http://www.savagearms.com/fox/

Looks like a Turkish made gun based on the A grade Fox. One thing they got wrong is to list a 26" 20 but not a 30" 20. 26" 20's are not as much in the buyers interest as a nice 30 or better yet 32" barrels would be.

Yes the video says "presented by Savage Arms" not manufactured but i hope it sells well anyway but $5000. hasn't been a good price point for Turkish made guns, if that is where it is made? CSMC? The gentleman shown working on one is tattooed.

Did anyone hear any rumors of this gun? I found it by accident looking for a rifle.

First time I've heard about this offering from Savage,thanks for the link. It does state that the wood is American Walnut, odd for a Turk made gun. Would be interesting to find out where it was made.

Best,

Greg

I called Savage directly. This just got added to their line. Tried to see if it could be made with 30-32" 20 barrels. They will call back. It's so new the person I talked to knew nothing beyond what's on the web site but did offer to find out and call me back or email my answers. Their customer service has been excellent in the past.

I would like to see the level of fit and finish but no maker is going to try to sell at that price point and not have a good item. It just won't sell. If it does end up as true Fox design and has a high level of fit and finish I'd like to order one stocked but in the white. What a great starting point for a custom project. With my luck it's just a A&D Turkish double with the side areas left thick too mimic a Fox. Soon as I get answers I'll post them.

looks like c grade or better wood...does not belong on an a grade gun...and the price? well, good luck wid dat...

I see more CSMC characteristics than Turkish ones.
terc

I would say CSMC. The fences have a resemblance to the RBL. Checkering doesn't look hand cut. The big put off for me is the simple engraving; people buy a SxS for two reasons: 1) gun dymanics 2) embelishments. I would have liked to seen laser cut "C" grade engraving pattern and then have it hand chased by Giovanelli Incisori. Too much money for such simple engraving.

looks more like a production line gun where the first time most parts meet is in final assembly....not sayin that's a bad thing....but not for 5000....

Maybe its just me...But all of these Turkish guns are starting to look pretty much alike...I am NOT saying they aren't good...just sort of generic?

Was just me but at the twenty two second point or so in the video the man is stocking a sidelock.... Maybe it's my old eyes

looks like it is 3 or 4 different videos pieced together....that alone makes me not want to be one of the first in line .....and $5000 for a basic box lock with the fox name stamped on it....maybe $3000 list price.....

Everything I saw looked like the same gun, a box lock. It did say on the barrel length 26" or 28". I realize I'm a bit out of step with the times but 28" is my all time favorite barrel length for a double. I have done some pretty fair shooting with both 26" & 30" but can't say as either were an improvement over 28". I am rather short & well fit by a 14" length of pull. To me a double with barrels approximately twice the pull length have an aesthetic look to them, neither Stubby Short nor Pole Vaulting Long, just an all around pleasing appearance. Plus I shoot them as well or better than any other length.
I'm not fixing to order one of these though @ 5K.

2-piper look at the 26 second mark in the video, that's a sidelock, I agree with gunut it's a pieced together video which makes me wonder "why" on a $5000 dollar gun would they have to piece together a video, what is the quality of the gun if they have to use a pieced together video? And at $5000 there are a lot of options out there.

There was one video segment of them working on a sidelock gun. That why I wondered if this was a gun made over seas. Savage never made a sidelock gun that I am aware of. Still waiting for a reply from Savage. I get the feeling this gun was posted to their web site a little early. Can't find any at any dealer they list on their web site. In fact none even knew about it but it came up on the web for them just none in inventory or on order.

I am not sure but the sidelock gun mentioned appears to be an over/under of A10 shape?

I agree.

You're not supposed to notice details like that guys.

The video isn't for 'gun' guys, sort of like how the 'Tin Cup' whiskey commercial isn't for rock climbers.

Maybe it's the same ad agency. The narration sounds similar.

Well . . . it's not based on the Fox action. The ad describes it as an A&D boxlock. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not a Fox.

The Turkish SKB's and Dickinsons sell for $2500-3500 less.

I guess I messed up everyones fun, sorry about that !

It's made by CSMC and is nothing but an RBL with cosmetic changes. They won't sell @ $5K. No need for a 26" barrel offering either, 28", 30" or 32".
JR

I didn't see any video. Went back just now & relooked & didn't see a link for one. When I opened the link in the original post I get a slideshow of still shots & they're all box locks. Under details it's offered in both 12 & 20 with either 26" or 28" in both gauges.

OK I found the video, had not realized that was a link, went back the third time & just started clicking everything & finally found it down at the bottom. Didn't look like an ordinary link.

Its as much a FOX as that side plated box lock imported a couple years ago was an L C Smith..... I don't even see a barrel extension??......put a nostalgic name on a cheap made boxlock and see if the numbnuts come running.....

Definitely a reprofiled RBL.

If I tell you a rooster dips snuff, look under his wing for the can...
JR

Ha! Good one Mr. Chief Justice. Best thing on the board in a long time.

Any guess on the business decision that resulted in this?

CSMC has been licensed the Fox Trademark. They have been making 20 gauge Fox guns for quite some time. Certainly they are capable of making a 12.

What can Savage possibly add to the equation?

Nothing. This offering isn't going to develop any "legs". There are piles of better second-hand sxs shotguns in $5000 range.

"Marketing legs are developed by offering long barrel smallbores" Too bad about the Savage effort. They just don't know.

and they most likely have a pile of 26 and 28in barrels lying around and are trying to figure out how they can still make a hardy profit with them.....

Are you kidding me? With an Anson forend latch? Give me a break.

SRH

I am curious if there is anything about it mechanically that is even Fox. It does
not look like it on the surface. Surprising since the fox mechanism is not complicated at all.

It is engraved like a Sterlingworth. If you want to call it a A grade Fox at least engrave it like one.

This is a smart move by Tony G. He talked somebody into this at Savage. Good way to extract some money from Vista Outdoor.
JR

Maybe it is just you, certainly not to me. I own two Turkish .410 S x Ss and they look NOTHING alike, and neither of them looks like this new gun.

Yildiz .... black chrome barrels, typical box lock action, alloy receiver



Dickinson .... high polish blue, "roundish" body, trigger plate action, 30" barrels





What is the nature of the "generic-ness" you see?

I certainly agree on the unattractiveness of the short barrels. Lordy, there's plenty of them to go around already.

SRH

The naive double buyer demographic must be large enough for a go at it.

Where is the video?

Scroll to near the bottom of the link in the first posting and there is a video presentation just less than a minute long.
If you see Teddy.R.,,you went too far.


5K for the gun seems high to me, I usually ask myself what else is around for that price and a lot comes to mind. Used Parkers, 21's, orig Fox's ect.
But many people want new and don't want to mess with used. They like the comfort of a warranty. Plus MSRP is just that,,a suggestion. Market will decide the price or it just won't sell.

Well, it's not Turkish after all. Nor is it "Foxish", except somewhat from external appearance. Anson push-rod on the forend, so that's not Fox. A&D action, which isn't Fox. H&H "extractors"--I think that's supposed to be ejectors--so Southgate, which isn't Fox either.

Savage did something similar when they came out with the Model B. Looked a bit Foxish on the outside, but was Stevens on the inside. This gun, no doubt, is much classier than that. But I don't think it's any closer to being a Fox. Could be a nice A&D boxlock, however . . . and these days, you don't get one of those for much less than $5,000 if it has many bells and whistles.

I believe that CSMC is just trying to pick up some more sales at a level which is considerably lower than their starting point of the Fox CE grade, which I think is around $19,500. Priced at 1/4 of the CE msrp, you just can't expect a whole lot of desireable features. Made in the US is one of those features.

rapidfire

Spend under 2k and buy a real Fox A grade. Spend another grand and make it look new if you want and you will have a real Fox.

Yes Larry all our points are valid but it does offend some to call what you described as a Fox A Grade. And would it have killed them to at least give it the proper A Grade engraving? I'd still like to see one with 32" 20 ga. barrels but not a 5K.

Aren't the CSMC Fox guns rated for steel shot?

The RBL's are steel compatable. This gun has a lot of RBL in it methinks! Let's play. All the dislike aside what choices exist for a SxS gun of RBL quality today? Please don't say something used. I am talking about a new, fresh out of the box, gun. Spanish? Pretty much gone. Merkel? OK, similar price. Some would argue nicer, I'm not going to. Beretta still making SxS's? I don't know. Other Italian makers? again, don't know. If you do post them up! It's worth something to me not to buy anything Turkish. That is my personal conviction, that eliminates those guns for me. I would bet most of us here don't need to buy another gun, Turk or otherwise so it comes down to want. The price is about 1.5K off the mark. No mention of the weight, another fact some find important. I am not troubled by the lack of Fox attributes mentioned here. Nothing wrong with a A&D boxlock or Anson's FE release mechanism. A much better effort it appears, than the "Fox" model B! Not inclined to rush right out and buy another RBL for 5K, didn't pay but about half that for the one I own, and like.

Fire Away!

Chief

Chief,
I recently saw a Fausti DAE SxS in 20 ga. that looked nice which I believe cost around 4K+. I really like my Merkels but their price has really gone up since I bought mine several years ago.
Karl

Chief:

Last year, I found a 'new, old stock' B. Rizzini 'Upland EL SxS' in 20 gauge. I have 1K shells through it so far with no problems. This is a WLM import, to their specs.

It's a quality gun, with features that suit me. The triggers are a crisp 4 1/2 pounds. It shoots to point of hold.

Price sold it, and I likely would not have bought the current model 550, at least at retail price. That really is a different gun than mine, although it may suit you just fine. Street price on the new ones (choke tubes, single trigger, coin finish, engraved) seems to be about $4500.

B. Rizzini makes a good serviceable product.

Edit: I see where John Boyd has one with a straight grip and double triggers like mine, except with sideplates and choke tubes. $3700. Looks like a fair deal on a good gun if you can shoot 15" pull and I certainly can.

just sayin....if you are going to call it Fox A Grade.....it should be a FOX....and I see no reason that its not a straight copy of an original fox with up to date steel ....I mean the beauty of a Fox is in the guns simplification of its mechanisms....should be easy to copy and make a profit for a reasonable price.....
Just don't call this thing a FOX....because its not....

So there are some out there! That's good.

As was stated before in regards to the most recent L.C Smith, Zabala Hermanos? and Fox model B, no where near a Fox either! The use of the name doesn't guaranty the resulting gun an exact copy!

If CSMC is indeed making this gun for Savage they likely wouldn't devalue their graded Fox guns by producing what is in appearance a Sterlingworth level gun. Much as I would like them to!

Maybe it should be called the Faux!

Chief

Ha! It likely will be.

I'd about as soon have a Fox Model B as an RBL. Sure, the RBL is prettier, and might handle a little better, but the Model B won't break down as much as the RBL. You wouldn't believe all the problems of which I have first hand knowledge with RBL guns. Mostly the single triggers and ejectors. People just don't like admitting it. I have posted this on here before and had several here private message me and tell me they had problems with theirs, right out of the box.

If this so called Fox has anything at all to do with an RBL I wouldn't give it a second look. For $5K I can buy a helluva nice original Fox. In fact, I own several, including a very nice HE grade, and have never yet paid $5K for one of them.

SRH

One point: they are calling it a Fox, not an A. H. Fox.
JR

The same sort of thing was done with the CSMC over and under Model 21.......it's nothing remotely close to a Winchester Model 21. A joke, for sure and really not much of a surprise that it will be done again.

If the Japanese can 100 percent copy a Parker 30 plus years ago, I'm not sure why someone couldn't copy a Fox Sterlingworth with a snap on Forearm now. Put some decent American Walnut on it as well as options of 30 and 32" barrels and have at it. I truly wonder if the R&D folks at these various companies ever do any historical research before they trot something out. If you are going to call it a Fox then make it truly a Fox. Pretty uncomplicated innards as compared to a Parker.

what he said......

This has been going on for years. After Ithaca bought Lefever Arms Co of Syracuse NY they put on the market the Nitro Special which was absolutely nothing like the original Lefever. They marked it Lefever Arms Co, but with an Ithaca NY address. They were simply utilizing the Name Recognition which they by then owned.

Everyone seems to be doing it. I imagine Savage still owns the Fox name (maybe has some sort of arrangement with CSMC), so--for better or worse--they can call anything they want a Fox. The same way Marlin called sideplated guns made for them by Fausti and Zabala L.C. Smiths. And Webley & Scotts are now being made in Turkey, and don't look that much like W&S either.

Larry do manufactures reach out to writers like yourself and ask for input prior to rolling out something like this. Just seems like this was put together by a couple of Savage folks talking to CSMC and figuring how they could tweak a few things cosmetically and therefore create a new market. The reality is the market is there for a Fox gun that cloned the original in every way except for the possible addition of choke tubes and using steel shot. Just seems like not much research is done before hand, but I could certainly be wrong.

Hey, the PT Cruiser sure isn't a hot rod but lots of people spent their money to buy one and chrome accessories.

tut, you would be surprised at how often it happens exactly as you imagine it. Happens all the time and it's amazing how little market research goes into stuff. Especially in the "licensed" name end of things. I'm not speaking of guns so much as consumer goods like apparel, footwear and sporting gear. I'm guilty of doing it myself on occasion. You get immersed in a market and figure you know it all or all you need to know anyway. One reason I always liked partners. Hard for all of us to drive off the same cliff the same day.

Tut, I didn't have advance warning of this one, for sure! I expect they might have consulted with Michael McIntosh, who was the recognized go-to Fox guy in the gun writing world, were he still alive.

Browning did bring a bunch of us together when they brought out the Cynergy, but that was to put the gun through its paces after it had been designed and the prototypes had been produced but before it hit the market. (We did pick up some minor issues they took care of before they started selling the guns.) At that gathering, several of us tried to sell them on the idea of bringing back the BSS. We felt there was a decent market. They passed. Said that all the people who made sxs for Miroku had retired. And I guess, when you consider all the problems Ruger ran into making a sxs when they brought out the Gold Label, that might have made more sense than we thought it did.

How would every gun maker like to have been in Rugers bind a few years ago. They had so many orders they stopped taking orders when they exceeded a million plus back orders above their yearly production capacity. To catch up they stopped production of the newly redesigned Red Label and several other models to free up production capacity. Though some hoped the Red Label would return insiders knew it was highly unlikely. Shame the 28 ga was a sweet gun.

Certainly a better tribute to Ansley than the Fox Model B. Say the street price was $3,500.00, there are worse things a guy could do with his money. Hopefully that is where CSMC is going with this and good on them.

Lol, there won't be any $1500 discounts. You might get a couple hundred off from what few dealers decide to take orders for these, because there won't be any "stocking dealers".

Not real sure how Savage plans to put these out for sale. I personally think it's d.o.a.. but I could be wrong.
JR

I'd say $5K for a new A&D boxlock is a pretty tough neighborhood. Wonder what a new SKB sxs would sell for, if they were still made in Japan?