Who will be first to tell us about the alledged parker damascus gun blow up at the place in Md last week end? The information I have is 3 rd hand. It would be good to know the details from those that were there. What gives, nothing been posted that I've seen? May be Drew and other damascus men will want to get on this one.?

It definitely happened, I saw the evidence. Scuttle-butt was that it was inappropriate nitro cartridges in a very old gun but I do not know the facts.
No one hurt, thank goodness, just hurt pride and one more lovely old gun gone to heaven.

No mention thereof on the PGCA site.
If anyone knows the person involved, please let him know I would be most interested in evaluating the barrel remains gratis if he would contact me at revdoc2@cox.net
Also ask him to retain the remaining shells from the box he was using.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

How can somebody still not know what pressure loads are safe for a Damascus gun these days?

Parts have to come from somwwhere.

Interesting sense of humor Brian.

From the pictures I saw I am of the opinion there was an obstruction just forward of the chamber causing the side of the chamber to blow out.

In recent catastrophic failures nearly identical to this one it has been determined to have been caused by a barrel obstruction.

Sorry - duplicate post.

We would very much like to see the pictures

THIS IS NOT THE GUN IN QUESTION, but a ring bulge at the forcing cone would be diagnostic of an obstruction.



Asymmetric bulge related to the addition thickness of the brazed barrel flats and support of the right barrel



Was the gun a 10g being shot with Federal hulls? Courtesy of Frank Srebro

Help me see the 'ring bulge' there Drew.

I do see the asymmetry, but I see an overload blown chamber.

Was this a 20/12?

That's the only thing I can imagine...

Looks very similar to the last photos of a damascus blow-out that i saw.
That looks quite spectacular. And not in a good way. It is good to hear that the shooter was not harmed.

A lot of speculation. Anyone remember the overloads (30K psi +) that Sherman Bell fed a Damascus Parker before it blew? Unless there was a serious issue with the structural integrity of that gun before the accident, I have trouble believing that it could be attributed to only the load.

Thank you Toby and 16SXS to confirm this. Again from 3 rd. hand report a 12 ga. and a compresson form commercial load. the whole side of chamber blew out from the breach to frontof hinge pin. Several known people there and the shooter tho not hurt badly was stunned for a period. No posts so far on the parker site? We never here much of damascus failurse and it always seem blamed ion barrel obstructions before experts evaluete.

I have heard multiple reports of obstruction blow ups being related to the new Winchester AA hulls. The thought has been the baseplate detached from the hull and lodged in the bore. Next shell goes off and the blow up occurs. For that slight risk I have not loaded any of the current AAs. That and the fact I have two fifty five gallon drums of the old ones. Just wish they were 16 ga compression formed hulls.

The AA base wad issue was real. It's been fixed in current production shells. We learned that loaders that do not use a primer seating ram from the inside of the shell such as MEC does could move the base wad while seating the primer. A very bad thing. I've loaded many thousands of two piece AA hulls including the initial run on MEC equipment with no issues. This possibility of a moving base wad exists with any shell that incorporates one. It's one reason I refuse to use hydraulic powered loaders. I want that feedback from the press to my human 'force monitor'.

The general rule is that a chamber blowout is caused by excessive load, and that a burst barrel further up is caused by obstruction. The obstruction leaves a 'ring' of some sort.

Small images on a thread inadequately illustrate what is usually very apparent on direct inspection, but

Chamber blow out without a ring bulge. Note no rib lifting



Another chamber blow out without a ring bulge; very localized rib lifting



Chamber blow out WITH a ring bulge, and rib lifting



I only play a metallurgist on DoubleGun but:

SEM of the fracture edges in an obstructional burst show elastic deformation with ultimate cleavage.
Over-pressure burst show little elastic deformation with predominate cleavage.

"The general rule is that a chamber blowout is caused by excessive load, and that a burst barrel further up is caused by obstruction. The obstruction leaves a 'ring' of some sort."

That was Sir Gerald's position. Today however ANY burst, ANYWHERE is likely from "inexpert" chamber or barrel work

Images of the OPs referenced blow up will be posted shortly

The shells were factory Remington STS Sporting reported to be 1275 fps, but that fps not listed here. Possibly the 1 oz. Nitro at 1290 fps?
https://images.remington-catalog.com/5689a23e991d5

THIS is the gun. Did the best I could to enhance the images.









I would of course defer to someone with barrel in hand, but do not definitely see a ring bulge. The top rib extension is gone but possibly just from the burst. The destruction of the FE and broken stock suggest MUCH more recoil than one would expect from a properly loaded factory round ie. almost something like this Citori



A formal Metallurgical Failure Analysis would be most interesting

What is the section of threaded screw hole between the barrels under the missing top short rib? Did someone attempt to repair a loose rib with a screw instead of soldering? As I recall both barrels that blew up at 29,000 to 30,000 psi in Sherman Bell's Parker test gun ruptured where the barrels had thin spots from extractor or extractor retaining screw holes.

Was he able to finish the round with the left barrel?

Keith: Parker used a screw/solder to attach the doll's head top rib extension.
This is interesting; a damascus rib and steel extension.
Anyway - the screw head could be hidden with engraving, but if not can usually be seen

Ah, so that's what that is. I sometimes see a circular area on the extension, that must be it.

Call me a nut, but when you blow up the picture, it looks like the screw penetrated the tube. Possibly not all the way, but it could have weakened the tube.

Lot's of Damascus sets have steel extensions.

Regards
Ken

I didn't know that Parker used a screw in that location. The fracture happening across that screw hole is mighty suspicious, but I'm sure it would take more than a standard factory load to cause a failure at that point. Double charge perhaps?

I have seen amateur repairs using screws into the ribs, and have a Lefever that has a long machine screw that ran through the forearm loop and into the top rib. I don't care to shoot it or sell it until I can remove the rib to see if the drill or tap cut into the barrels at a point uncomfortably close to the forcing cones.

Having a few sets of Parker barrels on hand at the moment, I can see no reason for that threaded hole.

EDIT: The low s/n hammergun barrel set I have on hand do not have an extension.

I discovered the screw after the doll's head extension of a damascus GH dropped at my feet on Station 7 out at Ben Avery
Fortunately, Dan Lammers was able to reaffix without a full rib relay.
Not sure when Parker started the doll's head.

Not without a change of underwear.

Just using a calibrated eyeball, it appears the WT on the newly blown Parker is at least .100 if not .120 at the end of the chamber. Be interesting to see what it really is. Food for thought.

Thanks for the pictures Doc Drew.

The barrel thickness at the chamber by the 'screw' appears to be thin and darker as opposed to the bright appearance of new damage. The primer of the shell looks flattened, but not suspicious of extreme high pressure. Glad everyone was okay.

Ah, Ben Avery (previously named 'Black Canyon') shooting range. I have spent thousands of hours there. When I last visited, I didn't recognize the place.

Had a look at most of the Parker barrel sets I have on hand. Can only see the 'circle' on one set. (Barrel Set #1 in my for sale listing) All of the rest are very effectively concealed by the rib matting. Learn something new every day.

I would think one should use specialty low pressure shells from RST in shotgun like this. I would never guess modern target loads would be good substitute to use in gun designed when black power shells were in common use.

+1

I doubt that load would be the first choice for most of us.

Even so, I'd not expect this sort of failure without the gun giving some warning first.

Damascus has shown a fair amount of ductility in tests and not a pattern of sudden brittle fractures.

Is it just me or does this particular barrel show some pretty grainy material?

Count me out also.
However:

Parker Brothers 1893 Catalogue
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”

c. 1900: The “standard” U.S. 12 gauge Field and Inanimate Target load was 1 1/4 oz. shot with 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (1220 fps) of Bulk Smokeless in a 2 5/8” or 2 3/4” case, with a modern transducer pressure of 8000 - 9500 psi.
Live Bird loads were usually 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless Powder with a pressure of about 11,750 psi (modern SAAMI max. limit is 11,500 psi)


Metal embrittlement has a “rock-candy” appearance, but it is impossible to tell from that image.

So was it the load or the metal in the barrel? Or both?

No, it looks typical for a blown chamber, to me. I have a close friend who blew the chamber out on a Charles Boswell damascus gun years ago. He claims an obstruction caused it because he was using reloads which were housed in later AA hulls, which are supposedly subject to base wad separation. However, the loads he used were way above recommended, with Unique and as mentioned, compression formed hulls. I warned him not to use that load, that it was the wrong powder and the wrong hull. He ignored me and the result was a ruined gun, but thankfully no injuries.

There was/is no ring bulge which would indicate an obstruction, and in my mind I know the cause was an improper load. It looks entirely typical for a blown damascus chamber, to me.

SRH

You mean to tell me that in 1900 they were shooting "standard" shells that developed up to 9500 psi of chamber pressure? Or is that CUP or LUP recorded chamber pressure that was converted to psi?

All here just for the reading
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

What could they have been thinking?

Please tell me this isn't the one that was just posted on Facebook as being handed down to him on the fox collectors site?

I just checked my Parker EH 10 gauge for the presence of that screw though the short top rib section. I could not detect any screw, or even a joint indicating a 2 piece rib. Also, the rib over the chambers is matted which would hide this screw if present. Of course, mine is a hammerless gun.

I also took another look at Sherman Bell's "Finding Out For Myself- part II" in the Winter 1999 issue 4 of Double Gun Journal. On page 32, there are pics of the ruptured barrels. On pages 34 and 36, Bell describes what he found in his post-mortem. He seems to think the ruptures originated in the thinner area between the chambers, and mentions a screw that retains the extractor and runs upward between the barrels and ends just under the short rib extension. Both chambers peeled open, but the ruptured area did not break totally free of the barrels as this one did. However, the condition of the shells looked much worse and the primers were blown out in the nuclear loads he used which developed over 29,000 and 31,000 psi respectively. I hope we can get a better look at the damage and maybe learn what actually happened. Of course, all Damascus is not created equal, and the tubes in this old hammer gun may have been structurally inferior to the pitted tubes Bell sacrificed.

Looks like too much pressure and not an obstruction too me. It seems that screw hole was the thin spot that initiated the failure. If shooting the factory Remington Nitro 27 handicap loads shown, then that's too hot for an old gun. Considering the destruction shown, maybe they were reloads. I hope we find out.

The RST tent was right there selling proper loads. I hope he regrets saving a few bucks on shells.

Anytime you shoot a Damascus barreled gun 100 years plus old you're putting your life or limb at risk....

Some may get some hidden adrenaline rush while others may harbor deep suicidal thoughts ?

Thanks Dr. Drew for that information. I feel a lot better that my 80 year old Nitro Special was built with these loads developing that kind of chamber pressure were available.

Any time you get in a car or on an airplane you are putting your life at risk.....

The question is how much risk and is the risk worth the reward? It has nothing to do with suicidal thoughts or hidden adrenaline rush.

jOe, are you looking for the nanny state to protect us all?

Yes, just like going to bed there is remote possibility of not waking up again.
The goal is good risk management. When shooting old guns they should be in sound mechanical order and low pressure ammo must be used at all times. We are lucky to have company like RST to provide such shell for us.

JOe, you just have to share state of mind with your ancestors when they stood in row opposite of men shooting lead round balls into their ranks. This was when war was chivalrous where poor civilians were largely spared. How do you suppose they could go on from day to day? Faith in God. That is how.

Hey, here's some more sage advice from a guy who doesn't even own any vintage doubles, or any modern double guns either.

Maybe he'll offer some more reloading advice again... and then slip up less than one month later, and admit that he never reloads ammunition.

Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--

Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--

Of course, on the internet you can pretend to be anything and pathologically post crap that isn't true... and some naive souls will actually believe you. Some actually don't see that as trolling, and defend their sick and dishonest behavior.

Received several more full size and high resolution images. The resized images posted here have much less detail.







I'm with Stan; looks like a primary chamber metal failure. I don't see a ring bulge. The top rib extension screw (and the receiver does have the doll's head slot) appears NOT to involve the barrel as the hole ends superior to the extractor guide rod.
No response to the word I've circulated hoping to evaluate the barrels.

from the amount of case showing -

do we know if the gun was high condition -
or highly restored?

Damascus barreled shotguns are like a ticking time bomb without a definitive timer....not a matter of will it blow the question is when will it blow ?

I've shot and owned more than my share of old damascus barreled shotguns...there comes a time to realize they are just curios and relics from the past that have long sense served their purpose.

The kool factor will only last so long.

Ps....Keith I don't know why you waste your time replying to the non gun owning idiOts on this board.

The chamber walls are pitted although we do not know what it looks like on the blown side.

Judging by the wood the violence of the blow seems way past what a factory shell could do.

I was told from a reliable source that the shooter blacked out from the incidence but only received a small scratch on his forehead.

I was not there.

Good to hear...he and the bystanders were awful lucky.

I'd even have less faith in an old fluid steel shotgun.

At first glance I thought the walls of the chamber had pitting which seemed odd. In the picture of the chamber above, the light is coming from the right casting a shadow. If you look at the bumps on the chamber wall, you will note the sunny side is on the right and the shadow is on the left. That is even stranger. What is up with that? Am I seeing it correctly?

Homeless Joe, Should we send you our Damascus guns for Testing?

Well, the claim for 'factory loaded' smells a bit like fish.

First, the choice of load is not real intelligent.

Remington factory 'Nitro' STS Sporting loads in a Damascus hammer Parker?

How unpleasant would that be if everything went well?

1 1/8 oz at 1300 FPS, 1 oz at 1350 FPS. Those are the two cataloged.

No. I don't buy it. Nobody in their right mind does that.

Those are reloads put up in gold STS cases (I do that all the time myself, the color helps identify the load).

Somebody misidentified the powder, or made some other gross error like a double charge of a dense, quick powder.

The reloads may have been obtained from another person, and the guy is just trying to cover up the real story.

Obviously, my opinion only... a blown barrel without warning with only 10K PSI +/- is just too unlikely.

To illustrate further:

My Damascus load is 12.9 grains of AA Lite behind 7/8 oz.

I bought the last two cans from Gamaliel when that excellent powder was a victim of the Hodgdon monopoly.

This takes a #19 MEC bushing to throw. This is a reduced charge of a dense powder.

A double charge would easily fit in a STS case, and the loader may well not notice it.

18 grains of this stuff is right up to SAAMI maximum using 1 1/8 oz of shot.

Can you imagine 26 grains?

That's up in the 'Bellosphere' as far as pressure, and could have the exact same observed result.

It happens. We're just people.

[quote=Shotgunjones] "To illustrate further:

My Damascus load is 12.9 grains of AA Lite behind 7/8 oz.

I bought the last two cans from Gamaliel when that excellent powder was a victim of the Hodgdon monopoly.

This takes a #19 MEC bushing to throw. This is a reduced charge of a dense powder.

A double charge would easily fit in a STS case, and the loader may well not notice it.


18 grains of this stuff is right up to SAAMI maximum using 1 1/8 oz of shot.

Can you imagine 26 grains?

That's up in the 'Bellosphere' as far as pressure, and could have the exact same observed result.

It happens. We're just people."



An excellent reason to use bulkier powders when loading low pressure loads. For years I have used around 19 grains of PB in either WW AA CF cases or Remington STS cases & WW SL wad in loading 7/8 oz 12 ga.
loads @ around 6000 PSI. You can't double charge it & crimp it.

I've still got a few years of PB left & will miss it when it's used up.

True.

That's the concept behind 'Trail Boss' in metallics.

The chamber is really odd with the raised bumps.

I know of people who use old charge bars that have a fixed powder charge. In other words, no bushing. Just a fixed measure usually on an old 1 1/8 oz. shot charge bar. Stuff from the sixties. Those bars will throw a scary amount of a fast powder like Red Dot.

I saw a guy damage an LC Smith doing just that. I told him those charge bars were for paper shells and fiber wads but he insisted the loads were fine. Even after his gun was damaged.

Only 10,000 psi in a Damascus barrel? Is that considered in the realm of safety for a Damascus barrel?

For a service pressure according to most, no.

But Bell has shown that it's well within survivability.

One would expect to see signs of distress before actual failure, such as deformation if the metal is being pushed beyond it's elastic limits.

This is why I said in an earlier post that such a sudden failure would be unexpected given what we know now, because pattern welded material has shown ductility rather than brittleness in testing.

Unexpected does not mean impossible.

I read all of the articles by Sherman Bell and his testing of Damascus barrels and while reading his testing I was always thinking, can these results be applied across the board or only to the set of barrels he was testing.

What you're asking yourself is 'was the sample size statistically significant and representative?'

Most of us think it was.

Especially since the results were near identical for each sample.

In my view, a specific reason to NOT shoot older barrels either pattern welded or fluid steel was not demonstrated.

It's obviously an individual choice.

Note how many similar guns DID survive the weekend, and many other weekends.

It's only the plane that crashes that makes the news.

Given age different care amount and type of cartridges fired through different guns the test is only valid for that set of barrels. The only antidote is modern proof and since we do not have a proof house every shot from an old gun or any gun is shot into the unknown. One minimizes the risk and keeps on shooting. It just like getting into a car and driving every day or being driven every day.

Seems to me it's like getting into a car that you know has faulty brakes and driving it every day.

I agree.

So, draw the parallel for me. Are (aren't) you saying that just because it is a damascus barreled gun it is faulty?

SRH

Yeah, tell that to the Brits who profess to know everything about shotguns and are running barrels of all kinds made 100+ years ago through their proof houses even today.

OK.

We all know when enjoying old guns:

No shooting high pressure modern 2 3/4" shells in old 2 1/2" guns with sharp forcing cones.

Should you want to shoot modern CPI M shells, get the gun proofed, or visit our friends at RST.

We also know that when we buy a gun, we do not know what repairs have been done.

We also know that when we borrow a gun, that we assume if the gun is safe for the owner to shoot, it is safe for us.

Sadly, in this case, all the fail safes, failed.

It was an old gun, not freshly proved, shooting modern high pressure loads in a short chambered gun (Damascus barrels are really not a factor) .

The gun may have been repaired to reattach the part of the rib with the 3rd fastner. The hole for the attaching screw may have gone too deep and reduced the chamber MWT so small as to create a failure point.

FINE

No one was hurt, the gun is a total loss. This discussion is not about the weakness of Damascus, it is about everyone looking out for each other.

At any point, someone could have said, I'll just shoot low pressure RSTs, or this is a black powder gun, or it's 2 1/2" chambered, or whatever.

It is upon every shooter of vintage guns to look out for each other.

I like my eye sight and fingers. I'll look out for yours as well as I'd like you to look out for mine.


That is about the strongest reply I have ever made. I saw the gun. I know the participants. No one was hurt. Let this be a lesson learned.

Can we agree?

Heck I just bought a Damascus gun, and a flat of RST 9s to shoot through it.

Joe Norcom
President of the Carolina Vintagers (52 strong)

shoot all the Damascus guns you want....just let me know when you are doing it so I can leave the range.....

I love my EM Reilly 1898 Damascus barreled hammer gun . I will shot low pressure 2 1/2 RST shells down its beautiful 30" barrels. I will destroy clays and feel good about it. As we used to say in Vietnam...s*** happens. Just don't be stupid.

Have there been other blow ups of guns at these "vintager" shoots? There are a number of shoots throughout the year and all of them feature shooting composite barreled guns in excess of 100 years of age. To my knowledge there has never been a similar incident at a vintager shoot, this would include the Southern (fall and spring), Hausmans shoot, etc. This was an unfortunate incident, but in IMO the safety record of Damascus guns is remarkable because the shooters are (generally) educated about their safe use. Remember, Damascus barrels were discontinued because of manufacturing costs not over safety concerns. I will continue to shoot mine. Glad no one was hurt here.

It looks to me like strongest reply ever just means good stuff. I follow along with interest, and I appreciate your contribution.

If anyone could put me in touch w/ the owner, I would be interested in purchasing the remains of that Parker.

Since I was standing there with JoeinCharlotte when the remains of the gun were brought in, I'll put in my 2 cents worth too.

I've been going to the VGC and other SxS shoots since 2008, and this is the first blow-up at one of those events that I'm aware of.

The shooter was borrowing the gun from another member of the shooting squad. After calling for the target, the shooter said the next thing he remembered was everyone asking him if he was OK.

The gun came back to the tent area with both hammers down and it could not be opened. Nobody was sure if both barrels had gone off or not. The 2nd barrel was checked with a cleaning rod and found to contain an empty shell, so both went off in quick succession.

There was much insistence and agreement among the squad of shooters that the shooter was using factory ammo. I did not get a chance, or think to, check the remaining ammo in the box to see if the shells appeared to be factory fresh or reloads. I have no reason to doubt the word of those shooters.

Looking at the pictures, that screw hole does seem deep and wide and well into the chamber wall of the other barrel. The Parker hammer guns with the dolls head extension all have that screw to secure the steel piece of the extension and rib. I double checked mine and it has that screw too. I have to wonder if what we see in the picture is what was correct for the factory, or if it was bored-out or deepened during a repair.

Everyone who saw the gun was thankful and amazed that nobody was injured and walked away shaking their head, and probably thinking something along the lines of "There but for the grace of God go I". I know I did. We all know that Damascus barrels are generally very strong, but you can't be too cavalier about what you put in them. The ammo still have to be appropriate for the gun.

Can't agree with JoeinCharlotte enough that this may well have been preventable. If you borrow a gun, always ask if your ammo is appropriate for the gun. If you lend a gun, make sure appropriate ammo is going to be used in it. And if you see something that looks amiss to you, say something.

---Matt

The only other case of maybe a damascus gun letting go was years ago at Sandanona. A 28 ga who's maker I can't recall. I think the verdict was very thin walls and again inappropriate cartridges. It was discussed here back then. I'll try to find the discussion.

Well, if that's the story, it's an almost unbelievable chain of errors.

Accident reports frequently read thus.

Break the chain at any point, and the accident does not happen.

Owner loans gun
Does not specify shells, assumes user knows
User does not know
User picks something inappropriate to say the least
Squad says nothing
Owner is right there(!)
Gun shows no sign of distress OR
Nobody even thinks to check
Gun blows

Even so....

Why? I know the law of Murphy is all pervasive but... sheesh.

Remington STS is an industry leading product. While no product is perfect, STS is likely 5 sigma reliable.

Many, many of them are used each weekend. What are the chances the ONE defective one ends up in that gun given the rarity of use in that application? Approximately zero.

The gun should not have blown like that, even given that the reported events are true.

At any rate, no injury and hopefully the community as a whole can learn from this.

A couple guys have noted the rough chambers in the most recent pics that Drew posted. But there are a couple other little details seen especially in the 2nd and 3rd pics that caught my eye when I blew them up. Most interesting is the band of RUST color from the extractor, running forward an inch or so. This rust colored band is approximately half the thickness of the barrels at the rear of the chamber. Could this be an old crack that went unnoticed for years until someone fired an inappropriate load?

Add to that the dark spot about 1/4" from the extractor that appears to be a deep pit or inclusion extending from inside the rough chamber down to that rust colored band that looks so suspicious.

I mentioned earlier that the pics of the Parker barrels blown up in Bell's tests appeared to peel open starting near the top. Both tubes appeared similar, and the rupture opened at the top, but did not tear loose on the bottom as this hammergun did. It seems like the water table supported the bottom of the barrels in Bell's test. That makes me think that the rupture in this case originated at the bottom of the barrels in that rust colored area, and peeled upward until the section broke off at the thinnest point around the extractor guide pin. If there was a pre-existing crack at the bottom of the chamber, further compromised by a pit or inclusion, that could explain why this particular barrel failed at a far lower pressure than Sherman Bell ended with. If Bell had used this particular set of barrels in his experiment, he might have concluded that Damascus was far weaker.

Naturally, I'd like to see these barrels end up in the hands of someone who was qualified to make a conclusion from a very close examination, rather than conjecture based on pictures. But I will continue to use my Damascus guns with appropriate lower pressure loads... same as I'll use in my 100 year old fluid steel guns.

Anyone with a little common sense would know it only applied to the barrels he was testing and they could've exploded on the very next shot....

Trying to look cool at the gun club is not worth the risk.

Might try seeing a head shrink...

When you shoot a gun that should be hanging on a Cracker Barrel wall or in a Gun Museum I don't think that holds true.

Question iz...

Just how thick is the head that can't comprehend the hidden flaws naturally forged into Damascus barrels ?

Hmmm. One has to wonder how British Damascus guns pass nitro proof.

First hand report is he wasn't hurt physically. What bout the mental aspeck of shooting? Shooter was alledgedly well know tourny man whose often been sponsored by a gun maker. Start of flinching or other impack on shooting?

that was a British made gun had walls that measured in the low teens

lots of honing to get those shiney bores -

i expect they would have failed with almost any ammo

That seems like a strange question to ask here. Besides, it is unanswerable.

SRH

Some pass some fail. To save time and expense they usually have competent gunsmith look over a piece to see if it is a candidate for re-proof. One does have to admit the proof system works and it withstood test of time. Their guns will fail in controlled environment our will fail in shooters hands.

So, do you believe the 'proof system' is a work of art? Neither gunsmiths nor time are law enforcement officers or legislators. You're lucky dream in an echo chamber of absolute guarantees. I think we should proof people so that they only fail in safe zones, not out in public.

No. What I'm really saying antique shotgun with recent proof marks is worth a premium.

Life is frustrating I was looking through used guns at LGS near nice working class American looking for affordable gun to shoot. Pulled out fusil a pompe Manufrance in excellent condition. Everything sod could hope for in $150 shoty: nicely blued light contour chromed bore barrel choked half, cut-checkered walnut stock with nice recoil pad, alloy receiver (along with light barrel giving nice handling) chromed steel bolt, plus St. Etienne proof for modern gun with 70mm chambers. He still took used Mossberg for $200. People very hard to understand, yes?

Which you would never pay.

There is nothing you feel unqualified to comment on.

"One does have to admit"

I would if I wanted old' game gun with damascus barrels. It's worth extra to lessen chance of something going to pieces in ones arms. I don't understand why you would suggest something like that. I mean I pay for homeowners insurance, car insurance,.....health insurance which I don't really use, but may need. Living in USA we do stuff like this all the time.

"If"

Which you don't, and never will.

Why don't you go to a Harley forum and tell them about BMWs?

And thanks for the edit and the charming fabricated story.

Amen Jagermeister. We've been hearing about your tire-kicking and window shopping for years now, yet you still can't find even one lousy double in your price range that suits you.

Too bad your idol Barack Obama didn't pass out double guns like he did Obama-phones to losers and pretenders like you. Haven't you been caught enough times telling us lies and fairy tales about guns you never actually owned, and fictitious incidents like that bullshit story you told us awhile back about someone getting shot during an accidental discharge in a gun shop. When pressed for details about when and where it allegedly occurred, you couldn't tell us anything. I wish I had the time right now to replay some quotes from you to illustrate the inconsistencies in stories about the guns you've claimed to own just in this year. But I'll get the chance to do it later, because frauds like you have no shame, even when caught in several lies.

To prevent future accidents they have safety person checking all guns that come in and a large black bullet trap near the front door entrance.

Just guessing, but there are probably 50,000 + old Damascus barreled SxS's still out there in "shootable? condition." All are at least a century old.

The fact that we hear of a few blowing out each year shouldn't be a big statistical surprise.

I was at a Sporting Clay range clubhouse this week, and the guys were passing around a recent stainless Taurus .357 revolver that had blown the cylinder and top strap due to a handloading error. STUFF HAPPENS!

gold40

Of the few photos I have seen of blown up barrels, most have been fluid steel, not Damascus. That said, it would be very worthwhile to have a good analysis of the barrels that just blew up in Maryland.

If Doc Drew gets his hands on them, they'll get a good analysis.

You said it all in one word Taurus...junk

I HAVE ONLY SEEN TWO BLOWUPS AND BOTH WITH FACTORY AMMO.
ONE WAS A MOSSBURG PUMP THAT WAS NEAR NEW AND THE OTHER A BROWNING GTI O/U WITH WINCHESTER TRAP AMMO.

From the owners of a local skeet range who have had two blowups in more than 20 million rounds shot there. Both were hand loads. Nobody was hurt in either one.

Don't be bad mouthing Teds pumper...

Same here, Richard. But given that the number of rounds fired through Damascus guns is tiny compared to the use to which guns with fluid steel barrels are put, that shouldn't come as a surprise. About all it tells us is that accidents happen, even with "modern" firearms. And, at least on occasion, using factory ammunition.

I don't think there's any good way we can compare Damascus blowups, in terms of how often it happens out of the number of rounds fired, to fluid steel catastrophic failures. And to that we might want to consider how often older (say maybe pre-WWII) fluid steel barrels blow compared to more modern ones. But there are a host of factors involved. Like older barrels having been honed, chambers lengthened, etc.

What it comes down to is that by exercising proper caution and common sense, we should be able to reduce these incidents significantly. But we'll never eliminate them totally.

Was hoping for more information, or the barrels, but neither has been forthcoming. It's the owner's gun, and he of course may do what he wishes with the remains.
It is frustrating however for those who use our pattern welded barreled vintage doubles to see reports of a burst, receive limited information and images, we all contribute not especially helpful opinions, and then have no definitive answer as to the cause; which could possibly be established as simply as measuring the wall thicknesses. Knowledge IS safety.

And re: the Parker top rib extension. This shows the screw head clearly, and mismatched Parker D4

wonderful photography...

I've been in contact with the gun's owner and, with his permission, hope to post more definitive information next week. The point is not to criticize anyone, but to learn what happen so similar events can be avoided.

The critical information we need:
1. Exact chamber length
2. Exact chamber dimensions (for evidence of previous honing). The entrance to the chambers of c. 1900 12g U.S. doubles is usually .809” -.812”, tapering to .795” - .798”.
3. Exact bore dimensions (for evidence of previous honing)
4. Minimal wall thickness at the end of the chamber
5. Minimal wall thickness at the forcing cone
6. Minimal wall thickness around the burst edges



7. Does the burst barrel appear to have a “ring bulge”?
8. Was the load confirmed to be factory? Which Remington Nitro load? If not, what was the reload recipe and the expertise of the reloader?
9. Is there visual evidence of over-pressure on the remains of the shell? Extractor imprint on the brass? Cratered primer?
10. Did the shooter notice anything abnormal the previous shot through the burst barrel? Sound? Recoil?

Certainly looks to have found the thin/weakest spot to blow.
How do you generally feel about 0.019 thickness. or should that be thinness ?
O.M

That tube shows significant distortion. There's a good chance that it was thicker than .019" before the mishap.

To clarify gentlemen, that image is an example of the measurements that need to be taken, from ANOTHER burst.
Craig's observation is correct, and I've discussed the issue with a mechanical engineer. That degree of elastic deformation is unlikely to thin the barrel more than .001 - .002".

For those with the interest, and smarts

Calculation of the tube thickness reduction rate

Wt = ( D-d0 ) - ( H - d1 ) / ( D - d0 ) × 100
d1 = (D-d0)×(1-Wt / 100)

Wt: tube thickness reduction rate (%)
H: sheet hole diameter before tube expansion (mm)
D: outer diameter of tube before tube expansion (mm)
d0: inner diameter of tube before expansion (mm)
d1: inner diameter of tube after tube expansion (mm)

And yes, .020" just past the forend (where the leading hand rests) is too thin.
CIP suggests .030" at 12", for 4140 strength steel.

Mr. Hause, Sir. I really appreciate your efforts to add to our collective knowledge. People like you are invaluable to the internet. Bravo.

Only a thought Doc Drew. These blow ups appear to be very asymmetrical expansions of a barrel tube. There also may be signs, such as refinishing, that point to an uneven wall thickness before the expansion occurs. Maybe it's a bit like blowing up a balloon with a thin spot and the shape distorts out of that spot. Hat's off to you for the great detective work.

Keep up the good work, Doc!