Hello,

I have not been active here for a couple of years. I'm back shooting and accumulating SXSs!

Just dug this out of a safe for a round of sporting clays and really enjoyed it.

But I don't know much about Lefever guns.

This pretty little this is in wonderful shape, and fits me well. It's a 30" 12 gauge.

My primary question is that while it is clearly marked "G" it is engraved significantly more extensively than any other "G grade" I have ever owned or encountered.

I look forward to your comments.

Thanks!

Mark

Welcome back, Mark!

Lefever Arms Co's engraving patterns became more complex over time and as lower grades were introduced. They were never standardized as were the patterns of other American makers' guns.

Your G's engraving is more like earlier F; I had a late F that looked like an E. All just part of the romance of Lefevers!

It's good to be back Terry.

Thanks for the prompt reply!

M

I agree with Terry, the engraving looks "F". I note from the pics the side plates are the earlier style with attached sears & also a bearing for the hammer axle (hole just under the C in Co). This would indicate to me a gun no later than the mid 20K serial number range & likely a "Two Hook" cocker. At this point the G grade carried only a simple line around the edge of the plate & a bit of "Sunburst" on screw heads etc. I have a G in the 29K SN range & it has already gone to the large single hook, frame mounted sears, no axle bearing in the plates & lost the cross pin through the frame where it steps down to the rounded contour. It still has only the line engraving. Around the 40K/50K SN range a scroll pattern was added to the G's side plates, I have never seen another G with ant animal scenes in the engraving.
Is the G marked on barrels only, frame only or both. I am wondering if this gun started life as & F & has subsequently been re-fit with a set of G grade barrels.

Mark Dube,

You said it's clearly marked "G"...where is it marked? There are plenty of examples of guns which are marked with one grade on the water table, and another on the barrels (if the barrels are even grade stamped).

Did you read that "G" on the water table?

As Terry B said, your gun definitely looks more like an "F".

-- Nudge

Mark, glad to hear you are back and in an "acquiring" state of mind. I always look forward to seeing your cast-offs! LOL

Actually going to be up near you next weekend, looking at an inherited cache. Might be some goodies....it is an "old money" family. I'll let you know if anything comes of it.

I just looked at my G sn 20,632 & it is marked G on the frame but not on the barrels. Also I failed to mention but this gun as well as the one in question here both have the adjustable sear engagement. My large hook G in the 29K range has it as well. At some point this seems to have been dropped on all grades below an E. My F in the 38K range does not have it.
A pivot lever, rod cocker E in the 10K range & the 29K range G are both adjustable from outside the plate. On the gun pictured here as well as my 20KG the side plates have to be removed & the screw turned from the inside. This is the screw near the bottom rear of the plates.

Wow! Thanks guys, lots of info!

Sorry to have started out with only 1/2 of the required information.

The gun is marked as to grade on receiver only, all parts serialized and matching.

Plainly marked G on frame bar. This was normal for this era to mark the grade only on the frame. It has been said that Lefevers with the grade marked on both frame & barrels are all Ithaca assembled guns, though I have some serious doubts on this. There seem to be to many out there marked this way for them all to be Ithaca.
It may well be that this gun was just mis-stamped for grade, it sure looks like an F in all details.

I agree with Miller's idea that this gun may have been mis-stamped for grade. I have a couple F Grade Lefevers very near this serial number range that have almost identical engraving on the left sideplate and action. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see an egret in flight on the right sideplate since that was a common theme on F Grades in this era. I have also never seen any other G Grades with birds or game scene engraving, and the amount of scroll is much more extensive than even later G Grade guns. The figure of the wood however, seems very appropriate for a G Grade.

Mark Dube,

Well there you have it...clearly stamped "G" but very definitely NOT a G. I have a G right in that serial range and it has only a single line engraved around each plate. Unlike others comments, I cant say i have ever seen a gun with a frame stamp that seemed wrong...only barrel stamps.

I am definitely NOT of the opinion that any gun with a letter on the barrels was assembled by Ithaca. There are way too many of these. Frankly, I think people way overestimate the number of Ithaca guns. And the Ithaca guns have several hallmarks which tip them off, as explained by Buck Hamlin in an LACA newsletter, and at least one DGJ arricle, as I recall.

Also i believe the Ithaca assembled guns don't start to sprinkle in until roughly the 38xxx range, per the LACA.

Neat gun!

- Nudge

I think we may all be over thinking Lefevers. I doubt they ever had a large inventory completed and sitting on hand waiting for orders. If a customer wanted a F grade I can see them taking a G grade and having the engraving upgraded to F style. After all F and G were the same basic gun. Perhaps they just got an order for a G grade with F grade engraving. I'm sure they accommodated special orders all the time. Might have done the upgrade for just a couple dollars more.

The gun looks all original to me so I think whatever was done to blur the G-F grade was done at the factory intentionally to fill an quick order or fill a special order. Could have been as simple as getting an order for a gun with F grade engraving and only G grades were on hand. No need to build one just alter this one. Maybe they upgraded the engraving to close the deal.

Or it could have been a simple misunderstanding by the engraver.

Or perhaps it was intended to be an ungraded Lefever "Presentation" gun and someone simply failed to read the order? With Lefever guns one guess as to "why things is" is as good as another.
And may I add a case in point, as about 2 years ago I purchased a later vintage Ithaca production DS Grade 12-bore Lefever; which I purchased because it was so danged odd. The gun was in all respects a G grade gun with standard G grade Damascus barrels, dolls head rib extension, and cocking indicators; otherwise it was DS quality with no engraving, plain wood, and standard DS checkering pattern. The gun wasn't perfect; but was in extremely good condition, and had never seen any hard usage. When I told Buck Hamlin about this Lefever he said he never seen another DS with those three features, and I allowed him to talk me out of that gun; but I still regret doing so.

A DS Grade with all of those G grade feature is another variation I have never seen. I can understand why you might regret letting it get away from you. I have a couple of the seldom seen DS Grades that are identical to H Grade Twist barreled guns, other than the grade stamp. This would also include LAC buttplates, and capped pistol grip stocks. But there is no reason to believe they were assembled that way by Ithaca from H grade parts.

I also agree with KY Jon that it is unlikely they ever had a large inventory of unsold guns on hand, or a large inventory of unfinished parts for that matter. This was a company that was having enough recurring financial problems that Dan Lefever was forced to take on investors and relinquish control to the Durston family. Shortages of parts probably led to many of the variations we see, when parts intended for a higher grade were used to complete an order. It is for this reason that I also agree with Miller and Nudge that far too many guns are attributed to Ithaca production just because they have some unusual features. I think it's absurd to believe that the Durstons had several years worth of unfinished parts on hand when they sold the Lefever name, equipment and the inventory to Ithaca. They were obviously more interested in ramping up production of automotive gears and transmissions than in expanding production of shotguns. But I have no more to back up that statement than those who continue to insist that Ithaca built a large percentage of the Syracuse Lefever type guns.

Thanks guys!

That's precisely what I figured but as always your experience and references add credibility.

You also reminded me that the DGJ set sitting ignored in "cave" is due to be reviewed.

Keith, the right side is almost identical to the left, the wings on the "turnip" are posed slightly differently though.



Mark

At what approximate serial number did Ithaca start production of Lefevers?

Tamid,

It was the Lefever NAME that Ithaca was after.

While Ithaca did assemble some guns of the original Lefever Arms design (Dan Lefever's design), they did so primarily by piecing together guns from existing parts stock. How many of these they made is a source of debate among Lefever fans, but it was only a small percentage, and the serial numbers vary sporadically, but the earliest guns of Ithaca assembly are in the 38xxx range. But understand that that doesnt mean that Ithaca "took over" Lefever production at that point. It just means examples start to be peppered in starting in that range.

After finishing those Syracuse Lefevers there was a gap in time of a couple years before Ithaca then introduced a brand new line of guns of THEIR OWN design, which they "branded" Lefever Nitro Specials. They also made Lefever branded trap guns, and the short-lived "A-Grade."

See Walt Snyder's book for a breakdown of production and serial numbers, but suffice to say, aside from the small number of original side plate "Syracuse Lefevers" Ithaca assembled from parts (roughly circa 1916-1919), all of the "Lefever Arms Co" guns which say "Ithaca, NY" have absolutely nothimg to do with Dan Lefever, or any designs he ever created.

The owners of Ithaca were shrewd business men. They acquired the very best brand name of American doubles, and then used that name to sell the heck out of a mid-priced line of guns. In fact, Ithaca made roughly 4x the number of "Lefever" guns than Dan Lefever ever did.

Such was the value of Dan's name in those days. In earlier years Dan Lefever built the finest doubles in America.

- Nudge

It is noted that all Ithaca built "Lefever Arms Co" guns of Ithaca design both Nitro Special & A grade are numbered above 100,000.
I own the highest known numbered gun in the side plated series, unless another has surfaced recently. It is an Ithaca assembled gun, is H grade with DS wood. It has a different SN on the barrels & frame only 4 digits apart. Both appear to be over stamped from a previous number. One number is 73,038 & the other is 73,042. Without getting it out to look I forget which is on the barrels & which is on the frame. It has 28" "Best London Twist" barrels, is an extractor gun, but was fitted with an Infallible SST. I can't prove it but highly suspect this was done at the Ithaca factory. It has the doll's head, cocking indicators & late type scroll engraving on the side plates, & is stamped H.
The wood however I say is DS as it has no escutcheon or tip in the forend & the stock has an uncapped half pistol grip, both features of the DS grade.
Could be a "Lunch Box Special" for all I know.

To the uninitiated how would one know if they were looking at an Ithaca assembled Lefever, an Ithaca produced Lefever or a Dan Lefever?

As Miller previously noted, the Ithaca produced double barreled Lefevers all have six digit serial numbers over 100,000. They do not have sideplates. The majority of these were the Lefever Nitro Special guns built between 1921 and 1947. Dan Lefever left the Lefever Arms Co. around early 1902 and started production of the D.M. Lefever crossbolt gun in Syracuse, N.Y., Defiance, Ohio, and Bowling Green, Ohio. As noted, they all had a Greener type crossbolt, and less than 1200 were produced in total. These all had a four digit serial number.

Personally, I'd love to know how some folks decide so definitely that certain sideplate Lefevers were assembled by Ithaca. To listen to some of them, virtually any Lefever with non-standard features is judged to be assembled by Ithaca. As I said earlier, it is highly doubtful that Lefever Arms Co. had several years worth of unfinished parts on hand when they sold the parts to Ithaca. Companies just don't tie up that much capital in unfinished inventory. I have read that those with a letter P or T stamped on the forend hanger are Ithaca assembled, and tend to agree... but that could also include guns sent back to Ithaca for re-barreling or other repairs. It also appears that Ithaca Gun Co. ran out of Lefever made English Walnut stocks, and made some stocks in Ithaca, N.Y. out of Black Walnut.

There are no surviving production records to say definitively one way or another. I think that returns for re-barreling or repairs could also be the case with some of those Lefevers with serial numbers as early as the 38,000 range that are attributed to Ithaca. A smattering of early unfinished frames may have been found and finished after the move to Ithaca, but it makes absolutely no sense to think that Lefever Arms Co. had thousands of unfinished frames for as much as 15 years prior to the sale to Ithaca.

I once thought that a 12 Ga. FE Lefever I own was probably assembled by Ithaca because it has E Grade features and engraving. It's serial number dates it to 1902 if we can believe the serial number list. I'm much more inclined to think it was built in Syracuse now that I've learned more. When we get into the highest five digit serial numbered sideplate guns, especially those with mismatched features such as Miller's H Grade with the 73,xxx serial number, it becomes much easier to attribute those guns to Ithaca production.

Side plate F grade LEFEVER ARMS Co guns



ITHACA Produced/Assembled Side plate clues:


Huge clue - "Ithaca NY" rarely found on the side plate guns



Ithaca marketed/ produced Lefever Nitro Special box lock

Keith. Also note in regards to the E/F grade. I don't understand the common confusion - wishful thinking perhaps- but late Syracuse F grade guns had a delightful game birds in circles motif. I have seen them advertised as "mis-tamped Es" or "lightly stamped such that the bottom leg of the E doesn't show "

Late F grade:

Keith and Marks_21 thank you for the explanation and the pictures. That along with some googling of the various models has helped me understand the different grades and who produced them.

Tamid,

The short answer is, if the gun says "Ithaca, NY" on it...it was made by Ithaca.

That covers everything except Syracuse Lefevers which were assembled from parts. A very small (as in "tiny") number of these have Ithaca, NY on them, because the sideplates were yet to be stamped at the time Ithaca acquired the remnants of the company. The rest of them say Syracuse, but have other identifying cues. Most obvious among these cues, are mismatched features per given grades.

There are some other more subtle marks, the details of which have been discussed on Lefever forum threads you can find, if you are so inclined to geek out.

- Nudge

Keith,

Your points are well taken. And one man's guess is as good as another. Like you, I find it hard to believe that the Durstans had thousands of guns worth of parts lying around. Its unlikely for ANY business, but especially so for a company in leaner times.

It is possible that some of the mixy-matching was done by the Durstans. Things like Krupp barrels on guns as low as H grade, and additional amounts of engraving per given grade are easily as attributable to the Durstans as to Ithaca.

But when you get to the markings...the forearm "P", the double stamped serial number on the barrels, and especially the "E" added to grade stamps for ejector guns, it makes more sense to me that a different management was doing this than the same one. Because altering markings dont move guns out the door in tougher times...but mixing parts and features will.

- Nudge

My G in the 23xxx serial number range seems to have F engraving but clearly marked "G" . It is listed for sale here.

Other than the H grade in the 73K range I mentioned I have only one other which "Might" be Ithaca assembled. This is an FE grade gun SN 38,025. Everything about the gun is F except the barrels. It has 30" Chain Damascus barrels. Chain Damascus is more commonly associated with E grade guns & there is an E stamped of these barrels. The Frame is marked F. All appearance to me is that it is an F grade gun fitted with E grade barrels. It has no other of the commonly referred to indications of Ithaca assembly. All serial numbers do match. Has a duck on one plate & quail on the other. Both are flying, not falling, & over appropriate vegetation, the duck over marsh plants & the quail over field plants.
When I bought this gun it was on consignment from an old gentleman who reportedly bought it New. Unfortunately I did not have the sense at the time to get his name & try to contact him for further information. He could quite possibly have told me when it was purchased which would have shed some light on who built it. I bought it in 1968, first gun I had to fill out the form 4477 on. depending on his age at time of purchase he could very well have bought it in proper sequence. I bought it at a Western Auto store in a town about 20 miles from where I live. This was my very first Lefever. I had read about them & had mentioned them to a co-worker. He had gone in this store & saw it & came to work that night & told me about it. I went the next day & bought it. This was in fact the first Genuine Lefever I had ever seen, had only seen the Ithaca Nitro's prior to this one.

Another Lefever, a C Grade, marked Ithaca, New York

Marks_21, I know about the evolution that led to more extensive engraving in the later guns, but the FE I mentioned earlier is a 1902 vintage, going by the serial number. It has quite a bit more engraving coverage than the one you provided a picture of, and it has Krupp Essen fluid steel barrels. The game scene engraving includes a setter and a pointer in circles on the sideplates, and a flying grouse on the trigger guard. It has gold plated triggers, and it has the sear adjusting screws on the sideplates. It also has the sculpted frame bottom, and the wood has the best marble cake figure I have seen on any F Grade. It would not be out of place on a C or even a B grade. If I was unscrupulous, it would be very easy to turn the F into an E, and no one who knew Lefevers would bat an eye.

This was my very first Syracuse Lefever. I met a guy in the parking lot of a local gun show who had two doubles and a Model 12 Winchester to sell. I bought the L.C. Smith 20 Gauge Ideal Grade with auto ejectors, and left the Lefever behind. He had given me his business card, so I called him a couple days later, and he still had the Lefever. He knew nothing about the guns as they had belonged to his late father-in-law. I honestly thought the gun was a 16 gauge. But as it turned out, I was very fortunate to luck into one of the scarce small frame 12 gauge Lefevers. It weighs a bit under 6 lb. 4 oz. Had I bought one of the typical 7 to 8 pounders, I might not have been so smitten, but that one started a 25 year love affair with Lefevers. In all that time, I have only bought one other 12 gauge Lefever gun that has the small frame, and surprisingly, it is an I Grade that weighs about 6 lb. 5 oz. These small frame 12 gauge guns do not have the XX stamp on the water table as seen on the 16 and 20 gauge guns.

Keith understood - Sounds quite nice.

Keith;
The engraving you describe does sound very E'ish. As noted above I do have two G grade guns with sear adjustment screws, one in the 20K range & the other 29K.
An FE @ #38,025 does not have the sear adjusters but has nickel plated triggers.It does have chain damascus barrels with an E stamped on them though the rest of the gun is pure F. It is my understanding that originally all grades had the sear adjusters but at some point they were dropped on all grades below an E. Not sure if any H's ever had them or not, none of mine do. My lowest no'd H however is in the mid 40K range.
The "Late" H grade I mentioned is a 6½ lb gun. It has a closer firing pin spacing than my other 12's but bar width is the same. My one & only 16 has the XX frame but still weighs 6 3/4lb. It has a narrower bar than any of my 12's, so while admitting not truly enough data I had sorta assumed the XX stamping represented this narrower bar on the frame. Firing pin spacing as well as width & height of the standing breech varied according to the weight of the barrels fitted.
When you refer to the small frame 12's are you meaning the size of the standing breech or also including the bar width? I do not have one but have heard of some 12's with XX frames.

Miller, sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but I've been working a ridiculous number of hours the last few weeks. I too have heard of 12 ga. guns being built on the XX frame, but have never seen one. Yesterday, I finally got the chance to take some measurements to answer your questions. I grabbed my FE 12 gauge SN 48xxx, along with 3 other 12 gauge Lefevers, and 3 on the XX frame, a 20 gauge and 2 16 gauge guns. The 12 gauge guns were H 27xxx, G 16255 (a two hook gun), and DS 60xxx. The 20 gauge was DS 64xxx, and the 16's were G 25xxx and a delightful straight gripped Damascus barreled GE 48xxx that is only 300 serial numbers apart from my very light 12 ga. FE.

It would be nice if I could attach a spreadsheet with all of my measurements and weights in neat rows and columns. Instead, I'll give you the numbers at various points on the action of the FE, and then give you the dimensions at the same points, in the same order, for the others.

The weight of the 12 ga. FE is 6lb.-3oz. The weight of the barrels is 2lb.-11oz- 28" long. The width of the breech (point A) is 2.271". The width of the bar at the very end of the flat just before the knuckle radius (point B) is 1.286". The width of the action flat was measured right behind where the cocking hook sticks up because the width of the flat seems to taper somewhat on most of the guns measured. On this FE, it (point C) was 1.595" The overall length of the bar from the standing breech to the front of the knuckle was tough to measure with a digital caliper, but was approximately 3.193" (point D). The thickness of the bar at point B (point Bx) is .848". The thickness of the action at point C (point Cx)is .865". The height of the standing breech (point SBH) was measured right across a firing pin and was 1.163". The width of the action just behind the breech balls (point E) was 1.560". The firing pin spacing (FPS)was 1.101".

The numbers for 12 ga. H 27xxx in the same order are: 7lb.-7oz. overall. 3 lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.289". Point B-1.420". Point C- 1.604". Point D- (approx.)3.192". Point Bx- .870". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.200". Point E- 1.555". and FPS was 1.108".

The numbers for G 16xxx, the two hook gun, were: 7lb.8oz. overall. 3lb.-10oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.268". Point B- 1.454". Point C 1.609". Point D- (approx.)3.193". Point Bx- .860". Point Cx- .866". Point SBH- 1.136". Point E- 1.550". and FPS was 1.122".

The numbers for 12 ga DS 60xxx were 7lb.12oz. overall. 3lb.-13oz. barrels- 30" long. Point A- 2.359". Point B- 1.320". Point C- 1.602". Point D- (approx.)3.194". Point Bx- .850". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.213". Point E- 1.575". And FPS was 1.165".

The numbers for the XX frame 20 ga. DS 64xxx were 6lb.-1oz. overall. 2lb.-11oz. barrels- 28" long. Point A- 2.080". Point B- 1.289". Point C- 1.535". Point D- (approx,)3.193". Point Bx- .845". Point Cx- .865". Point SBH- 1.056". Point E- 1.530". And FPS was 1.024".

XX frame 16 ga. G 25xxx was 6lb.-2oz. overall. 2lb.-10oz. barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.075". Point B- 1.253". Point C- 1.537". Point D- (approx.) 3.195". Point Bx- .840". Point Cx- .870". Point SBH- 1.059". Point E- 1,499". And FPS was 1.045".

XX frame 16 ga. GE 48xxx was 6lb.-3oz. overall. 2lb.-9oz. Damascus barrels 28" long. Point A- 2.105". Point B- 1.313". Point C- 1.540". Point D (approx.) 3.192". Point Bx- .848". Point Cx- .868". Point SBH- 1.086". Point E- 1.510". And FPS was 1.025".

Not surprisingly, most of the weight reduction in my 12 ga. FE was in the barrels which were nearly as light as those of the small frame 20 and 16 ga. guns. I was also not surprised to see that the breech width, standing breech height, and firing pin spacing were all smaller for the earlier two hook 12 ga. G grade than for the later 12 ga. guns. I've noticed this before in some earlier guns, and I think thicker barrels at the breech may have been a response to newer smokeless powders.

I guess I wasn't too surprised at the variability in dimensions between guns given that these guns had a lot of hand finishing versus the soul-less CNC cookie-cutter guns made today. My very light FE 12 ga. definitely has a frame that is smaller than the other 12's in most areas of measurement, but not in all areas. I found that strange. And I noted that the FE frame was actually a few thousandths smaller than the small XX frame guns in a couple points, yet it was the second widest at point E directly behind the breech balls. I actually expected more uniformity in this area because I tried a stock from a 12 ga DSE on another 16 ga. XX frame several years ago, and it fit almost perfectly. I probably should have omitted the approximate measurements for the overall length of the action bar since the Fowler Sylvac digital verniers I used weren't the best tool for the job. But it served to show that the hook (or compensating ball socket) to breech length is very close in all of the guns I measured. I hope to find the time to measure several others including that very light I grade I mentioned earlier, which is my second lightest 12 gauge Lefever at about 6lb.-4 or 5oz., as I recall. I'd like to measure a couple 10 gauge guns too.

"Miller, sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but I've been working a ridiculous number of hours the last few weeks. I too have heard of 12 ga. guns being built on the XX frame, but have never seen one".

For whatever it's worth, I did once own a 12-bore Lefever with the "XX" stamp on the frame. The gun was a G Grade extractor model with original (according to Buck Hamlin) 26" Damascus barrels, double triggers, and capped pistol grip stock with Lefever logo butt plate. The serial number was just under 19000; and although it featured the late large cocking hook mechanism, the gun was originally designed for an another cocking system as the frame featured what remained of the original joint check pin (pin heads visible on each side of frame but center section in frame milled away). The stock on this gun was of a much higher grade walnut than the typical "G"; and featured modern dimensions. I don't recall its weight, but it was very light; and I hunted with the gun quite a bit for a couple of years before Hal Jacques convinced me to sell him the gun. Hal sent the gun to Buck Hamlin for restoration (finishes only, balance of gun was excellent inside and out). I saw the gun afterwards and Buck had done his usual great job. Hal passed away a few years ago from cancer, and I believe he'd sold most of is Lefever collection prior to his passing. I've no idea who may own this gun now, but it is a very interesting piece; hopefully you'll remember this description and run across it some day.

Great discussion.
Beautiful Lefevers.