Did anyone bid on this? Any thoughts on the gun?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/703281974

19 bids so far...

I suppose I should clarify. I won this auction. I just wondered if any of my opposing bidders happened to be a member. I also wonder what everyone thinks of it.

I like it...but that was my high limit. Just happened to work out.

"Chokes unknown, it is marked on the barrel flats but the way it's marked didn't make sense to me."

The marks probably include the chamber length; if 70mm you're in luck.
Siemens-Martin steel was good stuff.

Once you have the gun please post detailed images and we may be able to give you more information. The lettre annale appears to be a lower case 'i' which would be 1930.

Thanks Drew. The pictures are poor, but I did notice the chambers were marked with the "sideways omega", which if I'm not mistaken makes its post-1924 anyways. I have requested a clear picture of the barrel flats so we'll see what additional information that provides.

He just sent me the pictures. Sadly, it appears the chambers are 65mm. Not that I couldn't just use RSTs or Polywad, but it would have been easier with 70mm chambers...

Please have a double gun specialist check and clean the gun before use. If the chambers have been lengthened, very careful measurements of the wall thickness at the end of the chamber and forcing cone need to be taken.
The bore in mm over muzzle dimension is likely just forward of the flats, but may well have changed since 1930.
Hope the gun works out for you.

Dr. Drew and others...not to "jump the shark" but it seems to me that a lot of French guns I've been watching are advertised as having chambers lengthened from 65mm (2 1/2) to 70mm 2 3/4. French guns are pretty robust... But if they haven't been reproofed...and almost none of them have over here that I know of..how much of a problem is this? How should they be checked out? If you buy them and they aren't safe, you're pretty much..(what was that old military saying-SOL?).

My thoughts are here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

"Inexpert" chamber lengthening of small bore or light British 12b game guns may create inadequate wall thickness where pressure is highest. In heavy barreled turn-of-the-century U.S. maker 12g doubles, the angle of the forcing cone is usually greater than the taper of the exterior of the barrel, so it is not uncommon that the forcing cone WT is the same or greater than the end of the chamber WT.

A 16g Smith with chamber lengthened to 2 7/8". Wall thickness at the end of the chamber was .096" and I suspect SuperX Magnums were involved

I don't think the previous owner of that great little gun had enough time away from hunting to send it to a gunsmith for barrel work. My guess is that it is still 65MM.

Gene,
French proof, by law, was always the highest in Europe. While I'd always advise an accurate measurement by a GOOD gunsmith (not Bubba, the 870 mechanic down the street) it would be an unusual French gun with lengthened chambers that would be un-usable with ammunition that was a least in the vicinity of the pressure it was originaly designed to use.
Anecdotal story: When I was in St. Etienne, I had an R10 restocked to fit me. Someone stateside had decided it needed it's chokes relieved, and the gun had suffered something that left pimple bulges in the left tube. Some genius also decided to backbore the tubes. These are heavy barrels, and the thinnest area the maker could find was still .060, and most, was much closer to .090.
They assured me it was safe to use as is. I have used it, even with the Federal "Pheasants Forever" loading of 1 1/4oz of fives for late season roosters here in MN. I have guns that typically get the nod over the Darne for that work these days, mostly because the Darne has no and little choke left in the tubes, but, I wouldn't think twice about it, if the situation called for it.

No problems to report, save the little guy does let you know, in no uncertain terms, when one of those rounds has gone off in the gun. I don't notice recoil when shooting in cold blood, however.

Measure, first. But, French guns, especially, will usually be OK.

Best,
Ted

I measure every gun I buy these days. Both barrel wall thickness and chokes. After 75-100 plus years use and abuse you never know what you will find. Plus my peace of mind improves when I know the barrels are in good shape. Others use the heavy load with a gun tied to a tire proof system which I find highly suspect.

I have a Baker which has some of the thickest barrels on any double I own. Thinnest area is over .065 and they are choked .055 on both barrels. Stout does not begin to describe it. It looks like a main tank battle gun. If I did not measure them I would never have guessed how thick the barrels are. It is a great heavy water fowl gun if only I lived back off the Chesapeake bay. Soon, soon.

Pictures of the flats from the seller:

They look like pretty standard Belgian proofs to me...

20:65, and otherwise looking good. While one can only tell for sure through an in-hand inspection, I'd say you got a good deal, FSJR. Especially considering the amount and quality of the engraving.

Yes, I'll post more pictures when it comes in. It appears to me that the barrels are marked both 16.0 and 15.9. I'm guessing 16.0 is the diameter of the bore and 15.9 is the choke? Following that chain of logic I'm looking at skeet or cylinder choked barrels? Am I correct in this thinking?

If that's the case, it would make a real nice woodcock gun...

I'd hazard that the 16.0 and 15.9 are the actual bores (Âme du canon) of the two barrels...each slightly different...and have nothing to do with chokes. At least that would be the case with a Saint Etienne gun. 20 gauge.

I picked up this Belgian 20 today. Two interesting developments and on slightly disappointing one. We'll start with the disappointment...It has a very slight side to side looseness. This was not mentioned in the auction. I'm going to contact the seller and see what his thoughts are on the subject. The first interesting thing as that it weighs 5.5 lbs with 27.5" barrels. That is a pure joy to any woodcock or grouse hunter. The second interesting thing is that the forend seems to have a very interesting mechanism just behind the ejector "hammers" (for lack of a more knowledgeable word). I noticed that when I press the top lever to the right the barrels seem to fall open even when cocked. When the triggers are depressed and the action is opened, the ejectors fire and then the gun seems to require a bit of a hard pressure curve to close the gun at first, then it seems to snap shut quickly. Could this be a cock on close assisted opening mechanism? It feels different than most of my other guns.

I will try to get some pictures of the gun when I have a bit more time. I just thought I should post an update.

I am having a bit of trouble with my old worn out eyes reading the diameters. Is one barrel marked 16.o & the other 15.9 or does each barrel carry both diameter markings. If the former then the mark indicates the dia of that particular barrel & it was choked to at least .2mm (about .008") but could well be considerably more.
If the later then the smaller number would indicate bore dia at provisional proof & the larger the bore size after final finishing for definitive proof. Choke would be same as above.
Earlier Belgian proof did indicate both bore & choke diameters but this had been discontinued.
Miller/TN

Miller,

One barrel shows "16.0 CHOKE 15.9" and the other barrel merely states "CHOKE 15.9"

Does anyone have any thoughts on the strange mechanism behind the ejector "hammers" on the forend? It slides forward and back.

Additionally, I have never seen this before, but in the picture of the trigger/trigger guard, you can see a small square piece of metal protruding from under the trigger guard. When I apply the safety on and off, I can see it rotate slightly so I assume it is somehow related to the safety, but it seems so strange!

It is your ejector cocking slide. On closing the slide abuts against the knuckle step and pushed the ejector tumblers back into full cock. This system is supposed to prevent cocking via the breech face and thus saves wear and tear on the face.

As you noticed though it has a rather hard feel at the start of closing and a sudden snap home once the tumblers have gone into full cock.

My SXS boxlock is Italian and has the same system. Has been trouble free for 35 years.

My take on this is the barrel with 2 numbers had its bore enlarged by that 0.1 mm in finishing, the other did not. As .1 mm is about .004" this would be the enlargement. I have serious doubts this gun left the factory with 0.0/0.1 mm chokes, especially as the Belgian proof house did not normally mark Choke unless the bore had at least 0.2 mm (about .008") of choke.
I believe my original assessment is still correct & this gun left the factory with at least 0.008" of choke could be much more.
Miller/TN

Miller,

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation. I had never seen that mechanism before on any of my other guns...

fallschirmjaeger, I have a Belgian gun very similar to yours, also a 20ga. It was proofed in 1930. It has the same mechanisms as your for the ejectors and safety. I have shot the gun A LOT at clays and quail and it has given me no trouble over the years.

I hope you enjoy you're new gun as much.----Matt

Thank you Matt...This is one tiny svelte double.