Navets volants. Well that’s what the English to French online translator yielded for “flying turnips”. However when Navets volants was reversed into a translator, it became “steering wheel stinker” in one version, “flying parsnips” in another. Is it possible that the Parker engraver “ex-patriated” to France? My 16 gauge Ideal 302/2 arrived from France yesterday. 70 cm (27.5”) barrels, cyl/xf, fully swamped. 5 lbs., 14.4 oz. with the soon to be removed pachyderm foot pad for a recoil pad. And Bugs Bunny’s dog? Pick up the damn duck, don’t point it. This is the gun I mentioned I was expecting to arrive in the New Guns thread. The condition of the metal far exceeded expectations based on the sale photos appearing on Naturabuy. While not the refined, exquisite engraving on canvasback’s Ideal 6EE appearing in the new guns thread, it appeals to me and is more than appropriate for my lower grade 302/2 extractor model made in the mid-1930’s. I am quite pleased with it. Gil

Neat gun, Gil. Straight stock or bump?

Navets Volants.....I like that. I'm going with flying parsnips.

I'm lucky enough to have handled this gun. Gil is right, the engraving is very attractive, although I think he is downplaying it a bit. Better yet, what engraving is there looks like it was cut yesterday....pretty good for a gun made in the mid 1930s.

Another thing of note about it. As Gil mentioned, he intends to replace the pad. I'm not sure with what yet but I can tell you that it is a 14" LOP to the uncut end of the stock right now. Always nice to find under a pad like that.

And when the wood gets a refinish, it is really going to pop.

The more I handle Manufance Ideals, the more I am comfortable with the idea that, like most of the big American concerns, while they had clearly defined grade levels, the company was in the business of making what the customer wanted. This gun of Gil's has better wood than a 302 should have and more extensive engraving, especially on the fences. To me it looks like they did a normal 302 then pimped it up with game scenes, the fences and a extra nice stick.

Good buy Gil! Ya dun good!

Very nice. Bobby

Gil, could you share the ease or difficulty with the import experience, and ballpark costs. Thanks, Mark

Its too bad many engravers never saw a live flying parsnip or a dog on point. Both in this case appear to have been taken from a comic strip. The rest of the engraving while quite simple is at least in good taste and pleasantly executed.

When I look at an Ideal it is the grace of the lines that run from the wrist to the rounded receiver that make it exotic looking. I think a POW grip significantly detracts from that.

None-the-less I bet its a grand gun to take to the field.

I bet the round body lends itself to a very pleasant carry in the field.

GLS, I have a Parker DH from 1891 (well abused "shooter grade") that has "flying turnips" on the floor plate.

Someday we'll have to chase woodcock in the SC Low Country and I'll show you REAL "flying turnips" - no, I won't shoot this 7# 4oz 12 bore at woodcock but I'll bring it along to show the "turnips".

BTW that's a nice looking Ideal.

It is super sexy minus the pad you already hate

Good gun Gil..and I think the dog is actually a Saint Bernard without the keg. What good wood there is in the stock...and 70mm chambers - so much for the mantra that French guns were all 65mm until after WWII. I think we've put that old wives tale to rest.

Thanks, all. Gene, the barrels are 70 cm. As it turns out, the chambers are 70 mm. 27.5" for the barrels; 2.75" for the chambers. The flats don't specify 65 or 70 leaving it up in the air if it came that way or it was modified. If the dog is a Saint Bernard, the absent keg must've contained Slim Fast. Gil

Nice one, Gil. Is that one going to outshoot Floyd's 25" SKB?

SRH

Stan, it's the Indian vs. arrow concept. Floyd could out shoot me with him wearing a blindfold regardless of any gun I shoot. Gil
P.S. I figured you'd like the chokes.

Engravers are artists, with varying degrees of talent. Also, the art can be and is often influenced by the world view, cultural milieu, and other eddies and currents that carry the artist and their clientele. Most of us have seen a similar interpretation of dogs and birds on other guns. I had one from England made in the 1880's with very similar execution of birds and dogs. Monet and the other impressionists are seldom scorned for their skill as painters, yet exquisite works by nonconformists of the day such as Alma Tadema and Bourgereau are sniffed at by collectors and critics.

What I found interesting and unique about Gils's gun when I first saw it was indeed the engraving. Way out of the box for La Manu, and as James pointed out, most likely a customer request. Granted, the execution of the engraving is not in line with typical MF work that I have seen. But it's really unusual, IMO "good enough," with a beautiful stick and according to James (who lives and dies by the barrels), near perfect tubes.

Well done Gil!

Mike

Yep, I've got a friend like that, too. He doesn't shoot competitive clays, but he can run a 25 straight at skeet, from the hip, in ......... 60 seconds flat , with one gun. I've seen him do it, timed with a stopwatch. He can also run a straight on skeet from the hip, one handed, while riding a bicycle. Needless to say, you don't want to be close to him on a dove field, or in a duck hole.

Yeah, the chokes will work. You ought to pattern that full barrel with a spreader to see what it does. Might be handy in the switchcane for a second shot.

SRH

The 302 was the entry level grade in the mid 30's.
Those guns did not have any engraving (or maybe some on the action balls and rib extention).
It seems like papy Mougeot (equivalent of Bubba) went to town on that one.
It certainly does not look factory at all.
All the same, it is a nice gun.
WC-

Chris Dawe worked his refinishing magic on it (including re-cut checkering to 28 lpi) and it will be here in a few weeks. All with more than a little help from my friends. Honey and smoke. Thanks fellas, you know who you are.





[URL=http://www.jpgbox.com/page/53876_800x600/]

This gun is sitting about 10 feet from where I type write now and it has turned out beautifully. Chris Dawe, as Gil noted, has really brought out the beauty in this wood. I thought it was going to be nice when we sent it to Chris for refinishing but this wood is just perfect. Not over the top for the rest of the gun but just where it should be to make one ogle. We found, thanks to Winhshooter16, an original MF buttplate in darn nice condition so the gun has really come together.

Each time I have anything to do with Chris Dawe I could not be more pleased with the quality of work. This chequering is waaayyy better than how it left the factory.

I like it so much I can barely bring myself to send it on it's way but we got the paperwork today and so, on to Gil it goes. Gil, if you decide it's not for you, send it back to me!

The Manufrance Team scores again.

Mike

Great gun.

Was the wood originally that light or did you specify that “natural” color before the refinish?

Dustin, Thanks. Perhaps James could answer that better than I as I have never laid hands or eyes on it. The photos on Naturabuy weren't the best, but just good enough to see some figure that was eye-catching. I left it up to Chris's judgment. Gil

Dustin, when we got the gun it was a little darker than that, but not a whole lot. I figured it had just darkened with age. When Chris got the old finish off, I know Chris and I had a discussion about that it was going to end up noticeably lighter and were we okay with that. With Gil's say-so, I just asked Chris to use his best judgment. The light is a little funny in the top photo. In the hand, the colour looks like the bottom three pics. Real honey and smoke. I love how it turned out.

“Honey & smoke”. Mike McIntosh really planted a seed there didn’t he!

Great looking gun, and if the customer likes the “honey & smoke”, that’s all that matters.

Still love it!

I’d just like to see it in its natural habitat. In Gil’s hands, chasing quail or woodcock.

Nicely done. I have heard there are a couple people in the industry that have figured out how to convert the safety to top tang! The Ideal is an itch I really want to scratch. Nice examples like yours are really hard to come by here. And by the way that engraving is sooo much better than Parker turnips!

Mark, I've spoken with one of the designers of the tang safety. The current set up defies snap shooting with the safety on. Muscle memory is hard to overcome. OMMV. Gil

I would love to see a safety and how it operates on one of these. I have heard they can be a deal breaker but they do not show up at all well in most photos - here I think I see it on the left side.

I love the guns, but the safety issue is concerning enough that I haven't wanted to stake money on any that I have seen on line.

Very nice gun!

I think it may have been Ed Muderlak who first coined the phrase "flying turnips" on some very special Grade-2 and 3 Parkers. Be that as it may, I looked up rutabagas but they were a tad too "orbish" so I guess turnips it is.

Brent:
"Safety" is on in the photo. The raised bump on a thin metal strip is slid forward locking both triggers. Another identical raised bump is on the other side in the same location. It is barely visible in the photo. To fire, the bump is pulled towards the rear, in a movement opposite of a tang safety. The opposite movement by shooters habituated on tang safeties can be frustrating on unexpected shooting opportunities. I've heard that some remove the safety and load only when move into position behind pointing dogs. Loading just before shooting is probably the safest tactic regardless of shooting either type of safety and a good habit to have. Gil

Gil thanks for that photo. It definitely looks like a challenge to use in the field. Hunting pheasants over any dog, but especially a retriever would not be ideal.

Even that odd angle photo shows how nice that gun really is.The checkering borders are especially nice. I would hate to inlet that trigger bar.

Thanks, Brent. The inletting is complex and is often destroyed by folks not familiar with its idiosyncratic pitfalls.
Back in the fall I found a set of tools designed specifically for the Ideal series. From my thread in November:
"Since acquiring a couple of Manufrance Ideals, I have been looking for the Manufrance tools specially made to strip down a gun. Below is my recent acquisition sitting atop Mournetas’s photograph of the three different types made. My version is the one made after 1920. The earlier two were made in 1887 and 1896. The paddle shaped piece is to lock the cocking lever in the up position so that the stock can be removed without destroying the not quite ace of spades shaped inletting on top of the stock. All pieces fit inside the boxwood handle which has a metal slot on the face that accommodates the turnscrews and spanner tools. Gil"

I saw those tools when you posted them before. Amazing what you can scrounge up these days. I would not have guess that special tools were required to take one apart, but they are so unusual looking that it is hard to guess what the process involves. I have never actually seen a Manufrance in person. Maybe one day.

Ted and I were discussing this rather interesting, though damaged gun yesterday. I had not heard of "dispersal barrels" before. https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__...STING_HIGH_QUAL

Gil:
i notice the checkering on your gun is not the skipline style i am familiar with on most MF. my ideal does have skipline style and i suspect your gun is of the same era (mid-late 1930's).

your original photos don't show checkering - so i'm curious if it was restored as original, or changed to conventional checkering during the renovation.

i don't particularly like the skipline, and would certainly like to have the "missing lines" filled in. your checkering pattern is quite handsome - as is the gun....
tom

The seller of the Ideal, is proposing that the dispersal barrel would also work well with ball or slugs.

I can assure you, this would not be the case. It is for birdshot, only. The flats are clearly marked “choke” and “raye”, but, I can’t make out much more than that. I would expect that the mark “non pour la balle” appears somewhere on both tubes,

I don’t typically deal with auction houses.

Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Tom, thanks.
The checkering was badly worn and Chris Dawe of Newfoundland was given the go ahead to recut at 28 lpi. Skipline is also known as "basketweave" checkering and I find it interesting. Paradox barrels are the ones with partially rifled choke area, and as Ted mentions, were built for dispersal of lead shot, not for ball, for close in shots of woodcock and rabbits. The engraving of the Morphy gun is quite nice but one would have to live with the other issues chief of which is the "fairly sharp dent" in one barrel 10" from breech. This is in a high pressure area and I question if it could be safely remedied. Gil

Gil got his Ideal through me as have a few other members here. I have my own Ideal in 12 gauge. Originally mine had the skipline chequering done to, as near as we could figure out, 38 lpi. It was crazy fine. So fine as to be useless.

In discussions with my smith, and knowing I would be hunting the gun, when the wood was refinished we went to a standard style of chequering with 28 LPI. I know full well it's not original but it works better.

When we were discussing Gil's gun, my experience with my own highly influenced Chris's and my recommendation to Gil. These aren't collector guns....they are higher grade shooters.

Brent, as far as the safety goes, any approach is a compromise. I don't use the safety. Ever. I hunt with the gun open with two shells in the chambers and close the gun on the rise. I typically hunt the gun on open plains, when not in close quarters with other hunters and dogs. It's the best approach I have been able to come up with. I have often hunted with it in the company of another Ideal owner, so we are both very cognizant of the safety issue.

It also helps, I suppose, that I was taught to shoot by my "old school" father. Who taught me that it was foolish to ever depend on or expect a safety to be that with saves you from your own stupidity. So I have done my best, my whole life, to handle guns as though there was no safety.

You or Ted may have caught it but this gun on auction at Morphy's has the typical damage around the tang that indicates stock removal by someone who didn't know what they were doing.....never mind the through bolt.

Between the tang damage, the through bolt and the wood extension, that gun needs a restock. Too bad because I have an extra set of 12 gauge barrels in perfect condition that might have come in handy, it it could be had for the $750 opening bid. Also, as a grade 5, it has to be pre 1931.

Even in France the dispersal barrels are quite rare. Too bad.

A Dispersal & a Paradox barrel are not the same things. Paradox, as I recall, was a trademark used by Westly Richards for their "Ball Guns" with rifled chokes. They could also shoot shot but patterns were mostly at least as open as an I/C.

I have no idea IF the MF dispersal choke would be suitable fr use as a ball gun or not, perhaps so, perhaps not. Before making a decision I would want a lot more input than Ted's Negative Bias on any gun which is not a Darne.

I highly suspect the Paradox type guns have a rather thick barrel wall at the choke, the MF Dispersal likely does not which would be the item most likely to condemn it for use with a ball.
.

question on the morphy gun, what is the #731 on the action flats? sn is visible and stated as 60782...

second more general question re: ideals...when did the change occur in the lugs and floorplate? this gun has both lugs flush with floorplate, my late 30's gun and the subject gun in this thread have the lugs recessed and not protruding through the floorplate. i have never seen any time period reference to establish a judgement upon - have wondered if the change was concurrent with the model numbering changes in the early 30's.

the morphy gun is listed as 1935, but that disagrees with two things i believe to be correct; the 5S style model numbers were replaced in 1932 (?) with the later three digit type, and argo provided a listing of ideal serial numbers in august 2018 that clearly shows 1928 as the correct year of production.
tom

It was NOT Manufrance that machined barrels for Canons Raye-it was a freestanding Father and Son business that did that for the trade. I have been in the shop, and watched the US manufactured Cincinnati lathe with the step attachment that does that operation.

My only problem with an Ideal is I can’t use one. They are a fine gun, novel in design, and I have pointed that out many times here. Just too far out of MY wheelhouse.
I also own other designs of gun, have noted that previously, and pointed out, many, many times that a Darne is not for everyone.

A comment that notes I only care for one design of gun is pure ignorance.

I have been involved in the order and production of Darne slug guns, which, were also built to handle bird shot. They were not built with raye barrels, but, were regulated to put rifled slugs about 2-3” apart at 55 yards. The chokes were as the customer specified, but, usually IC and MOD were specified. The customer also had to specify what slugs he planed on using. The gun would be regulated with them.

Raye barrels were only for the dispersal of birdshot. No matter what gun they were ordered on. And, they are found in many different types of French guns, often labeled as “Becassiers” or, woodcock models.
Raye barrels were available on any grade Darne I imported. I never had a customer ask for one, and never sold a new Raye barreled gun.

Best,
Ted

I assume the rifling twists, but at what rate and how deep is the rifling?

I have shot and shot at a lot of LBJs (little brown jobs (birds)) with .22 shot in rifled barrels, and I have patterned some varieties of .22 shotshells. I can say rifling really tears up patterns relative to what is possible with smooth bores, so I am interested to hear more about these raye barrels.

IMHO you are correct in noting that this gun is from the 1920's and for the reasons you stated.

Re the floor plate. The solid floorplate is typically added to guns of a higher grade and/or ejector guns of any grade. I have looked at 100's of Ideals in the last 10 years. I have never seen an ejector gun, typically about 10% of what comes up for sale in France, that does not have the solid floor plate.

Extractor guns usually, but not exclusively, have the through lumps. That's probably because higher grade guns were typically ordered with ejectors. But, as Gil's gun shows, there are a few extractor guns floating around with the solid floor plate. Not actually solid, just really finely fitted pieces filling the holes. Seams often disguised by engraving.

Going to dig out my Mournatas book tomorrow and see what he says about the dispersal barrels.

I have a 20 grade 1 and a 12 grade 6 both made in 1926 and have the rectangular hole in the floor plate. I have not used them much yet. I have tried leaving the barrels open while hunting (with other guns) and invariably I forget and the shells wind up on the ground. I wonder if some scotch tape would work.

I vaguely recall someone telling me or my reading it here that if you pull back the under lever the gun cannot fire. I have not tried it. Anyone know if that rumor is true? and whether it is viable for upland hunting?

Miller,

Paradox was the trade-mark for the Holland and Holland ball and shot guns. WR used Explora (12 gauge) and Fauneta (20 gauge) ball and shot guns.

Ken

Builder, is your grade 6 an extractor gun?

Yes, it is an extractor gun and so is the 20g. I think I sent you pictures.

Wish someone would answer regarding the hunting ideas.

My Ideals are sensitive to feathers, leaves, etc. stuck between the barrel flats and action flat. The guns will lock up but with the trash, when fired the strike is weak and there'll be intermittent FTF until the the trash is cleared out. It doesn't take much to cause issues. I've had the same occur with A&D shotguns of English and Japanese origins. Moving through thick cover while woodcocking with the barrels broken open has invited the problem. It's all in the carry to prevent shells from falling out while walking with the gun open and shells in the chamber. Stock over the shoulder with barrels down and gripped keeps them in. It is better, and safer, to not load until a shot is imminent. You'll miss unexpected opportunities, but in the name of safety, that's a small price to pay. Carrying a roll of Scotch Tape may cause more problems than it's worth. Gil

I have a little 20 Ideal. I overcome the safety issue by using it when I am hunting alone. Gun loaded, closed and safety off. The grouse and the dog didn't care a bit.

I make some sloppy roll crimps that can be pretty snug in the chamber. However, I would worry about the wear on the hinge pin if carrying while open. Tried it once and did not like it at all.

I won't carry loaded, closed, and safety off. My dog is a big part of why, and I like a back up to just muzzle control.

You mean holding the lever in the release position? Don't think that is a viable solution. At least on my ejector, the spring is way too stiff to comfortably be held open.

I would enjoy using my Ideals for hunting and I hunt with friends and dogs. Muzzle control is the most important safety technique however falling is always a consideration and that is when a safety is most important. Badger holes and underbrush pose a serious fall risk in South Dakota where I pheasant hunt (wild birds only). There is no time to fool with that safety. I think I will have to use the Ideals for clays.

I have two Ideals, both are 12 gauge. The grades are No 2 and a No 3, the only real difference between them is the lock up at the dolls head. On the 3 something comes up to grab the dolls head in the lock up, it isn't there on the 2. Both guns have straight stocks, sunken ribs and similar engraving.

Lunette style trigger guard or regular style trigger guard?

I do not seem to have much problem with my Ideal safety. Except for the fact it works backwards it is easy for me. Plus it is ambidextrous...Geo

Darne safety on my R-10, on the other hand is a pain, while my V-19 works about like a greener sidesafety( only backwards).

Ideal ambidextrous safety below:

R10?

Best,
Ted

Builder, I did an "armed" walk in the quail woods today before the rain ran me out. I carried my Ithaca SKB 20 with shells in the chambers breach open with my left hand and thumb over shells. Fairly easy to do. It's when you forget you have shells in the chamber and handle the gun with muzzle up that they fall out. One advantage of the Ideal is that the safety is not automatic. If you have shells in chambers, the only movements you make are closure, shouldering, swinging and shooting. Adding another step after closure and mounting, sliding the safety off after it automatically goes "on" can slip past you. It has gummed me up more than once after closing the action on an unexpected shot. Gil

From Le fusil de chasse "Ideal" by Jean-Claude Mournetas:
Brass encased ball for left barrel which has rifling and a barrel reducer insert for the smooth bored right barrel and 8 mm bullet. There's some text I hope to have translated. Gil

Replying to Canvasback...Both of mine are regular triggers. My lower grade #2 gun has a carved ivory bead and the #3 just has a brass bead. Both have nice wood with normal checkering and the retractable sling

Geo that is very neat

Argo44 kindly translated a couple of pages of Mournetas's book that dealt with the partial rifling of one barrel of the Ideal and a rare example of both barrels being partially rifled. Thanks, Gene:
"That will be the chokes. These came directly from a English discovery which consisted of modifying the profile of the end of the bore of the barrel. These were a form of constricting the diameter of the bore achieved artificially by laying a (small) tube of rifled steel in the interior of the barrel (at the muzzle) naturally leaving a supression at the moment of the casting of the barrel

In the case of l’IDEAL, is was thus developed barrels naturally choke-bored and those artifically choke-bored. It is quite easy to detect with the eye which type of choke an IDEAL is equiped with in the first models. In effect the black powder, by its corrosiveness, left a tiny circular streak in the bore of the barrel at the point of the junction with the monobloc.

There exists yet another combination of choke systems which consists of putting fine stripes on the tapering of the choke on the rounded edges. This gives to the interior of the mouth of the barrel the aspect in miniature of a crinkled tapered tube. This process, also of English origin, is called rifling. It gives surprising results in the the long range of the pellets.

Nevertheless, it is very rare to find an IDEAL so equipped because on one part the fabrication was complicated and thus onerous and, on the other part, the fouling by black powder posed a problem. This led them rapidly to abandon the concept. To my knowledge no long gun of this type has been made by the Manufacturer since the beginning of the century. But, before closing this paragraph, it’s worth noting that certain barrels, meant for firing ball, were rifled from the exit of the chamber, along the entire length of the barrel. What happiness for a collecter to come upon such a rarity.

The choke initially seen on the barrel of the IDEAL corresponded to a constriction equivalent to that of one caliber. As it is evident that shooting during a hunt doesn’t take place at a constant distance, it was necessary to adapt the chokes according to the ground and thus also was born the half-choke (constriction by a half caliber)

Before the great war, the IDEAL generally carried an open smoothbore barrel on the right and a choke-bored one on the left for barrels 74 cm in length. Bores with half choke on right and full choke on the left on barrels from 65-70 cm. Except for special orders of course. For pigeon shooting models, full choke on both sides was the norm.

Thereafter, that excelent compromise, half-choke on the right and full-choke on the left were kept on all the classic series IDEALs. (see the tables on page 34).

There is another particularity which we are going to find on the barrels of the IDEAL. The (shallow) rifling. For the dispersion of shot when firing at a short distance and for the shooting of ball, a number of IDEAL came, on special order, with the right barrel (unchoked) rifled “SUPRA” beginning in the 1920’s. Previously, on certain models such as the COLONIAL IDEAL, only one length of some 8 cm was striated (rifled) at the beginning of the barrel. This assured the rotation of the ball without perturbing in the slightest the smaller shot. The compromise was a good one and it made its mark abroad to the point that certain of the classic series can be seen with the right barrel provided with such rifling. Such a rarity."

Gil,
I’ve only seen a few rifled barrels on French guns. I never saw pumpkin ball type slugs in France, notable to me because every gun proofed in France with a modified or tighter choke has a warning dutifully stamped on the flats, warning against their use.
Foster type slugs were all I saw, Brenneke, Winchester, Federal and Rotweil were the brands I saw. French proof, high as it is, allowed for use of American standard ammunition.
Every gun shop had a nice selection of slugs, the French had plenty of pigs that needed to be killed, but, they were short on most everything else except, maybe, ducks. They were really short on places to hunt. The damage to a crummy little French car after it hit a 500 lb wild pig was immense, and people often got hurt. Every shop also had a few Remington 870 Express models, usually with a slug barrel, or two barrels, and red dot sight systems or low powered scopes for same. 12 and 20 gauge, just like here. The guys who hunted pigs were welcome everywhere, the pigs seemed like a hell of a nuisance.
I would guess that the 870 was the most popular gun in the mid 1990s in France. None of the gunmakers was happy about it, but, it was reality. None of the gunmakers I met were regulars at bird hunting, sometimes going years between treasured invites from friends or acquaintances who had the means. Woodcock seemed to be what everybody wanted to hunt. But, few people needed a Raye barrel to just dream about woodcock they were never going to see, much less hunt.

Best,
Ted

Ted, it seems feral or wild hogs are a menace wherever they exist.
Are the French communal hunting association members given access to hunting lands or are they just social groups of like-minded individuals?  Here are a few hat pins from various associations.  Best,
Gil

with some misgivings i have bid on and bought the morphy gun, the barrel dent is my main concern....but it wouldn't be the first time i've overstepped the bounds of good judgement.

i can live with the stock extension, or if the length is good for me, replace it with a .600 old english. if the through bolt has stabilized the split in the wrist (the crack looks nice and tight), i enjoy refinishing wood. the telltale damage around the top tang is not as bad as usual and could be fairly concealed with a small amount of acraglass if the color were carefully matched.

wish that i could have the opportunities to see and handle as many of these guns as you and canvasback do. i can count all i've ever handled on my fingers....with one hand still in my pocket. this one will be my third; a decrepit 16 grade 1 at a 1980's dallas gun show (which i promptly sold), a 1938-9 16 #320 that i stumbled upon on gunbroker a few years back, and now a roll of the dice on this gun.
best regards,
tom

Gil,
Land access is a big deal in France. A farmer who might pay you to shoot pigs likely wouldn’t consider letting you hunt birds or ducks on his ground. Birds, in this context, almost always means the big European woodcock. There are pheasants, nobody seemed to talk much about them.
I have no idea how the associations work. Perhaps they pool resources and lease land for the members. I would guess it is a little bit of everything, maybe up to even traveling to other countries to hunt under the umbrella of your club.
We have it better, here. I always wondered who the home team guys in France were, that kept the gunmakers busy enough to make a living building double guns. A lot of them were sold right in country.

Best,
Ted

"Not For Ball' & etc originated from the fact many shotguns, from muzzleloader days into early breech-loaders were habitually used with round balls for larger game. It had been common practice to use a close-fitting ball to the bore of the gun for better accuracy. With the common acceptance of choke boring in the breech-loaders, a ball sized closely to the bore would obviously play havoc with the choke.

By at least 1910 W W Greener wrote that even guns marked Not for Ball could be safely & effectively fired with a solid ball "Provided" a small enough ball was used to pass through the choke. Thus if a nominal 0.729 12 gauge was given a full choke down to about 0.690" choke then the ball had to be smaller than 0.690" in diameter. A commonly used 0.719" ball would wreck the muzzle end of the barrel.

He further stated this was the reason the British proof houses changed their markings from "Not for Ball" to the simple word "Choke".

That's been at least 110 years ago, Weird that so many folks Still Haven't Caught On.

Some folks left well enough alone, I guess. The same folks never found themselves outside of the Brussels Convention with the works of their proof house, either.

Best,
Ted

thought i would add this to the discussion re: rifled barrels on french guns; this morning there was a listing for a mf robust on guns international, #101390417. it is a fully rifled barrel rather than the raye type. it has the first "legible" photo of such a barrel i have ever seen...

i have taken delivery of the morphy gun on 4 march. general condition was actually better than the photos & description led me to expect. haven't had a chance to measure wall thicknesses, but my bore gauge says .722-3 with 40 thou constriction on left,(proofed at 18.3) and....

on the right tube, i was rather surprised. the dent described in the auction catalog is at 3:00 o'clock just above the tip of the forearm. it is about 9.85" to 10.6" from breech (in line with the bore), and easily visible inside the tube, but not as "sharp" as description might lead one to expect.

the surprise is the fact this tube is shallowly rifled from chamber to muzzle - not the partial rifling near the muzzle that i was expecting. it conforms with argo's translation of the mourneta's book.

my bore gauge shows .727-8 in the grooves from one end to the other...no choke. its not so easy to stay on top of the lands, but a quick stab seems to indicate about .716. proofed at 18.2 on flats...

so the difference of .11-12 thou, divided by two, would yield 5 or 6 thou depth in the rifling. this is quite evidently an example of the gun in the photo provided above. and it is obviously intended for use with properly sized solid projectile.

best regards,
tom

Is there twist to the rifling? If so, can you estimate how much?

I'm still waiting on my Morphy's gun from that auction.

it's unlike a rifle, with grooves deep enough to turn a tight fitted patch or brush, and let you gauge the distance required to complete a revolution.

i can't reliably stay in the grooves, so am reduced to looking through the bore. as best i can tell there is a bit over 1/2 of a revolution in the length of the bore (70cm) - certainly no more than 3/4.