Have you ever shot those little 1 3/4” shells in them? Or have you ever considered cutting down a pair of 12/20 gauge mates to fit your gun? 20 gauge trainer loads of 3/4 oz. 2 dram equivalent are pretty low pressure and way cheaper than 2 inch shells.

I never thought about it. My 2" Arrieta is only used for hunting. I shoot a few boxes of shells before the season with it, then hunt. A few cases of RST shells lasts for years.

+1. I just don't see the need to fool around with inserts.

Ken

When I had my 2" double I reloaded cut down Federal paper hulls. They were easy to do and smelled great when I shot them. Never saw the need to try to shoot 20ga. shells in it as reloaded 12's were very easy and cheap.

A cut down parallel tube case; plastic or paper, down to 2" CCI 109 or Win 209 primer and 19.5 grains of Red Dot with card and felt wads 7/8th.ounce of shot and topped with a roll crimp is a tried and tested load that is within the proof limits of the 2" chamber gun. It is a load I sometimes use but prefer 21.5 grains of Vectan AS powder if you can get that over your side. Both loads have been submitted and tested at the Proof House. Lagopus.....

What do you guys hunt with those tiny shells?

TM

Pheasant and quail! They do the job well.

Ken

Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock. They are a little short but still handle 7/8 or 15/16 oz of shot well.
Dave

But, what is the advantage of a 2" chambered gun? Anything more than it being a novelty?

SRH

Stan,

For me it is lightweight. The British guns were made to come in at 5 1/2 lbs or a little less. They handle 15/16 and 7/8 oz loads well. British 20s may come in this weight, but ... And these were only made for a short time (novelty).

Ken

The English versions are lighter to carry.

Best,
Ted

Than what?

SRH

Well, near as I can tell, THEN you don't have money left to buy cute little 2" ammunition.
Honestly, I always thought the guy who dreamed up the 2" gun was trying to sell me something I already owned.
The only advantage I ever saw was it would be easier to carry back to the truck than a 2 3/4" gun, on a day you got skunked.

Best,
Ted

I don't even see how it's easier to carry, anywhere, than a 20 of the same weight and carrying the same load, for which you can buy ammo anywhere........ for $5.50/box.

SRH

It was an attempt to create and fill a specialty niche. A 12 which could be made as light as a 20, shoot a payload which had a very short shot string, which was about what a 20 would shoot. I don't think our British cousins ever had the mania for small bores like we do over here. Small bores were seen as guns for youths, females and old men. A 12, even a 2" 12, would be seen as a mans gun.

The one I had was just an ounce or two over five pounds. Choked what patterned like tight IM and LtM. Very fast swinging gun which had a small bore feel to it. One of the reasons I let it go it was very limited by the shell payload and the fact that I had multiple small bores that did the same thing.

Stan,

I don't think anyone can argue a 2" gun has an advantage over something else. The topic has been brought up on this board over the years. The heyday for the 2" 12 was in the 1930s probably to compete with the lightweight 12 craze like Churchill XXVs.

Check out this old thread Arrieta 2". A lot of discussion, but no single answer.

Ken

1. You have the proportions & "feel" of a traditional 2 1/2" chambered 12 ga game gun in a gun of light 20 ga. weight.

2. You don't have any worries re. blowing up a 12 ga gun by loading a 20 ga shell in front of a 12 ga shell (it does happen & more frequently than it should).

They reportedly throw spectacular patterns and kill very efficiently.

Brittany Man,

Your first answer is a good one. While I don't feel the need or desire for such, I can get my head around someone maybe wanting that. But, the deal with the 20 ga. shell in the 12 is more of a stretch, IMHO. People spending money to protect themselves from their own carelessness has always been a foreign concept to me.

Thank you for the reply, SRH

I don't think the patterns would be any different than a 2 3/4" shell with the same pay load - 3/4 or 7/8oz of shot. The shot column is the same height so the short shot sting is the same for both. JMHO

Average 2"-12 Bore Game Gun - 5# 6 oz, Balance to trigger = 3 5/8", unmounted swing = 0.95, mounted swing = 4.75, bbl length = 26", LOP = 14 1/2", compactness = 9.06

Average Light Game Gun - 6# 4 oz, Bal to trigger = 4", unmounted swing = 1.2, mounted swing = 5.94, bbl length = 28", LOP = 14 3/4", compactness = 9.44

Average Game Gun - 6# 8 oz, bal to trigger = 4 1/2", unmounted swing = 1.45, mounted swing = 6.38, bbl length = 28", LOP = 14 1/4", compactness = 10.17

Comparisons among the three listed gun types shown above show how these types compare quantitatively on average. Post back with any questions.

Stan, if you want 12 bore, very light, rear balance, and very fast swing efforts, the 12-2" does deliver. The key is that you insist on 12 bore.

As far as patterns, I see no reason to imagine the 12-2" would throw patterns any materially different than any other gun with similar choke.

DDA

I don't plan to buy any 2" 12ga guns, but somehow creeping age and open heart surgery has gotten me somewhat recoil sensitive. I'm using my 20ga guns more often. I shot a 20ga Rem 11-87 for ducks in Sask this year and it was alright. I think next year I'm going over to Herters low recoil for my 12ga sxs guns...Geo

They are for the man who already owns a larger 12 bore and wants a light little carry gun that weight for weight shot load will out perform a 20. In England we tend to fit the bore to the weight of the gun and shot charge. 9/16th. Oz for a 28, 13/16th. Oz. for a 20 and 15/16th.Oz. for a 16. The 2" 12 was a bit of a novelty in the 1930's in an attempt to reinvent the wheel. Ammo is still available from a number of makers but may not be in stock at every gun shop and may need to be ordered. They are just fun little guns for something different to use sometimes. They mount well and seem to pattern better than they should. I certainly like mine even though it only ventures out a couple of times a year when I am moved to use it. Lagopus.....

The reason I asked about what you hunt with a 2" shell is because I have a little Belgian double 12 ga. with 2 5/8 chambers, I loaded up some 1oz bismuth loads going 1200 fps for duck hunting, it works fine for jump shooting, and probably wold be good for over decoys but not so much for pass shooting, or I'm just getting to be a bad shot I have been using my Dickinson 20 for Ducks also, but would love to have something to hunt with this little Belgian, it weighs just over 6 lbs, and compared to my 10 lb 10 ga is a dream to carry.

We are going to do a pheasant/chucker hunt in Dec. all pen raised, so hopefully they will hold until we are close.

Can someone suggest a good load for this gun and those birds, we don't get a lot of chance to hunt upland birds in Utah, at least not where I live.

Thanks
TM

I actually have a 3" 20 gauge Italian boxlock double that tips the scales at 6 1/2lbs, or so. I would have dismissed it, out of hand, 20 seasons ago, but, dang, if it isn't a comfortable gun to shoot with standard ammunition. It actually handles almost the same as a Spanish 12 gauge boxlock I own, also chambered for 3" ammunition, that I'm not brave enough to feed 3" magnum 12 gauge stuff to. Both were designed for 3" ammunition, but, most days, I am not. I haven't shot at a duck in most of 40 seasons.
20 gauge guns always seemed pretty lethal on upland game to me. I'm thinking that right around the time plastic shot cups replaced felt wads, the difference between a 20 gauge and a 2 1/2" twelve became moot.
I have inherited a ton of 3" 12 and 20 ammunition. I suspect someone is going to inherit it all from me, someday.

Best,
Ted

I've always thought that the English 2-inch guns were pretty neat. Handling is usually spectacular and visually... they always looked interesting to me as well. That big standing breach and tubeset on such a petite action always looked so... inviting. I've actually dated women with similar attributes.

Stan,

I don't think the 20 ga shell in a 12 ga gun is a stretch at all. Accidents that I know about happen every few years w the 20 in a 12 & I know of a 28 ga in a 16 ga w/ the same violent result. I'm betting the people it happened to didn't consider themselves careless until after the incident.

I consider myself to be a very detail oriented person & every year after bird season ends I clean out the hunting vests my wife & I use, vacuuming out the game bags & pockets for feathers & debris & removing all empty & loaded hulls before I put them away for the season. Several times over the years I've later found a loaded round that got missed (usually in a vest that doesn't have shell loops in the pockets). Suppose that was a 20 ga shell that got fed into a 12 ga gun while you were reloading & marking a bird down or watching a dog bring a bird in & later a 12 ga shell got dropped on top of it.

My point is that accidents do happen & that is one reason I am not fond of rotating 20 ga guns w/12 ga guns & 28 ga guns w/ 16 ga guns & the 2" 12 ga is another & rather elegant way of avoiding the problem while having a gun of 20 ga weight.

On the sizing issue I really do find a 20ga SxS w/a splinter forend too thin in the left hand & a beavertail forend sort of defeats the purpose of of downsizing to a 20 ga.

While that's all true, if I had to guess the number of 2" 12 gauge guns sold to prevent a 20/12 accident I'd say exactly zero.

Don,

Can you post similar data on 2 or 3 20 gauge examples?

Thanks,
Ken

Have you thought about seeing a shrink? Mistaking a side by side for Venus can sneak up on a man with disastrous results. For the present try repeating the mantra “ this is my rifle, this is my gun, etc etc.

I dunno, Brittany Man. I shoot a lot, all year long. If I reach into my shell bag or vest pocket and my hand closes around a 20 ga. shell, when I'm shooting a 12, I know it before it ever sees light. The size, the weight, it's too different. But, I guess if someone is OCD .................

You know, between the cars, tractors, trucks, combines, power units and generators, I've got twenty-something that burn either diesel or gasoline. We've never put diesel in a gas burner or gasoline in a diesel. Ain't that just a pluperfect wonder? Why, it would certainly make more sense to own either all gas burners, or all diesels.

SRH

Lloyd3
Bumps are quite nice

Back in the Days when Francis Sell was heavily promoting the 3"20 gauge he stated the 20 would actually out range the 12 when both were loaded with 1 1/4 oz shot. He published pictures of patterns to "Prove" it. The reason he gave was the slower, more progressive, powders used in the long 20's gave denser centers to the pattern with adequate coverage to a bit longer range. Of course they also gave raggeder outer edges as well. My personal "Opinion", though unproven is the longer shot column in the 20 put more shot in contact with the choke which put more shot in the center of the pattern. I believe the .410 has even more of this effect. It an be a good killer out to around 30 yds, give or take a bit, if one is a very good shot. I well know my own personal limitations & prefer a light 20 with ordinary 7/8 oz loads if shooting factory. If handloading 3/4 oz loads can be used with good affect in many situations. For my personal hunting I have little use of anything smaller than the 20, love the 16 but freely admit the 12 is the most versatile gauge ever built or likely to be built in shotgun design as we know it today "Long Live the 12". This was intended for the 12 gauge society thread but I believe it has been locked so these seemed the next best place to post it.
Miller/TN

Thank you Skeettx.

I've always had a soft place in my heart for a 2" English sxs but have never found one I could justify the cost. The closest I can come is a Bernardelli 12ga sxs at 5 lb 15 oz shooting 7/8 or 1 oz of shot has been deadly on wild pheasants and sharptails.

I'm a big believer in Murphey's Law & if you carry 12 ga & 20 ga shells in the same vest very often you will likely be a convert of Murphey also.

I would agree. A hunting trip has been gauge specific for me since my Dad taught me that.
Actually, Dad's gun cabinet was gauge specific. 12s only. Mine, not so much.

Best,
Ted

Brother recently put 'Roundup' in the diesel tractor. Anyone who can do that could load the wrong shell...Geo

The 2 3/4 loaded in a gun chambered for 2 5/8 will have 500psi or less rise in pressure, so you should be safe if you know your pressure. I have many old Remington SxS's and have never worried about it, but I do hand load at lower pressures.

Ken, sorry for so long to get back to you - got busy. Below are two averages of 20 gauge guns in my data base. There is actually a pretty strong break between the types. Note that there is little difference between the 12-2" and the Very light 20 gauge and, likewise, between the light 20 gauge and the light 12 gauge game gun.

Average very light 20 Gauge - 5# 8 oz, Bal to trigger = 4", Unmounted swing = 1.03, Mounted swing = 4.91, Bbl length = 26 9/16", LOP = 14 1/8", Compactness = 9.35

Average light 20 Gauge - 6# 6 oz, Bal to trigger = 4 1/2", Unmounted swing = 1.16, Mounted swing = 5.89, Bbl length = 26 5/8", LOP = 4 1/16", Compactness = 9.18

Hope this helps with the discussion.

Post back with any questions.

DDA

Don ... Thanks for posting the information. The 20s from a handling standpoint are a close match to the 12s.

The shell payload of a 2" 12 (7/8 or 15/16) matches the 20. I doubt there is a good way to show the 2" 12 will pattern better than a 2 1/2" 20 with the same payload. I know I wouldn't want to shoot today's 20 gauge (2 3/4") target loads for long in a 5 1/2 lb 20 for very long.

Ken

True enough.

A standard 20 target load is manageable in a 6 1/4 pound gun. I've burned a couple hundred a day many, many times.

But when you get under 6 pounds, a 28 gauge target load in a 20 gauge hull is just the ticket.

The trend is toward loading the 20 lighter, and we have wads and components that make this easy now.

It took me a while to come around, but the acquisition of a 6 pound 20 gauge SxS convinced me.

You shoot better when it doesn't hurt.

Actually, Ken, there is a way to accurately compare them. Dr. A. C. Jones created a beautiful computer analysis system called shotgun insights. It provides analysis of digital photos of patterns at the statistically significant level. There might be a problem in finding a 2" 12 and 2 1/2" 20 with comparable constriction. But, for someone who has the time and inclination, it is certainly possible.

DDA

Volume of shots fired & conditions under which they are fired of course play a major role in this. I recall on one occasion using 1 factory 1 1/4 oz 3" 20 gauge load of #4 shot to kill a young Blue Goose from a 6 1/4 lb double. (Italian Rich-land 707). Didn't feel a thing when she went off. A couple hundred rounds in an afternoon on a range would be a totally different thing.

A younger co-worker of mine, he was abou 40 at the time, bought a used Spanish 12 gauge double. 28" barreled, DTNE, choked I/C-Mod with factory 3" chambers. He put one of those
1 7/8 oz Roman Candle loads in each barrel, picked out something to shoot at, threw it to his shoulder with a finger on each trigger. He yanked both triggers simultaneously & there was one big loud Ka-Bloom. He was laughing as he lowered the gun & said she's just a mere Pussy-Cat & went on his merry way. Sure sounds like a big bunch of Sissies around here to me.
Miller/TN

"Sure sounds like a big bunch of Sissies around here to me."

Hey.

I resemble that remark...

It's all about how much the gun weighs, how you mount it, and how well fits you. I agree that a 5 1/2# gun could provide more recoil than one might want under high volume. But, that's not it's niche. The lightweights are for carrying all day and shooting occasionally.

OTOH, add just a few ounces to the gun, make sure it fits you, and you can shoot an unlimited amount through it without a problem. My Beretta 687 SPII Sporting weighs 6# 3.9 oz, empty. I have put nearly 1500 rounds through it in six hours of shooting doves in Cordoba, using mostly 7/8 oz. loads, with no recoil issues. My shoulder would be slightly tender by late afternoon, but completely normal the next morning. And, the thing is, I can easily carry that gun all day in the uplands without tiring.

I'm with Miller. I'm amazed at the inability of so many to handle a little recoil, nobody here in particular, and, I might add, the inability to carry a gun that weighs over 6 lbs. I understand that heart surgery and other things can be extenuating circumstances, but I'm afraid we have become a country of pussies.

SRH

Much like the fact that a phone must reach from the mouth to the ear, I couldn't help but notice in Don's data, that the point of diminishing returns is reached in this battle.

I don't see better shooting on game with super light shotguns.

I must be turning into a "pussy" when I was younger my favorite gun for waterfowl was my 10 lb double 10 Ga. Actually I have two of them, one with 22" barrels (long story) and one with 32" barrels, I used to jump shoot the local field in the river bottoms, so it got packed all day, the only time I got hurt by one of them, I was shooting some heavy BPI loads and it double fired on me, my arm went numb and I almost dropped the gun.

Now that I'm a little older I find it so pleasant to carry my 6# double 20 Ga.

TM

Stan--What we have become is a nation where far fewer people have jobs involving significant physical labor. It's interesting to note, re gun weight, that American classic smallbores are far more sought after (and command a far higher price--both supply and demand working in their favor) than are 12's. Thus, to a certain degree, the "pussification" of this country when it comes to what a gun weighs.

I'd have no issue with your gun--and in fact carried one a few ounces heavier hunting Iowa pheasants last week--if we're talking about open country birds. But a lot of people who hunt grouse and woodcock (and who spend a significant amount of time actually IN the puckerbrush as opposed to walking trails) would probably find it a bit heavy. I would. I'm right about at my "woods gun" max with a recently acquired Rizzini 550 28ga, at 5 3/4 pounds. The stuff I hunt requires a lot of one hand carrying. Even lighter would be better, and after the season's over, I'm thinking about stock surgery to convert a PG to straight (which I prefer anyhow) and shaving off another 2 or 3 ounces. But open country hunting, I don't think 6 1/2 should be much of an issue. Remembering the guys who carried 12ga A-5's when I was a kid, that has to be a piece of cake. But then I remember what most of those guys did for a living . . .

Re recoil, I'm not particularly sensitive. But some people are sold on the idea that either a very heavy load of shot and/or warp speed velocity are necessary to bag a pheasant. The 4 I collected last week all fell to Kent Gamebore 1 1/16 oz loads. I like that particular 2 1/2" load, although the gun through which I shot them is chambered 2 3/4", and I had my "heavy" load--a 1 1/8 oz reload--available in the full choke barrel. Given all that choke, I figure that 1 1/8 oz 6's gives me all the range I both might need and am capable of using. Something like 1 1/4 oz @ 1500 fps, which is what we see in a lot of today's "premium" pheasant loads . . . no thanks. I'm sure the gun would handle it, but I might find myself flinching in anticipation. And I don't think the pheasant--unless maybe he's out there at 50 yards or so--would notice the difference.

So, as we've become a nation of people who do less physical labor, we've also become a nation of people who won't put forth any off-the-job effort to stay in shape either, eh?

I'll stand by my earlier statement, and will add lazy to that previous description.

SRH

We have become a nation of older people, and a lot of the people in this game and on this board, are very old.
My younger brother no longer hunts. He is disabled, has developed diabetes, and has had a chunk of his left foot amputated. Not a pussy, but, not in the game.
The younger kids at my range shooting on the high school teams often don't hunt. I've asked a bunch of them, and for the most part, it's just their team thing they do in high school. No need for heavy loads, and, wisely, they don't use them.
I have just a few friends I hunt with, one is developing MS, and can't be counted on to go anymore. One is recently retired, and has rediscovered motorcycles, and only has so much time left for doing some hunting. I see Lloyd once a year. I think his go to gun is under 6 pounds. He hits it, hard, while he is up north.
I keep walking, but, my knees bother me more. I never minded a lighter gun, but, I enjoy them even more today. My job is quite physical, I need make no excuses for the shape I'm in, still a 33/34" waist.
But, everything hurts more than it used to. Getting old 'aint for sissies.

Best,
Ted

I'm with you, Ted. But, you just can't give in to it. You've got to keep going, even though it gets harder. I am on no prescription meds except for a drop of Timolol in my right eye each morning, for glaucoma. I still wear 32 x 34 jeans, but I struggle staying that way much more than I did 15 years ago. I'm not bragging, because I know much of our health is inherited. But, staying healthy and fit doesn't just happen, it requires work. And, the older we get the more effort it requires. But, the rewards are worth the effort, IMO. As I convalesce from this motorcycle accident I am more determined than ever to completely get over it in time to hunt as usual the rest of this season. I'm only a few days older than I was before the crash, but I'm waaaay wiser in that regard.

All my best, SRH

Hell Ted . . . you're a youngster! I've picked up some pounds I don't need since I had my ankle operated on last winter. Used to control weight by running from about March until the start of hunting season. Even got medals in road races. (My wife called them "appearance awards", and she was pretty much right. In the small local 5K's I ran, often maybe only 1 other runner in my age group.) I miss that, and depending on how a lot of walking on my foot works out--so far have done quite a bit chasing grouse, woodcock, and now pheasants--I may ask the foot doc if it's a good idea.

Likely an operation after the season's over for a cataract in my R eye. Shooting sporting clays or 5 stand, some targets just flat disappear on me. But doing OK on live birds so far.

Stan, I completely agree with you. Americans have become a bunch of sissies. Just look at the amount of time and money we devote to fixing our teeth and removing unwanted hair. Not to mention soft and fluffy toilet paper. What was wrong with news paper? Or that wax paper the English used to use? People complaining about their knees. A previous generation would have just strapped a couple of two by fours to their legs and walked stiffly into the sunset with only the occasional moan. Did George Washington complain when he accidentally put his wooden teeth in upside down. No, he manned up. Said “ Hamn the horpidoes, full feed ahead”.

My attraction to lighter guns is a result of shoulder surgery. At 70, I still try to stay in shape by cycling 20-40 miles a week during the summer and hammering the woods come hunting season. Aches and pains or not, I'd rather have them in the woods as not.
A body in motion, stays in motion as they say. My foot surgery didn't stop me.
Karl

The problem with most people's knees is that they are obese to begin with. Knees weren't designed to bear that much weight.

SRH

Do note I personally do not recommend placing two max loaded 3" 12 gauge magnums into a 6 1/2 lb gun & pulling both triggers simultaneously for the sake of either me or the gun, bound to put a lot of undue stress on the juncture of the bar & standing breech. For 40+ years though, over which time I put on well over 50 lbs of weight, my #1 go to gun was a 7 1/2 lb 12 gauge. Gun is choked essentially quarter & modified. I have used it for everything from quail, a few woodcock etc up through ducks & a couple of turkeys. As I grew older & heavier I began having some trouble carrying "ME" around these TN hills, but not truly a problem with the gun itself. used it into my 70's. At 79 now & with medical problems which simply do not allow me to get out & hunt at all I no longer carry any gun afield. Lacking these problems I would likely still me toting that 7 1/2 lb 12 gauge Lefever along when I went.

Larry, you’re awesome. Gonna have to start calling you Brown—James Brown.
Agent Double Oh 82. (Not sure how old you are)


___________________________
I Feel Good!
https://youtu.be/B1wOK9yGUYM

I've been driven hard and put up wet. If I were a gun I'd consider myself a project gun. Played college football two years too long. Both shoulders need rebuilding, back is my most limiting problem but my knees are still serviceable. Don't take any pain meds and have chosen to just keep going as long as I can. Weight control has helped a lot. If my father can walk a mile and a half at 95 I can do a miles as is.

No Rx will fix nerve pain and having my own DEA number is too great a chance for self medication problems. I've seen dozen of other doctors fall into that trap. Pain, you just have to get live with and get on doing what you want to do. I was 28' up a ladder, cleaning out gutters Saturday, just in time for 3" rain Sunday. Heading back east in a few weeks to thin out the duck population. Just keep grinding.

The weight of a field gun is a compromise between being light enough to carry all day and heavy enough to shoot well when the time comes.

Presumably, we become better shots with age and experience. We also (in some cases at least) are out there for a slightly different reason than youngsters. We have lost the desire and need to kill everything that might go up just to prove that we can. Quality of experience becomes more important that quantity. This is called 'maturity'.

A lighter gun adds measurably to the enjoyment of the day.

There's a fine line between turning into a big pussy and just getting smarter about the hunting concept as a whole.

Describes my sentiments perfectly. Thank you.

Really? I thought your repeated denials over many years that the 2nd Amendment protected an Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms more accurately describes your sentiments King. These are your words... not mine:



By the way, the Liberal Democrat Obama strongly disagreed with both the Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions which reaffirmed the IRKBA provision of the 2nd Amendment in 2008. I thought you'd appreciate the reminder. You're most welcome!

My experience is just the opposite, the people who stayed active and involved with sports ran into knee trouble. I tore an ACL three years past at work, have not elected to have it repaired just yet. The other knee was injured in high school, torn miniscus and fractured cap, running track, which, ended right there, but, it didn't bother me in Golden Gloves. I did my road work a little slower, after freshman year, however.
I have trouble running, today, but, walk at least 2-4 everyday in the winter, and hold on in white knuckled fear when my Setter takes me for a bike ride, weather permitting. I ride my bicycles a lot. Still try to make The Lake Pepin three speed tour every spring.
Only meds are two asprins or Aleve on the bad days at work, those are typically thursdays or fridays when I've had to cut or throw paper into a press or folder. I walk out of the building tired!
But, I see it sneaking into my friends and family. I have more friends that have given it up, then friends that will take me up on an offer of a day hunting.

That, is the hell of it.

Best,
Ted

I'll admit I worded that "not too carefully", Ted. What I really should have said was .......... in the South, I believe obesity to be the number one cause of bad knees. Surely, athletic injuries account for some bad knees ............. old football players love to brag about their injuries, but in the big scheme of things I have seen that really active people are usually not badly overweight, and don't have nearly as many knee problems as overweight people.

SRH

It would seem far better to get light weight English gun with 65mm chambers. Fine one sold very recently at Hill Rod & Gun Co. It was G.E. Lewis BLE with 28" barrels choked 1/4-1/2 with weight listed at 5lb9oz.

2 1/2" guns are certainly more versatile. And Lewis made some real lightweights. I owned one that was just a tick under 6#, and it was factory bored 2 3/4".

I bet he would not do that 10-20 times in fairly rapid succession! IMO, there is nothing manly about absorbing unnecessary recoil. Recoil is cumulative in that the more you shoot over time the more sensitive you will become. I have to admit though that some people are just more able to absorb it for longer periods without developing a flinch.

WRE1;
I am in full agreement, in fact in a follow up post I stated I would not expose either me or a gun to such abuse. Just thought I'd stir the pot a bit.
The Mag 20 loads with 1 1/4 oz shot from that 6 1/4 lb gun had Stout, though not abusive, recoil. This load had a good bit lower velocity than a "High Brass (3 3/4 DE-1 1/4 oz) 12 gauge load.
As stated it was quite usable for its intended purpose in hunting situations where only a few shots would be fired. Its accumulative affects would become abusive if a large unmber of shots were fired in a short period of time.