Watching the potential victims of the London terror attacks walking with their hands in the surrender position is illustratively symbolic. It is an emasculated Western Civilization surrendering to an atavistic, barbaric, satanic cult.

All this brought to them, and us, by Marxist governments seeking a border-less world and of course, more power. Fully exposed is the spinelessness of the states to protect the good and punish and forbid the evil.

As Mark Steyn stated, governments keep building little walls around small targets but refuse to simply build a big wall around their countries to keep the murderers out. Of course the PM of England's primary concern is that the victims don't condemn their murderers.

No, they had their hands raised and open as they passed armed Police Officers. Most people present, civilian and unarmed and off duty police fought against the attackers with whatever they had. Some now dead and some in hospital fighting for their lives and that of others. Lagopus.....

Lagopus.
As a UK passport holder thank you for your civilized response to this disgusting trumpery. My fault, for course for succumbing to reading the topic but sadly, another individual to ignore
Jeremy

I know I'm getting sick and tired of that old bat walking out that door and telling everyone that, "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of the latest massacre."

Then turning around and walking back in that door, saying, "Lock it up real tight, boys."

BUT..She is tightening up on use of the internet..That'll stop em for sure..

Europe is a shythole. So glad my grandparents had the good sense to leave. Fack 'em. Wonder which big mouth is going to come up with the 3 billion the US was giving to that dumb arse Paris thing. C'mon Sunny Boy, step up. Macron? Merkel? LOL.


__________________________
Talk is cheap. Keith Richards
https://youtu.be/1WdqeEM9qXY

Lagopus, do you have any information regarding the following report:


What are "community police"? The report I was reading referenced the Guardian as a source.

Unfortunately, Europe including the UK, has been letting in the Islamist wolves for so long I'm not sure they will ever get control of their jihadist problem.

The PC culture and lack of any ability to defend oneself has resulted in the citizens ending up like sheep waiting for the slaughter.

I feel very sorry for the victims but until someone in authority says enough it will continue unabated.

canvasback,
I think the "community police", are the unarmed local police.
Mike

Perhaps, if they had not so much gun control in England, this very unfortunate situation may have been kwelled more quickly than what it took the armed authorities to respond and then handle the situation???

They catch us off guard also, but as of late more and more armed citizens are stopping assaults that are not considered terrorism and may be considered good muscle memory practice.

While this is a VERY BIG problem, the solution is not very complex. Deport, immediately, every Muslim who is not a native born Briton. NOW! The rules have been established. I doubt anyone of the people who were indiscriminately murdering folks asked them if they had children or were employed or any of those things. They just KILLED them. indiscriminate deportation is way more humane than MURDER. Where to put them?...nearest Muslim country, they don't get a choice. They found their way there, let them find their way home. Harsh? You betcha...Violation of rights? Most likely, but no more than killing people just because they were there. World opinion? F**K em...Enough is enough...

Agree. It will take about 10 more of these in greater size and scope for the pacifists to perhaps wake up and start wholesale expulsion, no exceptions.

There should be no trial for whoever is arrested in connection. Just trot them out blindfolded as they scream and protest, then shoot them by firing squad on Picadilly. If two or three are innocent, so be it. If anyone protests it being lawless and cruel, say nothing. Not one word. Let the press raise all the hell they want. Desperate times require desperate measures. Britain may very well come under marshal law.

But it's got to get worse for that to happen, and it is going to get worse, a lot worse.
JR

Unless, of course, it was you whom they marched out blind folded, and executed, without due process, eh John? I'm pissed off re the terrorism too, but due process of the law is the only civilized way to handle these situations. It is costly, but what if the wrong guy was pulled out of a line up? Everyone is entitled to due process imho, but once convicted, and no shadow of doubt, execute the sentence, and do it quickly.

How many of the murdered people were the "Right" people?

While I agree with my friend John that this is the right course of action for a God fearing country to pursue, and while I am grieved for the British citizens who have suffered and died, I remain even more concerned for the fate of my own country. This is also what we should be doing.

Consider .....How much responsibility does the current citizenship of a country bear for the sins of their forefathers? How often are the sins of the fathers visited upon the following generations? Tough questions to answer. While we (Americans) have had our shameful military "leaders" ...... Custer, Sherman, etc., England has as well. I will mention but one. Banastre Tarleton ....... the "Sherman" of the Revolution. Hard to forget him when you live where I do, adjacent to my sister state of South Carolina. He is remembered as "Bloody Ban", because he gave no quarter to those trying to surrender. Do the citizens of a nation have to bear some of the recrimination for their predecessor's failings? It's according to how one interprets the Scriptures, I guess.

http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/tarleton.html

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/christiancrier/files/2014/06/Sins-of-the-Father.jpg

Until God's people get the "stomach" to do what needs to be done there will be no lasting peace. To quote John Roberts ..... "But it's got to get worse for that to happen, and it is going to get worse, a lot worse. JR".

God help us, I am afraid that is the truth.

SRH

You will be ignoring one of the finest English trained gunsmiths working in the new world. I consider Mr. Flynn's opinion on the going on in England to be very worthwhile reading.

Best,
Ted

The time is coming, and quickly, when you will not feel so generous.
JR

Up to this point, I haven't seen any 'news' reports or other speculation that any of the murdered, surviving victims, or any of their extensive networks, were in the wrong in any way. I wonder, if truck and van rental companies were held liable, would their rental exclusions look coincidentally similar to just one community. At least until the next new trend of the month pops up.

PCSO is a Police Community Support Officer. They are not trained policemen but act in communities to carry out routine work for which the trained police force has little time.

The three criminal losers responsible for this attack were all dead within eight minutes of the call received by the police that notified them of the incident. Several nationalities were caught up in the atrocity on Saturday night. The image of folk with their hands up is no more symbolic than seeing a number of innocent North American citizens lying face down after some kind of incedent, adopting that position because security forces need to bring order to chaos.

In the the U.K. we value our freedom as much as any decent civilised country. I don't come on to this site to discuss politics, or debate the arming of the police or citizens. I come to discuss and be informed about side by side sporting guns.

I'll stand by my country right or wrong. I have fought for my Queen and country against criminal terrorism on our own soil. I have lost friends and comrades, brothers in arms.

There is no surrender to this criminality here in the U.K. And writing that Europe is a sh1thole is disrespectful in the extreme, probably ignorant too, though I don't know the experience of the writer of that comment.

I am aware that others on here enjoy the give and take of commentary on world affairs, but I'd appeal for more considered remarks and a return to the broad subject of all our interest, fine sporting weapons.

Tim

Opinions formed from the presentations of the media are skewed, twice over now & not worth the argument, Gentlemen.
O.M

trw999

You shouldn't take it so hard. It can always be worse. You could live in Nova Scotia.


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https://youtu.be/K56soYl0U1w

I think, sad as it may be, that in both the UK and the US not much will actually happen. The attacks will continue and get worse. The Muslim attackers know that both countries lack the will, the stomach, to do much. The people being attacked, will....Talk and talk and talk and talk.

The US, UK, Canada and others don't lack the will. The acknowledged "mistake" of invading Irag really set this whole ISIS thing off. All the queen's horses and president's soldiers haven't made an inch in Afghanistan in your longest war.. Millions have been killed, wounded, drowned, dispossessed of home and country. It's sometimes better to talk, talk talk than war, war, war. The US has sacrificed thousands of its best and spent nearly a trillion dollars of its treasure with war. Promising to bomb the shit out of them isn't an improvement.

Lonesome, Nova Scotia brought responsible government and freedom of the press to the British North American colonies, which then included what became part of the United States. We've fallen a long way from abuse of our natural resources. In Days of Sail of ocean commerce, one Nova Scotia port had as much tonnage under registry as the Republic of France. We used to provide more leaders to the country per capita than any other part of the country, still have more institutions of higher learning, including the two leading undergraduate schools; the third a few miles across the border in New Brunwick. It is a pleasant place to live. A hunting and fishing paradise, no elbow-to-elbow on salmon and trout streams and lakes. Come up and I'll show you around.

Thanks for the offer, King, but it sounds absolutely dreadful. I'll put it on my itinerary though... right after Newark.

Europe needs to relax. I'm sure Brussels can fix what ails it. They have the ultimate set of tools.

https://youtu.be/QN_Nod65e7o


___________________________
Yap Yap. Keith Richards
https://youtu.be/DorE2lZqQzc

Travel is a great education. The most education Americans ever got was dispersal to outposts of the American Empire around the world. Imagine the surprise and elation of millions of common and not uncommon men and women discovering for the first time the great cities and cultures that existed a thousand years before Europeans landed on your shores. Some thought Newark was something!

I DON'T REMEMBER EVER SEING AN ARMED POLICEMAN IN ENGLAND THE 2-3 TIMES I HAVE BEEN THERE.THEY CARRY BILLYCLUBS TO SUBDUE THE
CRIMINALS CARRYING WEAPONS. SAD AND STUPID

Thank you so much Tim for putting it so well. You fought for our country and I was a Police Office for over 30 years with 18 of it as a Tactical Firearms Unit Officer. We both therefor have some knowledge of terrorism in the U.K.

Canvasback, I can't really imagine any Police Officer running away. In fact one British Transport Officer tackled one of the terrorists armed with nothing more than his truncheon; he is now in hospital with multiple stab wounds. Another off duty Officer physically tackled one and he too is in the same situation plus three other unarmed Officers hospitalised who also stepped in.

British Police Officers are not routinely armed. All forces have some sort of armed response unit on call at all times. I would be on normal unarmed duty until required. I carried my kit in the vehicle and would either have to collect a firearm or have one brought to me. Usually used in pre-planned operations or when the mess hit the fan or after the armed response unit had contained the situation. London is a large force in a small area and can afford to have an armed tactical unit on standby at all times and I suspect most larger city's have the same. British armed Officers are all volunteers who are only accepted for training if they have a clean disciplinary record are known to have a stable temprement and can work under stress. A typical course starts with about 16 applicants and ends with 3 or 4 as the course is so intense. Extremely high standards of accuracy with each type of firearm is required and it's not just a matter of standing still and putting the shots in the bull in your own time. That standard has to be maintained; missing is not an option and you have to re-qualify on each weapon every three months. A typical year for me for training would consist of four days with handgun, four days tactics with handgun, four days pure tactical training, four days with shotgun, four days with H&K MP5, four days with light sniping rifle for urban use, four days with heavy sniper rifle for rural use, four days diplomatic protection training, one week of sniper training in tactics, one day with use of baton rounds and CS munitions and one day destruction of animal training. These would each be spread out on a three monthly rotation and the need to qualify each time on each weapon. The only weapon I was not qualified to use was the Styer AUG .223 as that was what was carried by the armed response units. Most Officers are not armed but those who are can be trusted to do the job pretty well. Lagopus.....

The unarmed Bobbie could exist because of the respect for life and law the British people have had. Now the police face a different sort, cowards who murder. It's time for the ordinary Bobbie to be armed.

Lagopus, first, thank you for the detailed response.

I asked about the report because it seemed pretty odd to me (although I've seen video of Toronto officers standing back while a citizen subdued a armed attacker, those officers were disciplined IIRC) and I couldn't find any more info over here.

Regarding the training....WOW! While you aren't describing the average officer, that is still a significant amount of training compared to what is expected from the average armed officer in Canada.

I'm sure it's possible and may have happened, but I can't recall any headline grabbing misuse of a duty weapon by any London law enforcement officials. By most accounts, the incident took some eight minutes to get under control, and apparently some unarmed officers received serious injury.

It would seem so much more intuitive to arm all your law enforcement officers, particularly while on duty with all the training. Minutes probably seemed like hours while everyone was waiting for the response team. Thanks also for the explanation and sharing your experiences.

Where'd OP go?

You guys actually believe the Brits would run from a fight??

Come on what are you talking about. Have you seen or heard about their football fans?

They routinely take on whole cities.

Not going to happen. Ever!!

A country can arm or not arm its police force as they see fit. I have no problem with that at all. In most of my area it is rural in nature and the next closest armed policeman or policewoman may be many miles away. At night there may be only two on at any time and they may be 20-30 miles away. You can do the math but a mile a minute is hard on country roads. So our armed policemen have to be armed and almost entirely self sufficient. For that reason I think the pump shotgun has become the backup gun of choice and seems to be the primary weapon after dark.

After these attacks I expect police departments the world over will be reviewing their procedures, arms in police hands and training. I hope some good comes out of this mess.

Interesting to see the press coverage of the incident. Leading Italian daily Corriere della Sera's reporter praised the heroic Londoners who responded to the attackers with bottles, chairs and tables, saying that the casualties would have been more had the citizens not reacted.

UK media say very little about the citizens response. Different cultures, different values.

Maybe the football fans should let loose on the Muzlims...

Didn't the London Muzlim mayor tell the people to run, hide and report.

England is gone....

Joe, our mother country may be the last country standing. I think of its fighting qualities as durable, "lasting, not transitory, resisting wear and decay." OED

She used her colonials in assault where they performed splendidly. I interviewed her youngsters flying off to the Falklands; what a cocky bunch.

I think of ISIS as manageable over time. The trick is doing it without losing the magnificent benefits of our civil and democratic societies.

Keep cool. We've survived worse.