era. The distinction can make a difference in both purchase and resale price. Gil

You'll hear mixed reviews on the CSMC 21's, per the above. I've owned 3 original 21's, all early double trigger/extractor guns. One remained in its original factory condition. The other two had had various modifications: restocked, custom engraving, etc. I didn't have any problems with any of the 3.

That being said, I saw problems with original 21's at the old UP SxS shoot, including one on which the stock basically self-destructed when it doubled during the flurry event. No gun is totally bulletproof, I guess.

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I once saw a CSM 21 that had maybe 3/16" of solder between the muzzles. The gun was otherwise well fit and finished, and seemed to function without issue, but that muzzle thing seemed off to me inasmuch as I can't recall having seen that condition on a Winchester.

For what it costs for a new-made 21, a person can go out and buy an awful lot of original gun.

I wonder if the CSMC 21’s will ever be collectibles like the originals?? Maybe, maybe not.

I think the CSMC 21's are best suited to fondle and admire. and brag about having when you get a chance to show one off, either in front of your shooting buddies or on an internet site, rather than shooting to any extent. Lou @ CSMC discouraged me from ordering one several years ago.
JR

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An indicator of how well the CSMC M21's will be accepted by collectors would be how folks now view the Parker Reproductions. I am not in that loop. But compare what a Browning made (in Japan) Model 12 28 ga. brings compared with the Real McCoy. Gil

Bob, please note I said "shooting to any extent". If you only put 100 or so rounds a year through one, you're probably ok. But thousands, not so much.

They are not reliable. Pretty, but trouble. Kind of like an XKE with Lucas electricals.
JR

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Listen to the experts

People who've had troubles have plastered their predicaments all over the internet. To deny that is folly.

I can't tell if the % is the same as competing firms. But it doesn't "seem" so.

There's about $20K in reasons I ordered a pair of Miroku's in lieu of a pair of CSMC Revelations.

John,

Definitely agree with your comments. And admire you for your honesty in making them.

Fortunately my nightmare is behind me. But it sure would have saved me and numerous of my friends much grief (and wasted dollars) had Lou discouraged us.

Tim

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=437797

Tim, after your ordeal I bet there are two parties that wished you hadn't bought the gun; CSMC and you. A personal financial disaster for you and a PR nightmare for them of their own making. That gun had a minimum of 28 trips in a UPS buggy and could probably "kennel up" into the truck on command. Gil

A lot of comments and insight. When I was at CSMC last September, my focus was on the A10, I spent a good 2 plus hours there and I glanced over there sxs model 21. I know the sales rep was pushing me towards there model 21 over and under grand American which I had no interest in. I'll be back up in that neck of the woods in June, so I'll sneak away and take a closer look at there 21 sxs.

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Listen to the experts

I own and shoot several Winchester 21's.....the only issues that have come to light has been a couple of 21's that some shade tree blacksmith had been inside and screwed the trigger up. I've been around several people who purchased CSMC 21's and had more problems with them than they should have. These were early CSMC 21's and maybe the quality control improved.
In my humble opinion, you cannot compare John Olin's Winchester 21's to Tony's; the Winchester 21 is an American classic and the CSMC 21's haven't been around long enough to qualify as such. I would rather have a pre-war 21 (or even late 40's to 50's) than a brand new CSMC 21; the Winchester has some experience - some stories it can never tell, but stories I can wonder about. Having said that, if Mr. Cash would like to gift me with one of his CSMC 21's for Father's Day, I would certainly shoot it all summer and next fall and present a full report on the gun in this forum. LOL

Read Tim Wolf's posts on this link to the SSM Forums, and read the linked thread on shotgunworld, which he provided, for a better explanation. He sent me a complete report, with pictures, of the issues he had with the gun and with CSMC, at my request. I would never repost it without his permission, but it is very eye-opening.

Everyone with an interest in CSMC's guns should read this, IMO.

https://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/showthread.php?7314-CSMC-New-Gun/page2

SRH

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When’s the Estate sale?


_________________________
If there’s a 20 in the bunch put a sticker on it “Save for Lonny “. Thanks.

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Post deleted...

I can't comment on CSMC quality control based on experience with one of their 21's. Have neither owned nor shot one. However . . . if their current standard of quality control is based on the new Fox A Grades they're making for Savage, they've got a serious problem.

I field tested one of those guns, liked it well enough that I wanted to buy one. The only thing I didn't like was the matte finish on the barrels. No problem, I was told. The production models would all have blued barrels. So they send me one: It had both blued barrels and better choke tubes (notches for the wrench rather than the "friction fit" RBL chokes that were in my loaner gun). Then I looked at the stock. The checkering looked like it was 2 tone. Turned out that was because the checkering panel on the wrist was cut finer on top than on the bottom. Like two different settings on their laser cutting machine or something? Really bizarre.

Anyhow, I returned it. Reported my problem through the PR guy, figured that had to be a "one off" goof. Also figured Savage might do a double check before the second gun came my way--especially since I was all set to give them some positive press. So gun #2 arrives. Didn't even need to look at the stock this time to know they'd screwed up again. Matte finish barrels. Shit! Then I did look at the stock . . . and the checkering had the same fouled up issue as the last gun they sent me. (Checkering on the loaner gun I field tested was fine.)

Anyhow, shame on CSMC for passing on crap like that on a gun with an MSRP of $5,000. Of course Savage also has to take a hit for not even looking at a gun before they send it out. Damned shame that two American gun companies can't do better than that.

I'm so stupid.
When a bunch of experts who've never even been in the same zip code
as a CSMC Model 21 tell me it's no good based on their experience with other guns, I should listen.

Listen to the experts

That is a nice spread. I like the manly piece on far right. It looks like Duck or Magnum grade.

Winchester Akbar!

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Listen to the experts.

You certainly have some nice guns Bob. That said, it would seem to me that someone considering a CSMC 21 should read through Tim's story before making the commitment. Glad you ended up with a good one. Enjoy it in good health.
Steve

Bob, what you are reading and hearing, as well as experiencing yourself, is the development of a brand's reputation. We know it as branding and it means something in the market place. That's why brand names have value.....it's a short cut to assessing the LIKELIHOOD the product will be what the consumer expects. It's why Purdey, Boss, H & H and Woodward are in a class by themselves on Rocketman's valuation charts.

You have an obvious enthusiasm for M21's. But clearly, there are some reasons why the originals are held is such high esteem and not all of the those attributes are making themselves known with the Galazan guns. Your positive experience doesn't negate another's negative. Ultimately the brand value will be the sum of everyone's experiences....with product, with price and with customer service. Larry's reference to another CSMC product is very germane to this discussion....it's the same maker and the marketplace makes inferences.

You guys continually amuse me with your negativity and cynicism. Money spent will never trump physics and the physics is that ANYTHING used to a maximum capacity will have a lifespan and anything mechanical can break. I deal every day with race engines and race cars. Some work great and some are real duds. Sometimes the reasons (good or bad) are never discovered sometimes everything is "identical" and there is still a vast discrepancy in performance. Parts can break on the first cycle or the millionth... it doesn't really mean someone's production is junk or that every piece is junk.
Do Ferrari's not go to the shop? Ducati sport bikes require considerably more maintenance than a comparable Honda. Can either break ? Yes? Either brand has far more technology and speed (capacity) than 95% of the owners will even need or even use. 1% may push them to their limits... just like a shotgun. Most spend a lot of time sitting. Listen to the first hand experiences, take them with a grain of salt, and decide what works for you.
But to give my opinion of the direct question that started the thread: Which one is the better value?
Where do you find value? Resale, shooting performance, personal appreciation? As far as I am concerned they are two different animals in the same kingdom. I'd rather have an old one. but either one more than covers any need or use I could ever have for it.

You're the one calling yourself stupid, no one here did. Neither did anyone here refer to themselves as experts. What I will say is that you are narrow-minded and cynical.

SRH

Never said that, Bob. Said I could not comment specifically on the CSMC Model 21. But I CAN comment very specifically on the Savage Fox A Grade, which is also a CSMC product. And on which their quality control sucks. Might be you've seen one or two that look fine. I've seen two--sent to me as potential purchases--that looked like crap. And I just saw another one in a Cabela's Gun Library that had the matte finish barrels . . . which, I guess, is OK if you like those. And at least it didn't have the screwed up checkering. I'm guessing Cabela's would have known better than to put it out for sale if it had.

I have a limited experience with CSMC Guns, I have seen first hand a seven or so. All belonging to friends.

I do not doubt the earlier poster and others as well have had problems with CSMC produced guns. Further that their problems are a PR issue

All my friends who own CSMC products love them and have not reported any of the problems or disconnects others have experienced.

Ever heard of ‘kennel blindness’?

So am I to join the Greek Chorus if my experience is different?

CSMC has made and sold a lot of guns, it is likely some if not the majority of owners had some good experiences.

In my earlier post I stated what I know first hand as others have, if that is different then it is.

Just because my post followed yours, doesn’t mean I was referring to you, old colonel. I was not referring to you as being kennel blind. Sorry you misunderstood.

I stand corrected

I know what buzz meant, but had never heard of it until I looked it up. Good comparison.

SRH

An expert diagnosis

My personal experience is, I had a Model 21-1 made for me with a set of 30" 20 gauge and twenty eight gauge barrels.
I did ok shooting the 28 gauge set but could not hit the broad side of a barn with the 20's.
Traded it on my Boss and was a happy day for me.
I had heard of issues with barrel regulation on these CSMC 21's.
When I ordered I discussed this with CSMC.
Beautiful gun. Would I get another? Yeah probably, but would send off to verify barrel regulation.

I currently have an order with CSMC for a grade 6 Model 21 3" 20 gauge, two barrel set, 30" & 32" vent rib. Both sets are to be choked much tighter than any manufactuter ever did in the originals, especially Winchester, which I have found are more openly choked than other makes. So barrel regulation will be an important issue for me.

SxS Only

I'm pretty sure Winchester New Haven only made about 130 sets of 30" 20 gauge barrels.
To the best of my knowledge (hang out, the experts will chime in soon about every other makers guns that offered 32"ers)
there are ZERO Winchester 21's, 20 gauge with 32" tubes. What a terrific option/feature. How great for you.

I think the 30" and 32" set will be fantastic. If I may ask, what will you be using the tight chokes for?
Hope you will post pictures when you get it.
Even though I did not have good luck with mine I would probably buy another. But would make sure it was regulated properly.
I had heard this was an issue with these guns. But there are guys out there winning tournements with CSMC Model 21's.
Beautiful guns.
I also once owned a CSMC Fox CE grade, the second one ever made.
Beautiful gun indeed. Wish I had that one back.

I am an avid turkey hunter, usually hunt three states each year with six tags, but I have hunted in Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, New York, Missori, Ohio, West Virgina, Pennsylvania when I was younger. I did own a Benelli 3 1/2" back in 1994, long gone, but fell for the SxSs and never looked back. I have searched for years to find a gun to fit my needs, even bid on a Fox CE last fall, came in second highest bidder. The Fox though had only one full choke barrel (.032), as I recall, some pitting, reamed out bores, short chambers and old wood for over $23,000 with premium. Glad now I didn't win! The only gun, I decided, to fit the bill was my first choice for years now, the 21. Built to shoot the modern 3" loads and I just love the 21s vent rib barrels. I want a tight choked semi-auto performance, but in a SxS configuration.

SxS Only

Good morning Mike
While expert John Roberts might tell you these guns are only good for bragging and pretending to shoot,
I am in awe of CSMC's American manufacturing ability to produce such a fine line of absolutely beautiful, spectacular shooting doubles.

Hey Only, it's probably a good thing you only have six tags.
If I read it correctly on this thread, an expert claims that the CSMC 21's disintegrate after just a few more trigger pulls.
When do you get your new gun?

I had to do the same. And yup.

Hey John, where did your post go?
No you haven’t bruised my ego and I’m sorry you don’t like my pictures.
Oh, and I’m sure an expert such as yourself has forgotten more about Win 21’s than I’ll ever know.
All that being said, I’d still like you to expound on some of the dumb claims you’ve made.

Bob, you deleted 8 posts in this thread. Why on earth did you stop? Those deleted posts are some of the best I've ever seen from you.

Remember a few weeks back when you felt the need to try to stop me from pointing out that advice from Jagermeister, a guy who doesn't even own any doubles, should be ignored? Maybe you should discuss your thoughts with him. I'm SURE he knows more about Model 21's than everyone else here put together. And you both like using that same crazy smiley face, so you probably share the same mentality.

Dziadu, I can't see what you wrote. Never mind. i'm sure you have added nothing of value to this topic.

Hey, Bob, could you post that photo of the 21s all lined up again? You haven't posted it lately .............well, you did, but you deleted it.

We're forgetting what 21s look like. And, I know how good it would make you feel to show them again.

SRH

Bob. Of the estimated 130 sets of 20 Gauge 30 " barrels 0n 21 winchesters, how many 30 Inch barrels do you think were made in factory 3 Inch chambers??? I know that Winchester New Haven started to advertise 3 inch 20 guns in 1953. So that makes for a fairly short run.

Yes, we shoot 21 Winchesters and no issues. We do not own any of Tonys guns so have nothing to comment on them. They sure do look good to this old fellow though. I remember over 60 years ago when I was in high school, the ugly girls always used to poke fun at the really shinny girls. Some things never change.

I do not hunt and hardly ever get to a trap club

For me, because of the history, it's fun to own and occasionally shoot my original condition early, 12 gauge, standard grade Model 21. I have no interest in, or use for, a CSMC.

Good evening long range
I'd only be guessing but I'd bet fewer rather than more.
I don't believe the 3" chambered 20 gauge was limited to just 30" barrels. Perhaps some of the experts will weigh in.

I can account for 2.
Here's a 1947 2 barrel set with 30" "Magnum" barrels.

Hey Stan, is it OK if I show a picture?

The original owner was a young woman when her father took her to A & F in New York and bought her this set.
She and her father hunted Quail and Duck





Here's a second, 30" Full and Full, 3" factory chambers.

Another couple of pictures, Is that OK with you Stan?





When I acquired this one it didn't shoot straight.
Strip and re lay the barrels, restock and restore.
It was in badly need but what a gun now.

Interestingly enough, long barrels and 3" chambers are just 2 of the features available on a New Britain (CSMC) Model 21.

Bob Cash wrote ...

Interestingly enough, long barrels and 3" chambers are just 2 of the features available on a New Britain (CSMC) Model 21.

Yes, besides custom engraving, I also ordered a skeleton butt plate, double triggers and a slim beavertail.

SxS Only

You made my day, Bob. I have something to daydream about.

SRH

I’ve got one too, Bob. Mine is a 20 ga graded gun, 2-barrel set, one barrel is 28” sk-1, sk-2 and 2 nd barrel is 30” F/F with 3” chambers. Are you sure they are that rare since I have one and you have TWO? Seem common here.

Sorry for the dark image (and apologies to Stan for yet even more pictures.)
A skeletal butt and slim "Hession" forends were two great features I also chose.

Did you say Custom engraving ?






Buzz,
According to Schwing, 3" chambers were available from 1932 to 1949 in 12, 16 and 20.
1950 to 1955, 12 gauge only.
1955 and later, once again available in 12 and 20.
Rare on 30" 20 gauges, maybe not. Scarce, maybe.

Bob, you might quit trying to justify your 21 obsession long enough to notice that Stan was referring to that same time-worn picture of the the 21's-on-astroturf photo. He tried to pay you a compliment on finally posting something different. Guess you were too busy with the font/colored text feature to notice.

Your crazy 21 expert,
John Roberts

No real need to justify anything to you.
However perhaps you could please explain what you meant when you made this moronic statement...


Does your mouth often just flop open and dumbass crap just spills out of it?
Do you have any information based in fact that might support the imbicylic claims that you made?
Hmmmm?

Uh, that would be to justify to yourself, Bob. That "moronic" statement that any moron understands means IF YOU SHOOT ONE A LOT, YOU'LL INCREASE THE CHANCE OF BREAKAGE, IF YOU DON'T, MAYBE NOT. How dense are you? Wait, I think you've already answered that question.

I'm done here with you and this subject.
JR

So John,
When you said this...

It sounded to me like you had some specific knowledge or expertise on the subject matter.
When you now say if you use something a lot it increases the chances that it may break,
your statement Is not really specific to any particular CSMC product but could really apply to anything made by the hand of man
I.e roller skates, can openers, or a ball point pen. Do I have that right?

I’m sorry to be so dense but your logic and thought process is sometimes difficult to follow.

Bob,

I can give you some specific information on my CSMC model 21 longevity or more precisely lack of longevity.

I ordered a CSMC 12 ga 21-1 3-27-06 & the gun was delivered to me in late November of 06. I ordered is specifically to shoot in SxS events & it has been shot every year since then @ events like the Southern, The UP, Metford, Hausermannn's & the Tunnel of Trees for an estimated 2500 rounds per year so lets say 25000 rounds over the last 10 years & with low pressure 7/8 oz or 1 oz loads exclusively.

I sent the gun back to CSMC in 2007 for adjustment of the trigger pulls & safety tension & to correct a cosmetic issue on how the forend was fitted. The gun was returned to me with buggered & mistimed screws but otherwise CSMC did manage to correct the initial issues.

The gun has been reliable as far as function but it is now loose & off face to the extent that a .002" shim on the hook is required to tighten it up (adjusting the locking bolt stop all the way in won't correct the loosness).

To me, 25K rounds is not a lot of shooting for a M21 to go off face & would indicate that the hook was never fitted to the joint pin properly in the first place & based on my experience I would agree with John Roberts comments.

Hey Bob, if you are going to refer to John's claims as imbecilic, at least try spelling imbecilic correctly. When you do stuff like that, you look like an imbecile ... which many of us already know you are.

Joe J. told me that do to high demand Winchester Model 21 is good gun for someone that plans to live here forever or for very long time. It would not be very good choice for someone like me. Mr. Cash has good style please stop giving him hard time.

Winchester Akbar.

Jagermeister, I'd assume that the reason Joe J. said a Model 21 would not be a good gun for someone like you is that he knew you are nothing but a tire-kicker who would just put the gun on Layaway. Then you would come here and lie and brag about the Model 21 you bought. Then you would back out of the deal once again.


Post #476286 3/27/17

It was pathetic to see you post about several of those guns, acting as if you actually owned and used them. Do you remember what you told us about the great recoil pad on the Remington 870... even though you never actually took possession of it?



Which brings us to the question once again of why we have an internet pretender and fake like you who makes thousands of posts on a double gun forum, but doesn't own any doubles???

You should ask Bob if he'll let you use some of his pictures of Model 21's so you can claim you bought them. I'm sure a lot of people will believe you, even after being caught in so many lies.

Nothing says you is in good hands
quite like having Jagermeister put Keith in his place on your behalf.
Thank you Jager, I’m sure this time he’s gonna listen.

Bob, is it ‘your’ or ‘you’re’ ? Best get that straight before you start sparring with Keith, otherwise, you know there will be no match. Sorry, the King’s English is important......

Edited by Bob Cash (4 minutes 46 seconds ago)
Edit Reason: Buzz made me

Great Bob! Love it!

Ok, good college try, Bob; still not 100% though.....Undoubtedly, Keith will listen now.

So this raises a question. Does a SXS shotgun loosen from shots fired or from cycling the action open and closed? 25,000 rounds would equate to at least 12,500 openings and 12,500 closings of the action. Actual cycles should be much higher. So does the action bar spring open, ala Tobin, or does the hinge pin/hook wear from cycling? Makes no sense to me that recoil from shooting a gun would wear the hinge. Not in any way making an excuse for CSMC just curious.
Chief

Yes and yes. The two are inseparable. But you could open and close a sxs (or o/u) 25,000 times without firing it, and it would be much tighter than doing the same thing and shooting it.
JR

I believe this applies to all firearms.
"when fired, they behave not unlike a crooked string of coupling rail cars."
Additionally, clearance gaps accelerate toward excess as round count increases.

Part of the promotion of original M21's was their longer life in use.

I'll have to accept that as I won't possibly be able to prove or disprove it. I do know that I have a gun that has app. 10,000 rounds through it over 20+ years. Harsh, full power hunting loads mostly along with some lighter ones. This particular type of gun is known to "shoot loose" with heavy use, what defines heavy use? I am just now starting to be able to detect a very small bit of play in the joint. I am diligent in keeping the hinge clean and lubed. I also am in the habit of opening a gun every time I have a chance, both at home and in the field. The gun probably has easily double that amount of cycles on the hinge. The gun will surely continue on as built since a couple newer guns are bearing the brunt of the abuse now.

Chief

https://books.google.com/books?id=9SvbdIv4OKYC&pg=PA35&lpg

Interesting read, and yes I skimmed a few bits! It's telling that some of the vaunted names failed pretty early on in the torture test. Also that those same guns give, for the most part excellent service in real world use.
Is it true that most guns designed for high volume shooting are O/U and in the conventional sense don't have a hinge pin?

Chief,
I shoot a great deal, 20,000 cartridges at game is an astounding count.

I can tell you that 10k rounds a year (spread out over numerous shotguns) wears out equipment. And, breaks some.

I take the volumes people say they shoot with a grain of salt.

They don't twist when fired, unlike a SxS.

Clapper Z I think you misunderstood my count. On average I would shoot a couple boxes at pheasants and a couple boxes at grouse per year for the 25 years that I lived in paradise. That would account for 2500 rounds more or less. The rest were several flats per year of Walmart type promo loads, these are not gentle. This was while my kids were home, we shot a lot of barnyard trap and some local league shoots and SC. At the time said gun was my only gun. They don't have odometers on them but I bet I'm not far off. I never said the gun never was broken, trigger wouldn't work once and a broken spring as I recall. My hat's off to you that you can endure 10K/year!

Chief, If nothing else, it's an expensive hobby.
$15.00/rd of Skeet to shoot RST's in a vintage firearm.
$90.00/100 to shoot clays with them.

2500rd/mos is about $550.00 plus range fees for OTC Herter's Low re-coil 1050 fps cartridges. Roughly $1,000.00/mos. Could you reload 10 cases/mos and save some? Sure, but that's all kinds of work at the press.

There aren't many retirees that I run into running that many rounds through anything vintage.

I suppose there might be someone, but then the finishes on the guns wear off as well. They get progressively looser, then things start breaking and binding.

So, from my experience, most internet accounts of use are... ambitious.

I agree, most are. The gun I use(d) isn't vintage, or rare or special, a Ithaca 100. I don't think 10K, (total, not per year) through any gun over a 25 year span is extraordinary, 400/yr isn't a lot of shooting. Kids don't grow up for free either, money well spent! I can't imagine shooting 10K/year! Shoulder/eye problems anyone?

CZ, where you're shooting must be in high cotton. At my club, members shoot skeet for $6, 5-stand for $6, and wobble trap (scrap) for $6. A 100 bird round of sporting is $25 for a member, and only $35 for non-members. This is a 15 station course with all ProMatic machines and has the ability to count your targets and transfer them to a chip card. Also has a 3 second delay for report pairs and singles, if you want to practice alone. In short, a very well equipped shooting facility. They sell 12 ga. target loads for $65/flat. At the government's travel expense rate of $.54/mile, it costs me as much to drive there and back as it does to shoot a 100 bird round, shells included.

$90 per 100? Mercy!

As to the wear on a gun, I have shot 10K rounds a year, more than once, by actual shell and target count. I've never worn out a double. Closest I have come is a used BSS I bought about 12 years ago. Tight when I bought it, but shot loose about a year ago. A .003" piece of aluminum HVAC tape keeps it tight now. It's digested a good many 3" magnum loads, and lots of lighter ones.

I agree that you can't separate the wear from opening/closing from shooting entirely, but it is my opinion that the opening/closing cycles cause more wear than the firing of light loads, say 1 oz. or less in a 12 ga. There is very little metal to metal movement during recoil ............ but lots in opening/closing.

SRH

No Stan. Just working man's clubs, and two state owned clubs.
I used RST's at $10/bx because I said Vintage doubles.
It runs $5.00/rd for skeet, $38.00/100 FOR CLAYS. add 120 RST's or almost 5bx's(shoot twice at a single if needed) and a soda, brings me to $90.00/rd.
You know, at 1 extra dollar per round, it takes 100 rounds of skeet, to generate an extra 100 bucks. Which doesn't go very far when keeping a club running.

I watch the books at my club pretty closely, and with no paid help and $100.00 annual membership fee, we run no large surpluses.

Might want to consider switching from RST to another manufacturer with 16ga or 20ga payload in 12ga shotshell ie 7/8oz to 1oz at 1100fts to 1200fps. Such shells are available form Fiocchi, Winchester, Remington, Herter's at Cabela's,.....Soon Kent of WV with come to rescule with 3/4oz (original 20ga payload) in 2.5" case 1200fps for about $8 per box.
Just because Model 21 isn't good choice for me doesn't mean it isn't high quality well-made gun of high quality components. Hey if you switch to ole' Winchester 21 you can use them Remi Club loads and really save money on the shells! A guy had one of them two trigger ones in 12ga 28" at last gun show in very good shape for $3600. Man, Perazzi charges about $20,000 for something that looks similar. Talking about expensive!
When one thinks a bit and crunches some number that ole' Winchester kinda becomes affordable. I got a little slogan for you boys....Shoot more for less live happier buy old' Model 21! Good?

Jag, (not that you'd know, of course (How's that Kieth? Hah!)) but Win21's are notorious for pulling the forend loop loose shooting a lot.

It starts with a little wiggle in the forend. It ends at a shop in Tejas.

It would not be a bad idea to ask Keith if there was some super binding substance that could easily fix that problem. I mean ca. 1945 Germans glued on some wings on them Volksjagers and some of them actually flew and landed. Yes there were some losses but I bet we got better glues now.

The model 21 as I recall started life in the early 1930's. To date I cannot recall one feature of the 21 which has been "Un-Prejudically" shown to be of superior design to those "Classics" which began life in the 1800's. In fact many of them are of superior design. What the 21 had going for it strength wise was it made use of more modern steels. My personal view-point is the 21 is of inferior design to many of its predecessor & contemporary doubles but made up for it with stronger steels. My first double was a pre WWI J Stevens Arms & Tool Co gun. It had a "Cigar Box" shaped frame with coil mainspring & cocked very much like a 21. It bolted with a wedge shaped bolt as an extension of the top lever in a plain straight rib extension, thus bolted further from the hinge than a 21 which gave it better leverage. It was a low end grade & to my recollection was neither chopper lumped not mono-blocked. It was still tight & on face. It was steel barreled so at the time not knowing any better I did not hesitate to feed it nay off the shelf ammo, which it took in stride. The only feature of the 21 which makes it so "Valuable" is the Name "Winchester". I seriously doubt the name CSMC will ever achieve the status as that "Big Red W".

Miller, I am just a regular guy that likes to shoot.

Repairs are a fact of life with old guns. New ones too.
You gonna choot, you gonna fix.

The only point I even cock an eyebrow over is when people are lost in some sort of observational parallel universe.

I'm sure there are other points, but when I inspect a 21 I look at the forend lug, and when I look at a Flues, I look at the cocking rod. Doesn't mean there can't be hours of fun with them out on the range.

ClapperZapper's claim that a Model 21 can't withstand ten grand a year is a bit ridiculous. Further comments about forend lugs are just as ridiculous since a loose forend lug has absolutely nothing to do with hinge wear or breech looseness. Some of the posters just don't understand gun mechanics. Others have never seen, shot, or owned a Model 21, Winchester or CSMC.

Hey if you shoot them and the lug pulls loose, it's gotta be repaired. Nothing more to it than that.
There's a beauty of a 20 headed to Texas from my club just recently. Must be just another anomaly.

I agree with CZ, "if you shoot them----it's gotta be repaired." I pound about 4500+ rounds a year through my NIDs I have had a few barrel lugs come loose. My recent failure was a 1927 NID that I had been shooting 35 years. It is at the gunsmith currently being repaired for another 80+ years. I had my heart plumbing "fixed" about 12 years ago. My NIDs and my heart are all repaired and we keep on doing what we were made to do.

The NID is great all around shooter in classic American double gun roundup. I almost ended up with 20ga gun myself. The fit and finish was very good and there was plenty of steel in action, barrels and wood at head of stock to take pounding of modern 2&3/4 lead game shell no problemo. It was adult sized 20ga gun and that is was undoing I'm getting too old to carry extra "20/12 weight". It was very, very solidly made 20ga shotgun with modern dimensions. I will say this gun occupies exact same nitsche as Model 21 at small percentage of asking prices. I guess the Winchester has the name, but they Ithaca wins the saving money game.

Almost doesn't count Jagermeister. But what does count is that you initially told us that you had actually bought this gun when you merely had it on Layaway. Then, as with a number of other guns you told us you bought, you didn't complete the deal. You repeatedly lied to us... even going so far as to tell us how effective the recoil pad was on a Remington 870 pump that you never took possession of.

So why on earth should we believe anything you say when it is apparent that you are simply an internet fake?

Post #476286 3/27/17



I sure hope mentioning that you are a fake and a fraud who doesn't own any doubles doesn't make Gregory have another estrogen attack.

Hey keith!
I believe I'm beginning to understand your special relationship with Jagermeister

Jagermeister posts, you respond. Jagermeister posts, you respond.
Over and over and over again, Jagermeister posts, you respond.
It's Pavlovian!

Jagermeister has succeded in making you his slobbering B!tch.

Keith, found you a nice site to visit and bore them to death with your useless antics.....
TheLIBERALgunclub.com/php883/

Perhaps you can convert some there to your way of thinking?

No worry Joe J. said Winchester 21s will be worth a lot in forseeable future due to demand and having CSMC making new guns in't going to get in a way of that. Ithaca NID is no Model 21 just like Ithaca 37 is no model 12. Our Canadian friend has term for Winchester that and I think it is "Branding" or "Brand Power".

Winchester Akbar.

So let's examine this situation a bit more closely Bob. If I respond to the internet fake Jagermeister, in your puny and mentally deficient mind, that makes me "his slobbering b1tch" But since that really bothers you, and makes you similarly respond to me, doesn't that make you my slobbering b1tch?

It looks like you have succeeded... not "succeded"... in making an even bigger ass of yourself Bob. I still think you did a great job of demonstrating what an IMBECILE you are when you attempted to insult John Roberts by referring to one of his posts as "IMBICYLIC". You should be a real inspiration to Jagermeister Bob. You are living proof that in this country, even a hydrocephalic short-bus window licker can own a Model 21.

Adult males may engage in name calling here on DoubleGunBBS, esp. when cowardly hiding behind internet anonymity. No problem. Adults can take care of themselves.
What is a problem is bringing developmentally disabled children into the insulting. I asked JamesM to refrain from called others "Libtards" by PM and it was not well received. Possibly we could consider for a brief moment before clicking on "Submit" how the parent of a hydrocephalic "retard" might feel. That of course would require something called "empathy".

Apologies , I'm out.

Could not agree more!

This used to be nice gun board. Most knowledgable, most helpful. Now it's devolved into a viper pit. I'll keep checking in. There's still some good here. I remember Russ and Bill Murphy and Bill Wise and Oscar Gaddy Mike Orlen and guys like that. Pretty sad legacy.

It's an open discussion board where we speak our minds. It ain't Sunday school.
JR

I have no doubt that old colonel "Could not agree more" with Drew.

Why? Simply because of the intellectual dishonesty and highly selective disapproval practiced by Drew and old colonel, and several other F.A.G.'s (Fake Ass Gentlemen), along with their penchant for putting words in my mouth that were never said. Note that nobody but Drew even mentioned developmentally disabled children when I returned an insult to Bob Cash. Hydrocephalus is most certainly not limited to developmentally disabled children. Drew should and does know better, just as he knows I did not used the term "retard" which he took the time to disingenuously put in quotes. Dishonesty is not civility.

Not that I care, but where were Drew and old colonel about a week ago when I was the target of blistering personal attacks in a couple threads, which included threats, name calling, and a level of vulgarity and profanity seldom seen here? If I had been the one dropping numerous F-bombs, threats, and name-calling, and the target had been one of their cronies, they both would have been front and center with their pious preaching. They were both predictably silent. And we already heard about Drew's confrontation with James M. over the use of the term "Libtard" in his own little "I'm Done" cry for sympathy thread which was framed around some big dangerous religious/medical mission to Guatemala that turned out to be about a 4 1/2 day long weekend. I hope the little trip was tax deductible.

LIBTARDS is a perfectly descriptive term for the Liberal Left supporters of anti-gun Democrats who work to take away our gun rights. FUDD's is fine too, but really doesn't go far enough to describe the stupidity of those who think that the anti-gunners will leave our doubles alone if we sacrifice AR-15's and other things we personally may not own or care for. I will continue to use both terms, especially now when we have ex-U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens and others calling for a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

John Paul Stevens: Repeal the Second Amendment

And you will continue to hurt our cause. I campaign for hearts and minds of our neighbors how we express things and how we present ourselves is at least as important as what we say.

No, he won't. Just what is "our cause" you speak of? You can't see the obvious when it's staring you in the face, Jager. For you the 2nd Amendment is a completely disposable item "for safety's sake".

And that last sentence is nothing but pure gobbledygook of the first order.
JR

There are threat posed by people behaving badly in general, people behaving badly after natural disasters, man-made disaster and the prospect of people behaving even worse if the economy of the whole country takes a nosedive into "Kansas territory" because of the "trickle-down' crap. The mind boggles that some people think the best idea is to give up ways to protect yourself should things actually go to hell particularly when what they want to give up represents the world's best defense for the vulnerable and underrepresented.

If the Second was repealed, I would no longer have any desire to live in the US. If I must live in a country that doesn't respect the right to keep and bear arms, then I would at least like to live in a country with a universal healthcare.

Jager, there is no constitutional right to firearms in Canada, which has universal healthcare.

Does that universal healthcare come with a free Model 21? Didn’t think so.
Please stay on topic.

Wear (sic) is old colonel when you need him?


_______________________________
Put the (sic) in ‘cause I’m sure someone would miss the joke.
Canada does not want you, Jag.
I hope an American team wins the Stanley Cup.

You don't want to live here anyway. You've already said you are going to be moving out of the USA soon, to another country. Why be so (falsely) patriotic?

SRH

The only nation on Earth who has had a right to bear arms upheld for 200 plus years is the US. Go where you want, there is no other. It is a privilege, a privilege of the very rich in most nations. Here it is still a right of the most humbly born citizen. And say what they may, if that right is taken away how long before free speech is next? Freedom is only free, if someone is willing and able to pay the price.

Jaeger and King are both idiots. I don't know why anyone here cares what a Canadian thinks about American politics. He's not voting for anything in the USA. Jaeger is just here to piss people off. Obviously it's working. He's been baiting people here for years. Hell, I think I even got mad enough to defend him a week or two ago. It's not even worth the time to acknowledge him, and even my stubborn ass can admit that.

Long story short, I love side-by-side shotguns, and am getting sick of wading through the BS to learn more about them. Ignore these jerks and watch them ride away. This is too great of a place to waste. It is the ONLY place of it's kind on the internet machine.

Jager made a comment about living preferences, I replied specifically of conditions in Canada, no opinion of American politics. That would be like bayoneting the wounded, bullying, and the forum has done a good job of marginalizing miscreants in that department.

Just like the USSR. Enough King. Stick to what you know. Doubles.

The spelling was a masterpiece in both these posts. The punctuation could be better.

Please stay on topic.


________________________
Freshman English
https://youtu.be/PpPtfwTtGB4

lonesome, we all know that King doesn't make any political commentary here... ever!

And we also know that King has never once seen even a trace of anti-gun commentary here... ever! He has denied seeing anything of the sort here many times:



Actually, I am shocked that King hasn't once again attempted to portray ex Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens as a Conservative Republican as he has done several time in the past. King has denied his own words countless times here. I don't think that Satan himself could be any more dishonest and deceptive about something. In my opinion, it would take a deep level of dishonesty, or severe mental illness, to deny that the QUOTES which follow are anything but anti-gun, anti-2nd Amendment, or anti-NRA.

I know for a fact that King has seen this one several times which was posted by his fellow anti-gun Troll Ed Good:



Here's a small example of King's devout and unwavering support for anti-gun politicians.



He dishonestly defends Obama by stating that he had "kept his legislative gun in his holster to position his party for '16." even though he knew damn well that Obama had done all he could to advance strict gun controls on law abiding citizens, and had already signed dozens of anti-gun Executive orders. King has voiced similar support for Ted Kennedy, George Soros, Bill Clinton, and a host of other anti-gunners. If any of us voiced similar support for KKK leader David Duke, King would pounce upon us and label us a racists. But he wants us to believe his unbridled support for anti-gunners in no way makes him anti-gun. Wow!

Here's a couple where King is selling gun control as a good thing, and criticizing the U.S. for not doing more to restrict guns:










And here's King using the exact same anti-gun propaganda as Handgun Control Inc. where he attemts to portray juvenile gangbangers and criminals as children:



King has repeatedly lied and provided false statistics to support his anti-2nd Amendment position. He has totally misrepresented the views of Constitutional scholar Marc Levin about his views on the 2nd Amendment. He has repeatedly flamed and criticized the NRA and Wayne LaPierre, and numerous times suggested returning to the same concessionary stance that led us to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

In spite of all this, and so much more anti-gun rhetoric from King, and Ed, and a few other anti-gunners, King can sincerely look us in the eye and say this:



When lies and dishonesty become as reflexive and second nature as breathing, you'll have that.

It will be interesting to see who will prove more anti-gun our current Great Leader or Barack Hussain Obama. We will see.

Situation at this time is very, very bad I had to extended NRA membership no magazine, no gift back required.

Thank you. I'm sure they will not sweep up SxS breechloaders in the first wave. Well, there is always "English 12G sidexside percussion unknown maker?". Guess you can say it's older than Diane and Bernie combined and Joe Biden said two are ok, no worries.

Rudeness, bullying, serial self-abasement on keith's part, have been part of the forum, now considerably less, but I stand by not seeing evidence of anti-gunners here. The notion anti-gunners are those not thinking as keith is absurd.

I'll say this about jager: I'm as curious as others about his personal circumstances but for the way he's insulted he acts with praiseworthy decorum, an example for all of us. No one's perfect; we're all different.

The idiot FUDDS just don't get it. The anti gun forces are after ALL FIREARMS. It's called incrementalism. Despite the left freaking out about police brutality on a regular basis, they won't be happy until the only people able to defend themselves are agents of the government. They want all the guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKPObRSU5w4

He doesn't act with praiseworthy decorum King. You misunderstand his behavior. He purposely trolls, inciting responses. He adds NOTHING to a double gun conversation.

And my response to the first part of your post is the same as to JM, although somewhat more polite. Keith sees anti gunners here because supporting gun control is supporting the eventual confiscation of all guns in private hands. Based on the evidence, there is no reason to believe they will ever be satisfied until all guns are in government hands.

And where is the outrage about decorum being directed at JBRooster for his emphatic and repeated "F$CK YOU" to Keith, echoing Bob Cash's post of the same. JB, with 20 posts here, wants to add to the conversation with that????

Jager, I like you for your manners and your posts have been informative to me. We're trying to keep politics off the forum and overall we're doing a good job. At no time has there been less political comment and more tumultuous goings-on about gun control. That's remarkable constraint and I hope others want to keep it that way.

Keeping politics off the forum might encourage the decorum here, but just the same this is a gun forum. If we ignore the politics which control our American right to bear arms we may well lose that right. We need the political discussion and we'd be fools to fail to voice our 2nd amendment support. Contributions to the NRA political victory fund are likely our best bet to protect our constitutional right. The anti's know the power of the NRA; that is why their hatred of the organization is so vocal...Geo

King,since you are on our side, why not follow JM's lead and make a NRA donation yourself?

George...what an excellent post. Polite, and yet on point. Thank you.

I've done better than an NRA donation, Geo. NRA is one of best-funded lobbies in North America. As I do with all institutions I care about, socially and politically, I criticize and encourage according to need. You've forgotten my correspondence with NRA of how we thwarted antis in Canada, which was posted here, in the same way I've brought my opinions to the three political parties here on the issue. Little acts of faithfulness are more important in the long run than sending off a check/cheque. (I have contributed financially to American foundations i.e. wounded warriors, because of a shared interest with a deceased member here.)

Informed, positive and constructive criticism of our institutions is indeed an important part of supporting them. I won't disagree with you there. I still don't forget much and I certainly remember your criticism of Wayne LaPierre with respect to his advice to government about a good man with a gun. Donations are strictly a personal thing...Geo

It was an epic drive. Unfortunately it was in the wrong fairway.

Please stay on topic.


__________________________
The hopes of a nation rest on two cities, Toronto and Winnipeg.
Bwaaaaaaaahhh!
(Worked hockey and golf in. Awesome.)

There are a few things a lot of people need to keep in mind. Our Constitution does not say one word about the "Right" to hunt or bust clay targets. It says a "Well Regulated Militia" being necessary for the freedom of the country it gives;

"The People" the right to "KEEP & BEAR" arms.

We actually have a constitutional "RIGHT" to own & bear an AR-15, but not necessarily a Purdey or Parker. When the part which the constitution protects is done away with, we have not a snowballs chance in H**L on the others, all the Anti's want is a foot in the door, the rest will follow.

To say there has never been any "ANTI" posts on this forum is either Total Ignorance or an Outright LIE, my take is that it is most likely the later.

The People are the same ones as in all other parts of the constitution, they are NOT the Army or the National Guard or Reservists, they are the private Citizens. Freedom of speech does not grant the Government the right to publish our Newspapers.

There is a vast difference in a Citizen & a Subject. Our constitution was set up that the people should be Citizens, not Subjects. It was intended our "Government" should be a subject of the People, not the other way around. In spite of his Infamous statement at Gettysburg "That Government Of the People, For the People & By the People" should not perish from the land ole Lying Lincoln set the Ball in Motion to take control from the People & put in in the hands of the Central Government. We've been going Downhill Ever since.

The gun control movement is making real progress this time. The camel's nose is well under the tent flap.

We should all express our support by selling a Winchester Model 21 and making a donation to the NRA political victory fund...Geo

See, I'm back on topic!

______________________

It is quite understandable that King says he likes Jagermeister for his fake manners and dishonesty, since fake manners and dishonesty has been King's stock in trade here for many years.

I really got a kick out of King's dishonest rejection of Geo's suggestion that he make a monetary donation to the NRA. King says his contribution to the NRA had been stated here. That was a lie. King told us many times that he wrote to the NRA with his own ideas about countering gun control. But King would never tell us exactly what he suggested to them, despite my asking him many times to share with us what he wrote to them. However, it is safe to say that King had suggested the same kinds of whipped puppy responses such as giving up semi-autos and large capacity magazines and Universal Background Checks that he had suggested here on numerous occasions. King's ideas were to make concessions to Obama and Co., and then try to gain back some of what we gave up later. Thankfully, the NRA did not even respond to King, let alone take his idiotic advice.





King would no sooner help the NRA than he would endorse Donald Trump for re-election. King is here to undermine us and LULL people into thinking there is no threat from the Liberal Left Democrats to our gun rights. King and Jagermeister are two trolls who do all they can to subvert any discussions that might actually inform guys about the very real threats we face.

I don't care about the F-bombs that I got from JBRooster last week. He knows who the real trolls are now. I wouldn't expect anything but F-bombs and insults from Bob Cash, and certainly wouldn't expect any of our Fake Ass Gentlemen (F.A.G.s) or Manners Police to utter a peep of protest about it either. I actually love it when they show their hand... and their hypocrisy. We don't need people like this on our side or in some Big Tent. Embracing guys like King is about as intelligent as injecting your own liver with cancerous cells. They are the enemy within, and no one should be fooled by any fake manners or attempts to suppress repetition of their anti-gun rhetoric.



And for King to actually read his own anti-gun words... and those from his friend Ed Good suggesting that we disarm... and still say he sees no evidence of anti-gun sentiment here, shows exactly how dishonest he really is. It takes a real honest-to-God pathological liar to see Ed Good saying in writing that we should disarm, and make the statement he did above.

There are anti gunners posting here and their comments have nothing to do with disagreeing with another poster. Their anti gun comments are independently posted, not neccesarily in contrast to the comments of another poster.

Whoa, miller, it didn't happen that way. When the founding fathers set things to writing the common people explicitly weren't to be part of it. Hamilton railed against the democratic spirit unleashed by the Revolution. "The mass of people seldom judge or determine right," he told the Constitutional Convention, even advocated a Senate and president serving for life modelled on the British monarchy and House of Lords.

He was ignored although the Constitution strengthened federal authority and forbade interference with the states in collecting debts and violating property rights in general (including slavery which expanded dramatically after independence). By and for the people evolved over time, as the Second---but let's not get into that! Hamilton was later instrumental in gaining support for the Constitution.

The Civil War rid the US of slavery, not the logic of liberty. By and for the people wasn't around Lying Lincoln, as you say, any more than it was around Hilary Clinton when she paid $1.2 billion to run the country her way. .

Woe, King!

You have an extra period at the end of your post.

And you were getting so good with the punctuation. Spelling is still impeccable.


___________________________
Aaron Burr!

Naturally, King Brown does not wish to get into the Original Intent or the adoption of the 2nd Amendment, because he is still in denial about it, and he continues to lie and say that the Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a relatively recent invention of the NRA.

It bears repeating once again because King is frequently in denial of his own words:









Even when King Brown has been repeatedly shown proof of the Framers Original Intent of the Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms from their writings, correspondence, The Federalist Papers, etc., King has always rejected the truth and has advanced the silly Liberal Left idea of an ever evolving "living document" that has as much meaning and permanence as a piece of toilet paper. As for the rest of King's idiotic blather, the Constitution was debated and discussed for quite some time before ratification and signing. There were a multitude of opinions that did not make the final cut, as much as King would like us to think otherwise.

And so much... once again... for the King of Dishonesty and his vow to refrain from political discussion here.

What a Poster Child for the meaning of complete fraud! Dishonesty is not civility. And lies about the 2nd Amendment on a Firearms forum are not mannerly. But you won't hear any complaints from his pen pal from Topeka.

I love this one. What a lovely rhetorical question!

Because without biased, stacked interventionist and activist courts overriding the democratic process as exemplified by the will of the people through the US Congress and the Executive branch, as well as our Parliamentary system, the Liberal agenda would have been dead in the water for the last 60 years, if not longer.

Funny, although predictable, how the one time the court rules against the leftist agenda it's thwarting the democratic process.

My 80 year old father and I have been members of the NRA for many years. But, until now I have never made an extra donation to the Political Victory Fund. I just made a sizable one. Why now? Because I have a 21 year old son and our 2nd Amendment rights are under attack like never before. The NRA is our best hope of ensuring that my son is able to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights when he is my dad's age.

James, makes no difference to me which side one or the other is on of the Second, I doubt anyone here has doubt of it being an enduring debate. That's a historical fact and proof is how thousands of jurisdictions see it as they please all over the country and regulate accordingly.

The Supreme Court is activist---biased and stacked, depending on one's opinions---but they are comprised of jurists chosen by political parties representing majorities of the time. Members tremble of calamitous consequences if their parties don't get the judge of their choosing.

The answer to the rhetorical question, of course, is that we get stacked courts in a democratic process because it's the nature of the system.

It is not accurate to say that the entire Supreme Court is activist, biased and stacked. Some of the Justices actually try to apply the law. Some of them bend the law to suit their particular political views.

King, regardless of who appoints them some justices apply the law and some justices feel they should make law.

I don’t have much good to say about those who feel they should be making law. Sadly the SCC has been loaded with them. And far too many on the USSC

What King Brown always neglects to tell us when he repeats his tired and dishonest old bullshit about the 2nd Amendment being the subject of enduring debate is this:

Whenever and wherever there are infringements or attempts to infringe upon the Constitutional Gun Rights of law abiding citizens, it is directly traceable to the Liberal Left. In this country, this is almost entirely the Liberal Left Democrats that King supports and defends.

If any Judges on the Supreme Court are activist, and makes law rather than interprets whether the law is in accordance with the Constitution, then that simply means the Justices guilty of that behavior have violated their oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Unfortunately, many Justices flat out lie during their confirmation hearings. But dishonest people like King are fine with lying and liars so long as it helps to advance their agenda. This is not just my opinion... King has actually admitted as much on several occasions. This is from his post #389019 on 1/2/2015:



I've said it before, and it bears repeating again. You simply cannot debate or have a civil discussion with a liar. And when someone is so entrenched in their lies as to deny their own words, and to deny that black is black or white is white, only mental illness or pure evil can explain it.

You are so right Keith. I for one have grown so weary of King’s constant bullshit, his untiring attempts here to undermine our American Constitutional rights, especially that of the 2nd Amendment. And, to be honest, most of the time now, I skip over his flowery and nonsensical posts, but I know he still entraps others here who don’t really know his socialist agenda like those of us who have been here for awhile. So, I’m glad to be reminded of what King really represents because the kind, old, grandfatherly facade has fooled me in the past. Thank you. Long live the 2nd Amendment!

Believe what you want to believe. Read your history. My observations are based on history of the issue. Positions changed about the Second, by jurists themselves, even the NRA. That's why there's a debate. Mentioning facts doesn't make me a liar. As posted above, to give a little nudge: " It's absurd for the educated in the 21st century to believe one ideology fits all, and pure fantasy to say that one is purer, more virtuous than the others as fundamentalists everywhere do."

Based on 1994 goals they want control, money and accountability. If one had above certain number of guns and or ammo/reloading supplies 'Arsenal License' was proposed with substantial fee, fingerprinting, local zoning approval for storage, and at least $100,000 in liability insurance all subject to warrantless inspections. While the Second Amendment will not be repealed I would say with current trends and looking toward the future there is much to worry about.

If you study American History you will find the "Militia" was made up of "The People", it was not a standing Army or even the National Guards as we know them today. There was of course a faction who desired Strong Central Government control, They Lost, to those who desired to have a government "Of, By & For" the people with the Federal Government their servant. Lincoln of course did not establish this thought. He recognised it as being in existence when he stated "It Should Not Perish From the Land". When he did everything within his power to take the Government from the "People" & put it into the hands of the /Central Government it doesn't really take a truly intelligent to realize he was lying through his teeth with that Address which has gone down in History. Even a Fool can understand that, You understand don't you King.

Incidentally the Confederacy did not start "The War", they simply tried to peacefully sever their relations with the Union & remove themselves from it. Lincoln Started the War.

I'm not sure I would call it a debate King. As a matter of fact I'm sure it's not a debate.

What it appears to me to be is an attack on property rights by those who feel we should not be allowed to own and use firearms. It is a constant, never ending, never satisfied attack. Those who own guns aren't motivated to debate the issue....only to defend themselves.

The attack is perpetrated by those with extreme views and for fodder, they use the complicit media and low information voters. They lie about and manipulate data. They appeal to emotion with exaggerated pathos. And they ignore the real root causes (which on other subjects dear to their hearts they are so interested in...."poor johnny had no choice to be a car jacking violent meth head.....white privilege and parental drug abuse made him what he is") of mental illness, side effects of prescription drugs, bullying and ostracism and simply pure evil.

At the same time, they ignore easily taken steps that infringe on no law abiding individual's rights that could save tens of thousands of lives.

yup, this shit's political, it's no debate...it's a war....and you are on the wrong side to be regularly posting on this site.

On the other hand, I hope you stay and continue posting. Keep you friends close and your enemies closer.

Now, to stay on topic, I've never liked M21's. IMHO They are ugly and their vaunted strength is a (back to my marketing background) feature with no real benefit that sets it apart. It's the product, however, of fantastic marketing. And for that, I have nothing but admiration.

Thank god we live in a country where politics doesn't infringe on friendship, James, and that goes for so many of my American friends on the board and similarly among ALL members from overseas. Insults only diminish messages.

If you're going to thank Him, please refer to Him as God, not god .............big diff.

SRH

I understand your message, and admire you for its sincerity. I have a strong spiritual life and usually refer to The Great Spirit to accommodate my ecumenism, a distinguishing mark of my family for generations. I try to follow Jesus and the Commandments.

My mother was a Baptist and Anglican father sang professionally at 11 at Toronto's biggest Catholic and Protestant churches, later converted to Catholicism. My grandmother was a British Israelite and grandfather assistant to General Booth and Salvation Army in London, and music director for Gipsy Smith, the Billy Graham of the day.

The amazing amalgam of all it to me is a striving for tolerance, an injunction of Him and Jesus.

Most of us around here are intolerant of socialists and socialism. This is just more of your bologna, King. Give us a break from your socialistic agenda.

Mentioning facts wouldn't make King Brown a liar. But distorting facts and posting falsehoods does. The NRA did not at one time believe there was no Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I challenge the liar from Nova Scotia to show us where and when they did. They evolved over time, especially in the 1960's and 1970's from an organization devoted mainly to civilian marksmanship to one that primarily defends the 2nd Amendment in response to attacks, erosion, and infringements upon our gun right by the Liberal Left anti-gun Democrats.

The jurists who have sided with infringements upon gun rights were not on the Supreme Court majority, and thus were not the ultimate arbiters. The meaning and original intent Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms was not adjudicated in the U.S. Supreme Court until 2008 in two landmark decisions. These are the Heller and McDonald decisions that King continues to deny and lie about. But that Original Intent has been demonstrated to pre-date the ratification of the Constitution, and it most certainly is not a recent invention of the NRA or John Ashcroft as King Brown has said many times in the past. We've already discussed judges who violate their oath by legislating from the bench. There were also judges in this country's past who upheld slavery, segregation, and suppression of voting rights for women and minorities. King Brown would be outraged if we even suggested that those things are subject to interpretation and change simply because they were debated in the past.

Last, but not least... when you can post dozens of anti-gun statements and also read crap like this from your friend Ed Good:



...and then say this:




...then you are a liar. My opinion is based upon clear and simple facts and your own words. To even attempt denial of the fact shows that you are also mentally ill, and certainly here to undermine our Constitutional 2nd Amendment Rights.

Figured there’d be a Buddhist or Muslim in there somewhere, King.


___________________________
Englewood jack! Jules Winnfield
https://youtu.be/TKOBqH8pQaQ

It's Good Friday King. Why don't you tell us that charming story where you claim that your Father converted to Catholicism without belief in the resurrection of Jesus, and that the Jesuit Priests who converted him didn't believe in the resurrection either? After that, perhaps you could finally show us where I ever once disrespected your father. That was another of the many lies you've told here that I haven't forgotten.

I didn't believe that conversion to Catholicism story when you told it the first time, and I still don't believe it now. I don't think you were able to accept your Dad's conversion to Catholicism any more than you are able to accept our 2nd Amendment Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

I have also noticed that you never capitalize the "G" in God, but you always remember to hit the Caps key when you refer to Mohammed or the Prophet of Islam. I'll bet you'll be careful to use the capital "G" now, because it is so important to try to deceive people, isn't it?

keith, for accuracy's sake, the higher clergy were of The Antigonish Movement, not the Jesuits whom my father also admired. It doesn't matter what you believe. It happened exactly the way I earlier described his conversion. Dishonour is saying it's a lie.

Nursing him alone 24/7, I was with him all the way. Doctrine didn't matter as much as his being a young Communist as were many others looking for something better than capitalism during the Depression. The Church finessed it by saying Dad was head of his times.

The reason for the consanguinity of my spirituality, and using another expression for deity, is in my post above to Stan. I would appreciate more respect from you toward my father's conversion.

As for accepting the Second one way or another, to me it's simply an interesting controversy saturating US public life although I remind true believers from time it's not as cut-and-dried as they see it. Nothing ever is.

Actually it is cut-and-dried. The US Supreme Court is the ultimate decision maker regarding the Constitution. It has been so since Marbury vs. Madison. The Constitution recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Full stop.

You are correct, Mr. Gollini: millions of Americans believe that's the case. Other millions and myriads of jurisdiction often think differently, Vermont only today introduced a bill to strengthen gun control, older age, large magazines etc. Historically rare for legislation not to change over couple hundred years.

I told my centerman once that the play should be an amalgam of deeks and passes with a consanguinity (anyone else look that up?) of spatiality in the neutral zone and he cross checked me in the teeth.


_________________________
The Brightmoor bop. Consanguineous to the Englewood jack.
https://youtu.be/skdE0KAFCEA

The US constitution was set up so it could be changed "Only" by being amended. Those trying to destroy the 2nd amendment are well aware of this. They aso realise that at the present time they stand no chance of getting an amendment passed. Therefore they are trying through deceit (Out-Right Lies) to convince the "People" the constitution does not protect this right.

I said it before but will say it again. It truly takes a person who is totally Ignorant or an outright Liar to misunderstand the 2nd amendment. Unfortunately the Outright Liars are convincing many of the Totally Ignorant they do not have this constitutional right. I do truly believe King, there is little doubt as to where you stand on this issue, but do realize WE are in the US, not Canada, it truly is none of your business either way. I am not trying to tell you who to vote for or what to take stands on in Canada, for my part you can Butt Out of our politics we've had enough of your Lies.

Of the same fiery emotional temperament as your centre, both skating like Howie Meeker, you found some space and there's Bobby Orr to put you on your ass. Don't cry, it's a great story for your kids.

It would be an honor for Bobby to put me on my ass.

My luck I’d have Sid Crosby spear me in the nuts.


__________________________
25 years and counting. Keep your head up.

Sorry you see it that way, Miller. I understand what both sides of the controversy believe. Division is common in all human activity, churches, within political parties, service clubs etc, all part of the human condition.

I am neither liar or ignorant. It would be instructive if you show this board, where you've made the accusations that I lied---which is something I've said knowing it not to be true. Something you don't agree with isn't always a lie.

Canadians can't butt out of US politics because we're joined at the hip economically, socially and militarily with your country. We're the major market for 38 states, enmeshed with your military, accommodating your culture.

You've as much right to be growly about your national affairs---and ours---as
I have to make observations about yours. Common decency and plain-old neighbourliness does not permit me to say shut your mouth.

That human condition is the crying shame here. It is due to only one thing & it is that some would rather believe a lie than the truth.
There is only ever one other like Peter said & that other is the opposite.
Truth - lies
Light - dark
Righteousness - corruption
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Now that is pretty black & white for a statement.
Who said that ?
Same fella who said "you are either for me or against me"
This actually gives us no wriggle room to argue.
One is right & the other is left.
Not just a little bit pregnant.
O.M

I can see Mr. Brown that I am wasting my time with you. You simply refuse to accept facts. You are like those tax protestors who claim that the income tax is unconstitutional. Despite numerous Supreme Court cases to the contrary, they just won't accept it. Oh, they have lots of convoluted arguments. Doesn't change the reality.

In the American system, the only Court that really counts when it comes to ruling on the Constitution is the Supreme Court. That millions of individuals and some other jurisdictions think the Supreme Court ruled wrongly is really not relevant.

I expect some states will introduce new laws in the wake of the recent schools shootings. Some of them, if not all, will be challenged in court. If there is federal jurisdiction, those cases will first be ruled on at the District Court level and then at the Circuit Court level. And then the Supreme Court will either grant cert. and rule on some of those cases or they won't. While that is all happening, the rulings in McDonald and Heller remain the law of the land. That you and other liberals wish it were otherwise does not make it so.

For all that, could it be that it's not a left-right, conservative-liberal issue? Constitutions and Amendments seem as dependant on the practise, the spirit and temperament of citizens as much as the rule.

Two state governors in gun-friendly Vermont and Florida, both Republicans with NRA support way up in the 90s, are legislating today on gun control: ages, background checks, bump stocks, seizing firearms where domestic violence.

As the Republican president has said, enough is enough, the violence has got to stop. As you say, it comes down to jurisdictions where the Supreme Court and others will rule on the law, the Second interpreted one way or another.

That Florida and Vermont governors have changed their positions because of state and national blowback should not make them liberals. They're responding to their citizens, conservative and liberal. Agree?

Canada has a federal gun law.

Politicians are concerned primarily with getting re-elected. Too many of them just blow with the wind. They are responding to a loud minority of the population who are exploiting a tragedy to advance their political aims.

Increasing the age, more background checks, outlawing bump stocks, etc. will have little effect on shootings. Criminals, by definition, do not worry about complying with such things. The city of Chicago has very restrictive gun laws yet it still have a high rate of shootings.

Who is responsible for the most recent shooting? Not the NRA. It is the shooter himself. The various law enforcement agencies who had the chance to do something about the shooter, but didn't, also bear some responsibility. Why aren't we hearing anything more about the Sheriff of Broward County and the failures of his department? Could it be that he is a prominent Democrat, as are most of the main stream media in the US?

A guy running for sheriff in a county in North Carolina made a "joke" the other day about being willing to kill people in order to confiscate their guns. That is where we are headed if the left gets its way.

Yes, fact that there was laughter heard from the crowd after the remark was made is deeply disturbing.

Wonder if he’s willing to die?


____________________________
I like my odds if “The Purge” ever comes down.

I see you weren't able to refute your latest lie about the NRA changing it's position over time concerning the meaning of the 2nd Amendment, King. The NRA had to change priorities in response to anti-gunners like you, but they never believed that the right to keep and bear arms was limited to some defunct militia.

Miller was absolutely right to call you a liar and to admonish you for continuing to preach your false dogma here in your eternal quest to advance your false narrative, which you call opinion. And your lie about never seeing any anti-gun sentiment here is evident to all but the most sociopathic mentally ill.

But you still maintain that you do not lie. Amazing!

I may have erred by confusing the Catholic clerics who converted your father by referring to them as Jesuits rather than members of the Antigonish movement. But I am still throwing the bullshit flag on your contention that they baptized him knowing he did not believe in the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection is the one and only, most basic tenet of Catholicism and Christianity. You are suggesting he joined up to worship a mere mortal and an imposter who lied about being God's son. Then you compounded that bullshit by telling us that those Priests don't believe it either, and another group of Catholic Priests you met here in the States also told you in unison that they also do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

And you accuse me of dishonoring him. You take deception to levels that most of us find inconceivable. I've caught you in too many lies to fall for this unadulterated bullshit.

Never forget the right to keep & bear arms is not dependant on the 2nd amendment. In fact the writer of the "Bill of Rights" was opposed to them. He felt that by adding them to the constitution wold lead later to people thinking if anything was not included in these rights they would automatically be assumed to Not be a Right. Noe people are even trying to claim those things mentioned in the Bill of Rights are Not Binding. The constitution itself, minus the Bill of Rights does not give the authority to disarm the People.thus it was already unconstitutional.

There is no problem in finding the history of the NRA, just do a search on it. It was founded for the sole purpose of encouraging Civilian Marksmanship. It was founded during the term of U S Grant as President of the USA. It was in fact founded by several retired Union Officers who had served under Grant. These men realized that even though they outnumbered, were better fed, better equipped, & better armed it took 4 long hard years of fighting with the cost of many lives to subdue us Pore Rebels. They recognized that in spite of all the advantages they held they had simply been Out Shot & out fought. They accredited this to the fact that Southerners were for the most part more familiar with handling & firing guns on a regular basis. The NRA was formed to Correct this fault. As Keith stated they did not truly become involved in the political side until after passage of the '68 Gun Control act. This in fact was when I became a life member.

In spite of their "Yankee" Background they have very strong support throughout the South today, in spite of alienating many members 2-3 years ago. They did this by refusing the Sons of Confederate Veterans their desire to place an Ad in the Rifleman magazine. It was extremely hard for me to Swallow that they would take this stand. The SCV is "Not" a hate organization nor do we condone "Slavery". We abhor the fact that the "Flag" has been misused in the committing of some crimes, but one also has to remember the US flag has been likewise abused. In fact I believe the US flag was present at the Crime of trying to destroy an abortion clinic in Atlanta GA. I am personally opposed to all the "Murder" of innocent Children but this was not the proper solution. These have accounted for many more lives lost than all the mass shootings or any other firearms deaths. Yet the same politicians & courts who are now trying to strip us of our constitution rights have "Added" this as a Right. Nothing in our Constitution give one the right to Murder another & the unborn has "life".

People simply need to get their heads on straight. I will not get into Religion here, but there is simply two choices, one simply Obeys God or doesn't.

God will be the "JUDGE" of this, it is in no Human Hands & will be "Just".

God judging or not---faith is believing in absence of evidence---I believe being "good" to get to paradise as a reward will leave me where I am.

Similarly with NRA---and resurrection celebrations tomorrow---it's important to reflect on ever-present change and consequences of schisms in the great Abrahamaic religions.

Protestants and Catholics and Jews, Bible and Talmud and Torah, strive toward and teach love while theologians note scripture and doctrine accommodates things that could not have happened.

We speak of Abraham the father and Moses the teacher while distinguished theologians say there's no evidence that either existed. It shouldn't matter because Jesus and other great religious leaders preached universal love.

On those grounds my father, a rescuer of Jews in Russia during the cold war who lived an exemplary life promoting ecumenism, with trees growing in his name in Israel, was accepted into a Catholic community preaching ecumenism.

Yes, Miller, let God judge me, my father and his Catholic arbiters, not a boorish man in Pennsylvania.

Just send me to Hell or Nova Scotia. It’d be about the same to me.

Not a 100% sure but I think it’s ‘boarish’.


_________________________
Anyway, when they start taking about the fires in Hell, I get spooked.
Tom T. Hall
https://youtu.be/GAwlj9wqFnI

Boarish covers it, either way. And right again on Nova Scotia, hellish fine for hunting and fishing and hockey if so inclined. My grandsons played street-hockey with Sid, five on one "and he always won."

What patriot does not love hockey?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaBW4bjdefY

If Sid ever came to the Soo and played with my brothers, cousins and me he’d be traveling back to Cole Harbour on a stretcher. Sure hope he didn’t spear your grandkids in their privates.


_______________________
I thought you were Marchy. P.K. Suban

After he cross checked a Boston Bruin in the head and said Bruin told him not to do that.

Marchy is Brad Marchand, another dirty Nova Scotian.

Some of the great ones needed protectors, diminishing attack by 20 per cent. Others like Gordie and Sid used elbows and stick to attack 100 per cent to win successive Stanley Cups. Rough game, eh?

One cannot believe in Jesus without believing in the existence of Abraham & Moses for he speaks of both of them. While true we have not "Seen" God or Jesus Evidence of their existence is astronomical. Those of us who Believe are not taking a Giant Leap in the Dark. The Biblical Scriptures have stood up against all detractors throughout the ages & will continue to do so. Jesus Said "If You Love Me, You Will Keep My Commandments". There is a lot more involved than "Universal Love". The Bible from Genesis through The Revelation is centered around the coming of the Messiah, IE Jesus our Savior. Throughout all those ages Obedience to God's Word has been an absolute Necessity. Mankind did not get a Free ticket by the Crucifiction of Jesus on the Cross.

"IF" I were the Judge I would likely be swayed by personal feelings, God will not, his Judgement will be Just & will be in accordance to obedience to what he has spoken & revealed to us. Take this for whatever its worth to you.

As to the constitution it was written so that it could only be changed by the proper procedure of Amendments. The US is not a "Democracy", it is a "Republic" . "I Pledge to the Flag of the United States of America & to the ""Republic"" for which it Stands". Sound familiar. It was set up on Democratic principles, but is not a true Democracy. If it were then a simple majority vote could change the entire constitution but that is not the case, fortunately. Our foreFathers had better vision than that. It was of course based on their past experiences.

I'm not judging your father King. I never questioned his motives for converting to Catholicism as an adult. However, I will never believe your bullshit story claiming that he converted to Catholicism without belief in the resurrection. Are you really telling us he would go to all that trouble to worship some fraud who claimed to be the son of God, and who lied about the existence of Moses and Abraham?

I also do not believe your bullshit story about the Catholic clerics who supposedly baptized him after he answered their questions about belief in the resurrection by saying he did not believe in it. I do not believe for a second that those same Catholic Clerics also admitted that they do not believe in the resurrection either, and that they went on to baptize your father because "he was ahead of his time" for supposedly not believing in that which the entire foundation the Church and all of Christianity is built upon. Nor did I believe your later bullshit story about another group of Catholic clerics who allegedly told you in unison "None of us believe in it either."

I asked you then for the names of some of those Catholic Clerics who do not believe in the most fundamental tenet of the Church. You couldn't offer a shred of proof, any more than you could give us any proof of your lie about the NRA changing their opinion of the meaning and original intent of the 2nd Amendment. And that statement of yours affirming once again that you never saw any anti-gun sentiment here in 15 years of almost daily visits... even after being spoon-fed absolutely anti-gun quotes from you and your friend Ed Good... that tells us all we need to know about your truthfulness and veracity. Do you really think you've convinced Miller or anyone else?

Better change the subject to hockey King.

By the way, I see you capitalized the "G" in God this time. That must have nearly killed you.

That’s a Bingo! How fun!

Is that how you say it?


__________________________
You just say Bingo.

I have no quarrel with those who believe or don't, the injunction to love each other is primal of all faiths. I believe in Jesus. I don't as many others believe in six-day creation, burning bushes, infallibility of a pope etc. It's easy to accept what you believe because it encompasses the command to love each other.

Democracy whole different thing. I'm pickier there. For all the Constitution says, I was in Oxford when it took America's finest of the 82nd and 101st, mostly blacks, to enforce constitutional equality promises; two killed---one a colleague---300 injured to enrol a black air force veteran at Ole Miss.

Your and my country are still a long way from living to the high standards of our constitutions and bills of rights because majorities making the rules aren't ready to cede to deserving minorities, constitutions be damned. Why should the rights of minorities have to be put to a vote anyway?

Wouldn't it be better to have the rights of a minority upheld with the express consent of the majority rather than, take your pick: a ruling of a stacked, biased, activist Supreme Court which many members here claim? Constitutions work when they have consent of citizens. I don't see much of it.

Well, that was disappointing. Not even a passing mention of the Nova Scotian nut spearer.

Why don’t youz guys don your ‘gay apparel’ and head over to shooting sportsman bbs. They have a political section there. This is a golf and hockey bbs with the occasional double gun thread.


__________________________
Azalea. 13
(The Masters)

Him, God, The Great Spirit is all the same to me out of respect for all faiths, as I explained to Stan. As for the other, your posts are the most conspicuous self-abasement I've read on a website. Fill your boots. You don't realize your serial negativity and bombast makes you appear as a tiresome little man.

Mostly a response to Miller's thoughtful post, lonesome. And I agreed with Sid as spearer previously.

Everything is politics, impossible to escape. All of us err in this respect although I believe people often get closer when they engage honestly on issues.

Impossible, of course, with the fragmented, polarized, confrontational and conflict of US public discourse today. Crazy to put your head in it.

I believe honestly asserted exchanges of opinions on values and history with members is separate from the partisan stuff which offers nothing to anyone.

We can get closer by being touchy feely, rather than honest, can't we?

It pains me to read that Canada is facing more gun control due to a spike in gun violence. Reuters reports that in a few short years gun crimes are up 30%, and gun homicides are up by two thirds. I for one am thankful it's just a hobby for you folks so there's none of the terrible problems that the US faces, eh? And now we learn that Nova Scotia has invented a new form of math known as afrocentric, I suppose because the old math was racist. Chaos-n-fragmented, or?

You don't realize that your serial bullshit and lies, which you will not and cannot back up, make you appear as a dishonest old fool who will say anything and go to any length to run away from the obvious. My boots are not filling because I am one here who refuses to step in your steaming piles of bullshit and dishonesty.



To answer this totally off-topic and political question... even though you are unable to answer my questions or address your obvious lies... and using the same logic you apply to our 2nd Amendment... because they are the subject of an enduring debate.

That's the second time you've used the term self-abasement. I'm glad to see that even at your age, you can still learn new words to try to impress folks with. Now don't you think it's time you learned what it means? Then perhaps you can stop your self-abasement. Nobody believes your bullshit King. More lies, more pretending you won't talk politics here, and more changing the subject to the rights of minorities or hockey isn't going to change that.

[/quote]

Being a minority could be awful. I heard rumors about what is happening in the Republic of South Africa. If true EU has at least a moral obligation to put pressure on the government there to protect all their citizens there or better yet take the minority back into the EU. Sadly the "Golden Lass of EU" isn't going to intervene.

Sorry king, wrong again. You cannot just believe as you wish by your own justification of events as they fit your comprehension.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words.

So if you don't believe six day creation EXACTLY as it is written in Genesis (firmament above & everything else) & every burning bush or golden calf, stone tablet, water from the rock that Moses wrote about, then how can you possibly believe in the teachings of Jesus, in His own words. The pope is another matter.

You might believe that historically He was a man who walked upon the Earth, but not who He is.
O.M

More than a man who walked the earth, Mr. Moses, a great teacher and striver for justice for all mankind who commanded that we love each other. I've struggled with my spirituality for a long time, since around 12 years old. There was so much in scripture that just didn't seem right, the creation story, Jonah in belly of a whale, eye for an eye etc. I wondered if God/The Great Spirit would give me a pass if I followed the Golden Rule and the Commandments.

I've asked my religious friends for guidance and they say the Bible is as confusing to others as it is to me. Once I was in a car driven by the diocesan vicar-general, an economist and friend. I told him that I got out the books about God during a 10-day illness. "Y'know, Father," I said, "it's really quite simple and you guys make it difficult." He replied, "Yes, it is and yes we do." I can't say I believe everything if I don't so I'll just do as I've been doing and keep hoping.

Thanks for your advice.

Man, Talk about an abuse of this web site! This has to be one of the classic.

Walter, agree with you. Couldn't believe the numbers. I'm complicit. Practically, the thread had run out on 21s but then posts started flying with other interests and questions and it became a party after the publican called time.

I wouldn't take a 21 if offered to me. It's a club compared to so many American classics, way over-built. What's to recommend it?

abuse of this website would probably be non-existent if King Brown and a few other left wing yahoo's would take a long walk off a short pier.

Or get squished by the Zamboni. Yes, I’m a left wing yahoo. (hockey variety)


__________________________
We better play defense, King. Start back checking!

Amen Walt,
All we want to do is learn more about the double guns we enjoy. Unfortunately we have to talk about people who would rather we not enjoy our hobbies, but why the heck do we have to put up with people on our website who don't appreciate our freedoms???
If you don't like what we have here, go find people you agree with. Maybe in your own country??
Stan

A notion of censorship and appreciation of our freedoms in the same sentence. Quite an accomplishment.

3-1 for the Jets over the Leafs. Great game...lots of Jets fans in the crowd. Managed to avoid fisticuffs with the home town fans, dammit!

Possibly all us combatants could voluntarily agree to a Resurrection Day truce?

Thomas Gray "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" - Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife.

This is an international board where I pay to do what gunners do when they're together: learn, contribute where they can, reminisce, keep it clean, navigate through ignorance and bad manners as other members do.

If a member offers me advice on spirituality through a duty of care and kindness, I'm obliged to answer and thank him for it. If a member posts errant of common knowledge, most members reply generously and respectfully.

I try to steer clear of partisan politics, saying for years here that it's a punk's game although GaryW above implies the board is a preserve of right-wing yahoos, and Stanley Hoover goes off qualifying membership to those who respect American values.

Easter morning bright and sunny, more of it on national public radio: US trade spokesman unable to explain rationale of NAFTA negotiations, gets feisty and rude, walks out of interview with Canada's most distinguished radio host.

(Sorry, Drew. The elegy wasn't there when I started my post. Why not extend the truce to every day?)

I’m game Drew. As long as good natured gloating about hockey is okay.

Here’s the rationale for NAFTA negotiations according to Jeff Spicoli.

We’re gonna start getting some cool rules, pronto, or we’ll be bogus too.

Las Vegas will eliminate Winnipeg. Toronto isn’t quite ready for prime time. Boston is looking real good.


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How can you not love this game?
https://youtu.be/Ox8hroyI1B8
(3:19. Eewwwwww)

canvasback buying concert tickets at the mall. (circa 1979)

https://youtu.be/-rN1Ynp-kmk


__________________________
Van Halen!
https://youtu.be/ti1BWGgdGL8
https://youtu.be/7Jnri6WmaL0

I Went back to my original question to see if I may have had an 0100 rant. Holy shit on a cracker!! Did this subject go off course and inverted!