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Posted By: shinbone Belgian Guild 16ga SxS - looking for info - 11/18/17 03:01 AM
Hi All,

Below are photos of a new-to-me Belgian Guild 16ga SxS. I am new to Belgian Guild guns and would appreciate any info you experts care to offer. Maker? Year? Etc. . . . TIA!















Great pictures

2 1/2 inch chambers
Made before 1922
Black powder proofed *AV
and then Smokeless proofed *T

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html
That 'T' looks more like an inspectors mark. Can't find a 'date' stamp anywhere in those pics.

The 'JM' is a barrel makers mark and is probably Joseph and Jacques MORAY in Nessonvaux near Liege.

Looks like you got yourself a great little game gun.
The *T is an inspectors mark, see the lion PV under the mark

Same with the *AV , see the EL under the mark
The D = 65/18.7 is chamber dimensions. Chamber was 65 mm long with a diameter just ahead of the rim seat of 18.7 mm.
The P 1K238.6 was weight of the barrels only as proofed.
If those digital scales can be switched to metric you can check to see if they still weigh that or at least very close. If the bores have been honed extensively or otherwise enlarged they will weigh light. If the scales don't convert you will have to convert the kilograms to lbs.
According to the barrel measurement, it's a 12 gauge gun with 2.5" chambers. Damn, it's lightweight too, I want it!

Steve
Originally Posted By: Rockdoc
According to the barrel measurement, it's a 16 gauge gun with 2.5" chambers. Damn, it's lightweight too, I want it!

Steve


That is a sweet gun.
Steve: 18.7mm = .736". The standard U.S. 16g chamber was .745".
The markings just forward of the flats should have bore in mm over muzzle dimensions if made after 1910.

What Treblig said
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...acques%20gb.htm
Shinbone, did you get that on gunbroker? I bid on that as well...
The gun is marked as 16 ga, not 12.
Mike
No kidding. Some things just make you go 'duh'.

While 18.7 may be a tad tight for the chamber, SAAMI drawings show shell diameter as .744 with a tolerance of -.009.

The chamber is likely marked to the 'most significant' tenth of a millimeter.

A shell at SAAMI minimum should chamber.

I had one just like it once. It had an extractor issue so I let it go, but in retrospect, it would have been a simple fix. Oh well. Fantastic little gun.
Beautiful gun. Should be a nice shooter.
Thanks guys for clearing up the bore size misidentification I made. The good news about making an embarrassing mistake like I did was that I won't be likely to make it again. Thanks again!

Steve

PS it's still one helluva nice looking gun and lightweight even for a 16 gauge.
It would be great if we could find out who made that gun. There has to be some way.
Encircled JM initials more than likely points toward either Joseph Moray or Jacques Moray of Nessonvaux, I 2nd the previous post.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Everyone, thanks for all the great info. I'll give it another double-check for any further marks that may direct us toward the maker.

fallschirmjaeger - yes, it is a Gunbroker find. It caught my attention because I am a sucker for a lightweight 16ga SxS.

The first two photos are from the seller. The remaining photos are courtesy of my Fuji X-E2 with a Fujinon 60mm macro lens. The gun was hand held under fluorescent light in my basement.
Definitely look again because I didn't see a 'date code' stamp in any of your previous pics. Got to be one somewhere.

The 'T' inspectors mark is either Laenen Clement from 1952 to 1986 or Vostes Gustave from 1974 to 1988.

Given the other stamps it was probably Laenen Clement's mark.

But the 'AV' inspectors mark looks like the 'V' was stamped over it. The 'A' is probably Louid Croux Francois from 1951 to 1954. And the 'V' is Macon Isidor from 1929 to 1953. So looking at those marks it seems like your gun was built in the early 50s.

Inspector's marks can not be used to date a vintage Belgian double without a lettre annale. The marks were re-used, and the significant of many has been lost; I believe PeteM said related to a fire at the Liege Proof House in the 30s.
I see. So we need that 'date code' stamp for a positive date?

I figured that was to easy when there is nothing easy about figuring out a Belgium Guild gun.
Originally Posted By: shinbone
fallschirmjaeger - yes, it is a Gunbroker find. It caught my attention because I am a sucker for a lightweight 16ga SxS.


Aren't we all!
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Belgian Guild 16ga SxS - looking for info - 11/20/17 06:44 PM
Shinbone:

Glad you're getting some of the info you needed here. Your gun appears to be a really good find. That weight is pretty spectacular, what is the LOP and barrel length? Also, if you have any questions about the barrels, bring it down to the shop and we can check wall thickness. I'm there Fridays these days. Our digital scale also easily converts to metric so we can see how the weight compares to the original stamping.

It sure reminds me of a VL&A Knockabout, but if it were a Francotte it would be marked on it somewhere.
Originally Posted By: treblig1958
I see. So we need that 'date code' stamp for a positive date?


You won't get a date code stamp on that gun. With the exception of a couple years (1922-23?), Belgian guns with the gauge over C in a diamond were made before date codes were in use. If this gun had 16-65 in a sort of sideways horseshoe (there's another term for that?), then it would date from 1924 or later and there would be a date code. The change from the gauge over C to the gauge/chamber length as a proofmark gives you a rough split in production date. Then you start looking for the date code, which will always be there on Belgian guns with the later proofmark.
Lloyd - Thanks for the offer. I will definitely take you up on checking wall thickness. I am hunting this Friday, and so will swing by the next Friday (12/1).

Dimensional info:

Barrels are stamped 1238.6




Weight 1.2386 kilograms

or

2.73064558 pounds

for the barrels
Thanks Larry. Thanks Doc Drew. That explains it. I was beating my brains out trying to figure out why no date stamp. That gauge designation stamp used from 1898 to 1924. Looked right past it.
Larry's sideways horseshoe thingie (or 'Omega reclining' wink )
p = 1937

Just added some more photos, one showing the current weight of the barrels at 1179g. Barrels are stamped at 1238.6, which means 60g of metal has been removed from the barrels since being proofed.

When I do a quick calculation using an average density for steel, the thickness of 60g of metal removed from the diameter of just one bore of these barrels would come to 0.072 thousandths. Meaning a negligible change in wall thickness from proof.
I'd be interested in more info on how you calculated that.

That's a 5% weight loss. Seems pretty significant to me.

Remember the barrel tubes don't make up the entire weight of the set.

Are we sure the stamped weight is after final striking?


Posted By: keith Re: Belgian Guild 16ga SxS - looking for info - 11/21/17 06:17 AM
Originally Posted By: shinbone


When I do a quick calculation using an average density for steel, the thickness of 60g of metal removed from the diameter of just one bore of these barrels would come to 0.072 thousandths. Meaning a negligible change in wall thickness from proof.


You might want to check your calculation again because .072" is .005" greater than the difference between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge bore. That is hardly a negligible difference.
Originally Posted By: keith
Originally Posted By: shinbone


When I do a quick calculation using an average density for steel, the thickness of 60g of metal removed from the diameter of just one bore of these barrels would come to 0.072 thousandths. Meaning a negligible change in wall thickness from proof.


You might want to check your calculation again because .072" is .005" greater than the difference between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge bore. That is hardly a negligible difference.


Yes, 60g off of 1239g is a 4.8% change, which I agree is not insignificant. Hmmmmm . . . .

The number I got was .072 *thousandths*, but I was a little rushed when I did the calculation and will recheck today.
No need for math.
The bore at the time of proof is marked just forward of the flats. What is the bore now?
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
No need for math.
The bore at the time of proof is marked just forward of the flats. What is the bore now?


Yes, but I won't be able to take advantage of Lloyd's generosity to make wall measurements until next Friday, and I was hoping to get an idea before then. Plus, as a former* engineering nerd, I wanted to have a little fun playing with the numbers.

*That I screwed up the calculation illustrates why the word "former" is used in conjunction with the word "engineering" in the previous paragraph. And, I did find an error so ignore the previous number. I won't post my new results until I have gone over it a few times.
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Belgian Guild 16ga SxS - looking for info - 11/22/17 12:19 AM
Shinbone: I will be there this friday, but fear that I may be out back-of-beyond next Friday now, chasing elk (old habits die hard). Can I get a rain check until the following week? I would like to see your gun in person.
Lloyd - No problem on the timing. Good luck on your elk hunt, too. I am sending a PM
Photos of barrel marking in front of the flats are below. I understand the gauge designations, but why the ratio and why two ratios for each barrel?



Black powder proof, smallest internal diameter (16.9)

Smoke powder proof, done later with a larger internal diameter
from "Freshing up the barrels" (17.0)

others are choke diameters (16.3 and 16.4)

Mike

http://www.shotguns.se/html/belgium.html

See proof mark chart 16th block down smile

1910-1924 Liege

Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction
Thanks. Why are the numbers shown as a ratio?
Why looking like a ratio??
I was NOT born yet in 1924
he he he
Enjoy the gun
How does it shoot?
Mike
Got it. Not a ratio, just choke diameter over bore diameter. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: shinbone
Got it. Not a ratio, just choke diameter over bore diameter. Thanks.


Now you've got it. I read that as .025 constriction--pretty close to full in a 16ga. You'll likely want to have those opened or you'll be turning those quail into clouds of feathers!
Actually 17.0::16.4 is a ratio; 17.0/16.4 is fractional. As Skeetx has stated in Liege Belgium proof from 1910-1924 it is simply choke diameter over bore diameter written as a fraction.
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
I read that as .025 constriction--pretty close to full in a 16ga. You'll likely want to have those opened or you'll be turning those quail into clouds of feathers!


Both chokes read as a wide IM when I slide my little choke gauge measurer into the muzzles. I know that those gauges are not super accurate because they don't take into account actual bore diameter, but, yes, tighter than what I want.

If the barrel walls do indeed mic okay, I am thinking I may want the barrels opened to skeet and modified. You can reach out pretty far with a modified choke. That'd be about perfect for dusky and ruffed grouse, as well as quail.
At the time this gun was proofed 0.025" constriction would have been considered on the order of am IM choke. With today's plastic shotcup wads they will most likely run full as SkeetX said. One word of advice that is often quoted on this forum is try them for a while as is & if possible pattern them with some different loads before you jump in & modify them.
Try handloads with 'brush wads' and chilled shot.

That might get you south of modified.

Edit: Somehow I thought the Herter's shells were in 67mm cases, but they aren't, although they do wear the CIP logo.

I'm pretty sure it's the Gamebore shells that are in 67mm cases, although I have none on hand and can't check.


Originally Posted By: 2-piper
At the time this gun was proofed 0.025" constriction would have been considered on the order of am IM choke. With today's plastic shotcup wads they will most likely run full as SkeetX said. One word of advice that is often quoted on this forum is try them for a while as is & if possible pattern them with some different loads before you jump in & modify them.


Thanks for the advice. Once the barrel walls are hopefully confirmed safe, I will shoot it for choke pattern and stock fit at Cherry Creek Reservoir, then make a decision on what, if anything, I would do to the gun.
Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones

I'm pretty sure it's the Gamebore shells that are in 67mm cases, although I have none on hand and can't check.




I believe that in 16ga, Gamebores are only available in the "Traditional Game" load. Those are marked 2 1/2". I have Gamebore Traditional Game 20's (marked 2 1/2") and Pure Gold 20's marked 2 3/4".

I like the Gamebores, but for a 16ga, I'd just go with RST's (or Polywads) if I were looking for short, low pressure shells.
Gamebore shows on their website the 2-1/2 "Regal Game" load in 16ga. It is 1 oz at 1350 fps, which sounds like plenty of punch to me, old lightweight gun or not. I can't find any USA retailers, though.

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/16g-regal-game
I field tested a few 16ga RST 1 oz copper 6 loads on Iowa pheasants last week. Dropped 3 birds with 3 shots. 2 came down dead. I didn't center the 3rd as well, and he came down in some really heavy cover. The dog didn't mark him, and the cover was far easier for a rooster with 2 good legs to navigate than for either me or the dog. Sorry to say I lost that one, but I don't fault either the load or the dog. 1200 fps. I'd go with those in a light gun like yours.

I don't see any reason for a lot of extra velocity. But with British shells, the velocity they list can be misleading. We measure velocity at 3 feet from the muzzle. The Brits use a couple methods, neither of them equivalent to what we do. One of those methods is TRUE muzzle velocity--measured right at the muzzle. 1350 fps at the muzzle works out to about 1250 fps at our standard 3 foot measuring point. So they might not be all that much faster than the RST's. But the RST's are not all that pricey ($11/box for standard lead, $15.50 for copper), and they'll sell you a mixed flat with a variety of shot sizes and payloads.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Gamebore-16ga-25-1oz-6-25_box/productinfo/G1625GHF286/

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/258466...1-2-1-oz-6-shot


Those are about $5/box more than you'll pay for RST's (unless you go with the copper plated stuff).
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
. . . with British shells, the velocity they list can be misleading. We measure velocity at 3 feet from the muzzle. The Brits use a couple methods, neither of them equivalent to what we do. One of those methods is TRUE muzzle velocity--measured right at the muzzle. 1350 fps at the muzzle works out to about 1250 fps at our standard 3 foot measuring point. So they might not be all that much faster than the RST's.


Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of the differing measurement methods. I was wondering how 1 oz at 1350fps was "low recoil for use with your light weight game gun."
Lloyd3 was very kind and took some time yesterday to look over the gun and make various measurements to the barrels and stock. I am happy to report that the thinnest spot in the barrel walls measured at .021".

The gun is choked pretty tight at R=.027" and L=.024."
Those are tight chokes. Where's the thin spot located?
And what are the barrel bore markings, and bores now?
That thin spot is by the tip of the forearm.

Drew, I am new to these types of guns, so I not sure which marking you are referring to, but all the markings on the gun are shown in the previous photos. I didn't record the bore diameter.
At the time of initial proof the R bore was 16.8mm=.661"; L 16.9mm=.665". The gun was reproved after honing with a bore of 17.0=.669".
Possibly Lloyd might recall the current bore, which I believe would show additional honing.
.021" at 14-16" is thin
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit
My regular recreational skeet gun is a 16g with similar wall thickness. I only use RST 3/4 oz. at 4600 psi (and a similar handload) AND the barrel wears a spring steel and leather hand guard which perfectly covers the thin spot.
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
At the time of initial proof the R bore was 16.8mm=.661"; L 16.9mm=.665". The gun was reproved after honing with a bore of 17.0=.669".
Possibly Lloyd might recall the current bore, which I believe would show additional honing.
.021" at 14-16" is thin
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit
My regular recreational skeet gun is a 16g with similar wall thickness. I only use RST 3/4 oz. at 4600 psi AND the barrel wears a spring steel and leather hand guard which perfectly covers the thin spot.


What kind of scale do you recommend when shopping for guns with barrel weight struck on them. Belgian, Spanish and some Italian guns come to mind. What would be best? Digital fishing scale, food scale or luggage weighing scale. confused The food scale would be most bulky and digital luggage scale form Aldi cheapest.
Posted By: keith Re: Belgian Guild 16ga SxS - looking for info - 11/26/17 03:40 PM
Save your money Jagermeister. We all know that you are just a tire-kicker who doesn't own even one lousy double gun, and most likely never will.

You might get lucky and find one on the road that someone left on the deck lid of their car, much like the guy who found "Bo Whoop" lost by Nash Buckingham. But that's as close as you'll ever get.

Isn't it bad enough that the dealers at the gun shops you frequent have to waste time with you, and wipe your drool off the display cases? Now you want to waste even more of their time and disassemble guns that you will never buy just so you can weigh the barrels.
Those barrel measurements are starting to get a little unnerving.
You know your thread has finally "made the big time" when Keith's attacks on Jagermeister make an appearance.
Sweet gun Shinbone but I would invest in a reloading press if you don't already have one.
Originally Posted By: treblig1958
Sweet gun Shinbone but I would invest in a reloading press if you don't already have one.


Thanks!

While I am getting close to pulling the trigger on rifle reloading, shotgun reloading is not in my near future. I will just use low-pressure loads from RST. That is an easy choice since it has the 2-1/2" chambers, anyway.
Unless you're going to run a lot of shells through that 16ga, going with RST's is a reasonable choice.
Shinbone, I have a super lightweight 16 gauge French guild gun with 2.5" chambers. I simply extended the forcing cones and I shoot 2.75" 1 ounce Estates or Federals through it. It kicks like hell but after several flats I've never had a problem.
Steve
Yea, but he has a thin spot in those barrels just forward of the forearm. A little to close to the chamber.

However way to beautiful of a shotgun to not have a name on it.
Rockdoc - Thanks for the suggestion and it would be nice to be able to shoot stuff I can find on the shelves at Walmart, but I think I will leave well enough alone and stick with 2-1/2" loads due to the .021" spot.
Don't forget that if you push the same amount of shot to the same velocity, the one with "Lowest max chamber pressure" is likely going to have a bit higher pressure down the bore where that thin spot is than one with a bit higher chamber pressure.
Once you get beyond round 4" to 6" from the breech actual bore pressures do not vary my much, regardless of the load.
To get the absolute lowest pressure down where that thin spot is use a light shot charge, lower velocity or both. Then use a load which gives the "Highest Chamber Pressure" compatible with the gun's proof.
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