Hello,
I am new to this group so please forgive me if this post doesn't turn out right. I have come into possession of an old Krupp Drilling which was made in Essen. It is a beautiful gun with very intricate engraving work.
I have just begun to educate myself on this type of gun and have had some success identifying the German proofing marks of that era.
I can easily see the Crown/U, Crown/S, Crown/W, and Crown/G proofing marks and believe I understand what these indicate. It is also easy to see the gun's serial#: 6359 and 16/1 and 16 in a circle indicating the shotgun gauge. For some reason someone stamped the serial# right over some of the other numbers making them difficult to read. I used chalk in attempt to make reading the markings easier. I believe the numbers that are partially covered are as follows:
118.35 (Barrel length ??)
11.02 (Barrel diameter ??)
1137 (Date gun was made?? November 1937??)
I also see the letters 'AK' (assumed to be gun makers initials?)
and what looks like 'SS' (??)
Also visible are some other markings that appear to be shields (??)
The barrels are marked with shot information but I do not see anything that looks like a Nitro stamp. I understand this indicates the type of ammunition this gun fires but not exactly clear on what these markings mean.
Any input about these markings, this gun, or it's estimated value would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Brian
Welcome to the forum.
None of your pictures are coming up, all show a 404 Google error.
I suggest you post this on the German gun sub-forum here. The reference to Krupp on your barrels means Krupp made them, rather than making the entire gun.
Regards
Ken
Thanks Ken. I was afraid of that. Not exactly sure how to upload pics to this forum. When I click on the add images button it asks for a URL address of the photo. Is there a way to upload pics directly here?
Brian
That worked. I can't tell from the pics who the maker might have been...Geo
The "SS" may stand for maker Sauer and Sohns.
The 16g shotgun load is the standard continental 1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) and the pressure of that load would have been about 8500 psi. I did not see a chamber length mark.
28.3 grams shot = 1 oz.
2.5 grams "Schultze" = 38.5 grains
The original "Schultze" was 14 grain/dram = 38.5/14 = 2 3/4 Dr. Eq.
Brian, the guns appears to be very well used and please do not attempt to shoot the gun until it has been evaluated by a drilling specialist
Note the barrel steel would have been supplied by Krupp. To the best of my knowledge Krupp did not build complete guns, with the exception of some large military pieces. No small arms & no sporting guns.
Drhaggs,
2Piper is correct, Krupp,Essen didn't make your drilling, rather they made the steel used in the barrels. The drilling was made for the "trade", by someone in Zella-Mehilis. This , then leaves out Sauer and Son, as someone mentioned the ss might stand for. The 118,35 is the bore( not groove or bullet)diameter, expressed in gauge measurement. In my experience, barrels with this mark usually have a groove diameter of .358-.359", making American 35 Rem. bullets useable. The 11,02 means the gun was proofed in November, 1902. The 1137 is the register/log number at the Zella-Mehilis proof house, for Nov.1902. The small letters/stamps are marks placed by workers, to show their labor, for payment and responsibility purposes. You didn't mention the service loads, for which the gun was proofed, you may be able to glean from them, whether it was intended for Black or Nitro powder. If it shows Sch.P., this is black powder. If it shows G.B.P.( rifle flake powder), then it is nitro. If it is for a St,M.G( steel jacket bullet) it is nitro, if Bl.G( lead bullet), then black powder. I hope you find this helpful, It would be more so, if I had the gun "in hand". BTW, a 16 in a circle means it has a 65mm( 2 1/2--2 9/16") chambers.
Mike
If the chamber length is NOT indicated 65mm or 70mm you have to assume that it is 65mm until you can have it measured. A 2 3/4"(70mm) shell will easily chamber in a 65 mm chamber but the crimp will open into or beyond the forcing cone raising chamber pressures. Just a reminder that modern ammo even light target loads runs near max chamber pressures to operate modern auto loaders. RST and others make ammo for short chambered 16ga(65mm) firearms.
As far as rifle calibers go it is a crapshoot I have a old drilling back-action hammer gun with .344 bore and .364 groove. This gun has tall narrow lands and wide grooves. Mine is a 9.3x72R.
"If it shows Sch.P., this is black powder."
Mike: I have no knowledge of other than Belgian proof marks, but the Lion over SCH or EC was the optional smokeless powder proofs used 1891-1924 for "Schultze" or "EC" powders, both of which were most certainly Bulk Smokeless Powder.
We've also seen Belgian proof with the Lion over M for Mullerite (another 42 gr. Bulk Smokeless) and Lion over E.C. no. 3; a 33 grain Smokeless
Dr. Hause is correct as that voluntary semi-smokeless proof of Schultze powder being some powder different from proof rules & is noted on the side of the scattergun tubes that were sourced from the Schilling forge. The solid projectile tube was also sourced from the Schilling forge. Black would have been something like NGPM 71... which may be seen on muzzleloaders, etc. Why pay for a voluntary proof of another black powder?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
Wow thanks for all of your information! Looks like I posted this in the right place! I've learned a lot here. I'm not planning on firing this gun any time soon. Just adding her to my collection. What's the best way to get a 1902 German Drilling like this appraised? Any ideas of its approximate value? (Not that I'm selling. Just curious)
Brian
The gauge system was a rather crude method of marking rifle bores in that from .450" (51.05 ga) down they only seem to have marked in increments of .010".
118.35 gauge converts to .340" (8.64mm) bore size. Next size up the ladder is 51.05 @ .350" 8.89mm). Your actual bore size could be anywhere between these two dimensions. A 9.3x72R barrel I have was nitro proofed in 1913 & is marked as 8.8mm.
I have a 1907 8x58 Sauer barrel which is marked 172.28 (.300"/7.62mm) It has a groove dia of about .321". I forget the actual bore size but is larger than .300" yet smaller than .310" (156.14 ga). These gauges are calculated on the exact same basis as are the regular shotgun gauges. All gauges from 50 (.453") & larger ( lower numbers) are listed as whole number gauges with diameters carried to three decimal places.
Beginning with .450" down through .300" the diameters are in .010" increments with the gauge number being listed to two decimal places.
A barrel proofed for smokeless powder should have a crown over N stamped on it.
Drew, Raimey,
You are correct about that.
I'll have to review my notes on the AK mechanic but the SS is the renowned tube mechanic Stephan Schilling(sometimes seen as Str. Schilling) and he may have been in Suhl( Stephan Schilling, Gothaerstraße 82 closer to WWII) or was back & forth between Suhl & Zella-Mehlis. But he was a staple for the tube effort on the wares of the Zella-Mehlis offerings. The possibility exists that there were a couple of generations.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse