I used to count on the NFL to control the crowding of the various venues I tend to haunt on Sundays. Be it a trout stream or a bird covert (or even my local COSTCO). Now I'm hearing that my quiet time might not be so quiet anymore. Yet another good opiate for the masses seems to have hit a snag. I don't really have a dog in this fight, I've never been a fan of professional sports and my hero worship has always been limited to a pretty select group of people, even as a kid. Not sure how this will all play out, but it seems the culture wars have claimed another American institution. For the folks that are fans, I'm sure this is a big deal. We certainly live in interesting times.

In NASCAR, the Petty race team policy is - you don't stand, you're fired. Seems simple enough. If I want to watch politics I watch Fox News, not a bunch of over paid football players disrespecting the flag that 650,000 Americans died for.

does anybody know what these guys are protesting?

I think the same thing that creates these big rich spoiled brat entertainers, are the same lower school and colleges that're molding their fans. It's got some traction, so it looks like an opportunity to take more increments out of a crumbling nation. Where have we seen this strategy before.

So far, the 'polls' say about 70% of the country does not agree with the chumps, but the 30ish% get the pc megaphone. The ravens/jags game on foreign soil had some clowns sit for the US National Anthem, and stand for God Save the Queen. The game was reported to have been picked up by AFN for troops taking a small break from putting their lives on the line in some world's worst sewers.

I suppose since I don't bet on these games it's easier for me to disengage, but though I catch highlights here and there, I will not give the league hours of my viewing time and I go out of my way to not patronize the sponsors. It's generally easy, there're so many options.

I like following the game and commitment it takes, but by happen chance, it turns out to be in a lower college division. Plenty competitive, athletic and complex. Go figure, the coach makes the whole team take a knee, for a prayer.

I suspect the NFL will quietly tell the broadcasting networks to go to commercials instead of showing the national anthem. Baseball does it that way. If no cameras show the protest and the network commentators don't talk about it 95% of this will go away in a week. The only people who will be directly affected will be the fans at the game. You will reduce the audience from 50 million to 750k in one step. About a 98% reduction in one step.

It's like what you do to a three year old who is acting up to get attention. You can't always give him a swat on his bum like he might need. But if you just ignore him he will stop because even a three year old figures out it is not working. You need to remove the attention they are getting. First step is to not show it. Second step is to not talk endlessly about it. Don't debate it just stop paying it any attention. By that means you will have taken away their platform and they can get back to their job, playing football now protesting for social change.

If they want to make a real change challenge them to give up one game check a year or to not show up for the game and forfeit that check. Money talks and BS kneels. Kaepernick did not start this until he got benched. He was trying to keep himself in the spotlight. So I have zero interest in keeping him in the news.

Obviously the NFL executives are unwilling to enforce their own rules. Shameful.
The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook. It states:
“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition...
..It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.

A friend of mine said it best, most would be in prison if not playing in the NFL. Come to think of it, some are.

The President of the United States has been ridiculed and lambasted for daring to comment on pro football player's protest of our Country's flag and National Anthem. The last prez freely commented on all liberal issues including the pending trial of a gun owner for the alleged murder of a black youth who could have been the son of that previous prez. He was applauded for his interference.

I do not agree with the player's protest and I do not have to agree with them. What we are seeing across the Country and on this BBS is a protest of that protest. Great thing about America is both sides have every right to express their own opinion...Geo

The protests aren't the only problem the NFL has. The brain injury thing is turning a lot of people off football in general.

The tough part about it Geo is that there have been African American and Hispanic players that have been punished by the league for expressing their opinion about endorsements and memorials. Maybe, an American greatness doesn't translate to user or employment agreements. Seems to me that the only real problem is the hypocrisy to support a political narrative. But, apparently there are enough perceived fans that form their moral compass based on the actions of actors that won't take to the field without mo money, mo money, mo money.

Money talks. If you don't agree with the player's protests, vote with your checkbook. Money is the only thing that matters to these sponsors, and their money, and the monies from ticket sales, is the only thing that matters to the NFL. Changing it won't happen immediately, but it could be done.

As for me, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

SRH

I ditched the NBA and the NFL last year....they'll never get another dime of my money. I hear a lot of folks bailing on the NFL cable packages too.

Maybe these overpaid athletes ought to place the blame for racial oppression where it belongs rather than turning their backs on the American flag:

Football is nothing but an outright obsession for WAY too many people in this country. Nothing but good can come from some time away from it while they get their heads out of their rears.

As usual what was in fact the intent has been blanketed with BS by a particularly unknowing and misguided segment of (I hesitate to use the term) society that is NOT what the protest was about. And that was covered by every news agency in the world a few mo ago.
Good to know that so many here are actually aware of what is happening in the world and are so thoroughly cognizant of the concepts embodied in the Constitution and it's Amendments. Ever wonder why that one was NUMBER ONE?

Because it's the most critical, the most fragile, and usually....the first one lost as liberty is stripped away. Once it is lost, all the rest fall away as well.

If you want to watch professional athletes who respect the flag, the anthem, America, and bleed patriotism from every pore perform, go support a rodeo.
Cowboys stand for the flag and the anthem and kneel for the cross.
None of the prima dona "oppressed" NFL players would last 8 seconds in a rodeo arena in any event.....neither would NBA players.

I haven't watched the NFL for decades now, well since the eighties when they changed all the rules for passing and the quarterback sissies.

I watch the Steelers that's it, but I watch every college game. I believe the President is right about calling these guys out.

It's a smokescreen generated in anticipation of failure to repeal the Affordable Care Act and loss given by voters in Alabama to candidate he was endorsing. The focus should be on helping people deal with damage and loss in Tx, Fl, Puerto Rico......

He can't repeal Obamacare alone, he needs a bill to sign. A bill the Republicans said they had for the last 7 years.

The NHL is a very wholesome league if you are looking for a new sport to follow. I have to warn you though that there are quite a few of THOSE people in it. You know...Canadians.


_________________________
Five for Fighting

Thanks Lonesome but I already follow the NHL.

I hear people in your neck of the woods are chanting over and over again, THREEPEAT THREEPEAT!!!

Do you know what team they're referring to, Lonesome?

I was listening to the radio news on the way to work when this controversy was being reported. I thought : How many businesses would allow their employees to disrespect their customers? If I didn't stand to greet and shake hands with an airline executive visiting my company, I'd be fired. Even our CEO would be fired. Free speech or not. An airline exec that was snubbed would likely sway his company to buy Airbus instead.

Later I found an article where Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) commented. It's in the hands of the fans. http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/25/mike-r...nthem-protests/

I think all the NFL commissioner and owners are crapping their shorts about now.

I'm not a regular or even irregular NFL viewer. So, I don't have a dog in this.

Also, I see the NFL as about a generation away from vanishing. The concussion issue is not going away. The first effect will be on very young kid football organizations being largely avoided by parents, eventually leading to their demise. Next will be high schools, which will cascade into college and finally the NFL. This protest stuff is just sucking money out of their revenue and hastening the process, imo.

A majority of the millennial and gen x people I work with watch soccer anyway. Could be a trend.

Yup, that's us. Polite, deferential and always apologizing.

If that's how you like your televised sports then the NHL may be for you!!

Except, don't watch or cheer for the Red Wings. Those guys are jerks. They need their lights punched out. Just 'cause.

I went to a pro hockey game in Atlanta once, long ago when the game first came South. Didn't have a clue what was going on, but it sure was fast...Geo

Doctor Wonko, if the player's protest is "free speech" then why would you think that the President's protest of the protest was not?...Geo

Is Lonesome a Red Wings Fan? I thought he liked the Caps.

I'll have to say one thing about those Russian players, man do they have beautiful wives!!!

I'm a Wings fan, but they're not giving me much to cheer about lately. What's wrong canvasback, did the Wings kick the shi# out of your team once too often in the past? Not to worry, right now everyone is returning the favor. I to have quit watching NFL games till someone gets their head screwed on right.

I have no issues with the rights outlined in the US Constitution.
Additionally, I have no issues executing my rights to voice displeasure/or not support athletes or others that I feel disrespect our flag or National Anthem.

Just exactly why are these people protesting? Maybe that they are overpaid?

Relax Paul. Just some good natured ribbing. But "my" team has been kicking the shit out of the Red Wings since the whole thing started. Seeing as "my" team is the Montreal Canadiens.

This disingenuous crap all started in November of 2015 when the mulatto brat Colin Kaepernick lost his starting QB job with the SF 49er's. He needed some attention, and started sitting on the bench during the National Anthem... supposedly to protest police brutality and oppression of blacks in this country. Note that he wasn't at all concerned that far more blacks die at the hands of other blacks due to crime and the drug trade. He wasn't at all concerned that his president Barack Hussein Obama didn't give a crap about the number of gang shootings that were occurring every week in his hometown of Chicago, because those stats gave him reason to pursue more gun control against law abiding citizens like you and me.

Poor benched QB Kaepernick wasn't getting enough attention, so he took a place on the field and knelt during the National Anthem in order to get more attention.

Some on the Liberal Left would have you believe that this kneeling phenomena was fading fast until the evil arch-enemy Donald Trump weighed in, but that is not at all true. Other players on other teams have joined in the protest, and even entire kiddie football teams have been coerced into kneeling during the National Anthem by their adult coaches. Of course, when Trump weighed in and gave his opinion last week that these spoiled S.O.B.'s should be fired by their team owners, the Left went apoplectic, saying he had no right to voice such an opinion. They said he was violating the player's free speech rights, but totally ignore his free speech right. One wonders where these objective, fair, and balanced pundits and commentators were when Barack Hussein Obama was weighing in with his opinion during some civilian and Police shooting incidents in Florida, Baltimore, Ferguson. etc., before they had been properly investigated and prosecuted before a Court in accordance with the Constitutional Rights and protections we supposedly have. Obama's comments supported a lynch-mob mentality that incited race riots and looting.

So now it's more about Trump than it is about any perceived or real oppression. The Left has their real target once again after Trump disappointed them by reacting well to a couple severe hurricaines, and Jagermeister, who bashed Trump all during the election, and later claimed to vote for him, is back to bashing him. I think the NFL owners should fire them. Then they could really piss them off by practicing affirmative action in the NFL, and replacing them with 75-80% white players... all in the interest of racial equality.

And no matter what anyone thinks, Dr. Wanker knows more than all of us... combined!

I think at this point, most of them don't have a clue what they're doing, only that they're susceptible to the mob mentality. They do know that they're picking a side and are quick to use the rhetoric of division. They just may not be on the same side as their fans who foot the bill. I wonder if any of them would protest while they are on the field and the ball is in play, it would make for a much more dramatic statement. Or, are most of them deathly afraid of losing their job based on color blind qualifications.

He's got a good point there, Paul.

Since 2000, 855 NFL players have been arrested for numerous DUI's, drug possession and sales, assaults, 97 DOMESTIC VIOLENCE charges, and 2 murders. Friday, Sept. 22nd, a Los Angeles Rams DL was arrested for possession of a stolen handgun(they aren't paying him enough to buy a gun?) - nothing on the news about that arrest. It's not the National Football League, it's the National Felony League. Why would anyone support a group of largely hood rats who have zero respect for the country and people who have enabled them to become wealthy and famous(or infamous)? I won't. I'll support my local high school football team and college sports,(especially skeet & trap teams) but to hell with the NFL for all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwfvRbAK2IM
JR

People are crazy and times are strange
I’m locked in tight, I’m out of range
I used to care but—things have changed

Bob Dylan



_______________________
Buck ‘Em. (and bring back yesterday)
https://youtu.be/F_GmsGfUjBo

Hell they don't even know....most can't add past 2+2.

Ha! We now know the source of the problem in the NFL. All those guys went to school with Joe.

Why don't you tell us about your school Larry. Was that where you learned to be dumb enough to think you wouldn't get caught misrepresenting the Audobon Society's actual position on lead shot bans, and then attempting to defend that statement by editing words out of their mission statement? Your selective editing can be found in the "Lead and Condors" thread that was locked after you cried to Dave.

I've never seen jOe attempt to pull crap like that. Would you like to tell everyone why you're really pretending to IGNORE me?

Speaking of disingenuous crap... I find it very interesting how Liberal Left news sources claim that Americans overwhelmingly support these NFL National Anthem protests. Yet a Yahoo Finance poll on the very same question found a vast majority think they are wrong. I hope we see people voting with their wallets and lack of attendance or TV viewing. In my opinion, dishonest polls are just as useless and untrustworthy as someone who would edit words out of an Audobon Society statement about lead shot.

People are making a mountain out of an ant hill. One might ask why we play the National Anthem before each game. These are just form of entertainment. Think about it we do not play National Anthem before each performance at the opera or performance by city ballet. I admit I do not understand what is the big deal in the first place.

One reason the National Anthem is played before each game (in addition to "tradition"): It's required in the NFL Rule Book. And the players are also required to be on the field for the anthem. Can be fined or suspended if they're not. Standing . . . the rule book says players "should stand", and I expect lawyers would have a field day with that "should".

A Habs fan? James, I am shocked!

Q: What's the difference between the Detroit Red Wings and the Montreal Canadiens?

A: The last Red Wings Stanley Cup team picture isn't in black & white.

Full disclosure: I am a Leafs fan. The pictures of the Leafs last Stanley Cup win were chiseled in stone. Photography had not yet been invented.

I hear people in your neck of the woods are chanting over and over again, THREEPEAT THREEPEAT!!!


Chicago 10

Pittsburgh 1

Jeepers.


_________________________
DEE-FEET!!! DEE-FEET!!!

Patrick, we've just let the Red Wings catch up a bit. They were so far behind, and the 1950's was so long ago, they were in danger of just giving up completely.

It's the same for the Leafs. Faint hope is required under the Canadian Justice system.

Hmmmmm. Wings have more points than the Jets and that team from Kwee-beck combined with two games in hand.

How ‘bout them Leafs?


_____________________
Quit Jammin’ Me.
https://youtu.be/GjfhuqTD79w

Lonesome, there's a long way to go. The season just started.

Yeah, he who laughs last and all that. I’m going to enjoy a good chuckle now. You never know when He’s coming back...or when you’re leaving.


_________________________
https://youtu.be/pH7nUIHLIC0

Dieu merci pour les Sabres.


________________________
Pour les fanatiques les Kwee-beckers
https://youtu.be/PHUKGa1329g

Detroiter: Your hockey team sucks.

Buffalonian: Yeah, but we’re better than the Canadiens.

(gettin’ the rough ride out west, eh)

((Leafs ain’t playin’))


________________________
The French Connection
https://youtu.be/MgHqRPggo9w

Anyone who thinks Slavery was bot an issue in the mid 1800's is like an ostrich with his head buried in the sand. anyone who thinks it was the only issue is like a mole who is completely underground in his tunnel & unseeing. Abraham Lincoln himself said the War was not fought over slavery but preserving the union. He stated "IF" he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would do so, "IF" it required freeing them he would do so. He actually had no concern at all for the Blac race, feeling them an inferior race who could never live on an equal basis with Whites. His solution to the problem was to export them all "OUT" of the US either to Africa or the Caribbeans. Also don't forget that while the Late War was being fought construction of the US Capitol was underway with the use "SLAVE" labor.
After South Carolina & several other states had seceded The State if Virginia sent representatives to talk with Lincoln over a short period of time. These representatives flat out told Lincoln "IF" he would follow the constitution of the US Virginia would not secede, they would support him & do their very best to bring the seceded states back in the Union. During these sessions not once was slavery mentioned, Lincoln was concerned about his "Tariff". At this point he "Federal Government's" only source of income was tariffs. A new tariff law had just been enacted which on some items raised the tariff from 13% to as much as 40%. The South was paying around 75%-80% of this tariff already. The South did not much feel like being more heavily burdened but they had not enough representatives in congress to stop it though dissent was being raised. Lincoln had vowed his full support of this tariff. Upon his election with Charleston Harbor being a major Seaport South Carolina immediately seceded. They were quickly followed by 6 other states, which one might note nearly every one had a major seaport. After Fort Sumter When Lincoln "Unconstitutionally" called upon the states to provide men & arms to "Put Down the Rebellion" & Force these 7 states back into the union 4 more states joined the Canfedercy, including the state of Virginia & my home state of Tennessee.
It is a Crying Shame that "History" has lied so much & distorted the truth, but as Confederate General Patrick Claiborne said shortly before his death in the battle of Franklin TN, He who Wins the War, Writes the History.
What is even more Shameful is the number of people, even many Confederate descendants, who have believed the "BIG LIE".

YES; I freely admit I am descended from Confederate veterans. Two of my G-Great Grand Fathers along with numerous other relatives fought for the CSA. I apologize to NO ONE for this. One of my G-Great Grandfathers fought with the 45th Tennessee Infantry, the other the Starnes McLemore 4th Tennessee Volunteer Cavalry. I am a proud member of the Sons of Confederate of Veterans, (SCV) have a battle flag in my home, previously flew a larger one from my porch but it wore out & have not yet replaced it. I will note that at our Monthly meeting we open with a prayer to the eternal God. This is followed by a Pledge of Allegiance to the US Flag, which is then followed by a salute to the battle flag. A good number of our members either are now or have served in the US Military forces. We are "NOT" a racist group. Atrocities have been committed by people carrying the US flag as well as the Confederate flag. Both were in total disrespect of the flag they were carrying & what it represented.
As to me personally I am also Not Racist. Over the years I have had a number of good friends whom I highly respected. I also have a 3rd or 4th cousin who is black. He is welcomed at our Family Reunions. I believe he is now retired but for many years he was a preacher of the True New Testament Church. I have heard him preach on several occasions & he simply preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He in fact preached the /funeral for one of my Uncles & a few years later that of his Wife, my Aunt by marriage.
Oh the "LIES" which have been swallowed over the years.

No connection to any of the above but just an example of lies from history books that many have swallowed over the years, Samuel Colt did not Invent the revolver, only improved it. His own patent claims make this perfectly clear.
Just thought it time to show there are two sides to every story & most of what is "Politically Correct" today are simply Untruths.

Miller/TN

Thank you for the history lesson. While I have no issue with it some would argue that flying Confederate Battle Flag is at least as disrespectful to this great country as taking a knee at a ball game. Armistice was signed in 1865 which was very long time ago. Your side lost why can't you get over it?

+1

Thank you, Miller, for going to the effort to put those truths in writing.

Jagermeister, you say you don't see what is the big deal about playing the national anthem. Would you answer one question? Did you serve the USA in the military? Are you a veteran?

SRH

Well, Jagermeister?

SRH

The tariff laws were very unfair. But slavery was the 400 lb gorilla. It was a good rallying and recruiting tool for the North. The South was deathly afraid of a slavery revolt after what had happened in Haiti. They needed a military to keep order. That terrible war could have been prevented if the South had freed the slaves and the North had allowed the Army to keep the peace and prevent a slave rebellion. Fools on all sides particularly among those who would not be fighting.

To suggest that slavery played no role in the reasons for Georgia, South Carolina, Texas, Mississippi and Virginia to leave the union is to ignore the historical, written reasons they gave for secession in their Declarations and Articles of Secession. VP of the Confederacy Alexander Stephens who was opposed to secession, but followed the wishes of his state, observed in his speech in Savannah that the cornerstone of secession was the issue of slavery and the natural order was to dominate and enslave the Negro. My great-great grandfather was captured at Ft. Pulaski here in Savannah and spent a portion of the war at Fort Delaware as a prisoner. He was eventually exchanged.
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

The issue of slavery was a very complex one which neither side had an answer for. It came down to money, need for cheap labor, fear of former slaves becoming too powerful, the loss of a way of life and Northern politicians running the country to their complete advantage at the cost of the South footing the bills. If the South ended up paying all the bills with no say so in the running of the country is that not much different than the reason their grandfathers rebelled against the Crown?

A vast amount of wealth was tied up in slaves and no government solution was ever considered for payment for freeing the salves. If slave owners frees their slaves they loose that value. Had the government offered to buy the slaves many owners would have been more inclined to free them. With large land holding you need lots of labor to farm it. Back then you could not just buy a larger tractor. But most slaves ended up working the land as free men. That was their job skill set and all many ever knew.

Slave prices had been in steady decline for almost 20 years. It was simple economics. Land fertility was being depleted by cotton and tobacco planting, with no fertilizer use to replenish what the crops were taking out of the soil. If crops only produced half of what they did decades before the value of labor to tend them went down. In many areas slaves did not produce enough to break even. It was certain that slavery would have died within 20 years even without the Civil War. The Civil War just caused it to occur sooner.

But in the end those who write the history get to make the history fit their viewpoint. So the economics of slavery forcing its end because it was no longer profitable is denied.

What happened here? Wasn't this discussion centered on hockey?

It was centuries before the Civil War that black Africans sold other black Africans into the slave trade. It seems that's what started this whole mess, and how they ended up here in this horrible unjust country where they have the opportunity to work hard and make millions of dollars... or to do nothing and get food, money, shelter, Obama-phones, free educations, and health care anyway. I wonder why Jagermeister, the guy who doesn't own even one lousy double gun, isn't questioning why the football players who choose to disrespect the flag don't get over that already as well. Maybe he could also tell us if more blacks died from decades of Jim Crow era lynchings, modern day shootings by Police, or from black-on-black crime?

Certainly slavery was an issue leading up to the WBTS. But, so many try to say it was the issue about which the whole war was fought. That is a ludicrous position that cannot be defended with either logic or facts.

Can you imagine the North going to war with the South to defend an indefensible position? According to the 1860 Census, just months before the Late Unpleasantness began, the sates that would become the Union (in the north) owned over 432,000 living and breathing slaves:


Now according to the 1860 census these were the following number of slaves in the four exsisting future border states (like I said, West Virginia wasn't a state yet and hadn't left the rest of Virginia in 1860) and DC as gathered from Shotgun's Home of the American Civil War's page on the census:

"Delaware 1,798
Dist. Columbia 3,185
Kentucky 225,483
Maryland 87,189
Missouri 114,931"

That comes out to 432,586 slaves in this part of the country in 1860. This seems to be confirmed by a chart on the 1860 census on the America's Civil War website which givesthe slave population in this area, minus DC, as follows :

"DELAWARE 1,798 (1.6%)
KENTUCKY 225,483 (19.5%)
MARYLAND 87,189 (12.7%)
MISSOURI 114,931 (9.7%)
TOTAL 429,401 (13.7%)"

Add to the first number, Kansas with 2 in 1860, Nebraska with 15 in 1860, and Utah with 29 in 1860. That raises the total to 432,632 slaves in the future Union states as of 1860.


SRH

I had a charter trip with a well known professional golfer back in the 80's.

Something he said to his admiring throng of fans has stuck with me.

"There are 150 million golfers in the world, and about 150 of us are making a living at it. If you like those odds, take up golf."

The numbers may have changed for that sport, but certainly the 'odds' part applies to any of them.

Professionals at any sport are exceptionally dedicated, athletically gifted, and.... lucky.

Very lucky. Anyone who would rock their own boat is an idiot.

Personally, I'd rather be out shooting than watching others play a game.

We fly the flag at the club, at full staff.

As this goes on it bugs me even more (if that's possible). The NFL is making some very poor business decisions IMHO. I'm to the point where I sincerely hope they end-up paying for those bad decisions.

Slavery was morally wrong, but was an economic question at the time of the WBTS. Slavery was an American institution, not just a southern one. If James Watt had been born in the USA, slavery would have been over without a war by 1865.

The point and cause of the war was the preservation of the Union. Probably best we lost...Geo

American History in a nutshell. And the James Watt you mentioned wasn't the former Secretary of the Interior. Gil

It came too damn close, but reconciliation between the states would not have been out of the question later on.

But there's still a lot of pride in them "Stars and Bars"

Yes...Geo

Keith;
As to this tangent it was introduced by you back on page two of this thread. In that tread you stated the Democrats started the "Civil War". This is of course a total untruth. The War was unconstitutionally started by Lincoln himself, a Republican.
This war was NOT a Civil War as the Confederacy never tried to take over the Us Government, but simply Peacefully remove themselves from it. In fact you will find that Neither side ever officially declared war against the other, neither was there any kind of treaty made at the end, they just quit shooting.
Yes, it is true the Confederacy fired the first shots at Sumter. They were coerced to this by Lincoln. The Fort was on South Carolina soil. SC had asked Lincoln on several occasions to remove the Union troops from this fort. They offered to reimburse the /us for the price of the fort & to safely transport the troops out of Charleston Harbor to awaiting US Transport ships. Instead Lincoln sent ships loaded with reinforcement troops, provisions and arms. As these ships approached the harbor General Beauregard decided his only option was to physically take the fort before it could be reinforced. This was accomplished. In the entire battle one Union soldier & no Confederates were killed. This man was
not killed by direct enemy fire but by a powder explosion inside the fort, no doubt an indirect result of the bombardment. When Lincoln was informed of the surrender he simply said, Well no matter, our mission has been accomplished (not a direct quote but in my words is what he said).
Lincoln was not a dummy, he knew he had not the authority to declare war, so he didn't. Instead he pulled up a factor from the constitution which allowed the President to send in federal troops when a situation arose that was threatening civilian lives & was out of control of local law enforcement. George Washington had used this when he sent troops to
Pennsylvania to put down the "Whiskey Rebellion". The situation did not exist at Charleston as it did in Penn, civilians were not being threatened nor was local law enforcement. Never-the-less Lincoln immediately called upon each state of the union to send men & arms to put down the rebellion. At this point 4 additional states seceded, stating they would not bring arms to bear upon the Southern Brethren. Missouri, Kentucky & Maryland were unconstitutionally prevented from doing likewise. So Yes Abraham Lincoln started the War. By his own words it was not because of Slavery. His reasons for not ceding Fort Sumter to SC were two fold. 1st as Charleston Harbor was a Major Seaport for both imports & exports he did not want to lose the tariff there. In this he failed. 2nd he "Wanted" to start the war but he wanted to coerce the "South" into firing the first shot. In this he succeeded.
Calling Abe Honest is about like calling Satan himself honest. He should be referred as Sly Old Abe.

Stan
Great Post, Thanks.
Miller/TN

It seems to me we are venturing into possibly unturned loose screw territory here. Let’s keep it limited to golf and hockey.

Go Leafs/Wings!


________________________
Motown
https://youtu.be/ixEOMB6jyEE

Actually Miller, I did not state that the Democrats started the Civil War on pg. 2 of this thread. What I did do was to post some information I found entitled " A Brief History of the Relationship Between the Democrat Party and African-Americans". But I am not the author of that informative little article. I believe most of it is correct as I have read many of the same things about the Democrats from numerous other sources. Vote totals for Civil Rights legislation and the various Civil Rights Acts are easily found in the Congressional Record. There is much disagreement about who or what actually started the Civil War, and whether the conflict fits the definition of a "Civil War". I am aware that there were also some slaves in some Northern States, and also that there were free blacks in the U.S. who owned and traded black slaves. Some sources define a "Civil War" as a war between citizens of the same country... which the festivities that began in 1861 certainly was. And some historians claim that Lincoln was justified in calling up troops to put down the rebellion at Ft. Sumter. Some folks also say that Franklin Roosevelt coerced the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines. I'm pretty sure some Japanese see history differently than we do.

But I wasn't trying to start another Civil War here. I merely made the tongue-in-cheek observation about hockey because it appeared that this thread had been diverted far away from the original topic about spoiled NFL players choosing to disrespect the flag during The National Anthem.

I do understand and respect having pride in your heritage and in the sacrifices made by your forefathers for defending their way of life. I'm personally disgusted by recent actions to whitewash history by removing Confederate statues and memorials. Honoring Confederate soldiers in no way excuses or glamorizes slavery. But Geo may find out that he is no longer welcome to share a Nova Scotia duck blind with King, JFK, and MLK as a result of his pride in the Stars and Bars. And Stan will never get an answer to his question to Jagermeister... the Liberal guy who doesn't own even one lousy double gun.

I'll draw that line right there as I couldn't and wouldn't hunt with anyone who doesn't have reverence for that flag.

Amen

He can't answer because he's a foreigner playing like an American.

You don't understand because you are a damn foreigner....sadly from some country that our ancestors most likely gave their lives to save.

Keith you've got to over look Larry Brown didn't you know he was brain washed in the middle east....

If Larry had his way they'd be playing some Muzlim song at the NFL games.

There is no need to play any songs or sing prior to NFT football games. It's just an entertaining sport event just like going to: cinema, opera, ballet, European football game,......

I took selective service exam in Johnstown New York. I could not join the military because at that time main opponent of USA was the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact States. In any conflict I would be forced to fight against my Slavic brothers. That would not be acceptable to me. Brothers should not fight brothers.

Well... I HAD a dream... about hockey and golf...

“There is no need to play any songs...ballet...”

I can vouch for this. At no time can I recall O Canada being sung at The Ballet in Windsor.


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What’s next? Crazy Brexiteers raging on Cromwell?
(Cromwell is all that came to mind. My grasp of British history is even sketchier than my American history)

Tell that to the Ukrainians that Stalin and the Soviet Union killed by the 10's of millions. Tell that the the Russians that Stalin and the Soviet state used as cannon fodder with little regard except to further Stalin's position and control over the Warsaw Pact counties.

Talk about your head up your ass.

And that Jm is why the US National Anthem should be on proud display during any US entertainment event, to honor the sacrifices of those much less selfish. The entire US is a nation of immigrants, not a multicultural experiment. Don't let the door hit you in the back side, perhaps the grass is greener over where your brothers live?

I think NFL is going to go into a long, slow, permanent decline: First; the Fans just do not understand that the kneeling is NOT in disrespect of the flag; but in the continued killing of black men by police.
Second; I don't think the President fully understands the long-term impact he will have on the game, and people will simply quit watching because of patriotism, whether misguided or not.
Third; the recent study which revealed that of those examined; ALL had suffered brain damage. Mom's are going to look at that and say "NO SON, You can't play football!"
I think we will watch the game of Soccer grow.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Now it's the fans fault because they're misguided and don't understand? Why can't a fan decide what's entertaining to them, or not. Why can't a fan be given enough credit to decide what they think is disrespectful or not? Of course soccer will grow because it is a one world form of entertainment, but maybe a quick look should be done at their concussion record that soccer moms all over America are subjecting their kids to.

Stalin was not a Brother. Communism/Bolshevism was not a Slavic idea or concept.

The economy is good. It's getting better from year to year. Not a bad place to retire.

Football game is just a ball game. It's not a political event or gathering, national holiday celebration, military victory parade,.....There is no need to play the National Anthem before each game.

craigd made a great post Jagermeister. But you have responded with even more stupidity than that lame excuse for being a draft dodger. Are you really saying that only places like military victory parades or national holidays are appropriate places for our National Anthem?

So just how many military victories or National Holidays would there be if everyone was like you?

Any three of the following should be grounds for deportation... after being imprisoned and fed crows infected with West Nile Virus:

You lie to us about the guns you claim to own.

You lie to us about your reloading and hunting.

You tell us how proud you were to vote for the extreme anti-guner Obama... TWICE.

You are a Liberal socialist who believes in taking more taxes from workers to redistribute to leeches like yourself.

You don't own even one lousy double gun.

You continually post crap about pumps and autoloaders on a double gun forum.

You actually rent a cheap Chinese .22 bolt action rifle.

You are a grown man who collects stuffed animals that come from a toy store rather than a taxidermist.

And now this disrespect for our flag and those who fought to defend it?

It sounds like you and Stalin have a lot in common. Little wonder you cared so deeply about your Communist brothers... or comrades.

I fly wonderful American flag made in USA. Yes, I think we should have wonderful victory day each year in May to honor our military veterans of foreign wars dead and alive both. If you Google Moscow Military Day Parade you will find wonderful samples of very festive events showing respects for veterans of the Great Patriotic War. Our veterans deserve no less.
I registered with selective service and am not a draft dodger because we have no draft. Come to think of it a draft dodger can even become President of the United States. What a great country.
What we need in this country is draft where every young person of certain age serves several months in the military. The only excuse should be severe debilitating health condition.

Exactly what I thought. If you had served you would now understand that your brothers in arms are more important to you than people of the same race who have aligned themselves with a cause for evil. And you would also understand why dishonoring the flag through ill-timed protests sticks in the craw of American Veterans.

SRH

Does it really matter what you registered for? Have you ever heard the expression, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a draft dodger?

A whole several months, eh? Your level of commitment entitles you to take a knee.

Look, to be a draft dodger one would have to avoid actual draft. There was no draft in the late 1980s.

Thank you for your service to our great country.

Whoa, I know that, you win. But, apparently, there may have been a little sympathizing with the enemy? Look, if I were to retire in your land and the land of your brothers, would I have to assimilate? Oh, and what are retirees entitled to there, and I don't wanna here nothing about no visits to the hard labor camps.

It will not be bad place to retire. You would have to assimilate. To assure security for their citizens the government officials will not accept refugees from the Middle East or Africa. Trump had nice rally there. I voted for him reasoning correctly that he would stay our of Central European/Eastern European matters focusing on issues in USA instead. It was the right judgement call. Another place worth considering as retirement is Canada. I don't know where I will spend my retirement years, but having as many options as possible is not a bad thing.

Soccer?!? Stupida f!@kin’ game.

Jag, Canada is nice. I would avoid Nova Scotia. Dreadful people live there. Sid “The Kid” aka “The Nova Scotian Nut Spearer” aka “The Lopper” (he chops off fingers) Crosby and Brad “The Leg Sweeper” aka “King of the Slewfoot” Marchand are from there. There is a other bad fellow from there but his name escapes me at the moment. Windsor Ontario is good. Great Ballet there.


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There’s a bee on you hat!
https://youtu.be/OcPgxQkcIVs